Dallas - Fort Worth high-speed rail project

[Tucy I]

"SECTION 1. That, at this time, except for streetcar expansion projects currently under
consideration, City Council does not support construction of any aboveground rail lines
through the Downtown, Uptown, and Victory Park areas of Dallas.
SECTION 2. That many large projects are underway in the city and, except for streetcar
expansion projects currently under consideration, City Council is prioritizing
redevelopment of the Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center and the needs of Fair
Park and other historically significant parks and residential neighborhoods ahead of any
construction of new aboveground rail lines through the Downtown, Uptown, and
Victory Park areas of Dallas.
SECTION 3. That City Council commits to revisit the Dallas to Fort Worth high speed rail
discussion after it recieves the economic impact study requested by City Council at the
March 6, 2024 City Council briefing."

okay. lol. You could have just waited for that economic impact study?

Won't someone think of poor little Hunt Realty?! They had been waiting on their hands patiently like a good developer for the undoubtedly assured financial windfall that a new convention center would someday bring this bizarre corner lot, but now one elevated track comparable only to the great ice wall of Westeros is threatening to ruin all of downtown.

It's frustrating because obviously the more desirable land will be on the other side of the future convention center where all the newly opened up land is going to be. So, all this "concern" threatening to stop a Fort Worth connection stems from a Reunion lot that will still be in the neglected corner of everything when this all shakes out, a lot that will still require a pedestrian bridge to cross the half dozen train tracks already there in order to reach.

No amount of blue-sky renderings will change the fact that the face of the new convention center will be directed away from this area, and people's instinctive pedestrian impulse will be to go towards downtown in the direction of where they see activity: the dart station, the memorial auditorium, and all the retail that will be around the new pedestrian mall. I think there is plenty of effective work that could be done with the Reunion lot, none of which has ever been dependent on a new convention center happening, and none of which is inherently hampered by a meager elevated train track.

Anyways, I half expect the economic impact study to come back suggesting it would be economically stupid not to make an aboveground connection to Fort Worth and for city council to disregard it anyways.

Good post, but LOL at “all the retail that will be around the new pedestrian mall”. Speaking of blue-sky renderings…

And, as to economic impact studies, it's hard to imagine how any legitimate economic impact study of this project will suggest HSR between D and FW makes any economic sense whatsoever, unless of course, they completely ignore the cost.

[OrangeMike]

What am I missing to make this make sense? I still have not heard from anyone here or in the general public discussion any good reason why there *MUST* be a HSR connection to Fort Worth.

Everyone cheerleading for it on this forum seems to be unquestioningly accepting Michael Morris’s argument that this “one-seat trip” simply has to be done because some past Dallas City Council pinky promised that it would. Why do Tarrant County residents require a single-seat HSR trip to Houston? Are they too obese to move from a cushioned seat once they plop their fat asses down? Are they too ignorant of modern transit to transfer from one train to another at a stop along the way to their destination? Why must Dallas accommodate their convenience at its expense?

Michael Morris lied for decades about how a tollroad inside the Trinity levees was absolutely necessary before any of the Mixmaster reconstruction could take place. Countless years and hundreds of thousands of dollars were wasted on that bullshit. And now you unquestioningly believe him that this HSR spur absolutely must happen? Half of this route is supposed to be in what would likely be the longest train tunnel in North America spanning halfway across Tarrant County. What is the justification for that type of logistical complexity and unnecessary expense across relatively flat and open terrain? There is none. Now that the Trinity Tollroad is dead, HSR to Fort Worth is simply the replacement boondoggle to keep the consulting cash flowing to NTCOG.

There is already a train to Fort Worth from Downtown Dallas, the TRE. Upgrade that line at a fraction of the cost and end up with a practical, realistic, less expensive solution instead of an unnecessary tiny spur to an already planned, separate project that might shave a few minutes off a 30-mile trip. Tarrant County travelers would have to get up and move to another train in Dallas, where they might even spend some money at "all the retail" that will be around the new HSR station even when it's the end of the high-speed line. Decades from now if there *ever* is an HSR line replacing Amtrak through Fort Worth, worry about new connections to Dallas then.

[The_Overdog]

IMO: it's totally not necessary from a technical/actual perspective. But it is necessary from a political and legal perspective. The original HSR line ran into too many legal problems trying for their first line to Houston. A line to Ft Worth will give progress, show it's an actual railroad, and make a lot of those legal and operational political problems diminish. Is it wasteful? Yes, but politics is not about what is best or most efficient, it's about what is popular enough with a large enough set of backers to get sold and pushed through. Can Dallas do it without Ft Worth? The previous 10 years says no, but maybe with some Amtrak backing maybe. Who knows.

[OrangeMike]

it's totally not necessary from a technical/actual perspective. But it is necessary from a political and legal perspective.

I would disagree about the necessity of a Fort Worth spur to show it's an actual railroad from a legal perspective. The existing entities had their right to use eminent domain upheld by the Texas Supreme Court in 2022 because the court said they are "interurban electric railway companies" and therefore it did not have to rule whether they are also "railroad companies" (that could also use eminent domain). Amtrak is making plans to partner on the Dallas to Houston line and is already a railroad company. The legal basis of their existence and purpose has been settled.

Not technically or actually necessary but necessary politically, however, to appease people like the NCTCOG? That's exactly the same as the thankfully dead Trinity Tollroad and should meet the same fate.

[mhainli]

it's totally not necessary from a technical/actual perspective. But it is necessary from a political and legal perspective.

I would disagree about the necessity of a Fort Worth spur to show it's an actual railroad from a legal perspective. The existing entities had their right to use eminent domain upheld by the Texas Supreme Court in 2022 because the court said they are "interurban electric railway companies" and therefore it did not have to rule whether they are also "railroad companies" (that could also use eminent domain). Amtrak is making plans to partner on the Dallas to Houston line and is already a railroad company. The legal basis of their existence and purpose has been settled.

Not technically or actually necessary but necessary politically, however, to appease people like the NCTCOG? That's exactly the same as the thankfully dead Trinity Tollroad and should meet the same fate.

I was originally against the Dallas to Fort Worth line because I thought it would unnecessarily complicate the Dallas to Houston line, but now I’m for it. IMO It’s the best chance for Dallas to Houston line which is on life support despite (and perhaps because of) recent Amtrak involvement. Main reason to support D-FW (along with encouraging discussions of future connections to Austin, San Antonio) is to help overall statewide political support that was drying up on the Dallas Houston line. The governor all but withdrew support and many in the conservative legislature started opposing it. Dallas and Houston interests will never win against rural opposition and other urban area apathy/opposition in the Legislature. Having the federal Amtrak involvement may actually hurt the politics with Republican Leg and Gov, but maybe help on the financial side. There are certainly financial hurdles to all of it. The whole thing is iffy at best. But if the selling point becomes building a statewide system over the next 30-40 years then the overall chances will be better (still not 50-50) for the initial Dallas Houston line. And I do think IF done right DFW would benefit Dallas above all other cities and Hunt finally gets a reason to build more than a hotel and a few apartment complexes.

