Uptown Dallas: Central Market at McKinney and Lemmon

[JDumont146]

Someone on the Discord server posted that construction was reset to begin in August:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... 5802/3.jpg

[RodB]

I'll believe it when I see bulldozers.

[NdoorTX]

I have a friend who works for Central Market corporate
and he confirms the start date. Let’s hope both leads
are right !

[Cbdallas]

This area needs this so bad I hope August we see something happen there.

[citygeek]

Hi jetnd87......Of course proposed projects are not' fantasies' in the truest sense of the word, but as all of us on this forum over the years have learned to accept is that some of the coolest-looking, most ambitious projects with the greatest, most imaginative of design never see the light of day. This occurs most frequently at or near the end of the latest boom cycle. These recent boom years for Dallas have been wonderful with so many new developments announced or under construction. I love it.
+

[citygeek]

Have looked forward to this one for a long time. The new data, as outlined above for the August start is very encouraging.

[Tnexster]

It says "expected' which leaves a lot of room for a delay.

[kingkong34]

I would agree Tnexster. I've seen projects on that website miss start dates.

But I've never seen a project on that site (Construction Journal) not get built. So I'd give it some more traction than it has had before.

[cowboyeagle05]

Hey, I drove by this morning and noticed all the bushes and landscaping along McKinney had been removed. When did that happen? The fence and brickwork walls were still there along the sidewalks, but all the bushes were cut off at the base and gone.

[Tnexster]

Hey, I drove by this morning and noticed all the bushes and landscaping along McKinney had been removed. When did that happen? The fence and brickwork walls were still there along the sidewalks, but all the bushes were cut off at the base and gone.

Maybe it will be an august miracle.

[cowboyeagle05]

That's why I asked cause for all I know that happened two months ago and I just noticed this morning since I don't drive that way regularly at all.

[northsouth]

Hey, I drove by this morning and noticed all the bushes and landscaping along McKinney had been removed. When did that happen? The fence and brickwork walls were still there along the sidewalks, but all the bushes were cut off at the base and gone.

Most of the bushes have been gone for several years. If they start taking out the bushes and trees on the other side of the fence inside the parking lot, then that'll be a sure sign of life.

[turtlecreek]

I’m not familiar with the development process in Dallas, but this permit was issued on 7/29/22: https://developdallas.dallascityhall.co ... =154580625

[Cbdallas]

Still snoozing and there are only 2 days left in August. Sigh.

[DFW]

Any movement here?
Is this project dead?

[rono3849]

Any movement here?
Is this project dead?

Pretty much. I think they can't get their act together with the economy in such a mess. As the interest rates go up, it appears less likely that this will ever break ground.

[R1070]

I don't even get excited about projects anymore. They never look like the renderings or they just don't happen at all. The Dallas Curse!

[tamtagon]

It happens in Atlanta too

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Any movement here?
Is this project dead?

Pretty much. I think they can't get their act together with the economy in such a mess. As the interest rates go up, it appears less likely that this will ever break ground.

Dallas Developers are so flaky

[DFW]

Very pessimistic situation here. I just can’t get the picture why this is happening in Dallas, even before the pandemic and now it’s inflation and higher interest rates. Yet corporate relocations continue here. Why then is Austin having a downtown building boom of towers, even before the pandemic, like crazy?

[Addison]

Very pessimistic situation here. I just can’t get the picture why this is happening in Dallas, even before the pandemic and now it’s inflation and higher interest rates. Yet corporate relocations continue here. Why then is Austin having a downtown building boom of towers, even before the pandemic, like crazy?

Correction: Corporate relocations continue (mostly) in the suburbs, which is part of the problem.

As far as Austin, they have a much faster and much less complicated building permit process, which developers find to be less costly. Not to mention, Austin has all that big tech money floating around which developers love because they're able to command much higher rents/purchase prices for apartments & condos.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Very pessimistic situation here. I just can’t get the picture why this is happening in Dallas, even before the pandemic and now it’s inflation and higher interest rates. Yet corporate relocations continue here. Why then is Austin having a downtown building boom of towers, even before the pandemic, like crazy?

