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Dallas Love Field People Mover

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 19 Jun 2020 02:35

quixomniac wrote:Great information, that's something Ive always wondered about the Boring Company and why he is so focused on people movers as opposed to rail.

Follow the money when wondering why companies do what they do. Elon Musk heads the Boring Company which digs tunnels. Elon Musk also heads Tesla, which makes and sells battery powered vehicles using rubber tires and not steel wheels for steel rails.
:roll:

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby TNWE » 19 Jun 2020 10:04

quixomniac wrote:
TNWE wrote:
The whole reason the Boring Co.'s tunnels are cheaper is the fact that they don't have to be designed to accommodate specialized electrical equipment or meet the relatively more precise tolerances for rail. Battery-powered rubber-tired vehicles don't need much besides the tunnel bore and a reasonably flat surface to run on. Rail tunnels on the other hand need to be built such that two rails are in perfect alignment with each other, and at a very specific slope based on the train's weight and the power the motors can put out without slipping. Cars can handle the occasional bump in the road and have more traction to stop/start/ascend large grades.

Add to that the long approaches (and therefore land) required for portals and the expense of rail tunneling grows, whereas the Boring Co. can basically drill a long tunnel and dot car elevators anywhere along the route where there's a 20'x20' patch of land and the demand for an access point.


Great information, that's something Ive always wondered about the Boring Company and why he is so focused on people movers as opposed to rail.


I mean, to some extent it's because Musk also has a company making electric vehicles and there are some efficiencies there. I guess in theory someone could hire the Boring Co. to dig tunnels, then have other contractors build the rail infra and vehicles that fit inside the tunnel, but those second two parts will start to run the costs up to the point you might as well have a "traditional" tunneling contractor use a larger TBM to allow for off-the-shelf rolling stock.

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gosspl
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby gosspl » 15 Nov 2020 11:22

bachmanlad wrote:
Parker Road wrote:I knew I wasn't the only person who's noticed the suspiciously slow speeds in the areas along the Orange Line with deferred stations! Carpenter Ranch and South Las Colinas in particular are excruciatingly slow to ride through.

Though to be honest, all of the newer sections of DART seem to be slower than their older counterparts... On the northwest and southeast corridors, as well as the new ends of the Blue line, it seems like trains slow significantly or come to a complete stop before pulling into stations, and I'm not sure why. Differences in signals or track quality? Maybe I'm just imagining things that aren't there, but I haven't noticed this phenomenon along the Red and Blue lines, which, granted, I use much more frequently.

Sorry if I'm carrying this discussion too far off topic!


I think it's because of the curves in those parts of those lines. Most of the Orange Line is very bendy and slow, and Hidden Ridge in particular is right before what must be the tightest or second tightest curve in the entire network. South Las Colinas is a straightaway between two steep curves that's just barely short enough to keep trains from accelerating, but long enough that it gets annoying. Same goes for both ends of the Blue Line and the SE end of the Green Line. All pretty spaghet. The segment between North Lake College and DFW, on the other hand, is straight most of the way, and it zooms along just fine. The Green Line is newer, but it's also mostly straight, so it doesn't have that problem either.


It is my understanding that it also has to do with the fact that the new sections of DART rail have moving block signaling which also limits the speed trains can go (you can hear the overspeed warning if you sit near the cab). On the old Red and Blue lines - it's fixed block. Train speed isn't really limited with technology. There are speed limit signs along the alignment, but operators can go 65 in a 55 if they want to. Trains have to pass block signals at certain times, which you could argue "limits" speed in one sense.

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby TNWE » 17 Nov 2020 14:59

gosspl wrote:It is my understanding that it also has to do with the fact that the new sections of DART rail have moving block signaling which also limits the speed trains can go (you can hear the overspeed warning if you sit near the cab). On the old Red and Blue lines - it's fixed block. Train speed isn't really limited with technology. There are speed limit signs along the alignment, but operators can go 65 in a 55 if they want to. Trains have to pass block signals at certain times, which you could argue "limits" speed in one sense.


Moving or Automatic block signals have nothing to do with the speed limits or controls - all it does is dynamically determine the signal aspect based on the position of the train ahead so there's always one "block" worth of space between trains. If the train ahead is going 20 MPH in a 55 MPH area due to some fault, all the trains behind it will eventually also be capped at 20 MPH. If the lead train is exceeding the limit, all the following trains would also be able to exceed the limit (from a signaling perspective).

