Downtown Progress

[The_Overdog]

IMO: not really. Lakes don't make up very much of Dallas proper, nor does the Trinity Forrest.

If I had to throw a guess, it's because much of southern and western Dallas is barely developed. Dallas also has on-average larger single family lot sizes than most of it's suburbs, so it's developed single-family neighborhoods are less dense, especially the ones developed from the 1970s onward. Dallas density actually falls north of Highland Park until you get to Richardson.

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

IMO: not really. Lakes don't make up very much of Dallas proper, nor does the Trinity Forrest.

Yeah, the floodplain+trinity forest within the city limits of Dallas only make up something like ~20 square miles total out of Dallas's 340 square miles of land.

[Matt777]

Lake Ray Hubbard is strangely included in Dallas city limits and is vast. Over 35 square miles or over 10% alone. Same with Joe Pool Lake (12+ square miles) and Add in the areas of other smaller lakes, Trinity floodplain, Trinity forest, and areas around it that are not easily developed and we are talking probably over 20% of land area as non-developable. That's statistically very significant.

Don't forget that Dallas bears a larger percent of areas devoted to industrial/logistics space than the northern suburbs too.

South Dallas is less dense than it could be, that will probably change.

[itsjrd1964]

Lake Ray Hubbard belongs to Dallas despite Rockwall, Rowlett, Garland, Sunnyvale, and Heath being along its shores. Same applies to North Lake, which has Irving and Coppell as neighbors.

[IcedCowboyCoffee]

I'm coming in with some math.

Dallas total area is 385.9 sq miles.
The total area of water in the city limits is 43.87 sq miles, so the total area of actual land is 339.604.
Let's assume the trinity forest and the floodplain combined make up 25 sq miles. I think this is generous as it's more than half the total area of water. So, with that, let's put Dallas at 314 sq miles of "developable" land.
Using the 2022 census estimate, that puts the city of Dallas density at 4,138 people per square mile.

Here's how the list of DFW cities looks with that number for Dallas in it:
(All land area totals already have the water area subtracted from it. It is purely land.)

popdens1.JPG

Limited to cities with 100k+

popdens2.JPG

Sorted by total land area:

popdens3.JPG

These numbers are of course a bit generous to Dallas because it assumes every other city's land is 100% developable.
With the floodplain/forest put back in, the city's density is 3826.6.
Assuming I was way off by using 25 sq miles, let's say all that stuff added up to 35 sq miles actually; that value would put Dallas's density at 4,274 people per square mile. So, you can see where those two numbers would fall in these lists.

[R1070]

Greyhound it closing it's downtown terminal this October! yay

[itsjrd1964]

Greyhound it closing it's downtown terminal this October! yay

Well, where are all the passengers going to go? Fort Worth? Or a new terminal somewhere else?

[R1070]

Not sure at this point.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Greyhound it closing it's downtown terminal this October! yay

Well, where are all the passengers going to go? Fort Worth? Or a new terminal somewhere else?

They will relocate somewhere else in the city.

[Tucy I]

Office Space Occupied in Central Dallas (per Transwestern)

CBD
4th Q 2012: 27,209,000
3rd Q 2020: 22,950,000
1st Q 2023: 18,897,254
2nd Q 2023:18,756,594
4th Q 2023:19,192,705

Uptown/Turtle Creek
4th Q 2012: 10,396,000
3rd Q 2020: 12,367,000
1st Q 2023: 10,470,107
2nd Q 2023: 10,559,627
4th Q 2023: 10,933,529

Greater Downtown Dallas
4th Q 2012: 37,605,000
3rd Q 2020: 35,317,000
1st Q 2023: 29,367,361
2nd Q 2023: 29,316,221
4th Q 2023: 30,126,234

Stemmons Corridor
4th Q 2012: 12,135,718
3rd Q 2020: 12,514,121
1st Q 2023: 8,363,275
2nd Q 2023: 8,295,095
4th Q 2023: 8,625,285

Preston Center
4th Q2012: 4,576,398
3rd Q 2020: 5,019,585
1st Q 2023: 4,121,411
2nd Q 2023: 4,047,774
4th Q 2023: 4,281,291

Central Expressway
4th Q 2012: 14,263,926
3rd Q 2020: 12,514,121 (This one is not even as "good" as it looks... the 2020 inventory includes Park Central, whereas the 2012 inventory did not.)
1st Q 2023: 11,121,601
2nd Q 2023: 11,019,625
4th Q 2023: 11,043,849

Deep Ellum/East Dallas
4th Q 2012: 2,211,221
3rd Q 2020: 1,529,173
1st Q 2023: 1,211,032
2nd Q 2023: 1,180,422
4th Q 2023: 1,179,426

West LBJ
4th Q 2012: 4,176,724
3rd Q 2020: 3,323,225
1st Q 2023: 2,746,046
2nd Q 2023: 2,806,731
4th Q 2023: 2,702,941

Total Office Space Occupied in these Central Dallas Submarkets:
4th Q 2012: 74,968,987 square feet
3rd Q 2020: 70,217,225 square feet.
1st Q 2023: 56,930,726 square feet
2nd Q 2023: 56,665,868
4th Q 2023: 57,959,026

[Tucy I]

Downtown Dallas Multifamily Market Report - 1st Quarter 2024. Colliers

40 Buildings with a total of 9,655 units in the market. Two buildings were delivered to market in the quarter, adding 586 units. Three buildings with 468 more units are currently under construction.