[electricron]

I was originally against the Dallas to Fort Worth line because I thought it would unnecessarily complicate the Dallas to Houston line. Now am for it because IMO It’s the best chance for Dallas to Houston which is on life support despite (and perhaps because of) recent Amtrak involvement. Main reason to support D-FW is to help (along with discussions of future connections to Austin, San Antonio) generate more statewide political support that was drying up on the Dallas Houston line. The governor all but withdrew support and many in the conservative legislature started opposing it. Dallas and Houston interests will never win against rural opposition and other urban area apathy/opposition. Having the federal Amtrak involvement may actually hurt with the red leg and Gov on the political side, maybe helps on the financial side. There are certainly financial hurdles to all of it. It’s iffy at best. But if the selling point becomes a statewide system over the next 30-40 years then the overall chances will be better for the initial Dallas Houston line.

Yes, but spending as much money through the urban Dallas and Fort Worth metroplex as extending the HSR between Houston and San Antonio/Austin seems foolish. If anything, the last leg of a triangle HSR system should be the Dallas to Fort Worth leg.
Connect the various metropolitans before connecting cities within them. Fort Worth to Dallas are al;ready connected by trains three ways, and soon a fourth without HSR. Amtrak, TRE, Orange line + TexRail, Silver line + TexRail. Do we really need a fourth before interconnecting the metros?

[mhainli]

I was originally against the Dallas to Fort Worth line because I thought it would unnecessarily complicate the Dallas to Houston line. Now am for it because IMO It’s the best chance for Dallas to Houston which is on life support despite (and perhaps because of) recent Amtrak involvement. Main reason to support D-FW is to help (along with discussions of future connections to Austin, San Antonio) generate more statewide political support that was drying up on the Dallas Houston line. The governor all but withdrew support and many in the conservative legislature started opposing it. Dallas and Houston interests will never win against rural opposition and other urban area apathy/opposition. Having the federal Amtrak involvement may actually hurt with the red leg and Gov on the political side, maybe helps on the financial side. There are certainly financial hurdles to all of it. It’s iffy at best. But if the selling point becomes a statewide system over the next 30-40 years then the overall chances will be better for the initial Dallas Houston line.

Yes, but spending as much money through the urban Dallas and Fort Worth metroplex as extending the HSR between Houston and San Antonio/Austin seems foolish. If anything, the last leg of a triangle HSR system should be the Dallas to Fort Worth leg.
Connect the various metropolitans before connecting cities within them. Fort Worth to Dallas are al;ready connected by trains three ways, and soon a fourth without HSR. Amtrak, TRE, Orange line + TexRail, Silver line + TexRail. Do we really need a fourth before interconnecting the metros?

Agree, the current proposal for Dallas to Fort Worth leg is outrageously expensive and logically would be done last or with another connection to Austin, etc. This can all be vetted over time and not sure why the city needs make any final decisions yet. Keep it alive and work to make it better and cheaper. Maybe there’s a consensus out there. Maybe Hunt will see the light and dream up a development scenario that completely hides the HSR line with pretty buildings.

Other questions I have about the challenges of the DFW line:
Why does it need to be underground in Arlington?
Why is the current approved HSR station 7 stories high?
Why can’t small adjustments to the station be made and resubmitted for Environmental approval? Seems like there’s time for this…

[dzh]

Elevated (or at least partially elevated) high speed rail lines run through the center of Japanese cities and no ones seems to mind at all. Mind you they aren't 20 stories elevated, but they still cut through Tokyo and Osaka and they don't seem to detract from the existing dense real estate around it.

Personally I don't think there needs to be an underground station anywhere on this Fort Worth to Dallas route (but if they must build it underground in Fort Worth, then I think they should build it underground in Dallas too).

Personally, I would much rather prefer a train that gets you from Downtown Dallas to DFW in 10 mins. That would be a way better use of money in my opinion. Something akin to the Heathrow Express in London.

[mhainli]

I like Downtown Dallas to DFW in 10 minutes, DFW to Fort Worth in another 10. Wonder if this was considered?

[OrangeMike]

Two different takes on the latest developments:

Elevated High-Speed Rail Through Downtown Dallas Appears Dead
https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... ears-dead/

‘Not a unilateral decision’: North Texas leaders vow to work together on high-speed rail plan
https://fortworthreport.org/2024/06/13/ ... rail-plan/

I continue to be gobsmacked by the sense of entitlement from Fort Worth, Arlington, and Michael Morris at NCTCOG. There’s no reason why it has to be underground through Tarrant County except for aesthetics. There’s no use case being presented for an extension to Tarrant County at all except that they need the new train, too, just in case some other lines get built sometime in the future.

“If you look at high-speed rail in the rest of the world, this isn’t just about Dallas to Houston and Dallas to Fort Worth,” Morris said back in March. “It’s Fort Worth, then does it go to Denver? Does it go to Oklahoma City? Where do we go west of Dallas to a national network?”

If the Dallas-to-Houston HSR really is going to continue to OKC or Denver, then let's route it up 35-E to Denton so it's moving in the right direction. Fort Worth can build a leg back down 35-W. It all reeks of Springfield jealousy that Shelbyville might get a monorail with Michael Morris being just as much of a huckster as Lyle Lanley.

Monorail: A Key Urban Lesson from The Simpsons
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/201 ... e-simpsons

[dzh]

Does anyone have any background on Michael Morris? Does he harbor some weird grudge with Dallas/is he being paid off by lobbyists who want Fort Worth to also be transit hub? Just something feels off about his obstinance.

[OrangeMike]

Does anyone have any background on Michael Morris? Does he harbor some weird grudge with Dallas/is he being paid off by lobbyists who want Fort Worth to also be transit hub? Just something feels off about his obstinance.

He’s a retirement-age boomer still promulgating outmoded notions of regional mobility. This D Magazine article from 2019 is a good place to start. It profiles how he and the former head of DART had outsized influence in promoting suburban sprawl.
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... of-sprawl/

Morris once championed running a highway through North Dallas, an idea that evolved into a vision for a billion-dollar tunnel project under Northwest Highway. He carried water for the Trinity toll road even after the project was shown not to relieve traffic congestion. And when local business and community leaders came together around a proposal to turn the elevated downtown highway I-345 into a boulevard, thus stitching back together downtown and Deep Ellum, Morris took to the op-ed page of the Dallas Morning News, arrogantly deriding the plan and going so far as to tacitly suggest its backers were elitist racists (which he later apologized for). He talks about bikes and public transit, but the vanity license plate on his Volvo sedan reads “IH 35E.”

