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Dallas Area Rapid Transit

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THRILLHO
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby THRILLHO » 04 May 2020 12:38

A 15 year delay!? Wow.
Hopefully that's just the most pessimistic scenario they're considering.

Then again, I have my issues with the D2 project, so maybe this would give them enough time to come up with something better.

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 04 May 2020 13:26

Redblock wrote:Covid-19 to delay DART rail projects? Here is a report with a DART letter and Budger and Finance Committee presentation.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus ... s/2361863/


Not surprising - sales tax receipts are gonna take a big hit between the temporary retail closures and the shops that shut down for good as a result. Add to that the reduction in fares (yes, they "lose" money on fares, but revenue is revenue) as more people work from home for a prolonged period, and others start to distrust transit out of sanitary concerns. I don't think this will kill D2 for good, but it probably makes it a 50/50 proposition at this point. Remember that the timeline of the original LPA would have had D2 well underway and probably close to completion by now, but instead some loud people needed to have "a subway" and it's not likely to happen for another 5-10 years, if at all.

It's wild that not six months ago, people on here were writing obituaries for suburban car culture. Now it seems COVID-19 has put Urbanism on the ropes by undermining or outright destroying the "advantages" of urban life.

    -Short or walkable commutes - not relevant when your company realizes you can work from home most days
    -Walkable shops and restaurants - more impacted by social distancing and capacity limits than giant big box stores and suburban chains like applebees
    -Car-free life - suddenly any trip over a few miles requires sharing a transit vehicle with potentially hundreds of other people who could be asymptomatic carriers
    -Close-knit communities - the "Karen" stereotype has transformed from conservative suburbanites calling the cops on outsiders to the liberal urbanists reporting their neighbors for having people over or leaving the house for a non-essential reason (just look at the replies on Clay Jenkins' social media accounts - so many people want him to mete out harsh punishments for anyone caught outside)

itsjrd1964
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 06 May 2020 12:41

20200506_124150.jpg

The installation of the railside 'candlesticks' continues. This is the west side of the platform at the Walnut Hill (Red/Orange line) station.


20200506_124237.jpg

The east side of the same platform.


20200506_124304.jpg

A close-up, which includes a spray-painted spot placed in advance. That was the point that would orient the installers toward centering the set of 'candlesticks' correctly.

So far, I have only seen the newer placements here at Walnut Hill, as well as the Spring Valley station. None yet at Forest Lane, LBJ/Central, Arapaho Center, Galatyn Park, or CityLine/Bush.
(My short commute doesn't take me further than this part of Dallas and into Plano, so I don't know how much farther along DART has gotten on the rollout.)
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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 02 Jul 2020 10:47

DART's platform extension project has finally reached Cityplace/Uptown station: https://dart.org/rideralerts/fullra.asp?id=4974

On weekends through August, the Red line will operate on a single track between Mockingbird and Pearl, with the Blue line turning around at those stations and the Orange Line only running DFW-Bachman.

I guess with the already-reduced frequency due to COVID, they're able to maintain Red Line frequencies with single-tracking. I'm not sure why single-tracking is required, as they never did that with above-ground stations being modified. My understanding is that there's no additional tunneling needed to accommodate longer trains, and this work is purely to rebuild the platform so the "humps" are aligned correctly with the center doors of a 3 car train. The only thing I can think of is they're raising the entire platform area to level-boarding height, but that would cause issues with the stairs/escalators...

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Redblock
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 02 Jul 2020 12:03

The platform is being extending northward. This requires the removal of a cement block wall. One of the tracks needs to be completely closed while this is done.

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 02 Jul 2020 12:11

Redblock wrote:The platform is being extending northward. This requires the removal of a cement block wall. One of the tracks needs to be completely closed while this is done.


Gotcha - so the station cutout was dug out to accommodate longer trains, but the extra portion was walled off?

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 02 Jul 2020 23:11

TNWE wrote:Gotcha - so the station cutout was dug out to accommodate longer trains, but the extra portion was walled off?


Yes. If you look outside the windows on the left side of a train when arriving (southbound) or departing (northbound), you can see the area. Until last month or so, there was no finishing on the walls, since it wasn't accessible except to maintenance staff. Now they've begun putting up the framework to finish out the walls to match the open part of the station. This will also mean you won't be able to see the cinderblock wall blocking off the unused landing area for the north mezzanine.
cityplace layout.jpg

I think I got this from the old forum. The false walls are about 2/3rds or 3/4ths of the way up the platform. As fully built out, the platform would be symmetrical north to south; it's why the tilework designs on the walls across the tracks seem cut off.

It's interesting that the plan was originally build out one entrance at both ends; I guess they would've finished out the full length of the station.
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I45Tex
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby I45Tex » 03 Jul 2020 02:29

Did you also have a similar diagram for the deferred Knox-Henderson subway station, northsouth?