Vacancy Rate: 11.7%

[Jay9398]

Downtown Dallas Multifamily Market Report - 1st Quarter 2024. Colliers

40 Buildings with a total of 9,655 units in the market. Two buildings were delivered to market in the quarter, adding 586 units. Three buildings with 468 more units are currently under construction.

Vacancy Rate: 11.7%

Thanks, Tucy. You always bring great info.

What is the definition of "Downtown Dallas" in this report? Just CBD or does it include Cedars, Oak Lawn, etc.?

[Tucy I]

Downtown Dallas Multifamily Market Report - 1st Quarter 2024. Colliers

40 Buildings with a total of 9,655 units in the market. Two buildings were delivered to market in the quarter, adding 586 units. Three buildings with 468 more units are currently under construction.

Vacancy Rate: 11.7%

Thanks, Tucy. You always bring great info.

What is the definition of "Downtown Dallas" in this report? Just CBD or does it include Cedars, Oak Lawn, etc.?

I think it is just the CBD. They don't provide a map or a definition, but those numbers seem about right for just the CBD. Uptown/Park Cities is its own submarket, so definitely does not include that. Could possibly include Deep Ellum and/or Cedars...

[citygeek]

Thank you Tucy.

[tamtagon]

Downtown residential occupancy is lower than it's been in a while. I hope it doesn't affect the pipeline of new units. The city really needs to do what it can to make it easier and more fulfilling to live there.

[Tucy I]

Downtown Dallas Multifamily Market Report - 2nd Quarter 2024. Colliers

40 Buildings with a total of 9,549 units in the market. Two buildings were delivered to market in the quarter, adding 513 units. Four buildings with 801 more units are currently under construction.

Vacancy Rate: Remains at 11.7%

Interestingly, despite having added an additional two buildings, the building count remains the same and the unit count went down by 106 units. I guess two older buildings were removed from the market?

Colliers doesn't give absorption numbers, but with the numbers they give, we can calculate it.

1st Q: 88.3% occupancy of 9655 units = 8,525 occupied units.
2nd Q: 88.3% occupancy of 9,549 units = 8,432 occupied units. Net absorption, 2nd Q 2024: Negative 93 units.

[Tnexster]

Thanks for the data, we have been watching this for so long now, I always feel like there should be more units than what we have. Seems painfully slow.

[Jbarn]

8,432 occupied units; thousands of hotel rooms; tens of thousands of downtown workers; convention goers, etc…., yet the streets are eerily quiet most of the time, and downtown can’t support retail, and most restaurants struggle. I don’t get it. Where is everybody? What’s it going to take for downtown Dallas to become a vibrant, busy downtown befitting a city of 1.3 million people in the fourth largest metro in the country? Perhaps Dallas will always be a low-density, low foot traffic, car-oriented city. It’s sad and embarrassing.

[dallaz]

8,432 occupied units; thousands of hotel rooms; tens of thousands of downtown workers; convention goers, etc…., yet the streets are eerily quiet most of the time, and downtown can’t support retail, and most restaurants struggle. I don’t get it. Where is everybody? What’s it going to take for downtown Dallas to become a vibrant, busy downtown befitting a city of 1.3 million people in the fourth largest metro in the country? Perhaps Dallas will always be a low-density, low foot traffic, car-oriented city. It’s sad and embarrassing.

I think Downtown still does not have consistent office workers everyday. According to an opinion piece by Jennifer Scripps (President and CEO of Downtown Dallas Inc), written in the DMN July 19th, only 75K people work downtown. I doubt that's a typo and it seems like some of the gains have been wiped away since the pandemic.

Dallas must compete and downtown must lead
Next city manager should prioritize urgency, competitiveness and esprit de corps at City Hall.

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/lead ... must-lead/

Here are three of the key tenets our next city manager must prioritize to best serve our 15,000 downtown residents, 75,000 workers and millions of annual visitors.