The entire system has the same Automatic Train Protection controls in place, including an automatic stop for prolonged overspeed situations (I've been on Red Line trains in North Dallas that have been overspeed or missed stops and the operator has always gotten a phone call from dispatch). The speed limits on the Orange line are simply lower because it follows a more winding route with intersections in the Urban Center that are not gated and operators need to work based on Line of sight rules, not just signals. The same is true of the downtown transit mall - there is "signaling" in that the automotive red/yellow/green signals are translated into a Tram-style signal, but if there's a train occupying the track directly ahead, a "clear" aspect doesn't let you traverse the intersection.

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tamtagon
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby tamtagon » 17 Nov 2020 15:34

I thought the orange line moved slower to account for the stations which have been deferred. When the stations are eventually opened, the train schedule stays the same.

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Parker Road » 18 Nov 2020 08:51

It is my understanding that it also has to do with the fact that the new sections of DART rail have moving block signaling which also limits the speed trains can go (you can hear the overspeed warning if you sit near the cab). On the old Red and Blue lines - it's fixed block. Train speed isn't really limited with technology. There are speed limit signs along the alignment, but operators can go 65 in a 55 if they want to. Trains have to pass block signals at certain times, which you could argue "limits" speed in one sense.


http://position-light.blogspot.com/2020 ... thods.html

I did some quick Googling and found this page, which confirms your thoughts. I don't know too much about train signaling so it was a pretty enlightening read! It looks like TNWE's comment on ATC is true, but on the Red/Blue lines it can only be used to stop a train completely rather than enforce speed. This sentence in particular describes how I feel about the new sections, as I've always felt the original lines flow way better (like when entering stations):

It was also interesting to see how much train operation was being impacted by the speed enforcement with operators having to brake about 5mph past the speed target and then re-accelerate. This created a very jerky form of operating where as the lines without speed enforcement saw much smoother operation.
Last edited by Parker Road on 18 Nov 2020 09:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Parker Road » 18 Nov 2020 09:01

Also, to bring the discussion back to Love Field, I would like to see the 39 bus extended from Inwood station to the Love Field terminal, with frequencies updated to 20 minutes or better to replace the 524. That way airport-bound riders get a one-seat ride from downtown that's practically a straight shot up Cedar Springs, with a slight deviation to serve Inwood station.

Edit: And that's how it used to be before they introduced 524 in 2012. Why on earth would they make it less convenient?

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby TNWE » 19 Nov 2020 09:25

Parker Road wrote:Also, to bring the discussion back to Love Field, I would like to see the 39 bus extended from Inwood station to the Love Field terminal, with frequencies updated to 20 minutes or better to replace the 524. That way airport-bound riders get a one-seat ride from downtown that's practically a straight shot up Cedar Springs, with a slight deviation to serve Inwood station.

Edit: And that's how it used to be before they introduced 524 in 2012. Why on earth would they make it less convenient?

DART's strategy in the LRT-expansion era has been to offload as many bus trips as possible to LRT. I think Muncien had a rant on the old forum about DART eliminating the Las Colinas Transit Center <-> Downtown express route once the Orange Line was complete, even though the typical travel time between those endpoints actually increased using LRT (but of course it's a more cost-efficient mode of transit).

The 524 Love Link was the same kind of thing, meant to both push Love Field trips to use LRT, and also "simplify" the experience by creating a shuttle service between Inwood and Love Field that's similar to a Parking Spot-type experience that's familiar to people who aren't typical transit users. While it makes intermediate stops, the endpoints are the Airport and the Train station - no wondering if the #39 bus arriving is inbound or outbound, and nominally a more reliable service as it's not subject to traffic delays in Oak Lawn/Uptown.

Of course, in practice the Love Link shuttle is also unreliable and usually arrives just as a train is arriving, so short connections are impossible and, as you note, a lot of users would be better served by just taking a direct bus.

(Oh, and thanks for finding the details on the different "permissiveness" of the train control on the different lines - I do recall the Orange/Green Line segments being more jerky, but having to strictly avoid ever being overspeed explains the difference.

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saxman
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby saxman » 22 Nov 2020 18:33

Coming from the center of Plano, I've found that taking the 208 from NW Plano TC can be a bit faster than the Red Line. Of course I prefer to take the train, I have to admit the express bus is pretty darn quick and comfortable. Of course that assumes the DNT isn't too backed up.

