Margaret McDermott Bridge by Santiago Calatrava

[texasstar]

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Cool I was trespassing tonight and man there's so much potential for this area.

[DPatel304]

So is the pedestrian portion of the bridge still blocked off? Beautiful pictures!

[Tivo_Kenevil]

So is the pedestrian portion of the bridge still blocked off? Beautiful pictures!

Yep, I don't know what they're working on still. But there is literally no sidewalks that pedestrians can use to even walk up to the bridge. It's rather lame to be honest.

[dallasite1]

Give it time . I bet they put some in.

[dallasite1]

Texasstar Great shots as usual!!

[cowboyeagle05]

The city did approve of plans for the bridge connections to be built out from Beckley and River front side and lord knows the city hasn't released some press release about opening up the pedestrian and biking lanes. Whats going to be real fun is the rule about Bikes have to use one and pedestrians have to use the other. That won't last a day.

[soco]

Unless I've missed something, restricting bikes to one side and pedestrians to another is not accurate. The south arch and approaches are fully built out to accommodate both cyclists and pedestrians. Striping will separate bikes and peds on the ramps, and once on the bridge pedestrians will use the raised sidewalk and bikes will be in the lower two-way bike lane. The north arch is built to full width from levee to levee, but the approaches are not wide to accommodate both uses, like the south arch. Over time the approaches to the north arch can be rebuilt and made wider to accommodate both modes. To my knowledge there will not be anything to restrict use, but cyclists will likely use the south arch since it is designed for them.

[cowboyeagle05]

You missed something. Mostly on the Oak Cliff side in fact. One will have a ramp the other will have stairs. The line down the middle will be a separation between east and west bicycle traffic. The approaches on the Riverfront side will be what appears to be ramps so another confusing Dallas design.

Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 9.46.49 AM.png

Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 9.47.05 AM.png

[cowboyeagle05]

"...The bridge was designed to make crossing the bridge feel as low-stress as possible. “We specifically designed the pathways to provide a clear division between the cyclists and pedestrians,” says architect Santiago Calatrava. The bike path is more than 12 feet from the edge of the road, and the pedestrian path 23 feet away, with solid barriers in between. “This gives pedestrians a secure, protected, and comfortable environment in which to cross the river.”..."

https://www.fastcompany.com/3051339/in-car-addicted-dallas-a-new-bridge-is-actually-good-for-bikers

Some more discussion from the designer with language that could be interpreted in many ways.

[LongonBigD]

I can definitely see this being used by bikes, but I'm not convinced pedestrians will use it that much. Where would they be walking to? Large Marge/Continental is a more direct link to West Dallas action. Streetcar/Houston/Jefferson better connected to Bishop Arts and Jefferson St. Maybe a conflict in the future, but for now, this is a bike lane with a couple of walkers/joggers to dodge. And I'm good with that.

[cowboyeagle05]

Really the pedestrian/bike elements were just a tool used to get federal funding for the signature white arches they wanted to span the river. The Feds and the state weren't willing to shell out a bunch of extra money just so Dallas could slap Santiago Calatrava on another signature bridge. The only way the Trinity Trust could get something out of the Feds was to add alternative transportation to the project. Obama had funding initiatives in place to support the growth of biking, transit, and pedestrian transportation projects as part of the economic incentives after the 2008 recession. So they came up with the idea of slapping some fancy pedestrian/bike bridges on the sides to the cheaper and practical highway bridge the state planned to build to appease Federal officials handing out money. I don't think they ever really planned to have pedestrian amenities anywhere near any of these previously visioned bridges. It was an afterthought that we can build on.

As for where is it going well the city came up with a plan to build a Coombs creek trail so the west side would be connected to something besides empty sidewalks along Beckley. On the Riverfront side, the city and the county are building in dedicated bike tracks and wider sidewalks so I see it a logical connection that could go somewhere eventually. West Dallas will get pricer and more development will creep down Beckley near this bridge. Riverfront is also likely to see some interest eventually but I think the Beckley side will flip first for commuters who want a fast route into Downtown and a view of the skyline despite the super wide highway bridge they will stare at.

[soco]

You missed something. Mostly on the Oak Cliff side in fact. One will have a ramp the other will have stairs. The line down the middle will be a separation between east and west bicycle traffic. The approaches on the Riverfront side will be what appears to be ramps so another confusing Dallas design.
Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 9.46.49 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 9.47.05 AM.png

You are referencing an outdated schematic that does not match what is being built. The south bridge is being striped to accommodate both cyclists and pedestrians. I will concede that the north bridge is being striped pedestrian only, but unless something has changed, there is not a physical barrier preventing cyclists from accessing the bridge. The ramping structure has also changed for both bridges, and is even visible on updated images from Google Earth.