While listening to a city council meeting, I heard Council Member Tennell Atkins bring up to the rest of the council that Downtown is losing population (office workers) and how they need to spur additional economic development downtown. Here's the clip from June 12: https://dallastx.new.swagit.com/videos/ ... =13770.755

[Jbarn]

8,432 occupied units; thousands of hotel rooms; tens of thousands of downtown workers; convention goers, etc…., yet the streets are eerily quiet most of the time, and downtown can’t support retail, and most restaurants struggle. I don’t get it. Where is everybody? What’s it going to take for downtown Dallas to become a vibrant, busy downtown befitting a city of 1.3 million people in the fourth largest metro in the country? Perhaps Dallas will always be a low-density, low foot traffic, car-oriented city. It’s sad and embarrassing.

I think Downtown still does not have consistent office workers everyday. According to an opinion piece by Jennifer Scripps (President and CEO of Downtown Dallas Inc), written in the DMN July 19th, only 75K people work downtown. I doubt that's a typo and it seems like some of the gains have been wiped away since the pandemic.

Dallas must compete and downtown must lead
Next city manager should prioritize urgency, competitiveness and esprit de corps at City Hall.

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/lead ... must-lead/

Here are three of the key tenets our next city manager must prioritize to best serve our 15,000 downtown residents, 75,000 workers and millions of annual visitors.

While listening to a city council meeting, I heard Council Member Tennell Atkins bring up to the rest of the council that Downtown is losing population (office workers) and how they need to spur additional economic development downtown. Here's the clip from June 12: https://dallastx.new.swagit.com/videos/ ... =13770.755

So say downtown only has 75k workers now. Those 75k, along with 15k residents, thousands of hotel guests, some tourists, convention goers, etc….would equal 100k+ folks in downtown most days, yet there is virtually no retail, the restaurants struggle, and there are areas that literally seem like a ghost town. I think Dallas needs to come to terms with the fact that it will never have a vibrant, dynamic, busy downtown like a city its size should.
I used to think that maybe uptown would become Dallas’s new downtown, but even uptown is now a shell of its former self. McKinney Avenue is just sad now.

[dallaz]

8,432 occupied units; thousands of hotel rooms; tens of thousands of downtown workers; convention goers, etc…., yet the streets are eerily quiet most of the time, and downtown can’t support retail, and most restaurants struggle. I don’t get it. Where is everybody? What’s it going to take for downtown Dallas to become a vibrant, busy downtown befitting a city of 1.3 million people in the fourth largest metro in the country? Perhaps Dallas will always be a low-density, low foot traffic, car-oriented city. It’s sad and embarrassing.

I think Downtown still does not have consistent office workers everyday. According to an opinion piece by Jennifer Scripps (President and CEO of Downtown Dallas Inc), written in the DMN July 19th, only 75K people work downtown. I doubt that's a typo and it seems like some of the gains have been wiped away since the pandemic.

Dallas must compete and downtown must lead
Next city manager should prioritize urgency, competitiveness and esprit de corps at City Hall.

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/lead ... must-lead/

Here are three of the key tenets our next city manager must prioritize to best serve our 15,000 downtown residents, 75,000 workers and millions of annual visitors.

While listening to a city council meeting, I heard Council Member Tennell Atkins bring up to the rest of the council that Downtown is losing population (office workers) and how they need to spur additional economic development downtown. Here's the clip from June 12: https://dallastx.new.swagit.com/videos/ ... =13770.755

So say downtown only has 75k workers now. Those 75k, along with 15k residents, thousands of hotel guests, some tourists, convention goers, etc….would equal 100k+ folks in downtown most days, yet there is virtually no retail, the restaurants struggle, and there are areas that literally seem like a ghost town. I think Dallas needs to come to terms with the fact that it will never have a vibrant, dynamic, busy downtown like a city its size should.
I used to think that maybe uptown would become Dallas’s new downtown, but even uptown is now a shell of its former self. McKinney Avenue is just sad now.

That's still not a lot of people and I highly doubt it's consistent. It's more than likely hybird with workers there on certain days. Dallas had a more vibrant downtown when it was the clear center of the region. This is the lowest amount of office workers in downtown in generations and that's including the number of current residents. 15,000 residents isn't enough to support retail. The retail in the tunnels have closed because of the lack of office workers. McKinney Ave has to do with developers demolishing properties for projects that didn't get off the ground, mainly due to difficulties getting financing. That's something completely different and I would not call Uptown "a shell of its former self", when in reality it's booming.

This is downtown Dallas in the 1978, when flagship department stores like Titche-Goettinger and Sanger-Harris anchored downtown. Those two stores alone covered 1 million sq ft of retail space, both about 500K sq ft. Then hardly no one lived downtown and look at all the people. Mainly, just shoppers and office workers. You can see the shopping bags in ppl's hands. BTW there were little to no parks at the time too. Also before the freeway loop was completed around downtown.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comment ... rica_1978/