Silver Line

[TNWE]

The main issue with this idea is that it requires significant aerial construction at both the DFW and Plano ends, full overhead electrification, and (most difficult) closing the Cotton Belt line to all freight traffic. Right now, DART owns the ROW and makes money leasing track capacity to freight railroads that serve businesses along the line. Even after building out stations and starting passenger service, DART isn't allowed to sever the freight connections unless all current users agree to it. If they can't close the line to freight, they can't run LRT on the existing track (DART SLRVs are not FRA compliant like the Stadler DMUs, and would get absolutely crushed by a freight loco in a crash), which means building a new, at least partially elevated viaduct to carry DART LRT over the existing freight track where there are turnouts or the ROW is too narrow to fit an additional 2 tracks. That means the existing environmental approval goes out the window and we're back to square 1.

I agree that DART needs a radial loop, but at this point they might as well just tunnel under loop 12 or 635 for the LRT loop. The Cotton Belt alignment makes the most sense as Commuter Rail, and given that the CityLine development has taken off, it makes sense to reroute the tracks to make that a connecting hub. That's why Richardson put up the money for rerouting the line so it would directly connect to a major employment center (BTW, still waiting on Dallas to cough up the extra half a billion dollars they're making DART spend on D2).

[I45Tex]

Delightfully detailed feedback, thanks! I'm glad the regulations exist, too, but it's frustrating if or when digging a hole for a bunch of concrete underneath the Trinity floodplain becomes the best shot we have.

[exelone31]

I'm sure this is mentioned in plans somewhere, but is the North Lake station planned to be within walking/scootering distance of Cypress Waters? I've seen maps that mention a Cypress Waters alternative, but that seems to be a pretty compelling spot to have a station.

[muncien]

I'm sure this is mentioned in plans somewhere, but is the North Lake station planned to be within walking/scootering distance of Cypress Waters? I've seen maps that mention a Cypress Waters alternative, but that seems to be a pretty compelling spot to have a station.

If I remember correctly, Billingsly has agreed to kick in money to pay for the track diversion to put a station on Cypress Waters (and Dallas) property. That said, it would be a later phase of Cypress Waters and not by the development going on today. They are all going to be connected by trails along the lake, so it's not difficult for scooter/bike usage. It should also be walkable due to the pedestrian friendly streets incorporated into Cypress Waters, but the distance will likely limit who will actually walk.

[tamtagon]

^Considering the remarkable financial gift from the city of Dallas, Cypress Waters should pay for the outstanding pedestrian-train infrastructure so this development becomes walking distance to the airport.

[TNWE]

I'm sure this is mentioned in plans somewhere, but is the North Lake station planned to be within walking/scootering distance of Cypress Waters? I've seen maps that mention a Cypress Waters alternative, but that seems to be a pretty compelling spot to have a station.

If I remember correctly, Billingsly has agreed to kick in money to pay for the track diversion to put a station on Cypress Waters (and Dallas) property. That said, it would be a later phase of Cypress Waters and not by the development going on today. They are all going to be connected by trails along the lake, so it's not difficult for scooter/bike usage. It should also be walkable due to the pedestrian friendly streets incorporated into Cypress Waters, but the distance will likely limit who will actually walk.

I wouldn't be surprised if Billingsly set up a free circulator shuttle like what KDC did at CityLine.

[muncien]

I wouldn't be surprised if Billingsly set up a free circulator shuttle like what KDC did at CityLine.

They already have this electric, stretched, open air, golf cart that shuttles people around during lunch time. I wouldn't be surprised to see it's usage expanded as Cypress Waters continues to build out. It seems to get decent usage, and helps limit lunch time vehicular traffic. I dig it...

There was also a stand alone bike share available when the development first kicked off, but it got very little traction and was removed. Surprisingly, none of the new dockless options were every distributed here. I think they would do well. If V-bikes is still going, I'd love for them to fill that void. Scooters are welcome too.

Those would all be great options to make a Cotton Belt line more accessible.