Correction: Corporate relocations continue (mostly) in the suburbs, which is part of the problem.

As far as Austin, they have a much faster and much less complicated building permit process, which developers find to be less costly. Not to mention, Austin has all that big tech money floating around which developers love because they're able to command much higher rents/purchase prices for apartments & condos.

.this project has nothing to do with permits though... This one the developer waited too long

[Addison]

Very pessimistic situation here. I just can’t get the picture why this is happening in Dallas, even before the pandemic and now it’s inflation and higher interest rates. Yet corporate relocations continue here. Why then is Austin having a downtown building boom of towers, even before the pandemic, like crazy?

Correction: Corporate relocations continue (mostly) in the suburbs, which is part of the problem.

As far as Austin, they have a much faster and much less complicated building permit process, which developers find to be less costly. Not to mention, Austin has all that big tech money floating around which developers love because they're able to command much higher rents/purchase prices for apartments & condos.

.this project has nothing to do with permits though... This one the developer waited too long

I was speaking in general and not referring to any specific project.

That said, having to wait 6+ months to get approval(s) for construction will turn off even the most competent developers. In an environment of high inflation and rising costs for financing, time is money.

[Tnexster]

This one seems stalled, the Trulocks location tower seems stalled too. Makes me wonder, maybe recession headwinds are kicking in.

[The_Overdog]

I think HEB just works on it's own timelines. It sat on the Plano property for 5 years after it was platted, zoned, and approved as a grocery store. If they were concerned about interest rates, inflation, construction costs, etc, they would have started immediately. They didn't, because they may be factors considered, but ultimately they work at their own schedule.

[Addison]

I think HEB just works on it's own timelines. It sat on the Plano property for 5 years after it was platted, zoned, and approved as a grocery store. If they were concerned about interest rates, inflation, construction costs, etc, they would have started immediately. They didn't, because they may be factors considered, but ultimately they work at their own schedule.

This specific Central Market location is a part of a larger project being spearheaded by a developer that has no business ties with H-E-B, other than H-E-B agreeing to lease space in their proposed building.

EDIT: Although I will say on a related note, the fact they're in no hurry to open flagship stores in Dallas County or Dallas proper I'm sure is in large part because construction and operating costs would likely be higher, even despite several areas many areas in Dallas proper and Dallas County (I.E. Far North Dallas) having similar demographics that they found desirable in Plano and Frisco. It's no secret that Dallas' property taxes are considerably higher, and I'm certain H-E-B can't afford to have construction on a store that heavily relies on volume shopping to be stuck in red tape inside Dallas' permitting office for months.

[cowboyeagle05]

I would like to point out that both projects, the CBRE/Trammel Crow Co./Trulucks tower and this one have ties to very conservative companies. HEB does not work with a lot of outsider money they spend their own money on store development, so they like to be super double sure before they turn one shovel of dirt. They waited for decades to fight with Walmart on stores in DFW despite the desperate nature of cities to get them to build in their north texas districts. CBRE/Trammel Crow Co./etc. is also a company where everyone is expected to wear a suit and tie to work, and are very tight on how employees should operate their businesses. Both companies' cultures are built on conservatism in business practices. I don't mean Republican vs Democrat either, simply that they don't bet on projects that sound good. Here on the forum, we love to talk about a lot of projects we love without having real understanding of all the reasons a project happens or doesn't. I do this plenty. We treat urban development with a lot of carebear good feelings. If CBRE is not ready to charge over that hill on the new HQ they can afford not to cause they are the developer, Trammel Crow Co., and the lead tenant, CBRE. HEB/Central Market is working with KDC cause they don't do urban mixed-use projects, but they own the land, and despite it being Uptown, they are hesitant to build a store where they don't control all the angles.

[R1070]

This one seems stalled, the Trulocks location tower seems stalled too. Makes me wonder, maybe recession headwinds are kicking in.

These two projects along with the Four Seasons are the main ones I want to see go up right now! So frustrating.

[Cbdallas]

Strangely all of the bases for the light post on this property have been painted green. I have no idea what's up with that.
So sad this one should have already been coming out of ground and on its way.