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Putting under NW Highway was fantastic. Too bad it didn't go anywhere. It was preceded by a private group that wanted to tunnel under Mockingbird from 75 to 183 with an entrance/exit at Love Field, but HP residents who didn't want a tunnel 100 feet under their house killed it -- even though it would have dramatically reduced through traffic on Mockingbird.

Tell me which "local business and community leaders" supported converting I-345 to a boulevard. There weren't any. Just the Village Idiot Patrick Kennedy, his minions and some developers in the suburbs dreaming of their windfall when Dallas cut off downtown from the world. Sure, even now there are some politicians who say the idea needs more study. But no one of any importance is pushing for it.

[dzh]

Does anyone have any background on Michael Morris? Does he harbor some weird grudge with Dallas/is he being paid off by lobbyists who want Fort Worth to also be transit hub? Just something feels off about his obstinance.

He’s a retirement-age boomer still promulgating outmoded notions of regional mobility. This D Magazine article from 2019 is a good place to start. It profiles how he and the former head of DART had outsized influence in promoting suburban sprawl.
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... of-sprawl/

Morris once championed running a highway through North Dallas, an idea that evolved into a vision for a billion-dollar tunnel project under Northwest Highway. He carried water for the Trinity toll road even after the project was shown not to relieve traffic congestion. And when local business and community leaders came together around a proposal to turn the elevated downtown highway I-345 into a boulevard, thus stitching back together downtown and Deep Ellum, Morris took to the op-ed page of the Dallas Morning News, arrogantly deriding the plan and going so far as to tacitly suggest its backers were elitist racists (which he later apologized for). He talks about bikes and public transit, but the vanity license plate on his Volvo sedan reads “IH 35E.”

So why would Morris continue to champion these ideas if the data from the studies continue to show that these projects would not relieve congestion? Like I'm not accusing him of anything, but from afar, I would guess something fishy is going on. Like lobbyists paying him off.

[dzh]

^ Putting under NW Highway was fantastic. Too bad it didn't go anywhere. It was preceded by a private group that wanted to tunnel under Mockingbird from 75 to 183 with an entrance/exit at Love Field, but HP residents who didn't want a tunnel 100 feet under their house killed it -- even though it would have dramatically reduced through traffic on Mockingbird.

Tell me which "local business and community leaders" supported converting I-345 to a boulevard. There weren't any. Just the Village Idiot Patrick Kennedy, his minions and some developers in the suburbs dreaming of their windfall when Dallas cut off downtown from the world. Sure, even now there are some politicians who say the idea needs more study. But no one of any importance is pushing for it.

I actually agree that putting Northwest HWY underground would've been great. They could've also put a real DART Line down there too (and not just one of our janky LRT lines too)...shame that didn't come to fruition 20 years ago. (I know you love how much I believe in rail transit Hannibal )

Hannibal, that is so not true about only Patrick Kennedy supporting I-345's removal. Downtown Dallas Inc. (Jennifer Scripps) supported I-345's removal. Lyn McBee supported its removal (albeit she has never been a council member, just a civic leader). The DMN supported its removal, and there were plenty of other business leader's that supported its removal, particularly in the real estate development community (albeit the supporters we're more private than public however due to not wanting to wade into something so politically sensitive).

Hannibal, even though we disagree on a lot of things, I actually really enjoy reading your perspectives on things. It's nice being able to learn what the other side thinks and why they think it. What would be your ideal Dallas infrastructure network if you could design one yourself?

[Tnexster]

Proposed high-speed rail line may loop around downtown Dallas amid City Council opposition
A new proposed route for the Dallas-to-Fort Worth line shows the train no longer running through downtown.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic ... pposition/

A new concept sent to the 45-member transportation council June 28 and obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows the rail line going behind the redevelopment project and over Interstate 35E on its way to Arlington and Fort Worth.

Proposed routes shown to Dallas City Council members in March had the overhead rail line running between the new convention center and the redevelopment project. The council voted in June to formally oppose any new above-ground high-speed rail routes through the downtown area.

[quixomniac]

Proposed high-speed rail line may loop around downtown Dallas amid City Council opposition
A new proposed route for the Dallas-to-Fort Worth line shows the train no longer running through downtown.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic ... pposition/

A new concept sent to the 45-member transportation council June 28 and obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows the rail line going behind the redevelopment project and over Interstate 35E on its way to Arlington and Fort Worth.

Proposed routes shown to Dallas City Council members in March had the overhead rail line running between the new convention center and the redevelopment project. The council voted in June to formally oppose any new above-ground high-speed rail routes through the downtown area.

Cant say for sure behind the paywall, but i think these are the concepts they are referring to:

IMG_4542.png

found in this document: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... dallas.pdf

Which is kind of frustrating, because it makes the project more difficult and expensive, to build ONTOP of a highway , just so some wealthy land owner can pretend their reunion plots aren’t ALREADY choked off from downtown by rail and highways.

Which in of itself is frustrating, because this high speed train station SHOULD have been built right next to union station, but im sure they got greedy and their asking price was too high or so narrowminded they can’t possibly imagine the development opportunities of having a station on your development.

Dont get me started with people still parroting that the high speed rail is gonna destroy Reunion Tower.
The propaganda on that is so blatant and obvious

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

I want to come in here with a personal anecdote to draw a little comparison that I feel is apt with regards to what value I see in a FTW-DAL HSR line. I know folks are skeptical since the TRE exists.
Humor me.

In the 2010s I frequently traveled to Tokyo, and in Tokyo there are two primary airports: Haneda and Narita International Airport. You can think of them as Love Field and DFW; Haneda is in the city and much closer to everything, while Narita is the far more distant airport. I always flew into Narita.

Now, to get from Narita to Tokyo is roughly equivalent to the same distance that separates Fort Worth and Dallas (the two satellite views in the image below are to-scale with each other, taken from the same altitude).

