DFW Airport

[Matt777]

That new (to me) artist's conception looking from the east shows how lame this new "terminal" really is.

One new (again, to me) fact in this article: The gates are only for narrow-bodies. No big planes allowed.

It's so bad. It's like they purposely went wayyy out of their way to make sure it had zero style, zero design, zero interest. It's so basic and sterile. It brings up memories of some of the specialized separate low cost carrier "terminals" built in some airports in Asia and Europe. Actually nevermind, most of those terminals look better than this turd trailer house masquerading as an airport terminal....

And this may end up being the most expensive terminal per square foot ever built in the USA. Just wow.

[CTroyMathis]

Ikea Airport Dwelling Unit.

[MC_ScattCat]

My guess this will be built to free up some gates at terminals A & D for widebodies to use and send the domestic terminal D stuff to this terminal or other gates.

I agree the CC stuff is more exciting and they are rebuilding the parking garages. The little lights over the spaces and the signs showing spaces available are really a wonderful improvement.

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

Work on DFW Airport’s sixth terminal could start as early as February
The airport’s governing board is set to approve a $914 million contract for Terminal F Thursday.


Good to see this activity moving quickly. DFW Airport is a really well run org.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... -february/

"“It’s probably the premier design-build construction project in the country that we’re going to see over the next few years,” said Raj Narayanan, DFW Airport board member and CEO and managing partner of Aerospace Quality Research and Development at the board committee meeting on Tuesday."
The premier design-build construction project in the country?? Mate, what renderings are you looking at??????? This is like the portable classroom version of an airport terminal.

[I45Tex]

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/ten ... 8&m=4&q=60

IMG_2556.jpeg

[rickbansal]

My guess this will be built to free up some gates at terminals A & D for widebodies to use and send the domestic terminal D stuff to this terminal or other gates.

Agree with this thought. Also, it may not be the sexiest of designs but it's likely to be the most functional for what is needed at this time. Recall that DFW is a major domestic and international hub. They need more gates to improve transit and if this get done faster via this current design then so be it.

[I45Tex]

And this may end up being the most expensive terminal per square foot ever built in the USA. Just wow.

Even though $2,720,000,000 of the project cost has nothing to do with Terminal F, I still don't see what will make a 15 gate concourse rack up $1,600,000,000+ in project costs. Might as well build a private rail link to Love Field and use that terminal for less money.

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

And this may end up being the most expensive terminal per square foot ever built in the USA. Just wow.

Even though $2,720,000,000 of the project cost has nothing to do with Terminal F, I still don't see what will make a 15 gate concourse rack up $1,600,000,000+ in project costs. Might as well build a private rail link to Love Field and use that terminal for less money.

It really makes no sense to me, what am I missing? I've stared at the renderings and feel like I'm losing my mind.
PGA's new headquarters cost 500 million. Universal is building a small theme park for 500 million. AT&T stadium cost 1.3 billion to build. Museum tower cost 200 million. Amli Fountain Place cost 150 million. I get there's inflation and all that, but yall telling me this squat rectangle with half of a skylink station requires a 914 million construction contract?

[Hannibal Lecter]

Also, it may not be the sexiest of designs but it's likely to be the most functional for what is needed at this time. Recall that DFW is a major domestic and international hub. They need more gates to improve transit and if this get done faster via this current design then so be it.

No terminal parking. No ticket counters. No baggage check. No security checkpoint. No baggage claim. One single-point-of-failure Skylink station to connect to all of the above.

Sorry, that doesn't translate to "most functional" in my book.

[rickbansal]

Also, it may not be the sexiest of designs but it's likely to be the most functional for what is needed at this time. Recall that DFW is a major domestic and international hub. They need more gates to improve transit and if this get done faster via this current design then so be it.

No terminal parking. No ticket counters. No baggage check. No security checkpoint. No baggage claim. One single-point-of-failure Skylink station to connect to all of the above.

Sorry, that doesn't translate to "most functional" in my book.