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 03 Jul 2020 12:07

No, Only for Cityplace. I tried overlaying the diagram on an overhead view of the Knox/Henderson area, but the locations of the vents and exits don't line up. On one of the DART board's presentations about the 2045 plan a few months ago, there was mention of possibly building out Knox/Henderson station with an rendering of the 3D layout of the station, and it didn't match Cityplace at all. I don't know if is because it was always set up differently, or if because they never dug out all the tunnels in the first place, it would be easier to do a different layout now. I think it had an entrance on either side of Central, with elevators and stairs going straight down to the mezzanine level below the main lanes of Central (as opposed to the diagonal ones at Cityplace), a straight mezzanine between the entrance shafts, and several elevators placed in the middle, going down to the middle of the platforms.

I45Tex
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby I45Tex » 04 Jul 2020 11:02

Interesting, thanks!

A dream project of mine, if I had a TBM lying around, could be to use the vacant K-H cavern and build a D2.5 subway from there down to Market Center with an intermediate stop around Oak Lawn @ Cedar Springs...

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby dfwcre8tive » 07 Jul 2020 12:44

I45Tex wrote:Did you also have a similar diagram for the deferred Knox-Henderson subway station, northsouth?


Here are some other diagrams. All are in the Dallas Public Library available for research (where I found these originally).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfwcre8ti ... 842236092/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfwcre8ti ... 842236092/

And an old proposal.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dfwcre8ti ... 842236092/

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 07 Jul 2020 21:48

Ah, so that's where I got it from. Thanks for finding those to begin with.

Looking around your flickr account and dear god that Mill Creek Parkway proposal. Let's be glad that not everything leaves the drawing board.

itsjrd1964
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 13 Aug 2020 13:28

DART has begun placing sanitizer and mask dispensers on every light rail train and streetcar. The picture shows the dispensers mounted near an entrance.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/08/12/dar ... -pandemic/

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 13 Aug 2020 15:28

itsjrd1964 wrote:DART has begun placing sanitizer and mask dispensers on every light rail train and streetcar. The picture shows the dispensers mounted near an entrance.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2020/08/12/dar ... -pandemic/


Curious how long that will last- bus operators providing masks to passengers who don't have one is fine, but just having an unattended dispenser is asking for trouble. I've lost track of the times I've seen people try grab a handful of masks at stores or businesses where someone is handing them out. I imagine some enterprising person is going to turn DART's good deed into a nice little business reselling masks for $3 a pop

itsjrd1964
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 14 Aug 2020 04:55

They have a hard enough time keeping the bus/rail timetable racks on board stocked up without somebody making a mess of them, using them for liners when they sit in the seats (or on the benches at bus stops/rail station platforms), or stuffing them with trash. I have a feeling DART will need a bigger budget for this venture than they realize; just like with the rail station elevator/escalator maintenance.

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Redblock
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 02 Nov 2020 11:59

DART President Gary Thomas to retire.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ ... ire--61981

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Cbdallas
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Cbdallas » 02 Nov 2020 16:03

I rode the red line from downtown to Cityplace this past Saturday out for a long walk and decided to move up to the West Village along our walk. Had not been on the train for a bit due to Covid but it was fine mask on etc. Train smelled clean. Cityplace escalators were working which was a nice surprise. My Go pass app seemed to be better since I last used as well very easy to buy a ticket.

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 16 Nov 2020 20:26

Mentioned this in another thread, but will bump it here since it's kinda dead.

https://twitter.com/humantransit/status ... 0400171008
From Jarrett Walker on Twitter:
Dallas bus network redesign: The Board has given direction on how the balance the competing goals of ridership and coverage, and we have now started drafting a proposed plan. @dartmedia

I don't see anything after a quick scan on DART's website, but if anybody has more information on the Board's decision I'd love to hear about it! :D

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 17 Nov 2020 18:53

Parker Road wrote:Mentioned this in another thread, but will bump it here since it's kinda dead.

https://twitter.com/humantransit/status ... 0400171008
From Jarrett Walker on Twitter:
Dallas bus network redesign: The Board has given direction on how the balance the competing goals of ridership and coverage, and we have now started drafting a proposed plan. @dartmedia

I don't see anything after a quick scan on DART's website, but if anybody has more information on the Board's decision I'd love to hear about it! :D


https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/wholeitem11_10nov20.pdf
Here's the DART Board's most recent briefing on it. Also, here's their presentation to Dallas City Council yesterday, similar presentation but with some differences.

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 18 Nov 2020 08:16

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/wholeitem11_10nov20.pdf
Here's the DART Board's most recent briefing on it. Also, here's their presentation to Dallas City Council yesterday, similar presentation but with some differences.

Great, thank you!

The City Council presentation is particularly interesting. I'm surprised the share of survey respondents who ride transit frequently is as low as 40%, and that "high coverage" was the design concept that got the highest plurality of votes (31%). Really goes to show how spread out the service needs are here, especially with our tiny fleet.