To travel between Narita and Tokyo by train you have two primary options: the Keisei Main Line or the Keisei Skyliner. The Main Line is a local train serving multiple stops along the way. It will get you there, but it takes 70 minutes. Costs about $7 and is the sort of traditional urban train you're imagining.
The Keisei Skyliner on the other hand is the premium express option with reserved seating and much faster rolling stock. It runs a very separate route which happens to allow for a stop in the middle not serviced on the main line. It gets you back and forth in 40 minutes--thirty minutes quicker than the main line and twenty minutes faster than driving.

skyliner1.jpg

I wrote in this image that the skyliner ticket is $17, but before the yen/usd collapsed this was much closer to $28 USD. And let me tell you, I picked it nearly every time. To shave 30 minutes off the travel time into the city was 100% worth it. And I'm not rich! I bummed it in Tokyo hostels for fifteen bucks a night and flew there on standby during time off from work (much easier to fly standby back then). But I never regretted spending extra on the express route into the city because the whole point was to get from A to B, not waste time in between.

Out of necessity I have indeed taken the main line into Tokyo once and it is miserably slow. Like, psychologically painful lol. The next time I faced that situation I opted to take an express bus into the city instead because it was ten minutes quicker. Driving/Taxiing is just quicker when your goal is to get from end-to-end. The Trinity Railway Express is great for providing local service along its line (which is how most riders use it), but as the Fort Worth - Dallas rail route it's a slog that doesn't come close to competing with driving that same distance.

This comparison isn't 1:1 of course, the Keisei Skyliner is not true HSR (it's more akin to the Brightline service in terms of speed), and Fort Worth is not an airport.
But we're still talking about two big end-to-end travel points with high back and forth traffic; they are serviced by two separate routes that don't overlap, the express is more expensive, and the express route adds a stop in the middle not serviced by the other. I think the comparison is worthwhile.

Also yes, Tokyo is hugely populated, but this express route exists as and is primarily used as a link to Narita airport, so I think it's worthwhile to bring up the fact that Narita does not even crack the top 50 busiest airports in the world--yet a separate express rail line just to link it to the city can still be justified despite its companion Tokyo airport, Haneda, ranking 5th and is the primarily used airport for the region. I don't think it's super outlandish to suggest linking two major cities in a similarly direct way could be successful, especially as the those cities continue to improve their downtown areas.

I see value in this route even if it's all that gets built. I think making it HSR (rather than Brightline-esque) in order to carry-through with a Dallas-Houston route adds to the overall viability of both legs, and adding a stop in Arlington is a huge bonus not possible with a double-tracked TRE. Besides, putting it along the TRE corridor would also limit its speed.
If you create a rail connection between two points that doesn't merely mirror driving but blows it out of the water people will want to use it. And in this future the TRE will always have its place for its current and future riders as TOD gets planned around its many stations, but as a direct link between Dallas and Fort Worth we should do much better.

[quixomniac]

I want to come in here with a personal anecdote to draw a little comparison that I feel is apt with regards to what value I see in a FTW-DAL HSR line. I know folks are skeptical since the TRE exists.
Humor me.

In the 2010s I frequently traveled to Tokyo, and in Tokyo there are two primary airports: Haneda and Narita International Airport. You can think of them as Love Field and DFW; Haneda is in the city and much closer to everything, while Narita is the far more distant airport. I always flew into Narita.

Now, to get from Narita to Tokyo is roughly equivalent to the same distance that separates Fort Worth and Dallas (the two satellite views in the image below are to-scale with each other, taken from the same altitude).

To travel between Narita and Tokyo by train you have two primary options: the Keisei Main Line or the Keisei Skyliner. The Main Line is a local train serving multiple stops along the way. It will get you there, but it takes 70 minutes. Costs about $7 and is the sort of traditional urban train you're imagining.
The Keisei Skyliner on the other hand is the premium express option with reserved seating and much faster rolling stock. It runs a very separate route which happens to allow for a stop in the middle not serviced on the main line. It gets you back and forth in 40 minutes--thirty minutes quicker than the main line and twenty minutes faster than driving.

skyliner1.jpg

I wrote in this image that the skyliner ticket is $17, but before the yen/usd collapsed this was much closer to $28 USD. And let me tell you, I picked it nearly every time. To shave 30 minutes off the travel time into the city was 100% worth it. And I'm not rich! I bummed it in Tokyo hostels for fifteen bucks a night and flew there on standby during time off from work (much easier to fly standby back then). But I never regretted spending extra on the express route into the city because the whole point was to get from A to B, not waste time in between.

Out of necessity I have indeed taken the main line into Tokyo once and it is miserably slow. Like, psychologically painful lol. The next time I faced that situation I opted to take an express bus into the city instead because it was ten minutes quicker. Driving/Taxiing is just quicker when your goal is to get from end-to-end. The Trinity Railway Express is great for providing local service along its line (which is how most riders use it), but as the Fort Worth - Dallas rail route it's a slog that doesn't come close to competing with driving that same distance.

This comparison isn't 1:1 of course, the Keisei Skyliner is not true HSR (it's more akin to the Brightline service in terms of speed), and Fort Worth is not an airport.
But we're still talking about two big end-to-end travel points with high back and forth traffic; they are serviced by two separate routes that don't overlap, the express is more expensive, and the express route adds a stop in the middle not serviced by the other. I think the comparison is worthwhile.

Also yes, Tokyo is hugely populated, but this express route exists as and is primarily used as a link to Narita airport, so I think it's worthwhile to bring up the fact that Narita does not even crack the top 50 busiest airports in the world--yet a separate express rail line just to link it to the city can still be justified despite its companion Tokyo airport, Haneda, ranking 5th and is the primarily used airport for the region. I don't think it's super outlandish to suggest linking two major cities in a similarly direct way could be successful, especially as the those cities continue to improve their downtown areas.

I see value in this route even if it's all that gets built. I think making it HSR (rather than Brightline-esque) in order to carry-through with a Dallas-Houston route adds to the overall viability of both legs, and adding a stop in Arlington is a huge bonus not possible with a double-tracked TRE. Besides, putting it along the TRE corridor would also limit its speed.
If you create a rail connection between two points that doesn't merely mirror driving but blows it out of the water people will want to use it. And in this future the TRE will always have its place for its current and future riders as TOD gets planned around its many stations, but as a direct link between Dallas and Fort Worth we should do much better.

I think there absolutely is value in it being built. We should reorganize the city as a network of density nodes, served by rail and high speed rail. It makes the city smaller and easier to get around. Living in downtown and taking the rail to a cowboys and rangers game in the afternoon, increases the livability and feasibility of developments everywhere on the high speed line. Which is why it is very important that Dallas doesn't get the short end of the stick when it comes to this. It needs to be integrated as well as possible into downtown and dart.

Instead we are getting the most awkward compromise of 7 story rail running all over the place because some billionaire wants to make pretty renderings of their empty plot.