[soco]

Really the pedestrian/bike elements were just a tool used to get federal funding for the signature white arches they wanted to span the river. The Feds and the state weren't willing to shell out a bunch of extra money just so Dallas could slap Santiago Calatrava on another signature bridge. The only way the Trinity Trust could get something out of the Feds was to add alternative transportation to the project. Obama had funding initiatives in place to support the growth of biking, transit, and pedestrian transportation projects as part of the economic incentives after the 2008 recession. So they came up with the idea of slapping some fancy pedestrian/bike bridges on the sides to the cheaper and practical highway bridge the state planned to build to appease Federal officials handing out money. I don't think they ever really planned to have pedestrian amenities anywhere near any of these previously visioned bridges. It was an afterthought that we can build on.

As for where is it going well the city came up with a plan to build a Coombs creek trail so the west side would be connected to something besides empty sidewalks along Beckley. On the Riverfront side, the city and the county are building in dedicated bike tracks and wider sidewalks so I see it a logical connection that could go somewhere eventually. West Dallas will get pricer and more development will creep down Beckley near this bridge. Riverfront is also likely to see some interest eventually but I think the Beckley side will flip first for commuters who want a fast route into Downtown and a view of the skyline despite the super wide highway bridge they will stare at.

In addition to the Coombs Creek Trail extension, there will also be dedicated bike lanes on Beckley that will connect Kessler Park/N. Oak Cliff to the Margaret McDermott Bridge, planned bike lanes on Commerce (designs complete), and Trinity Groves. All these projects will not be complete at the same time, but there will be dedicated bike lanes along and across the Trinity corridor once they are complete. The Beckley bike lane plans are nearing 100% complete and are awaiting implementation in coordination with the Beckley/Commerce reconstruction project.

[cowboyeagle05]

You missed something. Mostly on the Oak Cliff side in fact. One will have a ramp the other will have stairs. The line down the middle will be a separation between east and west bicycle traffic. The approaches on the Riverfront side will be what appears to be ramps so another confusing Dallas design.
Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 9.46.49 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 9.47.05 AM.png

You are referencing an outdated schematic that does not match what is being built. The south bridge is being striped to accommodate both cyclists and pedestrians. I will concede that the north bridge is being striped pedestrian only, but unless something has changed, there is not a physical barrier preventing cyclists from accessing the bridge. The ramping structure has also changed for both bridges, and is even visible on updated images from Google Earth.

Interesting then I may be the one who missed something. I pulled my diagram from the last known update I could find presented to the council. I could not find any from last year for example which is frustrating, to say the least. I can not see updated imagery on my google maps am I missing something?

Screen Shot 2017-11-29 at 4.17.33 PM.png

[soco]

Google Earth Pro has imagery from earlier this year showing the ramps for both bridges under construction. On the north bridge, as the ramp descends to Beckley it wraps around and under the main lanes to reach grade, and connect to the ramp to the south bridge. The ramp to Riverfront is a gradual decline to street level. The ramps for the south bridge wrap under the main lanes on the Beckley side, and spiral down to meet Riverfront on the other side.

[cowboyeagle05]

I will take a look thank you. I'm glad they aren't wasting any more energy on trying to segregate traffic even if it was with good intentions. I almost get run over by bikes walking home in Uptown so I understand the need to provide safe spaces for both kinds of traffic but it's gonna be hard separating the traffic when people can easily walk around barriers and ignore signs.

[PonyUp13]

So these don't connect to the Trinity Skyline Trail at all?

[soco]

Connections are planned to the Skyline Trail, but I do not have timelines on when those connections will be put in place.

[mwaskow]

So much love goes to the Margarett Hunt Hill Bridge, but personally I like this bride a lot more. Speaking purely on aesthetics on the skyline of course, but if you watch any nationally televised Dallas sports game they feature pictures of large marge with the skyline in the background and never show this bridge. Does anyone else agree with me that this is a much more beautiful Calatrava design. I wonder what the 3rd bridge would have looked like. RIP.

[cowboyeagle05]

This one is more basic. It's like what you would design in kindergarten art class with popsicle sticks. I get the amount of engineering it has and the aesthetic of Calatrava is worth all this money...plus when you take into account good design is simple. I would assume the other bridge just has the right balance of complexity and simplicity for the camera flybys. Plus look at this one there are two arches and the rest is a standard highway bridge. As I will always say Dallas has its Double D's falsies even.