Look forward to seeing how the frequent routes turn out.

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 23 Nov 2020 19:03

Something new today: the train I was on this evening had LED destination signs in place of the old-fashioned scrolling ones. I'd seen references in DART budgets in the last year or two to starting on replacing the signs, but didn't know if it'd been deferred due to COVID. It was an Orange line train (cycle for the words was 2 seconds ORANGE LINE, 1 second PARKER, 1 second ROAD), so I couldn't tell if the sign was capable of producing colors other than orange (i.e. blue text for the Blue line).
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itsjrd1964
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 24 Nov 2020 06:56

northsouth wrote:Something new today: the train I was on this evening had LED destination signs in place of the old-fashioned scrolling ones. I'd seen references in DART budgets in the last year or two to starting on replacing the signs, but didn't know if it'd been deferred due to COVID. It was an Orange line train (cycle for the words was 2 seconds ORANGE LINE, 1 second PARKER, 1 second ROAD), so I couldn't tell if the sign was capable of producing colors other than orange (i.e. blue text for the Blue line).


*Very* good idea!! Should have already been done.

Many of the old scroll signs for the Orange trains really weren't too discernable from the Red ones. At least with the LED approach (both spelling it out and the coloring) there's a lot less question whether you're seeing an Orange train or a Red one.

Another reason the change is better: the scrolling signs would often get stuck, more often than not on the wrong color, wrong destination, or even better, upside down!

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 24 Nov 2020 11:12

The way DART is structured, allocating time and space to the line color information seems rather pointless. When you're downtown, all Parker Road-bound trains make the same stops, regardless of whether they came from Westmoreland or DFW Airport. I'd rather have these signs display a single consistent (if abbreviated) message, and express the line color through colored text (if possible) and the automated announcements.

You love to see it though, for sure. Big operational improvement, and they look good on the SLRVs too!

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 24 Nov 2020 18:53

The fact that it does display what the line is instead of just the destination makes me think that the LEDs are in fact monochrome. Looking at them up close yesterday, I couldn't discern any individual red/green/blue LEDs making up a larger pixel. Time will tell, I guess.

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Redblock
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Redblock » 25 Nov 2020 15:02

I caught DART LRV 135 today. Its LED display provided a sensory disconnect. It showed RED LINE in red letters when the train was a actually running as an Orange Line train turning back at LBJ/Central station.

Operator or system problem, I guess.

Tap the link and then the photo for a short video.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hnLFgAYHNpASQFjn7

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 25 Nov 2020 16:31

I saw it today too. What it is is that they have replicated an issue with the old signs in that they never made an Orange LBJ/Central sign, only a Red one.

As I remember it, when they were planning the Green and Orange lines, the idea was that the Orange line would run with the Green line south of Downtown as well as north of it, branching off at Lawnview to go along Scyene (and to Mesquite if it ever joined DART); but although this extension would be built at a later date, they would still run the trains to Lawnview for whatever various reasons. Additionally, some trains would run up the Red line to Parker Road during rush hour to provide extra trains (by this point, they were running extra Red line trains during rush hour). But when the 2008 financial crisis hit, a lot of the big mid-long term plans announced in 2006 (like the Scyene branch) were put on hold. At some point, they decided that the Orange line would run up the Red line full time, with non-rush hour trains turning around at LBJ/Central. This decision must've been made after the order was finalized for the new sign rolls that would accompany the Green and Orange lines. Nowadays, the only time the Lawnview sign is used is during the State Fair schedule: normally, two Orange line trains at the end of the morning rush hour terminate at Fair Park, since they need fewer trains after that time; but during the State Fair, one of those trains instead keeps going through to Lawnview, where it turns around and become a Green line insert train running between there and Victory to provide extra service between Downtown and Fair Park.

It would seem they've simply copied the list of station names and colors from the existing rolls, but neglected to add in an Orange LBJ/Central setting. Good news is that it should be fairly easy for them to rectify this, but knowing how things go, I wouldn't be surprised if they never took care of it.

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 25 Nov 2020 17:26

Redblock wrote:https://photos.app.goo.gl/hnLFgAYHNpASQFjn7

Well now I'm... less enthralled with these. Hopefully at least they get the red/orange thing sorted out, if they don't just abandon signing the color altogether.

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 30 Nov 2020 23:29

northsouth wrote:I saw it today too. What it is is that they have replicated an issue with the old signs in that they never made an Orange LBJ/Central sign, only a Red one.
>cut<
This decision must've been made after the order was finalized for the new sign rolls that would accompany the Green and Orange lines.
>cut<
It would seem they've simply copied the list of station names and colors from the existing rolls, but neglected to add in an Orange LBJ/Central setting. Good news is that it should be fairly easy for them to rectify this, but knowing how things go, I wouldn't be surprised if they never took care of it.