[Tucy I]

I want to come in here with a personal anecdote to draw a little comparison that I feel is apt with regards to what value I see in a FTW-DAL HSR line. I know folks are skeptical since the TRE exists.
Humor me.

In the 2010s I frequently traveled to Tokyo, and in Tokyo there are two primary airports: Haneda and Narita International Airport. You can think of them as Love Field and DFW; Haneda is in the city and much closer to everything, while Narita is the far more distant airport. I always flew into Narita.

Now, to get from Narita to Tokyo is roughly equivalent to the same distance that separates Fort Worth and Dallas (the two satellite views in the image below are to-scale with each other, taken from the same altitude).

To travel between Narita and Tokyo by train you have two primary options: the Keisei Main Line or the Keisei Skyliner. The Main Line is a local train serving multiple stops along the way. It will get you there, but it takes 70 minutes. Costs about $7 and is the sort of traditional urban train you're imagining.
The Keisei Skyliner on the other hand is the premium express option with reserved seating and much faster rolling stock. It runs a very separate route which happens to allow for a stop in the middle not serviced on the main line. It gets you back and forth in 40 minutes--thirty minutes quicker than the main line and twenty minutes faster than driving.

skyliner1.jpg

I wrote in this image that the skyliner ticket is $17, but before the yen/usd collapsed this was much closer to $28 USD. And let me tell you, I picked it nearly every time. To shave 30 minutes off the travel time into the city was 100% worth it. And I'm not rich! I bummed it in Tokyo hostels for fifteen bucks a night and flew there on standby during time off from work (much easier to fly standby back then). But I never regretted spending extra on the express route into the city because the whole point was to get from A to B, not waste time in between.

Out of necessity I have indeed taken the main line into Tokyo once and it is miserably slow. Like, psychologically painful lol. The next time I faced that situation I opted to take an express bus into the city instead because it was ten minutes quicker. Driving/Taxiing is just quicker when your goal is to get from end-to-end. The Trinity Railway Express is great for providing local service along its line (which is how most riders use it), but as the Fort Worth - Dallas rail route it's a slog that doesn't come close to competing with driving that same distance.

This comparison isn't 1:1 of course, the Keisei Skyliner is not true HSR (it's more akin to the Brightline service in terms of speed), and Fort Worth is not an airport.
But we're still talking about two big end-to-end travel points with high back and forth traffic; they are serviced by two separate routes that don't overlap, the express is more expensive, and the express route adds a stop in the middle not serviced by the other. I think the comparison is worthwhile.

Also yes, Tokyo is hugely populated, but this express route exists as and is primarily used as a link to Narita airport, so I think it's worthwhile to bring up the fact that Narita does not even crack the top 50 busiest airports in the world--yet a separate express rail line just to link it to the city can still be justified despite its companion Tokyo airport, Haneda, ranking 5th and is the primarily used airport for the region. I don't think it's super outlandish to suggest linking two major cities in a similarly direct way could be successful, especially as the those cities continue to improve their downtown areas.

I see value in this route even if it's all that gets built. I think making it HSR (rather than Brightline-esque) in order to carry-through with a Dallas-Houston route adds to the overall viability of both legs, and adding a stop in Arlington is a huge bonus not possible with a double-tracked TRE. Besides, putting it along the TRE corridor would also limit its speed.
If you create a rail connection between two points that doesn't merely mirror driving but blows it out of the water people will want to use it. And in this future the TRE will always have its place for its current and future riders as TOD gets planned around its many stations, but as a direct link between Dallas and Fort Worth we should do much better.

Why would we expect HSR would cover the Dallas-Forth Worth 31 miles in 25 minutes, with a stop in Arlington on the way, when the Tokyo service takes 41 minutes to go 37 miles, with one intervening stop.

If we assume the same speed of service, we should expect more like 30 minutes to cover the 31 miles between Dallas and Fort Worth.

The question then (and even at 25 minutes, the same question arises) is: does a 30-minute train ride sufficiently "blow driving out of the water" to make a sufficient number of people use it? In DFW, it's a 30-minute train ride vs driving 30 min - 1 hour drive. In Tokyo, the comparison is a 41 minute train ride vs 1 - 1 3/4 hours driving. That's before considering getting to and from the central city train stations in Dallas and Fort Worth, which for most people is going to mean getting in their car and driving. But even if they take transit to the central city station, the comparison gets even worse (less blowing driving out of the water). Picking a random spot in north Fort Worth to travel to Downtown Dallas (assuming that the ultimate destination is Downtown Dallas):

Drive to Fort Worth Station (18-30 minutes); add 15 minutes to park and board (likely need to allow for at least 30 minutes). Total time: 1 hour, 3 minutes - 1 hour 15 minutes.

Transit to Fort Worth Station (1 hour 19 minutes; add 10 minutes to assure connections (could well require a lot more, depending on schedules). Total time: 1 hour 59 minutes.

Drive to Downtown Dallas: 45 minutes - 1 hour 10 minutes.

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

Why would we expect HSR would cover the Dallas-Forth Worth 31 miles in 25 minutes, with a stop in Arlington on the way, when the Tokyo service takes 41 minutes to go 37 miles, with one intervening stop.

If we assume the same speed of service, we should expect more like 30 minutes to cover the 31 miles between Dallas and Fort Worth.

It's because of the different rolling stock we'll be using. I should have put the speeds in the image, that's my bad. That Tokyo train goes high speeds, but it's not HSR in the technical sense. It runs at 100 mph and is not a bullet train. The train stock we'll be using will top out at around 160 mph on this particular I30 route (The route to Houston on the same trains will go 200+ mph). With time for an Arlington stop and the time needed for slowing down accounted for the route from fort worth to dallas will take 25 minutes. For an express run that skips arlington it would take only 20 minutes.

The question then (and even at 25 minutes, the same question arises) is: does a 30-minute train ride sufficiently "blow driving out of the water" to make a sufficient number of people use it? In DFW, it's a 30-minute train ride vs driving 30 min - 1 hour drive. In Tokyo, the comparison is a 41 minute train ride vs 1 - 1 3/4 hours driving. That's before considering getting to and from the central city train stations in Dallas and Fort Worth, which for most people is going to mean getting in their car and driving. But even if they take transit to the central city station, the comparison gets even worse (less blowing driving out of the water). Picking a random spot in north Fort Worth to travel to Downtown Dallas (assuming that the ultimate destination is Downtown Dallas):

Drive to Fort Worth Station (18-30 minutes); add 15 minutes to park and board (likely need to allow for at least 30 minutes). Total time: 1 hour, 3 minutes - 1 hour 15 minutes.