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gosspl
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby gosspl » 28 Dec 2020 11:16



Thanks for the link!

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Redblock
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Redblock » 16 Jan 2021 10:48

This just popped up on my FB video feed. An 8 minute report from 1966 about a BBC employee using his feet and public transit to take a flight from London to Manchester. I guess it would be called a Vlog today. It is full of dry British humor. In most large cities today it would be the same challenge.

https://www.facebook.com/BBCArchive/vid ... 735477462/

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 17 Jan 2021 08:00

Redblock wrote:This just popped up on my FB video feed. An 8 minute report from 1966 about a BBC employee using his feet and public transit to take a flight from London to Manchester. I guess it would be called a Vlog today. It is full of dry British humor. In most large cities today it would be the same challenge.

https://www.facebook.com/BBCArchive/vid ... 735477462/


Yes, and from Dallas' suburbs with even worse services the same holds true.
Per Trainline, there are 7 ways to go from Putney to Heathrow.
https://www.rome2rio.com/s/Putney/Heathrow-England
RECOMMENDED OPTION
Subway, train • 44 min
Take the subway from East Putney station to Paddington station District Take the train from London Paddington to Heathrow Terminals 2 & 3 $9-$49
CHEAPEST OPTION
Line 220 bus, bus • 1h 46m
Take the line 220 bus from Putney, Brewhouse Lane to Hammersmith Bus Station 220 Take the bus from Hammersmith Bus Station to Heathrow Central Bus Station N9 $4
5 ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS
Train, line 285 bus • 46 min
Take the train from Putney to Feltham Take the line 285 bus from Feltham, High Street Feltham to Heathrow Central Bus Station 285$8 - $13
Taxi • 22 min
Take a taxi from Putney to Heathrow 14.6 miles$80 - $100
Drive • 22 min
Drive from Putney to Heathrow 14.6 miles$3 - $5
Shuttle • 21 min
Take a shuttle bus from Putney to London Heathrow Airport$55 - $80
Towncar • 21 min
Take a town car from Putney to London Heathrow Airport 14.4 miles$85 - $130

DART's one way train fare of $3 is far cheaper than London's $13 fare, although the bus fare are similar $3 vs $4.
Even in a metro area with relatively great transit like London, public transit can not compete with driving your own private vehicle elapse time wise. Why do so many expect different results in the USA?

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby Parker Road » 18 Jan 2021 16:47

electricron wrote:DART's one way train fare of $3 is far cheaper than London's $13 fare, although the bus fare are similar $3 vs $4.
Even in a metro area with relatively great transit like London, public transit can not compete with driving your own private vehicle elapse time wise. Why do so many expect different results in the USA?


Airports — especially huge busy peripheral ones like Heathrow — are sprawling by necessity, and as a result are antithetical to the land uses where transit works best. Of course it'll be faster to take a car (unless you're starting right at an express transit hub).

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Love Field People Mover

Postby electricron » 18 Jan 2021 17:36

Parker Road wrote:Airports — especially huge busy peripheral ones like Heathrow — are sprawling by necessity, and as a result are antithetical to the land uses where transit works best. Of course it'll be faster to take a car (unless you're starting right at an express transit hub).

Heathrow is more a kin to DFW than DAL airports. DAL is not as sprawling as DFW. Never-the-less, why it takes so long to reach Heathrow today and back in the 1960s is just as true in Dallas as it is in London. Spoke and hub transit based systems just do not serve destinations on the extremity of the spokes as well as as they do the hubs.
Let's look at DFW first. If you live next to the Orange Line in Irving, it is a fairly quick hop to DFW. If you live next to the Orange and Green Lines in the Design and Medical Center Districts, the hop is slightly longer if you catch an Orange Line train. But if you live next to the Green Line in Carrolton, Farmer's Branch, Fair Park, and Pleasant Grove, the trip is much longer because you have to make a transfer to an Orange Line train. The same is true if you live next to any other color line, in which case the transfer will likely to be made downtown.
Love Field is much better off being located nearer to the hub than the extremities. It is a fairly quick jump on both the Orange and Green Lines, and while you still must make a transfer from both the Red and Blue Lines downtown, the trip out from the hub is not that long. Never-the-less, Love Field is not serviced directly by light rail trains - so everyone has to make at least one transfer to a bus, and some two transfers.


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