I'm not the least bit surprised that DART would spend all this money on a high-tech solution, then turn around and make it a perfect replica of the broken physical solution. :roll:

And Parker Road (the poster) is right that the line color really isn't relevant as long as the destination sign is correct - if you need to go anywhere between Lovers Lane and Parker Road, you can be sure that any Parker Road (the station) bound train will get you there, regardless of where it started its run. The color designation of each line is just a helpful heuristic (it's easy to give someone directions by telling them which color line to take) but as I've remarked before, there's no intrinsic link between the line color and the physical rails that it follows. If they wanted to, they could redesign the system so trains from UNT-Dallas, Westmoreland, and DFW Airport all terminate at Parker Road, trains from North Carrollton alternating between terminating at Buckner or Rowlett, etc, but DART seems more concerned with not making someone who rode DART once back in 2005 learn a new map than actually innovating in how they route trains over their tracks.

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f4shionablecha0s
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby f4shionablecha0s » 01 Dec 2020 11:03

Don't get me started on DART and digital signage. The platform signs have said just the line color for years, which is useless when you've got rush hour service on the orange line and late night service that terminates at the train yards. They can waste billions on boondoggles like the silver line but can't hire a few consultant programmers to revise an existing system for relative peanuts... or do none of their leaders actually ride so they don't realize this is even a problem?

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 01 Dec 2020 15:24

DART light rail trains roll signs can hold around 26 destinations.
DART has 63 stations, there is no way they can include all the stations on a single roll. So which stations would you include with the many colors.
Let's try to include all the stations that trains may terminate their run on a regular basis, even a few times a year.
The first 8 are easy, the end stations of every color line.
Red
1) Westmoreland
2) Parker
Blue
3) UNT Dallas
4) Rowlett
Green
5) N. Carrolton/Frankford
6) Buckner
Orange
7) DFW
8) Pearl
Then you would include the station locales where trains usually end services before entering their maintenance depots.
9) Cedars (Red)
10) Cedars (Blue)
11) Bachman (Orange)
12) Bachman (Green)
Then you would include Special destinations for Special trains
13) Fair Park (Green)
14) Fair Park (Red)
15) Fair Park (Blue)
16) Victory (Green)
17) Victory (Orange)
18) Victory (Red)
19) Victory (Blue)
20) MLK Jr (Green)
21) MLK Jr (Red)
22) MLK Jr (Blue)
Then the obligatory purposes trains
23) Special
24) Out of Service
That leaves just two destinations left*
25)* LBJ/Central (Orange)
26)* Parker (Orange)
25)* Fair Park (Orange)
26)* MLK Jr (Orange)

The question that needs to be answered is which patrons would the roll signs help most, those heading for special events at Fair Park or those commuting during rush hour every day? When is there the most confusion?

Maybe someone knows precisely how many destinations can be placed on a roll, and exactly which stations are on DART's rolls. I'll admit, I do not know exactly, but there is logic above and some ancient information obtained from

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dallas-Texas-D ... 7675.l2557

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 01 Dec 2020 18:05

f4shionablecha0s wrote:Don't get me started on DART and digital signage. The platform signs have said just the line color for years, which is useless when you've got rush hour service on the orange line and late night service that terminates at the train yards. They can waste billions on boondoggles like the silver line but can't hire a few consultant programmers to revise an existing system for relative peanuts... or do none of their leaders actually ride so they don't realize this is even a problem?


It's sooo irritating. Not too long ago I was at at the northbound platform at St. Paul, and the countdown clock indicated an "Orange Line" train as next to arrive. Of course, one would expect it to run up the North Central line to either LBJ/Central or Parker (which in itself is annoying), so it would be the obvious choice for a rider heading that way. What do you know—the train is signed for Fair Park, so it stops at one station of the seven+ that are advertised, and now you're waiting ten extra minutes.

DART's communication in general could use a lot of work. On the trains their automated announcements are frustratingly verbose, and it's gotten worse over time IMO. I'm pretty sure the lady who records them writes the script, because she also does the ones on Texrail and those are even worse.

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 01 Dec 2020 18:41

electricron wrote:Then you would include the station locales where trains usually end services before entering their maintenance depots.
9) Cedars (Red)
10) Cedars (Blue)
11) Bachman (Orange)
12) Bachman (Green)

We would also need to add the stations on the outbound sides. You'd need:
- Walnut Hill/Denton (Green)
- 8th and Corinth (could have independent Red/Blue signs, but really not needed since they don't interact)

electricron wrote:Then you would include Special destinations for Special trains
13) Fair Park (Green)
14) Fair Park (Red)
15) Fair Park (Blue)
16) Victory (Green)
17) Victory (Orange)
18) Victory (Red)
19) Victory (Blue)
20) MLK Jr (Green)
21) MLK Jr (Red)
22) MLK Jr (Blue)

These don't need to be in colors (save for maybe Fair Park). Special event service is deviatory enough for a neutral scheme, and a white sign offers more flexibility anyway. This frees up space for 7 more signs. Also, when does special event service ever end at MLK? That station should just keep a green sign, for yard-bound services from Buckner. Then add Orange signs for Parker and LBJ, and neutral signs for Pearl, Mockingbird, and West End for tunnel or downtown disruptions. There may be a station or two I'm missing here too.