[The_Overdog]

Am I missing something, or did this vote just turn the Cotton Belt from a single-track commuter line to a traditional commuter line like the rest of DART?


https://communityimpact.com/dallas-fort ... s-suburbs/

"he Dallas Area Rapid Transit board of directors unanimously approved adding the double track along the entirety of the future east-west running railway at its Feb. 12 meeting. The design change is expected to eventually reduce the wait period between rail cars to under 20 minutes for both directions."

Double track means a E-> West line and a W->East that are parallel and separate right?

[northsouth]

The line was designed as double-tracked, and that it would be fully double-tracked either from the start or down the road. The argument is that doing it later would be relatively more expensive and difficult than to just do it now for an increased initial cost. This is talked about in the presentation given to the DART board: https://www.dart.org/about/board/boarda ... 2feb19.pdf

As far as I remember, most public discussions mentioned the line as double-tracked, and it actually caught me off guard a little bit that they had to officially make it fully double-tracked afterwards instead of being the default. And yes, double track means two separate tracks, one for each direction, but with crossovers here and there to allow for trains to go around blockages.

[itsjrd1964]

This would put it on par with all the DART light rail lines. All of them are doubled. Too bad we don't yet have the TRE or TexRail as a double-track setup. They will need it sooner than later.

[The_Overdog]

As far as I remember, most public discussions mentioned the line as double-tracked, and it actually caught me off guard a little bit that they had to officially make it fully double-tracked afterwards instead of being the default.

That's odd, because double-tracking was part of the 2045 rail plan even after the Cotton Belt line had been approved. Single track with 30 minute+ waits has always been my main complaint with this line. I'm glad they are spending the extra (minor for 26 miles of rail) amount of money now.

[Matt777]

How much extra is double tracking going to add to the cost of this epic boondoggle?

If they're going to be spending all this extra money to bring a 3rd rail line to DFW Airport, I would like to see a plan to integrate the 3 lines into one central station at DFW, and then buses from each terminal to "DFW Airport Central Rail Station." Users could get info and buy tickets from one station and then enter a numbered platform area like the ones in other parts of the globe.

[muncien]

How much extra is double tracking going to add to the cost of this epic boondoggle?

If they're going to be spending all this extra money to bring a 3rd rail line to DFW Airport, I would like to see a plan to integrate the 3 lines into one central station at DFW, and then buses from each terminal to "DFW Airport Central Rail Station." Users could get info and buy tickets from one station and then enter a numbered platform area like the ones in other parts of the globe.

Isn't that the plan? I mean, unless you call that short walk between DART and Texrail significant enough to make them two stations. Or, are they now talking about stopping Cotton Belt at the DFW 'North' station? Maybe I missed that update...

[ContriveDallasite]

How much extra is double tracking going to add to the cost of this epic boondoggle?

If they're going to be spending all this extra money to bring a 3rd rail line to DFW Airport, I would like to see a plan to integrate the 3 lines into one central station at DFW, and then buses from each terminal to "DFW Airport Central Rail Station." Users could get info and buy tickets from one station and then enter a numbered platform area like the ones in other parts of the globe.

Isn't that the plan? I mean, unless you call that short walk between DART and Texrail significant enough to make them two stations. Or, are they now talking about stopping Cotton Belt at the DFW 'North' station? Maybe I missed that update...

In before there is a 3rd station with parallel tracks terminating at DFW... Still think it's ridiculous that they couldn't engineer something more pragmatic than the current DART and TexRail solution.

[tamtagon]

I like to think DFW's current train station scheme is an intentionally temporary start up design; passenger trains will transect the airport to Centerport and then Arlington Stadiums/UTA.

[The_Overdog]

How much extra is double tracking going to add to the cost of this epic boondoggle?

$100m, or bringing the total cost back to the $900m cost that's been thrown around from the beginning. I guess without doubletracking, it is $800m.

[Redblock]

How much extra is double tracking going to add to the cost of this epic boondoggle?

If they're going to be spending all this extra money to bring a 3rd rail line to DFW Airport, I would like to see a plan to integrate the 3 lines into one central station at DFW, and then buses from each terminal to "DFW Airport Central Rail Station." Users could get info and buy tickets from one station and then enter a numbered platform area like the ones in other parts of the globe.

Isn't that the plan? I mean, unless you call that short walk between DART and Texrail significant enough to make them two stations. Or, are they now talking about stopping Cotton Belt at the DFW 'North' station? Maybe I missed that update...