The regret is that it's being called a "terminal" as that implies all that you've listed above of which none (except Skylink station) will be available. I'm hopeful the DFW Airport leadership in concert with AA leadership know what is best for growth. I've been traveling from the airport since 1990 and the decisions made thus far have improved the airport.

[I45Tex]

Those two numbers I used were ones I read on the crankyflier's post about the new terminal last May; may not be up to date now, I realized too late.

[MC_ScattCat]

I don't know the costs or how they came up with their numbers, but working at an airport isn't cheap let alone the second busiest one in the world. I'm sure a large portion of the cost is going towards admin or logistics associated with airport construction.

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

Those two numbers I used were ones I read on the crankyflier's post about the new terminal last May; may not be up to date now, I realized too late.

You're good, those numbers are still accurate.
"In May, DFW Airport and American Airlines signed a deal for $4.8 billion in expansions, including $1.6 billion for the new terminal."
The 914 million portion of that 1.6 is the construction contract for the terminal building and skylink station, the rest of the 1.6 billion I'd imagine is for the miscellaneous infrastructure work around the terminal? I don't know how it hits 1.6, but 1.6 is what's set for Terminal F. And there's not even a parking garage component that could explain some of the cost.

It's especially confusing since they're using the modular construction method they've become a big fan of, of which the airport CEO says "That saves us 30% in time and it saves us almost 35% in cost."
So if this were built with traditional methods the rectangle would genuinely have cost the same as the new Texas Rangers stadium? The thing has a retractable roof on it!

[itsjrd1964]

Also, it may not be the sexiest of designs but it's likely to be the most functional for what is needed at this time. Recall that DFW is a major domestic and international hub. They need more gates to improve transit and if this get done faster via this current design then so be it.

No terminal parking. No ticket counters. No baggage check. No security checkpoint. No baggage claim. One single-point-of-failure Skylink station to connect to all of the above.

Sorry, that doesn't translate to "most functional" in my book.

So when someone flies out of F and needs a ticket counter, they have to go to another terminal first? When someone flies into F and needs to get their bag, they have to go to another terminal to find it? Functional?? Sounds like "F" stands for something else....

[I45Tex]

Large airports like Atlanta and Denver were designed to have midfield terminals that relatively few fliers will use to deplane to the city itself. They are for efficiently re-sorting different bundles of airside transfer passengers.

If this is what F is for, then it might have been wiser not to occupy such a prime frontage, and in fact I would have thought that these kinds of airside terminals could go perfectly on the far side of either the northern or southern pairs of cross-taxiways (unless a lot of international passengers were switching to their domestic final flights in F).

Yet if the airport authority figures there never will be demand for too many more terminal sites, then it makes sense not to add extra infrastructure extensions to reach a more distant F.

[Hannibal Lecter]

So when someone flies out of F and needs a ticket counter, they have to go to another terminal first?

Even if they don't need a ticket counter or to check a bag they still have to go through another terminal. No TSA checkpoint in F.

[Hannibal Lecter]

It's pretty obvious that F was designed specially to be inconvenient to local travelers. There's only one airline at DFW that has more than a trivial amount of connecting flights. That airline pays 85% of the bills, so they get what they want. And what they don't want is Southwest competing with them at DFW. So they build a new terminal which is absolutely useless to Southwest.

[rickbansal]

I wonder if the FIFA World Cup announcement on Sunday has any bearing on the new "terminal"?

[I45Tex]

With Spirit and JetBlue's merger now canceled, and Spirit and Frontier's merger canceled, if Alaska and Hawaiian's merger gets canceled there won't be too many remaining combinations that are possible for those airlines to scale up to try to compete against the Big Four.

JetBlue/Alaska, Allegiant/Alaska, or Frontier/Alaska would have coast-to-coast route maps that needed expansion in the DFW section of the country. I could see that as DFW's best chance to restore what we lost when Delta retrenched. As of December, 76% of passengers at ATL are for Delta, and 82.3% of passengers at DFW are for AA (down from 83.6% a year previous, which says that more of our recent passenger growth has been non-AA airlines).

https://www.dfwairport.com/business/about/stats/

[MC_ScattCat]

I don't see the govt. blocking the Hawaiian/Alaska merger. Hawaiian is relatively small and Hawaii is served by pretty much every airline already so there is plenty of competitors. Even Hawaiians long haul routes have competition from American, Delta, and United.