Fortunately, this constraint will be removed when electronic signs are rolled out. Pun not intended. :)

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 01 Dec 2020 19:28

Here's my list of signs I've seen over the last few years. One thing malfunctioning signs are good for are showing rarely used signs. Also, trains coming into DFW run through just about the entire roll in the process of changing from DFW to Not in Service (this list isn't in that order).

1 - Westmoreland (Red)
2 - 8th & Corinth (Red)
3 - Cedars (Red)
4 - Walnut Hill (Red)
5 - LBJ/Central (Red)
6 - Parker Road (Red)
7 - UNT (Blue)
8 - Ledbetter (Blue)
9 - 8th & Corinth (Blue)
10 - Cedars (Blue)
11 - Dwntn Garland (Blue)
12 - Rowlett (Blue)
13 - Buckner (Green)
14 - Lawnview (Green)
15 - MLK (Green)
16 - Fair Park (Green)
17 - Victory (Green)
18 - Bachman (Green)
19 - W-Hill/Denton (Green)
20 - N. Carrollton (Green)
21 - Parker Road (Orange)
22 - Lawnview (Orange)
23 - Bachman (Orange)
24 - Belt Line (Orange)
25 - DFW (Orange)
26 - Pearl (white)
27 - Fair Park (white)
28 - Not in Service (black)
29 - Special (black)
30 - Express (black)

Some oddities:

- The Walnut Hill sign seems to have replaced Park Lane. I guess they decided that it would serve as a better short-turn terminus than Park Lane for some reason, even though Park Lane has a double crossover much closer.

- Last year on the day of the Texas/OU game, a southbound train I saw in Richardson had a Special sign (might've been the express one, memory is a bit foggy). Either way, these two aren't normally used.

- Orange Lawnview sign, I've explained my thinking in my previous post.

- White Fair Park seems mainly to be used for trains terminating at Fair Park that aren't Green line. A few Orange line trains, and some of the last few Red and Blue line trains at the end of service at night all do this.

I know that an older roll had LBJ/Skillman on it (there's also a photo out there with Skillman/Miller on it instead), but there's a chance it's still on there; can't remember for certain. Keep your eyes peeled looking at messed up signs.

electricron wrote:
Maybe someone knows precisely how many destinations can be placed on a roll, and exactly which stations are on DART's rolls. I'll admit, I do not know exactly, but there is logic above and some ancient information obtained from

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dallas-Texas-D ... 7675.l2557


It would seem that 26 is not the upper limit, but maybe 30; if there are still LBJ/Skillman signs, it would seem more likely that that the limit would be 32 instead of 31, but I'm not sure what would be taking that last spot. Older rolls had a black sign that said DART, so that might still be on it. Also wow that sign with Park Lane in Blue, looks like they hadn't ruled out that service pattern initially.

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Parker Road
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby Parker Road » 01 Dec 2020 20:07

northsouth wrote:I know that an older roll had LBJ/Skillman on it (there's also a photo out there with Skillman/Miller on it instead), but there's a chance it's still on there; can't remember for certain. Keep your eyes peeled looking at messed up signs.


Skillman/Miller?? That is spicy. Would love to see the photo. Was that a planned name for LBJ/Skillman?

I faintly remember when the Parker Road rollsigns actually spelled out "ROAD" instead of abbreviating it. If it wasn't for that one Mockingbird photo on DART's Wikipedia page, I'd think it was a false memory.

Also, the database DART uses on Google Maps is probably the same one they use for their rollsigns. The colors on their timetables generally match the trains... except for the "LBJ/Central–Red" and "Fair Park–White" services!

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby CTroyMathis » 01 Dec 2020 20:36

I have a late '90s roll from DART. It is freaking long (way longer than the ebay link above) and really can't be unfurled inside the home. And, it's 20+ years old without extra lines obviously. I'll try to find some pictures I took when I acquired it or do some new ones!

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 01 Dec 2020 23:29

Parker Road wrote:Skillman/Miller?? That is spicy. Would love to see the photo. Was that a planned name for LBJ/Skillman?


Here's one. I don't think I've been able to track down any sources old enough to show it as the old name during planning; not much online from that time.