The plan has always been for the Cotton Belt Line to use the Terminal B Station along with TEXRail and for the Cotton Belt Line to share the North DFW Station. The bridge over 121/114 is wide enough for two tracks to accommodate the Cotton Belt trains. This will allow for transfers between the lines without going all the way to Terminal B.

When DART was planning the Orange Line they allowed for a diverging route from the current line between Belt Line and DFW stations to allow half the trains to stop at the North DFW Station. They even built two double track junctions into the Orange Line for construction of this second route.

I do not know if this plan is still around, but it would make North DFW Station a 'union station' for the 3 lines.

[northsouth]

When DART was planning the Orange Line they allowed for a diverging route from the current line between Belt Line and DFW stations to allow half the trains to stop at the North DFW Station. They even built two double track junctions into the Orange Line for construction of this second route.

I do not know if this plan is still around, but it would make North DFW Station a 'union station' for the 3 lines.

As per section 2.5.5 of the FEIS (page 108 on https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/ex ... andROD.pdf ), the Orange Line loop has been cancelled primarily due to right of way constraints, i.e. development in the area, and airport-imposed constraints along the TEXRail route into the airport, which was changed to be wide enough to accommodate a Cotton Belt track, negating the asinine setup of having to transfer from the Cotton Belt to TEXRail or the Orange Line to get from DFW North to the airport proper.

The loop was a bad idea to begin with, and I'm glad it is now just a footnote to explain two unused junctions on the Orange Line.

[jeffbrown2002]

So it looks like the Cotton Belt will be getting a color designation after all to better align it with DART's other rail services. Apparently it's going to be called the "Silver Line" complete with special branding and custom logo. Seems like a good compromise between having a completely different naming convention like the TRE and being just another color line, and it fits considering the line appears to be envisioned as something in between commuter rail and rapid transit.

Silver Line 1.png

Silver Line 2.png

Silver Line 3.png

Silver Line 4.png

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/communicationitem5_26feb19.pdf

[itsjrd1964]

So it looks like the Cotton Belt will be getting a color designation after all to better align it with DART's other rail services. Apparently it's going to be called the "Silver Line" complete with special branding and custom logo. Seems like a good compromise between having a completely different naming convention like the TRE and being just another color line, and it fits considering the line appears to be envisioned as something in between commuter rail and rapid transit.

Silver Line 1.pngSilver Line 2.pngSilver Line 3.pngSilver Line 4.png

https://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/communicationitem5_26feb19.pdf

I guess a color-labeling is just as good as any. Plus if the cars have any silver and blue on them like the picture, some may think Dallas Cowboys (the line passes near their former Valley Ranch main offices), maybe. As long as the Cotton Belt Railroad was a thing, I never heard of any negative connotations about the name. Either way, I wondered if they would really end up using "Cotton Belt" as part of the line's name.

[DPatel304]

Sounds good to me. Silver still fits in with the rest of the colored lines, so it's not confusing, but silver also sounds slightly nicer as well, which might help with the general reputation of DART.

I even notice that in the logo the "Silver line" text is big and bold, while "Dallas Area Rapid Transit" is much smaller.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

It really should be a color. Naming it anything else just goes against the rest of system.

[lakewoodhobo]

I'm ok with "Silver Line" but I'm not crazy about the logo that makes it look like one word (SILVERLINE).

I also find it very interesting that there was such a strong negative reaction by the black community to the Cotton Belt name since there's historic context. Does the Cotton Bowl Classic get the same strong reaction, or does it get a pass because everyone loves football?

[art_suckz]

Football is more important than the New Testament.

[cowboyeagle05]

Keep in mind the logo for this line will diminish after it opens. While this line isn't the Green, Blue, Orange and/or Red lines, which don't really have logos, the initial promotion of the opening of new lines tends to create this kind of need for brand awareness. They will put up posters, TV ads etc when they promote its opening but I doubt after a year being open it will show up on more than a few brochures at the Airport and suburban visitor centers. Sure this one is separate because unlike the others it's not going Downtown but I doubt the branding will last very long.