[flyswatter]

Hawaiian also does flying to Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand. Government would probably prefer to keep an american airline on those routes. Their flying to American Samoa is likely also heavy cargo and the island relies on it since no other passenger airline operates to it.

[Tnexster]

DFW Airport Terminal C renovations to start soon
More than 1M square feet will be renovated in massive project

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... 0#cxrecs_s

The massive rebuild of Terminal C at Dallas Fort Worth International Airport is beginning soon.
The airport on Tuesday shut down the C30 security checkpoint and nearby American Airlines check-in counters in anticipation of the construction starting, officials said. Security checkpoints and check-in counters at C21 and C10 will remain open.

Terminal C is the airport's busiest terminal, and a bulk of the renovation project will focus on the terminal's parking garages, which will be demolished and replaced by a six-story structure.

Back in October, the airport projected that work would begin around the third quarter of 2024 and continue through 2029. The renovation project is expected to increase the number of parking spaces in the terminal.

A total of 1.1 million square feet of space will be renovated as part of the project, and 32 new and rebuilt gates will be completed across three phases of construction.

[Matt777]

Fiji Airways has finally announced a 3x weekly DFW-NAN service starting in December:
https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/trav ... w-airport/

This brings the total number of foreign carriers at DFW to 17, matching Houston's 17 (unless you count Volaris and Volaris El Salvador as separate carriers, which is debatable).

Hopefully Air India announces their long awaited flight soon too.
I think other strong potentials include AA's fellow OneWorld members Cathay Pacific to Hong Kong and/or Royal Air Maroc to Casablanca for African and Middle East connections.
Starlux of Taiwan has also mentioned DFW as being on their target list.
We still lack a Star Alliance connection to East Asia, so I wonder if ANA, EVA, or Singapore have interest.

[itsjrd1964]

Fiji Airways has finally announced a 3x weekly DFW-NAN service starting in December:
https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/trav ... w-airport/

This brings the total number of foreign carriers at DFW to 17, matching Houston's 17 (unless you count Volaris and Volaris El Salvador as separate carriers, which is debatable).

Hopefully Air India announces their long awaited flight soon too.
I think other strong potentials include AA's fellow OneWorld members Cathay Pacific to Hong Kong and/or Royal Air Maroc to Casablanca for African and Middle East connections.
Starlux of Taiwan has also mentioned DFW as being on their target list.
We still lack a Star Alliance connection to East Asia, so I wonder if ANA, EVA, or Singapore have interest.

DFW will likely have to beef up foreign carrier availability ahead of the World Cup.

[Triggerman]

Fiji Airways has finally announced a 3x weekly DFW-NAN service starting in December:
https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/trav ... w-airport/

This brings the total number of foreign carriers at DFW to 17, matching Houston's 17 (unless you count Volaris and Volaris El Salvador as separate carriers, which is debatable).

Hopefully Air India announces their long awaited flight soon too.
I think other strong potentials include AA's fellow OneWorld members Cathay Pacific to Hong Kong and/or Royal Air Maroc to Casablanca for African and Middle East connections.
Starlux of Taiwan has also mentioned DFW as being on their target list.
We still lack a Star Alliance connection to East Asia, so I wonder if ANA, EVA, or Singapore have interest.

I was hoping for almost the same scenario: CX starting HKG since they're buying A330neo's and RAM starting even a seasonal CMN/Casablanca-DFW which will be DFW's 1st flight to Africa and its 6th continent although its a pipe dream for now due to low to nonexistent demand. If only AA will just let Icelandair and Cayman Air come back and leave them alone.

In addition to Starlux mentioning DFW, I read somewhere that Copa mentioned a DFW- Panama City flight.