While trying to track down where I remembered seeing this, I actually found a few others on another site. Some sources for vintage DART pics:
http://www.jtbell.net/transit/Dallas/DART/ This one has two more pics with Skillman/Miller signs. Seen on these but not that other one are small signs placed in the windshield with the correct station name, as a temporary measure. Similar to how when the Orange line stopped at Irving Convention Center for a few months before the line on to Belt Line opened. One pic shows a train with a windshield sign even though the main sign is correct.
https://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/DART_Dallas_Area_Rapid_Transit
http://ktransit.com/transit/NAmerica/uscentral/dallas/dallas_lr.htm
http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net./dr423.htm
http://www.newdavesrailpix.com/odds/tx/tx.htm#dart

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 02 Dec 2020 10:39

northsouth wrote: Also wow that sign with Park Lane in Blue, looks like they hadn't ruled out that service pattern initially.


The old temporary platform from the starter system still exists (https://goo.gl/maps/PZDWvGHkVj6ACYkb7) and theoretically could be put back into service if they installed TVMs and opened up some pedestrian access routes (In the picture you can see a rail maintenance vehicle stored there, and the OLE is still present so everything appears to still be connected). It's arguably more convenient to the Shops at Park Lane, if a little out of the way. Would be an interesting use case for St. Patrick's day, or to stable extra State Fair special trains that won't get filled up by the time they reach Mockingbird.

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 02 Dec 2020 19:51

northsouth wrote:Here's my list of signs I've seen over the last few years. One thing malfunctioning signs are good for are showing rarely used signs. Also, trains coming into DFW run through just about the entire roll in the process of changing from DFW to Not in Service (this list isn't in that order).

1 - Westmoreland (Red)
2 - 8th & Corinth (Red)
3 - Cedars (Red)
4 - Walnut Hill (Red)
5 - LBJ/Central (Red)
6 - Parker Road (Red)
7 - UNT (Blue)
8 - Ledbetter (Blue)
9 - 8th & Corinth (Blue)
10 - Cedars (Blue)
11 - Dwntn Garland (Blue)
12 - Rowlett (Blue)
13 - Buckner (Green)
14 - Lawnview (Green)
15 - MLK (Green)
16 - Fair Park (Green)
17 - Victory (Green)
18 - Bachman (Green)
19 - W-Hill/Denton (Green)
20 - N. Carrollton (Green)
21 - Parker Road (Orange)
22 - Lawnview (Orange)
23 - Bachman (Orange)
24 - Belt Line (Orange)
25 - DFW (Orange)
26 - Pearl (white)
27 - Fair Park (white)
28 - Not in Service (black)
29 - Special (black)
30 - Express (black)

Some oddities:
- The Walnut Hill sign seems to have replaced Park Lane. I guess they decided that it would serve as a better short-turn terminus than Park Lane for some reason, even though Park Lane has a double crossover much closer.
- Last year on the day of the Texas/OU game, a southbound train I saw in Richardson had a Special sign (might've been the express one, memory is a bit foggy). Either way, these two aren't normally used.
- Orange Lawnview sign, I've explained my thinking in my previous post.
- White Fair Park seems mainly to be used for trains terminating at Fair Park that aren't Green line. A few Orange line trains, and some of the last few Red and Blue line trains at the end of service at night all do this.

It would seem that 26 is not the upper limit, but maybe 30; if there are still LBJ/Skillman signs, it would seem more likely that that the limit would be 32 instead of 31, but I'm not sure what would be taking that last spot. Older rolls had a black sign that said DART, so that might still be on it. Also wow that sign with Park Lane in Blue, looks like they hadn't ruled out that service pattern initially.

Thanks for your reply and efforts over the years making this list.
The thing I would like to point out is the stations on your list with different colors on the roll.
8th and Corinth with red and blue
Cedars with red and blue
Bachman with green and orange
Parker Road with red and orange
Fair Park with green and white

Just 5 of the 63 stations are listed with two different colors on your list.
3 of these 5 are located near maintenance depots and yards, 1 for the interlining of orange trains onto the red line, and 1 for Fair Park.

They did Fair Park much better than me and included more stations along each line than what I thought was necessary. But many of those stations are located immediately prior to the end of the line stations, probably to account for early morning trains pre-stationing prior to start of service daily.

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 03 Dec 2020 12:35

electricron wrote:Thanks for your reply and efforts over the years making this list.
The thing I would like to point out is the stations on your list with different colors on the roll.
8th and Corinth with red and blue
Cedars with red and blue
Bachman with green and orange
Parker Road with red and orange
Fair Park with green and white

Just 5 of the 63 stations are listed with two different colors on your list.
3 of these 5 are located near maintenance depots and yards, 1 for the interlining of orange trains onto the red line, and 1 for Fair Park.

They did Fair Park much better than me and included more stations along each line than what I thought was necessary. But many of those stations are located immediately prior to the end of the line stations, probably to account for early morning trains pre-stationing prior to start of service daily.