[rono3849]

It's now getting close to being the middle of November and this project appears to have lost any momentum in progressing. I suspect this one is another victim of the poor economic climate. I don't know what the market outlook is for high rise living. HEB may be rethinking this project as well with Central Market struggling in the area, with the exception of their Lovers Lane location.

[jetnd87]

Central Market is struggling in the area?

[NdoorTX]

From a friend of mine who works for the home office, the Mc Kinney Avenue is a go. They just operate on their own time and methodically. They are in no rush.

I also gather from him that HEB is more the growth strategy than CM. He basically mentioned that HEB was exactly like CM, but instead of 20 versions of one item- HEB has 5. That might be what rono is stating. Not struggling, but lost in it's identity.

[rono3849]

From a friend of mine who works for the home office, the Mc Kinney Avenue is a go. They just operate on their own time and methodically. They are in no rush.

I also gather from him that HEB is more the growth strategy than CM. He basically mentioned that HEB was exactly like CM, but instead of 20 versions of one item- HEB has 5. That might be what rono is stating. Not struggling, but lost in it's identity.

Central Market's Midway & Preston Royal locations are running below expectations. Plano's store did see an uptick during the pandemic, but have fallen back to disappointing levels. The Lovers Lane location is doing well. HEB is rethinking their Dallas strategy since Kroger's offer to buy Tom Thumb's owner, Alberton's. The Feds may demand that Kroger divest most Tom Thumb/Albertson's/Market Place locations in the region. This could be a huge opening for HEB's entrance into the urban market.

[Cbdallas]

The developer also has not moved on the Klyde Warren Park building as well so maybe financing?, timing? who know at this point. I guess for the foreseeable future this will be an empty block and I will have to keep driving up to Lover Lane.

[MC_ScattCat]

Every time I go to the Midway one it's pretty busy. The one on Preston & Royal doesn't seem to be any less than pre-tornado. All this grocery store has me jealous. I hate having to go to uptown or on the other side of downtown for food. We in the N. Oak Cliff would love the Davis CM location. Cox Market is nice, but it doesn't have a lot of things and closes too early.

[cowboyeagle05]

The developer also has not moved on the Klyde Warren Park building as well so maybe financing?, timing? who know at this point. I guess for the foreseeable future this will be an empty block and I will have to keep driving up to Lover Lane.

Those are two different land owners though. The Klyde Warner Park project developer is KDC as well, but the owner there is different. This site is owned by HEB, with KDC as the developer. KDC has the funding it needs to build many of the projects it's partnered on but the land owner and type of project affect what will happen on both sites. One is an office project and needs a major office tenant like Goldmann Sachs to sign on the dotted line to even consider kicking dirt. It's pretty obvious Goldmann was the major tenant all these projects were trying to sign on and HUNT got it as expected so most of these major office projects are dead in the water now. The HEB site needs HEB to say yes they are ready to sign the lease and to start building.

[Jbarn]

I have been saying for years that this project was never going to happen. It has been in the planning stages for about 8 years now. If they weren’t able to get it started during this most recent property development boom, then they will never be able to get it started. This huge black hole is a drag on the whole area. They need to cut their losses, sale the land to a viable developer, and move on.

[rono3849]

I have been saying for years that this project was never going to happen. It has been in the planning stages for about 8 years now. If they weren’t able to get it started during this most recent property development boom, then they will never be able to get it started. This huge black hole is a drag on the whole area. They need to cut their losses, sale the land to a viable developer, and move on.

I suspect this will be the eventual fate of this property. Frankly, I find the location for a free standing grocery store to be misguided at best. I don't think any of the players are interested in moving forward. HEB has a lot on its plate right now and this mess is not on their front burner. They are looking at making an entrance into the Dallas/Ft. Worth grocery market as Kroger makes a run at buying Albertsons/Tom Thumb/Market Street. Kroger will have to divest themselves of many overlapping locations, which will create an opening for a new grocery chain. HEB is weighing its options as other large chains will as well.