Transit to Fort Worth Station (1 hour 19 minutes; add 10 minutes to assure connections (could well require a lot more, depending on schedules). Total time: 1 hour 59 minutes.

Drive to Downtown Dallas: 45 minutes - 1 hour 10 minutes.

Most people won't use this train, just how most people don't use every stretch of highway. Imagine instead we're talking about adding an additional car lane to I30. Such a project is pretty meaningless for someone in north fort worth who is driving to dallas as they're typically taking 820/183 or 114 anyways, they're not often going all the way to downtown fort worth then driving across I-30. Whether we're adding a new car lane to I30 or adding a train line to I30, the person in north fort worth is not regularly going to use either one since its just not part of their travel, so we shouldn't measure the practicality of a transportation project based on the experience of an outlier user not near the project.

That's not to say suburbanites would never use it, this does benefit the whole region, but they're not the make-or-break ridership. Their strength will come mostly in the time that this becomes part of a larger HSR network to other cities when it functions more like an airport. But locally they would be using it in special circumstances where some other benefit of the trip outweighs the extra travel time it would take, like if they're wanting to avoid event parking in arlington, or they're not confident navigating downtown dallas streets. This is a central fort worth to central dallas project and its practicality should be measured on a sliding scale emanating from the populated areas near to it--which are purposefully the areas of highest density for their respective cities. The most practical zones of are probably inside the 820 loop and loop12/northwest highway.

We're talking about a project that's likely 15 years away before we're stepping foot onto it. So, assuming Dallas county and Tarrant county hold steady on their population growths for the next fifteen years, we're looking at an additional 300k people in Dallas county (puts us around 3 million) and an additional 400k population in Tarrant (puts them to around 2.5 million). But another factor for ridership, and I think this is big, is that this would be huge for visitors in a way that the TRE is not. We shouldn't just think about how many people live in and around central Dallas and central fort worth, but also how many people stay in the hotels in these areas, and how much more appealing and novel this would be to ride to the sister city in. Both city centers are getting better all the time and I think all of us here expect/hope they continue doing so over the next 15 years. More reasons to live in them and more reasons to visit them, a continued trajectory of the path we've witnessed these areas go through for the past 30 years. That trajectory hasn't stopped and I think the case for this train only gets stronger as time goes on.

[Tucy I]

So you’re already admitting 90% of the metro population is not your target market. Even among the remaining 10%, very few will have their drives between D and FW blown out of the water by this proposed train service.

[mhainli]

I don’t think the D to FW line will ever stand on its own merits as a transit line - even in 15-20 years when realistically can open. Also don’t think D to H can stand on its own without being heavily subsidized. They both need each other and future connections to Austin/SA to maximize ridership and be successful from a financial standpoint.

As stated before, the D to H line still needs more statewide POLITICAL support. IMO it needs FW, A, SA to be on board with some future HS rail for themselves to regain support from governor, leg and thereby Japanese government funding for portion of D-H, etc. With politics being more important than finances, Dallas going all in on just D-H won’t be enough…

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

This is neat, a fan-made rendering of both possible routes:
Youtube : Stew's U.S. High Speed Rail News August 2024

This is how the line could theoretically look, and I feel is a better approximation than that fever dream Hunt Realty cooked up--Which, I emphasize every time I talk about it, is fanmade as well. Would hatermade be the word? Hunt Realty has as much insight into the design of this thing as Lucid Stew does, which is zero, because it hasn't even begun to be designed.
But one of them seems to think we would build, without a doubt, the ugliest set of HSR train tracks that yet exist on planet earth.

hsr14.jpg

hsr13.jpg

But to the video, you can get a feel for how absurd the height requirements are for the new redirected route since it has to get clearance over the mixmaster now. It's wild, and a dumb compromise for no good reason. The original route was fine.

[quixomniac]

This is neat, a fan-made rendering of both possible routes:
Youtube : Stew's U.S. High Speed Rail News August 2024

This is how the line could theoretically look, and I feel is a better approximation than that fever dream Hunt Realty cooked up--Which, I emphasize every time I talk about it, is fanmade as well. Would hatermade be the word? Hunt Realty has as much insight into the design of this thing as Lucid Stew does, which is zero, because it hasn't even begun to be designed.
But one of them seems to think we would build, without a doubt, the ugliest set of HSR train tracks that yet exist on planet earth.

hsr14.jpg
hsr13.jpg

But to the video, you can get a feel for how absurd the height requirements are for the new redirected route since it has to get clearance over the mixmaster now. It's wild, and a dumb compromise for no good reason. The original route was fine.

wow. I didnt know that was the suggested alternative. I thought it was this one:
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 20downtown.

Regardless, it does illustrate how tall the alternatives have to be to go over all the overpasses.
In order to avoid “ruining” Hunt’s property investment, they will ruin multiple other areas.
Not to mention the downtown views that are ruined.

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

wow. I didnt know that was the suggested alternative. I thought it was this one:
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 20downtown.

Regardless, it does illustrate how tall the alternatives have to be to go over all the overpasses.
In order to avoid “ruining” Hunt’s property investment, they will ruin multiple other areas.
Not to mention the downtown views that are ruined.

As I understand it, a day before the NCTCOG meeting DMN got their hands on the handful of alternative routes NCTCOG was considering presenting to Dallas, which is how they got circulating around. NCTCOG were still in the process of deciding until right before the meeting, and ultimately settled on presenting the one below. It was the only one in the meeting materials, and is the one used in the fan mock-up video.

hsr01.jpg

The other two, that were ultimately dropped from the presentation, for comparison:

hsr02.jpg

hsr03.jpg

But yeah, none of these alternatives are great because of the same height clearances for all of them to get over the overpasses, something the original route didn't deal with since it hugged the existing Union Pacific rail right-of-way all the way to the station.
Looking at all three alternatives side by side you can really tell how much they tried to appease city council and treat Hunt's property like a delicate flower at risk of wilting if the tracks block a sliver of its sunlight. All this to protect our most critical and valuable of streets, Hotel st.

[quixomniac]

wow. I didnt know that was the suggested alternative. I thought it was this one:
https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 20downtown.

Regardless, it does illustrate how tall the alternatives have to be to go over all the overpasses.
In order to avoid “ruining” Hunt’s property investment, they will ruin multiple other areas.
Not to mention the downtown views that are ruined.