I'm still a little confused by the logic of having different color signs for those (Fair Park as a white background makes sense) because the radial/diverging network means there's no circumstance where the train would take a different path to, say Cedars, depending on whether it's a Red line or Blue line train. When (or more likely, If) D2 gets built, you could hypothetically have a situation where some Bachman-bound trains are routed via the subway and others via the transit mall, but as it is currently planned, both the Green and Orange lines would normally use the subway, so the color doesn't help there.

I guess what I'm saying is, the fact that the new LED signs can't display different colors doesn't really matter - all you need to know is the terminus and whether your destination is along the way. Of course, there's probably some crank that shows up at every DART board meeting that really really likes the color Blue and will only ride Blue line trains from Mockingbird to West End even if it means waiting an hour... :lol:

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CTroyMathis
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby CTroyMathis » 03 Dec 2020 12:37

Of course, there's probably some crank that shows up at every DART board meeting that really really likes the color Blue and will only ride Blue line trains from Mockingbird to West End even if it means waiting an hour... :lol:

Lol.

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 05 Dec 2020 00:10

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/planningitem7_08dec20.pdf
Some interesting bits:

-Instead of just extending the platforms and adding/moving humps, 5 stations (Mockingbird, 8th & Corinth, Westmoreland, LBJ/Skillman, Downtown Garland) will have full platform raises (as did Ledbetter, Union, and the transit mall stations). I can't identify any unifying factors explaining why these are being done this way, other than that they are 5 out of the 6 stations in the project that haven't either been completed or begun construction, according to a chart in the presentation.

-Hidden Ridge station is taking shape, but is behind schedule. My guess it that COVID is probably the main culprit for disrupting construction in the spring, but you can't rule out unhelpful weather or delays in starting construction due to issues lining up the money.

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joshua.dodd
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby joshua.dodd » 05 Dec 2020 04:29

What's the chances of DART extending rail service to Cedar Hill?

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electricron
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby electricron » 05 Dec 2020 08:28

joshua.dodd wrote:What's the chances of DART extending rail service to Cedar Hill?

As long as Duncanville and Cedar Hill remain non member cities, zero.

Light rail lines are fairly expensive to build, DART needs sales taxes revenues to lessen the financial blow. DART will not spend money in non member cities while there are many projects yet to spend in member cities.

The best service non member cities should expect is a bus line the non member cities are willing to fully subsidize.

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TNWE
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby TNWE » 07 Dec 2020 22:40

northsouth wrote:https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/planningitem7_08dec20.pdf
Some interesting bits:

-Instead of just extending the platforms and adding/moving humps, 5 stations (Mockingbird, 8th & Corinth, Westmoreland, LBJ/Skillman, Downtown Garland) will have full platform raises (as did Ledbetter, Union, and the transit mall stations). I can't identify any unifying factors explaining why these are being done this way, other than that they are 5 out of the 6 stations in the project that haven't either been completed or begun construction, according to a chart in the presentation.

-Hidden Ridge station is taking shape, but is behind schedule. My guess it that COVID is probably the main culprit for disrupting construction in the spring, but you can't rule out unhelpful weather or delays in starting construction due to issues lining up the money.

Seems like that item got pulled down from the DART site - it's no longer there and the link points to an error page.

Only thing I can think of is maybe there's something to do with signal/block divisions relative to the platform ends, where it may be beneficial to allow a 1 or 2 car train to stop mid-platform rather than at the extreme end. Still unclear why that wasn't the plan from the get-go, as I'd expect $160 million should have covered raising all of the platforms to the new level boarding height, particularly for stations where the existing "humps" would need to be moved anyway (I think there are some stations where the platform was already long enough and they just needed to add one hump but not make changes to the others).

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 08 Dec 2020 16:43

That's odd, link works just fine for me.

From my experience, post-construction at Park Lane, southbound trains stop at the first two humps (instead of going to the furthest hump as seems to be normal at most stations), but they must not have moved a train detection circuit from the far end of the platform, since departing trains move forward a bit, wait, and then get going again.

When they announced this program, they made it seem like they were raising all the platforms, so when they started just moving the humps around I was surprised. The aerial stations were built long enough in the first place (much harder to extend them after the fact), and it seems to me that Mockingbird is long enough as well, and has room at one end for another hump. The elevator and escalators would make raising the whole platform difficult - you would need to leave the entrances at existing level and ramp up to the rest of the platform.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 16 Dec 2020 18:49

northsouth wrote:1 - Westmoreland (Red)
2 - 8th & Corinth (Red)
3 - Cedars (Red)
4 - Walnut Hill (Red)
5 - LBJ/Central (Red)
6 - Parker Road (Red)
7 - UNT (Blue)
8 - Ledbetter (Blue)
9 - 8th & Corinth (Blue)
10 - Cedars (Blue)
11 - Dwntn Garland (Blue)
12 - Rowlett (Blue)
13 - Buckner (Green)
14 - Lawnview (Green)
15 - MLK (Green)
16 - Fair Park (Green)
17 - Victory (Green)
18 - Bachman (Green)
19 - W-Hill/Denton (Green)
20 - N. Carrollton (Green)
21 - Parker Road (Orange)
22 - Lawnview (Orange)
23 - Bachman (Orange)
24 - Belt Line (Orange)
25 - DFW (Orange)
26 - Pearl (white)
27 - Fair Park (white)
28 - Victory (white)
29 - Not in Service (black)
30 - Special (black)
31 - Express (black)