[DPatel304]

It also helps that you can get a great view of the MHH bridge and the Dallas skyline from Trinity Groves. I'm not aware of a similar vantage point for the McDermott bridge.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Maybe there's an affluent Dallasite named Margaret who will fund the third one.

[tamtagon]

Maybe there's an affluent Dallasite named Margaret who will fund the third one.

!! CROW !!

[jrd1964]

The next closest I know of is Ross Perot's wife, Margot. But then it would be "the 3 Marges" instead of "the 3 Maggies". Would have been something to have 3, all named for different Margarets... nowhere else in the world would have had that -- but at least there are 2 here, which still is nowhere else.

[dallaz]

Here’s the real reason why the bridge isn’t open yet. This is highly disappointing and very frustrating. It seem like this will be just another Dallas boondoggle!


Undisclosed Documents Reveal Flaws in Margaret McDermott Bridge, Preventing Opening

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dall ... g-10312451

Maybe more ballet than engineering. In early 2016, barely half a year after elaborate ceremonies celebrating the lifting into place of the final arch, the bridge began to crack up under the stress of high winds. Since then, it has been the focus of a bitter dispute, never disclosed to the City Council, among designers, project engineers, the construction company and members of the city manager’s staff who oversaw the project.

On March 22, 2016, a rod used to adjust one of the cables holding up the bridge’s pedestrian deck cracked when the cable was twisted and vibrated by wind. The next month, on April 13, another rod cracked. On April 30, a third failed.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

FAIL

[muncien]

So, maybe we just allow one or two bikes at a time... ?

[cowboyeagle05]

CANCEL THE TRINITY PROJECT. I am done waiting on the city or a privatized entity of the North Dallas elite making decisions that ALWAYS FAIL. The current Mayor endorsed this sort of behavior and previous councils did as well. I say spend what money that is left on repairs and call the whole thing off. At least we got the bridge park out of the deal.

[Matt777]

CANCEL THE TRINITY PROJECT. I am done waiting on the city or a privatized entity of the North Dallas elite making decisions that ALWAYS FAIL. The current Mayor endorsed this sort of behavior and previous councils did as well. I say spend what money that is left on repairs and call the whole thing off. At least we got the bridge park out of the deal.

Or simply just vote better people into office and increase citizen engagement.

We need this project to be completed and be spectacular if we expect to continue to attract and more importantly RETAIN a new generation of workers. Honestly the outdoor amenities in Austin are not that beautiful compared to other cities around the country that are more topographically blessed, but they exist and are large and attract talented millennials like flies to honey. And they stay. If we made the Trinity a giant outdoor natural parkland and continue to invest in trails and bike infrastructure than we could compete in the outdoor activity category.

[muncien]

The best way to get the public to care, is to make it visible to them. And the best way to do that is ridiculously simple... Pour the concrete for the bike paths and make them connect to existing network (Campion Trail North and South sections, Katy trail, Trinity Strand, Kessler Park, etc... Save the lakes, meander, and fancy stuff for later. Just get people down there, and then they will guide future development.
It's seriously simple, and not expensive...

[cowboyeagle05]

CANCEL THE TRINITY PROJECT. I am done waiting on the city or a privatized entity of the North Dallas elite making decisions that ALWAYS FAIL. The current Mayor endorsed this sort of behavior and previous councils did as well. I say spend what money that is left on repairs and call the whole thing off. At least we got the bridge park out of the deal.

Or simply just vote better people into office and increase citizen engagement.

We need this project to be completed and be spectacular if we expect to continue to attract and more importantly RETAIN a new generation of workers. Honestly the outdoor amenities in Austin are not that beautiful compared to other cities around the country that are more topographically blessed, but they exist and are large and attract talented millennials like flies to honey. And they stay. If we made the Trinity a giant outdoor natural parkland and continue to invest in trails and bike infrastructure than we could compete in the outdoor activity category.

We have been trying that since 1998 and looks where it got us. Most of the bond money spent, completed some of the environmental projects, some flood control projects but most of the vanity projects bridges, parks, lakes, trails amenities nada, multiple design charettes, enough concept renderings to fill the Dallas Museum of Art etc. Oh, we got that amazing golf course that's going to cure cancer and didn't ruin any of the surrounding land during its build. Going forward I will no longer support any initiative for the Trinity River beside leaving it alone. My vote is my own but my advice to anyone that asks will be to shy away from supporting any Trinity river initiative. I have no faith in City Hall except to screw it up and any privatized management we have now will be entirely self interest based. No more money should be wasted on the ditch and the people that claim to be able to "save" it.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Some of us have been saying that for 15+ years....