As I understand it, a day before the NCTCOG meeting DMN got their hands on the handful of alternative routes NCTCOG was considering presenting to Dallas, which is how they got circulating around. NCTCOG were still in the process of deciding until right before the meeting, and ultimately settled on presenting the one below. It was the only one in the meeting materials, and is the one used in the fan mock-up video.
hsr01.jpg


The other two, that were ultimately dropped from the presentation, for comparison:
hsr02.jpg
hsr03.jpg


But yeah, none of these alternatives are great because of the same height clearances for all of them to get over the overpasses, something the original route didn't deal with since it hugged the existing Union Pacific rail right-of-way all the way to the station.
Looking at all three alternatives side by side you can really tell how much they tried to appease city council and treat Hunt's property like a delicate flower at risk of wilting if the tracks block a sliver of its sunlight. All this to protect our most critical and valuable of streets, Hotel st.

Thats truly revolting. In order to avoid touching Hunt’s Reunion property, they will kneecap all future development along Riverfront, furthermore any possibility of a neighborhood next to the Trinity River Park, long term goals of the city . Mind you, there are already existing businesses there!

It almost feels like NCTCOG chose the worst option to try to push the city to stick to the original plan. Politics?

I honestly almost rather they not built it at all. There will be no impact at all to Arlington and Ft Worth, yet there will be scars cutting all around Dallas’s areas with the most potential. Truly saddening.

[mhainli]

Yes, for all the reasons stated above the original alignment adjacent to the UPRR is by far the best for that area of downtown. It’s also the best for the Hunt property - they just don’t know it yet. The HSR and ped walkway actually give the Hunts a reason to develop something substantial on that site. The Hunt blathering about the original route also ignited a city hall overreaction.

Be nice if someone showed the HSR along UPRR with Hunt’s Promised Land development buildings in place too. Wouldn’t this hide the HSR??

[I45Tex]

The project will either get built or not, and that decision will have little to do with the DTD terminus, but I wish that the HSR train access would not get shoehorned in like this, strangled before it can do anything new urbanistically.

I suppose I would rather it come straight in north of Martyrs Park, on a lofty skylit-ceilinged indoor concourse ending over the railroad wye. Have escalators northward down to an infill DART Green & Orange station, and just forget about Union Station altogether (West End DART would be a shorter link path for Red & Blue connections, and Union's remaining TRE service is unlikely to get valuable enough HSR transfers if the HSR has to go to DTFW already). Or just mess up the existing wye and add trackage to create a full climate-controlled Red-Blue-Green-Orange infill transfer station right there under the new HSR platform, inside the fare gates.

[electricron]

Too many of you forgot who actually owns the property. Being downtown that property is valued extremely high.
I think heading north to the UP bridge across the Trinity River is not needed. Turn west at I-30, follow I-30 west of downtown, build a new bridge immediately adjacent, either north or south, of the brand new I-30 bridge. Follow the I-30 right of way west through Arlington and to Fort Worth. The amount of land needed to be purchase would be minimized. There is no need to to cross the Trinity River further north unless you plan to build a new HSR station above Union Station, which is entirely not needed. That is if you decide to spend more than $10 Billion 5to have this HSR link.
Personally, there is no reason to have that HSR link. Highway, waterway, and railway links already exist. Do we really need another link?

I understand why NCTCOG offered the first proposal, this latest proposal is so dumb it had to be made on purpose. Twisting over and around existing highway ramps. DART did much better at Loop 12 with the orange line. Sure, it was routed higher, but it co-existed with the existing highway. They didn't cross the highway at its highest possible point.

[tamtagon]

Why isn't the route from Dallas to fort Worth being planned through DFW airport?

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

Too many of you forgot who actually owns the property. Being downtown that property is valued extremely high.
I think heading north to the UP bridge across the Trinity River is not needed. Turn west at I-30, follow I-30 west of downtown, build a new bridge immediately adjacent, either north or south, of the brand new I-30 bridge. Follow the I-30 right of way west through Arlington and to Fort Worth. The amount of land needed to be purchase would be minimized. There is no need to to cross the Trinity River further north unless you plan to build a new HSR station above Union Station, which is entirely not needed. That is if you decide to spend more than $10 Billion 5to have this HSR link.
Personally, there is no reason to have that HSR link. Highway, waterway, and railway links already exist. Do we really need another link?

I understand why NCTCOG offered the first proposal, this latest proposal is so dumb it had to be made on purpose. Twisting over and around existing highway ramps. DART did much better at Loop 12 with the orange line. Sure, it was routed higher, but it co-existed with the existing highway. They didn't cross the highway at its highest possible point.

This link is important in how much better it positions DFW as a highspeed rail hub for the country. This is how the Federal Rail Admin envisions the national network:

dfwhsr.jpg

Getting our most painful part of all of this, the FTW-DAL leg, taken care of now makes it much easier for a network like this to plug into the metroplex later.
The Westward, Northwestward, and Northward routes are all immeasurably easier to pull off if you're starting from Fort Worth because you hit rural land only ten miles out from downtown Fort Worth. (Also, going up to OKC by way of Fort Worth is far more likely than going up to Tulsa by way of Dallas, so that Teal line out of Dallas can practically be scratched out already. It just makes more sense to prioritize FTW-OKC-Tulsa, then split the line at Tulsa).

Those three (W, NW, N) routes will leave from Fort Worth whether Dallas wants them to or not because the feds won't ignore Fort Worth (just as they didn't ignore fort worth when we were tussling over our airports) nor will they pretend like it isn't hella cheaper to get in and out of the metroplex using Fort Worth for those routes than doing some weird spaghetti loop out from the Cedars that eventually goes west around Fort Worth. The common argument that Fort Worthians can simply get over to Dallas to hop on HSR will apply in the other direction as well, so there's a possible scenario where we have three routes going out from FTW and three going out from Dallas, requiring a needlessly lengthy commute for anyone wanting to make a transfer. Imagine half of DFW Airport's terminals being in Dallas for flights in the eastern portion of the U.S., and the other half of the terminals being in Fort Worth for flights in the western portion of the U.S. Sure there could be a way to connect, but think what a colossal pain in the ass it would be and how much that would have hampered the metroplex's role as a nationally important crossroads.

This region owes its success to continually positioning itself as the crossroads in the center of North America; this would be the continuation of that so long as we can pull it off right. We would become the HSR transfer hub for the entire American south but to do that people have to actually be able to transfer.

Yes, for all the reasons stated above the original alignment adjacent to the UPRR is by far the best for that area of downtown. It’s also the best for the Hunt property - they just don’t know it yet. The HSR and ped walkway actually give the Hunts a reason to develop something substantial on that site. The Hunt blathering about the original route also ignited a city hall overreaction.

The real kicker is that NCTCOG already agreed they would be the ones securing funding for that people-mover/pedway, it wouldn't just be on the city's shoulders to figure out. It was to make up for the fact that it's impossible to bury Dallas's station. It would be so foolish for us to throw that away because of an overreaction.