Addendum - had forgotten about there being a Victory sign in white as well. Was reminded today by a train with a sign stuck on it. So the current rolls have 31 (or maybe 32)

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 14 Jan 2021 18:56

northsouth wrote:
northsouth wrote:1 - Westmoreland (Red)
2 - 8th & Corinth (Red)
3 - Cedars (Red)
4 - Walnut Hill (Red)
5 - LBJ/Central (Red)
6 - Parker Road (Red)
7 - UNT (Blue)
8 - Ledbetter (Blue)
9 - 8th & Corinth (Blue)
10 - Cedars (Blue)
11 - LBJ/Skillman (Blue)
12 - Dwntn Garland (Blue)
13 - Rowlett (Blue)
14 - Buckner (Green)
15 - Lawnview (Green)
16 - MLK (Green)
17 - Fair Park (Green)
18 - Victory (Green)
19 - Bachman (Green)
20 - W-Hill/Denton (Green)
21 - N. Carrollton (Green)
22 - Parker Road (Orange)
23 - Lawnview (Orange)
24 - Bachman (Orange)
25 - Belt Line (Orange)
26 - DFW (Orange)
27 - Pearl (white)
28 - Fair Park (white)
29 - Victory (white)
30 - Not in Service (black)
31 - Special (black)
32 - Express (black)

Addendum - had forgotten about there being a Victory sign in white as well. Was reminded today by a train with a sign stuck on it. So the current rolls have 31 (or maybe 32)

Further addendum - the other day I saw a train with an LBJ/Skillman sign stuck in view, so it is 32 total signs on the roll. Also saw the pair of cars with the LED signs have their first malfunction: whole signs lit up orange, every sign on the train.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby 754 » 14 Jan 2021 19:10

northsouth wrote:
northsouth wrote:
northsouth wrote:1 - Westmoreland (Red)
2 - 8th & Corinth (Red)
3 - Cedars (Red)
4 - Walnut Hill (Red)
5 - LBJ/Central (Red)
6 - Parker Road (Red)
7 - UNT (Blue)
8 - Ledbetter (Blue)
9 - 8th & Corinth (Blue)
10 - Cedars (Blue)
11 - LBJ/Skillman (Blue)
12 - Dwntn Garland (Blue)
13 - Rowlett (Blue)
14 - Buckner (Green)
15 - Lawnview (Green)
16 - MLK (Green)
17 - Fair Park (Green)
18 - Victory (Green)
19 - Bachman (Green)
20 - W-Hill/Denton (Green)
21 - N. Carrollton (Green)
22 - Parker Road (Orange)
23 - Lawnview (Orange)
24 - Bachman (Orange)
25 - Belt Line (Orange)
26 - DFW (Orange)
27 - Pearl (white)
28 - Fair Park (white)
29 - Victory (white)
30 - Not in Service (black)
31 - Special (black)
32 - Express (black)

Addendum - had forgotten about there being a Victory sign in white as well. Was reminded today by a train with a sign stuck on it. So the current rolls have 31 (or maybe 32)

Further addendum - the other day I saw a train with an LBJ/Skillman sign stuck in view, so it is 32 total signs on the roll. Also saw the pair of cars with the LED signs have their first malfunction: whole signs lit up orange, every sign on the train.


I Would not say that this is a malfunction personally I saw this pair twice this week and I assumed it was the Orange Blank Code instead of having the RED LINE LBJ CENTRAl because that just kind of throws the whole thing off. I thought it was pretty interesting to see a different sign besides the LBJ/Central And DFW. I also was lucky to see the LED LRVS #222&#135 Parker Road Bound in rush hour on the orange line I was able to get a video and fairly decent pictures I may post later on. The thing that is intersting to me is how I've just about always seen the pair Running the orange line never on the blue or green line. I have seen one redline cedars bound of the pair at one point as well. Regardless I personally liked the Orange Blank setting then the normal red LBJ/Central setting personally.

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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby itsjrd1964 » 15 Jan 2021 14:40

I just saw a train yesterday downtown that is still doing
RED LINE
LBJ/CENTRAL
on its new LED display, even though it's supposed to be an Orange Line train.

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northsouth
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Re: Dallas Area Rapid Transit

Postby northsouth » 21 Jan 2021 19:00

https://www.dart.org/about/inmotion/winter21/2.asp

Current projected opening dates for projects under construction:
-Hidden Ridge Station - first half of this year
-Platform Extensions - late fall of this year
-Silver Line - March 2023


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