[ArtVandelay]

Keep in mind the logo for this line will diminish after it opens. While this line isn't the Green, Blue, Orange and/or Red lines, which don't really have logos, the initial promotion of the opening of new lines tends to create this kind of need for brand awareness. They will put up posters, TV ads etc when they promote its opening but I doubt after a year being open it will show up on more than a few brochures at the Airport and suburban visitor centers. Sure this one is separate because unlike the others it's not going Downtown but I doubt the branding will last very long.

Yep. Even the orange line had its own logo:

[TNWE]

Given that the Silver line will have separate rolling stock, I'd guess the branding will "stick" a little more because it is a standalone line. If future developments result in DART running additional DMU-based commuter service (like Frisco or Madill) there may be a rebrand, but for the time being I'd get used to the Silver Line logo and branding.

[The_Overdog]

They should have saved the SilverLine designation for a train that ran up US75 to that casino just across the Oklahoma border.

[electricron]

They should have saved the SilverLine designation for a train that ran up US75 to that casino just across the Oklahoma border.

While DART owns the railroad corridor paralleling US75 as far north as Sherman, why do you think DART will ever build light rail line up that far? Not one city north of Plano contributes any tax revenues to DART. And if they did, the amount of tax revenues from them certainly would not pay for any passenger rail expansion.

[The_Overdog]

It's a joke son.

[Redblock]

DART has ordered 8 FLIRT DMUs from Stadler.

https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1402

[homeworld1031tx]

All this time I've been against these commuter rail options since they frankly represent a waste of resources to me, but it's interesting to think how automated mobility might make these very attractive in the next twenty years. If driverless taxis are cheap enough, a user could easily hop on one from their suburban single family home, take it to the train station, catch the train, and then take another quick taxi from an end point station to their office, all in a time frame that might match or beat the highway commute.

Interested to see how this might play out. Highways will only become more congested in even the medium term (before either dedicate lanes or platooning via vehicle to vehicle or v to infrastructure comms for autonomous cars become standard & common place) so these heavy rail lanes offer attractive 'highways' between parts of the city, if the users can easily board last mile options at the end points.

[electricron]

DART has ordered 8 FLIRT Emus from Stadler.
https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1402

They will be DMUs, not EMUs.

[Redblock]

DART has ordered 8 FLIRT Emus from Stadler.
https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1402

They will be DMUs, not EMUs.

Of course you are right and I knew that. I don't know if that was my bad typing or auto-cottect.

[itsjrd1964]

DART has ordered 8 FLIRT Emus from Stadler.
https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1402

They will be DMUs, not EMUs.

Of course you are right and I knew that. I don't know if that was my bad typing or auto-cottect.

That auto-cottect, it's a killer....

[electricron]

That auto-cottect, it's a killer....

Whether it is auto-correct or auto-cottect, it also slays me too.

[tamtagon]

^hahahaha

[Alex Rodriguez]

https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1405

"At DFW Airport, the project will connect to the TEXRail Regional Rail Line to Fort Worth and provide access to the DFW Airport Skylink. The Silver Line will interface with three DART light rail lines: The Red/Orange Lines in Richardson/Plano, the Green Line in Carrollton and the Orange Line at DFW Airport."

Couple of questions: 1) Is the Orange Line Phase 2 to DFW North station still a thing or did it get permanently cancelled. I know they built the stub out for it, but wasnt' sure if it was still in the plans. 2) What is the interface look like between Terminal A station and Terminal B station? Is there a DART shuttle that goes back and forth between the two and what is the frequency?

Thanks.

[Tucy]

https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1405

"At DFW Airport, the project will connect to the TEXRail Regional Rail Line to Fort Worth and provide access to the DFW Airport Skylink. The Silver Line will interface with three DART light rail lines: The Red/Orange Lines in Richardson/Plano, the Green Line in Carrollton and the Orange Line at DFW Airport."

Couple of questions: 1) Is the Orange Line Phase 2 to DFW North station still a thing or did it get permanently cancelled. I know they built the stub out for it, but wasnt' sure if it was still in the plans. 2) What is the interface look like between Terminal A station and Terminal B station? Is there a DART shuttle that goes back and forth between the two and what is the frequency?

Thanks.

I believe the "interface" looks a lot like a sidewalk.