[Matt777]

Singapore Airlines is dropping Houston in April, which was served as Singapore-Manchester-Houston. DFW will soon be ahead of Houston IAH in number of foreign air carriers, 17 for DFW and 16 for IAH (if you don’t count Volaris and Volaris El Salvador as separate carriers).

[MC_ScattCat]

I'm a little surprised Cathay or China Southern don't fly here yet. Pre-Covid the American DFW-HKG route always was busy. I know Cathay has had some issues that were not really in their control, but the Pearl River Delta seems like an obvious hole missing in the DFW destinations map.

[dfwcre8tive]

As part of DFW's anniversary they wanted to create a post about the Airtrans system. Instead I worked with them to develop a short documentary which was recently shared.

DFW Airport's Airtrans: A Ride Through History
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-doEnpgAk&t=16s

Documenting the system has been a preservation effort of mine as the only remaining vehicle is located in Frisco at the Museum of the American Railroad (Frontiers of Flight and others have scrapped theirs).

[Tnexster]

Gosh I had forgotten about those.

[Tucy I]

Why was it eliminated?

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

As part of DFW's anniversary they wanted to create a post about the Airtrans system. Instead I worked with them to develop a short documentary which was recently shared.

DFW Airport's Airtrans: A Ride Through History
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-doEnpgAk&t=16s

Documenting the system has been a preservation effort of mine as the only remaining vehicle is located in Frisco at the Museum of the American Railroad (Frontiers of Flight and others have scrapped theirs).

This is great! Awesome work. But wow I had no idea there was a station structure still standing, where exactly is that at the end of the video? I never got to ride the Airtrans system so I don't have a mental map of where exactly it picked up and dropped people off.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Employee parking lots.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9160161 ... ?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8791352 ... ?entry=ttu (I parked next to this one the other day)
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8820923 ... ?entry=ttu

Streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.882059, ... &entry=ttu

There *might* also be one left downstairs in Terminal C.

[dfwcre8tive]

^ Employee parking lots.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9160161 ... ?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8791352 ... ?entry=ttu (I parked next to this one the other day)
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8820923 ... ?entry=ttu

Streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.882059, ... &entry=ttu

There *might* also be one left downstairs in Terminal C.

The station in the video is the old 5E North station you shared.

There are still lots of old signs and guideway left in older areas of the airport. As the terminals are renovated they disappear. Our curiosity (that we could not confirm) is if any of the old freight stations are left in airside C. Most of the buildings in the old Transportation Center are used by valet or parking services.

[dfwcre8tive]

As part of DFW's anniversary they wanted to create a post about the Airtrans system. Instead I worked with them to develop a short documentary which was recently shared.

DFW Airport's Airtrans: A Ride Through History
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf-doEnpgAk&t=16s

Documenting the system has been a preservation effort of mine as the only remaining vehicle is located in Frisco at the Museum of the American Railroad (Frontiers of Flight and others have scrapped theirs).

This is great! Awesome work. But wow I had no idea there was a station structure still standing, where exactly is that at the end of the video? I never got to ride the Airtrans system so I don't have a mental map of where exactly it picked up and dropped people off.

I have a much larger collection of images, but these should give you an idea of the scope and destinations. There were set routes that could programed for different users. Posting a map for reference.

https://flic.kr/s/aHsjqJHHN8

Original:
- Terminal Land-side passenger stations (2W, 2E, 3E, 4E)
- Terminal Air-side freight stations (2W, 2E, 3E, 4E)
- Terminal Air-side employee stations( 2W, 2E, 3E, 4E)
- Hotel station along international Parkway (connected via skybridge to the hotels)
- North Employee Parking (1W), 2 stations
- South Empolyee Parking (5E), 2 stations
- Transportation Center (Freight Station, Supply Depot, Post Office, Trash)

4710281427_91b1f50c1d_h.jpg

4710910490_ce3beae30c_k.jpg

This was modified over time when freight was eliminated and TrAAin (AA's air-side connector route) was developed and a bypass station at Terminal B was built. That station still exists and was the last station to be added. Map: https://maps.app.goo.gl/zD2PApYZLDEATynUA

7785167934_6b73853096_k.jpg

[dfwcre8tive]

Why was it eliminated?