[R1070]

I don't think a Central Market is needed there with Whole Foods down the street. I'd like to see an extension of West Village there with multiple shops lining McKinney Ave. Or just turn the whole block into a big park. Mutts can move over there to free that spot up.

[The_Overdog]

If they weren’t able to get it started during this most recent property development boom, then they will never be able to get it started.

I just don't think they care. They sat on the land for the other stores and constructed them into COVID and high inflation. They could have had them constructed way before, as they completed the land purchases and the zoning 3-5 years before starting construction. They just work on their own timelines.

[emmasensei]

I can't say much because I agreed to not reveal details, but I just participated in a rather intense paid focus group hosted by HEB about this exact project. In fact, we were told that we were the first of 9 focus groups dedicated to figuring out, essentially, how to lay out the interior of this store. It was a fascinating discussion. All this to say that this site/project has NOT been abandoned. At least, not yet.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I don't think a Central Market is needed there with Whole Foods down the street.

Different target markets. I love going to Central Market. Never go to Whole Wallet, er, I mean Foods.

[LongonBigD]

I don't think a Central Market is needed there with Whole Foods down the street.

Different target markets. I love going to Central Market. Never go to Whole Wallet, er, I mean Foods.

I agree. I have purchased maybe one time at WF in all the years since they came to Dallas, but shop often at CM, even if it means driving up to Lovers Ln (for now).

[LongonBigD]

I can't say much because I agreed to not reveal details, but I just participated in a rather intense paid focus group hosted by HEB about this exact project. In fact, we were told that we were the first of 9 focus groups dedicated to figuring out, essentially, how to lay out the interior of this store. It was a fascinating discussion. All this to say that this site/project has NOT been abandoned. At least, not yet.

I hope it came up what a nightmare the maze layout is for a consumer. Yeah, yeah, I get it—they want me to wander around and buy something I wasn’t planning to purchase. Just do what every other grocer does, put the meat, milk and eggs in the very back—works like a charm. Why reinvent the wheel?

[thelivingworld]

This is happening eventually. I think the landowners/developers on lower McKinney are doing some serious brainstorming about what the future of the street is until the next cycle hits. So many closed businesses and underutilized properties contemplating what to become. I think there's a lot of area-wide coordination and consideration being put into place during this downtime. This project doesn't exist in a vacuum. I think there's huge demand for anything worthwhile judging by how packed the popular bars are and how many people live here.

[rono3849]

This is happening eventually. I think the landowners/developers on lower McKinney are doing some serious brainstorming about what the future of the street is until the next cycle hits. So many closed businesses and underutilized properties contemplating what to become. I think there's a lot of area-wide coordination and consideration being put into place during this downtime. This project doesn't exist in a vacuum. I think there's huge demand for anything worthwhile judging by how packed the popular bars are and how many people live here.

With so much residential, both built and planned, you'd think there'd be few empty retail spots along McKinney, but to be honest, retail is very tough now. I don't think this will break ground for quite a long time, if ever. JMO.

[thelivingworld]

This is happening eventually. I think the landowners/developers on lower McKinney are doing some serious brainstorming about what the future of the street is until the next cycle hits. So many closed businesses and underutilized properties contemplating what to become. I think there's a lot of area-wide coordination and consideration being put into place during this downtime. This project doesn't exist in a vacuum. I think there's huge demand for anything worthwhile judging by how packed the popular bars are and how many people live here.

With so much residential, both built and planned, you'd think there'd be few empty retail spots along McKinney, but to be honest, retail is very tough now. I don't think this will break ground for quite a long time, if ever. JMO.

Anything that's new build seems inauthentic, so I'm super curious how the so called "Restaurant Collection" in their own single-story villa at the Quad will do. How much time has to pass before these hyper-corporatized places become accepted in a world of mass corporatization. There can only be so many executive lunch steak houses.

[emmasensei]

Small update: This project is nowhere near dead. I'm still working with HEB on the design/layout of the interior of this store (we have another discussion tomorrow, actually). Likely to be quite different from other CMs. These people are extremely methodical and determined to get the store exactly right.

[eburress]

^^ That's great! Thanks for the update!

[Cbdallas]

Wishing Godspeed for this project.