[northsouth]

1) Is the Orange Line Phase 2 to DFW North station still a thing or did it get permanently cancelled. I know they built the stub out for it, but wasnt' sure if it was still in the plans.

Buried in the FEIS for the Silver Line they mentioned that it's cancelled. I went into further detail with a link to the section of the FEIS higher up on this page. The ramp stubs on either end will forever be monuments to that plan, though I imagine at some point down the road when they're doing track replacement on that part of the line, they'll take out the switches to lessen wear on the wheels, leaving just the ramp stub in the embankment.

[itsjrd1964]

https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1405

"At DFW Airport, the project will connect to the TEXRail Regional Rail Line to Fort Worth and provide access to the DFW Airport Skylink. The Silver Line will interface with three DART light rail lines: The Red/Orange Lines in Richardson/Plano, the Green Line in Carrollton and the Orange Line at DFW Airport."

Couple of questions: 1) Is the Orange Line Phase 2 to DFW North station still a thing or did it get permanently cancelled. I know they built the stub out for it, but wasnt' sure if it was still in the plans. 2) What is the interface look like between Terminal A station and Terminal B station? Is there a DART shuttle that goes back and forth between the two and what is the frequency?

Thanks.

I believe the "interface" looks a lot like a sidewalk.

There is a sidewalk between the 2. There is the "Terminal Link" airport shuttle between terminals, but the walk between the DART station and the TexRail station is infinitely quicker. Mind you, at my last look a few weeks ago, the signage is *somewhat* better, but it could still use more improvement (I've meant to post pics from then, but sorry, haven't gotten to it yet).

As far as further phases involving the Orange line, the only things DART has mentioned more recently have been involving future/postponed station additions, including Carpenter Ranch (between North Lake College station and Irving Convention Center station, alongside the development that Pioneer Natural Resources is moving to) and Loop 12 station (alongside the former Texas Stadium acreage, I guess whenever that develops)... no extensions or changes that I've heard of otherwise.

[Redblock]

On the Orange Line, the Carpenter Ranch Station is now called Hidden Ridge Station.

https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1389

[itsjrd1964]

On the Orange Line, the Carpenter Ranch Station is now called Hidden Ridge Station.

https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1389

Missed that, but "Hidden Ridge" does sound more current and logical, even though a name like "Carpenter Ranch" gives the nod to local history and early years of Las Colinas itself.

[TNWE]

https://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=1405

"At DFW Airport, the project will connect to the TEXRail Regional Rail Line to Fort Worth and provide access to the DFW Airport Skylink. The Silver Line will interface with three DART light rail lines: The Red/Orange Lines in Richardson/Plano, the Green Line in Carrollton and the Orange Line at DFW Airport."

Couple of questions: 1) Is the Orange Line Phase 2 to DFW North station still a thing or did it get permanently cancelled. I know they built the stub out for it, but wasnt' sure if it was still in the plans. 2) What is the interface look like between Terminal A station and Terminal B station? Is there a DART shuttle that goes back and forth between the two and what is the frequency?

Thanks.

I believe the "interface" looks a lot like a sidewalk.

And takes all of about 5 minutes to traverse. There are also awnings and space for bus stops, although nothing stops there now except for service interruption buses. It would be nice if they could have stops for direct shuttles to Terminals C, D, and E, rather than relying on the current Terminal Link system, but there's just not the demand right now.

[northsouth]

https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/cottonbelt/DARTCottonBeltMeeting22jul19.pdf

Looks like they've scaled down the station designs to something more reasonable than the ones described in the EIS.

[bachmanlad]

And takes all of about 5 minutes to traverse. There are also awnings and space for bus stops, although nothing stops there now except for service interruption buses. It would be nice if they could have stops for direct shuttles to Terminals C, D, and E, rather than relying on the current Terminal Link system, but there's just not the demand right now.

It's quite a pleasant walk as long as it's not boiling or freezing out. The sidewalks are covered and nicely landscaped.

In the oldest concept art, the two platforms are even with one another (instead of Terminal B Station being a little farther south) and the walkway cuts cleanly through the middle instead of doing the awkward U-shaped loop around the north ends of the platforms it does now. I think they ended up doing it the way they did because of the bus stop there. There would have to have been walkways to the bus stop anyway, and cutting a trench for another, more direct, walkway in the middle of the platforms would have been an extra expense.