Skylink, which Alstom operates and maintains under a 10-year contract. When Skylink opened it wasn't practical to keep Airtrans, which was operated in-house by a team of engineers; at that point they were having to fabricate pieces in-house to extend the life of a complex aging system. Some of the Airtrans engineers -- including the two interviewed in the video -- moved over to Skylink under Alstom. They mentioned that working with the team that kept Airtrans running all those years was the most challenging but best job they ever had. There were some interesting stories.

https://www.airport-technology.com/news ... e/?cf-view

[Tucy I]

Why was it eliminated?

Skylink, which Alstom operates and maintains under a 10-year contract. When Skylink opened it wasn't practical to keep Airtrans, which was operated in-house by a team of engineers; at that point they were having to fabricate pieces in-house to extend the life of a complex aging system. Some of the Airtrans engineers -- including the two interviewed in the video -- moved over to Skylink under Alstom. They mentioned that working with the team that kept Airtrans running all those years was the most challenging but best job they ever had. There were some interesting stories.

https://www.airport-technology.com/news ... e/?cf-view

But Skylink serves a different purpose (inside security connections between terminals) than AirTrans (outside security connections between terminals plus remote parking)

[DauntlessDash]

But Skylink serves a different purpose (inside security connections between terminals) than AirTrans (outside security connections between terminals plus remote parking)

They do not share all the same goals but their primary purpose is the same: moving people between terminals.

I agree it would be nice to have some sort of transport besides shuttles for travelling outside the secure area. However, I can see how it would be a lot of overhead to run two separate systems. The vast majority of people travelling between terminals can just enter into the secure area and then take Skylink.

I think the only way you could reasonably get some sort of train outside the secure area would be to extend the DART/TexRail lines so that there are multiple train stations for each terminal. Which would also have the extended benefit of making it easier to take the train to the airport.

[DauntlessDash]

I think the only way you could reasonably get some sort of train outside the secure area would be to extend the DART/TexRail lines so that there are multiple train stations for each terminal. Which would also have the extended benefit of making it easier to take the train to the airport.

Something like this. Maybe with the TexRail and DART trains going in opposite loops through.

airportloop.png

[longhorn]

^ Employee parking lots.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9160161 ... ?entry=ttu
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8791352 ... ?entry=ttu (I parked next to this one the other day)
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8820923 ... ?entry=ttu

Streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.882059, ... &entry=ttu

There *might* also be one left downstairs in Terminal C.

The station in the video is the old 5E North station you shared.

There are still lots of old signs and guideway left in older areas of the airport. As the terminals are renovated they disappear. Our curiosity (that we could not confirm) is if any of the old freight stations are left in airside C. Most of the buildings in the old Transportation Center are used by valet or parking services.

I was wondering when the old Airtran right of way will be removed. lots of old trackage or guideways left.

[MC_ScattCat]

It's possible when they redo the International Parkway? I know they've been relocating/upgrading the utilities. I also believe they're getting rid of the left hand exits as well.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Yup, including removing the left-hand exits.

https://www.dfwairport.com/business/abo ... ayproject/

https://downloads.ctfassets.net/m2p70vm ... ra_Mod.pdf

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

Whoah, I had no idea they were getting rid of the left-hand exits, that's great. It's definitely a source of confusion for some folks.

[Triggerman]

BA to down gauge DFW from A380 to 777-200ER on March 30,2025. The BA A380 will be pulled temporarily on 11/1/2024 to 12/31/2024 and will be shifted to Miami, the whale will be replaced with a 787-10. On March 30th, the permanent downgauge will commence with a steep 50% less business and total seats to a 777-200. I'm glad I was able to fly with BA's superjumbo to LHR 2 years ag

https://simpleflying.com/british-airway ... xt-summer/