[mwaskow]

If you read the Steve Brown article with comments from Calatrava’s team it seems that the issues are a bit overstated and have been resolved by adding weighters to prevent the tension put on the cables by the wind. They claim things like this happen with such a large project and have/are being resolved. I much prefer having these arches as opposed to not. The drive in from Fort Worth certainly has some more pop to it and adds a wow factor. This is a little issue that will be resolved in a few months and we will never remember once the bridge opens. As for the trinity river park... what the hell is the city waiting on. We have committed bond money and private donations. Get to work!

[jrd1964]

Was the bridge built too quickly (thrown together)??

Mwaskow has a point: Has it not been *20 years* since the Trinity bond (as well as the more recent Simmons gift)? And all we have is the dangerous canoer's waterfall, a bike bridge at the Santa Fe crossing, the Margarets, the re-purposed Continental bridge, and the (shoulda been done *ages* ago) Sylvan bridge redo? Does an actual Trinity River park/lake(s)/whatever have to wait until I have grandkids or greatgrandkids? I hope not.

[cowboyeagle05]

The city has no money for the park at this point. The 50 million recent grant would have to pay for the new designs to be drawn up. What we see is what feels like the billionth watercolor done of the Trinity and they are not construction ready designs they are fictions meant to distract and hopefully encourage more donations. First, we would have to finish paying for the repairs to the bridge, the removal of the water rapids. While those projects are being completed we can try to raise the 100's of millions needed to build this Trinity Park of our dreams. The bond money from 98 bond election is mostly spent.

[tanzoak]

It could always be worse. The new $6.4 billion Bay Bridge already has cracks in it and will quite possibly need to be rebuilt after the next major earthquake.

[dallaz]

Here’s something I seen on Twitter. The photo appears to show cracks on the foundation of the arches. It could be water, but we haven’t had very heavy rain in a while.


https://mobile.twitter.com/wylie_h_dall ... 9979583488

[joshua.dodd]

Looks like water. But, that looks really bad.

[Tnexster]

There has been a "little" activity on the pedestrian bridges this week, not sure what it means but maybe some movement finally.

[jrd1964]

The namesake of the bridge, Margaret McDermott, has passed away. She was 106.

https://www.dallasnews.com/obituaries/o ... s-dies-106
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/edit ... las-better

[Tnexster]

Still see some work being done on the pedestrian bridges, probably the most I have seen in seven months. Maybe they are getting closer to opening them up.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Shame Margret couldn't see it open and completely done.

[cowboyeagle05]

Well, the city council is getting an update at this weeks meeting according to their agenda but the update is basically a summary of what we know which is the proposed fixes are under testing and there is no new news with no anticipated opening of the pedestrian bridges.

[tamtagon]

I cannot wait for the Crow family to honor that family's Margaret matriarch. The city certainly needs another matching suspension bridge, completing the mangled triptych; hopefully, though, the emphasis will be uniting the trail networks through the managed wilderness park.

[Tnexster]

I cannot wait for the Crow family to honor that family's Margaret matriarch. The city certainly needs another matching suspension bridge, completing the mangled triptych; hopefully, though, the emphasis will be uniting the trail networks through the managed wilderness park.

I always kind wondered why they didn't try to come up with some funding to do a pedestrian path along I-35, especially with the old Oak Farms property in play for some major redevelopment work and a connection to north Oak Cliff.

[jrd1964]

I guess since the I-35E redo across the Trinity is done, and the bridges on it are the typical concrete beams/columns, any possible suspension structure added later would be decorative, or could be like I-30's and hold up new pedestrian paths.

So how much needs to be raised to add suspension structures? And will someone approach Margaret Crow about naming, or would she want her name associated with it?

[cowboyeagle05]

Umm, when I accidentally got on I-35 south this weekend I saw what looked like a pedestrian stairway and guardrail headed across the bridge on the north side. Are we sure they didn't build that in just without the unnecessary arches? I only ask because Google Maps is not updated so I can not confirm what I thought I saw. I seem to remember a policy discussion about the Trinity project that all new bridges would include pedestrian amenities of some sort. The design and their integration into the surrounding pedestrian infrastructure is a different story however.

[Tnexster]

More blame, more delays as hike-and-bike side of Dallas' newest Calatrava bridge remains closed

Sounds like we paid a bunch of money for something that will never be safe to use.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dallas- ... ins-closed

[muncien]

These types of challenges are expected when doing something as revolutionary as building a bridge suspended by cables... oh, wait... Turns out this has been done hundreds, if not thousands of times.