Rebranding them as a single station would simplify system maps and I am all for it, but it would be a little misleading for transfers because of the walk time from tracks 1-2 to tracks 3-4. Then again, that wouldn't be an issue as long as DART and T-Metro coordinated their schedules to account for it, which they should be doing anyway.

I never bother with the Terminal Link buses at all if I can avoid them. I just go through security right at Terminal A, then take Skylink to wherever my gate is - it's faster, more reliable, and more frequent than the buses.

https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/cottonbelt/DARTCottonBeltMeeting22jul19.pdf

Looks like they've scaled down the station designs to something more reasonable than the ones described in the EIS.

I like it. It doesn't look quite as nice as the cottony designs in the EIS did, but the "DART rail station, but sleek and silvery" look is a great fit for the new brand. More importantly, it'll do a much better job of keeping the sun/rain/sleet off.

[Jbarn]

And takes all of about 5 minutes to traverse. There are also awnings and space for bus stops, although nothing stops there now except for service interruption buses. It would be nice if they could have stops for direct shuttles to Terminals C, D, and E, rather than relying on the current Terminal Link system, but there's just not the demand right now.

It's quite a pleasant walk as long as it's not boiling or freezing out. The sidewalks are covered and nicely landscaped.

In the oldest concept art, the two platforms are even with one another (instead of Terminal B Station being a little farther south) and the walkway cuts cleanly through the middle instead of doing the awkward U-shaped loop around the north ends of the platforms it does now. I think they ended up doing it the way they did because of the bus stop there. There would have to have been walkways to the bus stop anyway, and cutting a trench for another, more direct, walkway in the middle of the platforms would have been an extra expense.

Rebranding them as a single station would simplify system maps and I am all for it, but it would be a little misleading for transfers because of the walk time from tracks 1-2 to tracks 2-4. Then again, that wouldn't be an issue as long as DART and T-Metro coordinated their schedules to account for it, which they should be doing anyway.

I never bother with the Terminal Link buses at all if I can avoid them. I just go through security right at Terminal A, then take Skylink to wherever my gate is - it's faster, more reliable, and more frequent than the buses.

https://www.dart.org/ShareRoot/about/expansion/cottonbelt/DARTCottonBeltMeeting22jul19.pdf

Looks like they've scaled down the station designs to something more reasonable than the ones described in the EIS.

I like it. It doesn't look quite as nice as the cottony designs in the EIS did, but the "DART rail station, but sleek and silvery" look is a great fit for the new brand. More importantly, it'll do a much better job of keeping the sun/rain/sleet off.

Regarding Terminal Link; the problem is if you check luggage and arrive back at any terminal other than Terminal A, you pretty much have to take Terminal Link. When I got back from a trip a few weeks ago, it took terminal link 45 minutes to come pick us up and then a 20 minute ride to get us to Terminal A. Added an hour to our trip. This is probably one of the reasons very few people are taking the orange line to DFW. That and the fact that the majority of the people on the trains to and fro DFW are homeless and are using them as sleeper trains. It can be intimidating.

[DPatel304]

DART breaks ground on Silver Line along the old Cotton Belt corridor
The plan is to have the Silver Line operating in three years.

https://www.fox4news.com/news/dart-brea ... t-corridor

I had no idea we were so close to ground breaking on this project. Truthfully I had kinda shut out most information regarding this as I'm not fully in support of it, and I figured it was still going to be a ways off.

[Matt777]

DART breaks ground on Silver Line along the old Cotton Belt corridor
The plan is to have the Silver Line operating in three years.

https://www.fox4news.com/news/dart-brea ... t-corridor

I had no idea we were so close to ground breaking on this project. Truthfully I had kinda shut out most information regarding this as I'm not fully in support of it, and I figured it was still going to be a ways off.

Yikes. They want to get this boondoggle operational quickly. Can't wait for the 20/20 feature story on "The Train to Nowhere."

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Dart is more of bullet point than actually useful. We've got the longest train system in America..that's all I hear.

We can only hope the region densifies to the point where it becomes useful.