[electricron]

Yes, for all the reasons stated above the original alignment adjacent to the UPRR is by far the best for that area of downtown. It’s also the best for the Hunt property - they just don’t know it yet. The HSR and ped walkway actually give the Hunts a reason to develop something substantial on that site. The Hunt blathering about the original route also ignited a city hall overreaction.

They can build an elevated walkway without building the HSR line.
How many existing walkways already exist in downtown Dallas without a HSR line?
All of them!

If you are going to use I-30 right of way for "most" of the way for D-FW HSR line, why not use it for "all" the way?

[Hannibal Lecter]

This discussion reminds me of the line from Jurassic Park: "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should"

Billions of dollars to take a few minutes of the existing service's time, with no evidence it will increase ridership.

[Tucy I]

This discussion reminds me of the line from Jurassic Park: "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should"

Billions of dollars to take a few minutes of the existing service's time, with no evidence it will increase ridership.

Brought to you by the same group of geniuses (generally speaking) who told us for years that we must spend billions of dollars building a Downtown Dallas subway line, even though their own projections showed it would reduce overall system ridership. Imagine the improvements in bus service DART could have provided with just the money that was wasted planing that absurd project. If only NCTCOG had someone willing to stand up and yell "STOP"!

[MC_ScattCat]

I'm less worried about the Dallas to Fort Worth portion of this project. It took me 7 hours to drive to Houston two Fridays ago due to traffic and construction. Flying is shorter time wise, but weather and the fact your then required to drive into town makes it also less than ideal. Somehow connecting all the triangle cities would ideal. Then again this isn't SimCity.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Flying is shorter time wise, but weather and the fact your then required to drive into town makes it also less than ideal.

Note that DFW is much closer to the population center of the region than the proposed rail station. For most people it's more convenient.

[tamtagon]

I'f HSR ever makes it in Texas, seems like DFW could really benefit from a station, especially if San Antonio and Austin get stations.

[I45Tex]

...Imagine half of DFW Airport's terminals being in Dallas for flights in the eastern portion of the U.S., and the other half of the terminals being in Fort Worth for flights in the western portion of the U.S. Sure there could be a way to connect, but think what a colossal pain in the ass it would be and how much that would have hampered the metroplex's role as a nationally important crossroads.
... We would become the HSR transfer hub for the entire American south but to do that people have to actually be able to transfer.

Is rail to airport a good analogy, I wonder? From Atlanta to even Phoenix is over 1800 miles and would be a solid 10 hour day of travel via HSR even if a traveler had no last mile transfers at both ends. Compare Japan where Kokura Station (Kitakyushu) to Aomori is a journey of 8:45 and roughly 1000-1100 miles. I just don't envision airports losing rideshare to HSR for trips of 8+ hours by rail (and if southerners aren't going at least that far, then why would they be needing to transfer in Texas??)

[electricron]

Most advocates do not realize how slow HSR average speeds really are. 90 minutes to travel the approximately 240 miles Texas Central projects.
Math = 240 / 1.5 = 166 mph average.
That's with just one intermediate stop. Not the proposed maximum speed of 186 mph. It's 20 mph slower.
Let's use an earlier example of Atlanta to Phoenix, 1800/166 mph average = 10.8 hours, again assuming just one intermediate stop (assuming in the DFW area). This train example will probably. under political pressure, have at least one stop in every state. GA, (AL, MS, LA, TX, NM), and AZ. That's 5 intermediate stops, there will probably be more. If the average speed of the trains drops 20 mph for one intermediate stop, how much more will it drop for five intermediate stops?
Texas Central is able to reach these high maximum speeds because it is being built mostly within a new transportation corridor, avoiding speed restrictions imposed by existing ones. Being a new corridor, new land must be purchased, which costs dollars. Cheaper to build in existing corridors because you will not have to buy much more land, but then your speeds will be restricted by them.
Let's look at the Brightline West HSR line between Rancho Cucamonga and Las Vegas. Projected time of 2 hours and 10 minutes to travel 218 miles almost exclusively in the I-15 corridor. To make the math simpler, lets change the 10 minutes to 12 minutes.
Math = 218/2.2 = 99 mph average.
Yes, although the trains can go just as fast, because of the speed restrictions caused by using the existing corridor, the average speed of the train is 67 mph slower than within a brand new corridor.
Will the HSR train between Atlanta and Phoenix run within the I-20 corridor or all the way in a brand new corridor? If within I-20, using the 99 mph average speed achieved in the I-15 corridor, we get the following results:
Math = 1800/99 = 18.18 hours.
Wow, the train lost around 7.4 hours.
How many more riders can a train taking 18 hours get than a plane taking 3-4 hours? I suggest not many.

[GunnerDallas]

This is starting to sound like a high school math problem. "If a train leaves Dallas travelling at 186 mph, and another train leaves Atlanta..."

[electricron]

The reason the D-FW HSR project is proposed to take 20-30 minutes to travel the around 30 miles is because they wish to use the I-30 corridor most of the way to save money. But it is slow.
Math = 30/0.5 = 60 mph average.
Math = 30/0.33 = 90 mph average.
FYI, the TRE takes around 60 minutes averaging around 30 mph.
But suppose we double track the entire TRE corridor, run express trains, we could average over 60 mph, when reaching around 80 mph is the maximum permitted with the trains in use. Not quite the proposed best 90 mph average, but equal or better than the minimum 60 mph average proposed.
Think of all the money saved, then think how much better the TRE service could be.

[lakewoodhobo]

The connection to Fort Worth was never about saving money. It's about NCTCOG getting Forth Worth's approval to support the Dallas-Houston project, which is needed before Amtrak and the feds can move forward with funding.

Really nothing more than a bribe.

[MC_ScattCat]

Personally,

I wonder if the the same amount of money used for an HSR from Dallas to Fort Worth could be used to better on the following:

Double track the existing TRE (allowing express trains)
Remove all at grade crossings (because idiots)
Work with UPRR to build additional tracks for a TRE going through Grand Prairie and Arlington (maybe even a street car going from the stadiums to a TRE station in downtown Arlington)

[Tucy I]

Personally,

I wonder if the the same amount of money used for an HSR from Dallas to Fort Worth could be used to better on the following:

Double track the existing TRE (allowing express trains)
Remove all at grade crossings (because idiots)
Work with UPRR to build additional tracks for a TRE going through Grand Prairie and Arlington (maybe even a street car going from the stadiums to a TRE station in downtown Arlington)

Good ideas. I would guess all of that could be done for substantially less than the D to FW HSR boondoggle.