Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Also, looks like a cool upscale massage place called The Now has leased space at Water Street right next to The Gingerman.

This was posted in Bloomberg News on the 6th


A 1980s Edge City Comes Back From the Brink, Minus Its Monorail

The master-planned Texas business hub of Las Colinas was built around cars and offices. Now it’s embraced apartments and evolved into a genuine — and quirky — urban area.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features ... fice-space

I also have some Google earth screenshots of the Urban Center from 2003-2023. Crazy how much progress has happened since 2013 alone

2003



2013



2023

^^ Good article. I saw that posted online a few days ago. I'm still not convinced that adding SO MANY apartment complexes was the right approach. And still disappointing that Las Colinas couldn't even land 1 high-rise apartment complex. For years, developers kept telling us there wasn't a market, that people would never pay those high prices. Complete lie! To this day, the Las Colinas Urban Center has some of the highest rental rates in DFW. I had friends gladly paying almost $2K for a 1 bedroom on the lake. But that's my rant.... On another note, the Wells Fargo development is really moving fast. They're already up to level 7 on one of the buildings, and the other is just 1 floor behind. It's adding a nice presence to that corner.

Kelley USA wrote:^^ Good article. I saw that posted online a few days ago. I'm still not convinced that adding SO MANY apartment complexes was the right approach. And still disappointing that Las Colinas couldn't even land 1 high-rise apartment complex. For years, developers kept telling us there wasn't a market, that people would never pay those high prices. Complete lie! To this day, the Las Colinas Urban Center has some of the highest rental rates in DFW. I had friends gladly paying almost $2K for a 1 bedroom on the lake. But that's my rant.... On another note, the Wells Fargo development is really moving fast. They're already up to level 7 on one of the buildings, and the other is just 1 floor behind. It's adding a nice presence to that corner.

That’s one thing I’ve thought about too. An apartment tower would’ve been great overlooking Lake Carolyn. There’s a few spots left that I’ve seen that could probably accommodate one. Do you think it’s too late? Also, I’ve thought a grocery store, maybe a Trader Joe’s would be nice here. I am not sure if it has reached the critical mass for one. I know there has to be thousands of ppl living there with all the new apartments. Wells Fargo is moving fast! Is the apartment complex and retail next to it still moving forward? Sucks that the APT isn’t working with all the densification that’s occurring.

I don't share a love of towers you all have, but IMO they still need way more apartments, or dense living options. The problem is that Las Colinas is bounded by a golf course on one side and a forrest/flood land on the other side, so you have cram a lot of density into small area, and so far the density is nowhere near enough for it to be a 'real' city. I mean look - at the SE corner, it's basically one block wide from the lake to the edge.

The law firm that represents the Las Vegas Sands Casino Co. purchased 108 acres near Cowboys Stadium.

The_Overdog wrote:I don't share a love of towers you all have, but IMO they still need way more apartments, or dense living options. The problem is that Las Colinas is bounded by a golf course on one side and a forrest/flood land on the other side, so you have cram a lot of density into small area, and so far the density is nowhere near enough for it to be a 'real' city. I mean look - at the SE corner, it's basically one block wide from the lake to the edge.

There’s nothing wrong with mid-rises, but I do like high-rises too (NGL). There’s a new mid-rise apartment complex U/C called The Mustang. But for what it is…a suburban CBD or “Urban Center”, (to me) it’s the best example that we have in the suburbs outside of Ft Worth and Dallas. I remember when DART opened the orange line here 10+ years ago. Then I heard people say it was a waste because there wasn’t much development around it. It has filled in pretty nicely since then. Further enhancements in the future can made to make it better, but it’ll never be a completely traditional urban area and I don’t think they’re trying to be. I view it as being complementary to the CBDs of Dallas and Ft Worth. I do like they’ve tried to implement road diets and signage to give it a sense of place.

From what I read in the DMN, there’s 65 acres (out of 950 acres) left for development (2022 numbers). I’m not sure how much of that is already developed.

The first minute of this video, you can see the Mustang u/c. This video was made in late August. https://youtu.be/mJj2yH00tQ8?feature=shared

Looks like the former 54th is going to be "The Delhi Lounge" Culinary Nirvana Draft House & Bar. Just saw the coming soon sign this morning.

Schlotzsky's on 635/MacArthur shutting down, converting into a Starbuck's.

anpatel00 wrote:Schlotzsky's on 635/MacArthur shutting down, converting into a Starbuck's.

Guessing this is a relocation of the Starbucks by the Raising Canes.

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:

anpatel00 wrote:Schlotzsky's on 635/MacArthur shutting down, converting into a Starbuck's.

Guessing this is a relocation of the Starbucks by the Raising Canes.

Starbucks is hard to figure out. I thought for sure when they opened the new Starbucks at Star Park, they'd close the one right by Hudson House. But nope! This should be a great location for them though. The Schlotzsky's they took over at O'Connor is crazy busy. That line generally will extend out onto the street.

Also, looks like Chop Shop is open where Red Hot & Blue once was. Looks like a cool spot!

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:

anpatel00 wrote:Schlotzsky's on 635/MacArthur shutting down, converting into a Starbuck's.

Guessing this is a relocation of the Starbucks by the Raising Canes.

You think Starbucks would have found a location on that same side of 635, but I know the retail/restaurant mix gets a little "imaginative" the further north you go on MacArthur.

Also, there's a case coming before P&Z pertaining to HEB. Obviously the case doesn't mention HEB, but it does make note of a restaurant within a 121K sf yet to be built retail building (grocery store). They're applying for a liquor license for the restaurant within the store, which would be different than the license for the grocery store. Assuming this would be for a True Texas BBQ restaurant which is in most of the new HEB's.

Kelley USA wrote:Also, there's a case coming before P&Z pertaining to HEB. Obviously the case doesn't mention HEB, but it does make note of a restaurant within a 121K sf yet to be built retail building (grocery store). They're applying for a liquor license for the restaurant within the store, which would be different than the license for the grocery store. Assuming this would be for a True Texas BBQ restaurant which is in most of the new HEB's.

Do you have the address?

Kelley USA wrote:Also, there's a case coming before P&Z pertaining to HEB. Obviously the case doesn't mention HEB, but it does make note of a restaurant within a 121K sf yet to be built retail building (grocery store). They're applying for a liquor license for the restaurant within the store, which would be different than the license for the grocery store. Assuming this would be for a True Texas BBQ restaurant which is in most of the new HEB's.

Im assuming you have inside information about this, because this rezoning request you describe isn't showing up on any of the publicly posted agendas, yet...

Also, as far as restaurants, H-E-B does have other types of restaurants in their stores across Houston and San Antonio, althoguh True Texas BBQ is the one located in most of them (and that's what they've been opening thus far across DFW).

Addison wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:Also, there's a case coming before P&Z pertaining to HEB. Obviously the case doesn't mention HEB, but it does make note of a restaurant within a 121K sf yet to be built retail building (grocery store). They're applying for a liquor license for the restaurant within the store, which would be different than the license for the grocery store. Assuming this would be for a True Texas BBQ restaurant which is in most of the new HEB's.

Im assuming you have inside information about this, because this rezoning request you describe isn't showing up on any of the publicly posted agendas, yet...

Also, as far as restaurants, H-E-B does have other types of restaurants in their stores across Houston and San Antonio, althoguh[sic] True Texas BBQ is the one located in most of them (and that's what they've been opening thus far across DFW).

I believe they only have a single remaining Chinese restaurant after the original one in Waco was converted- could be wrong..

No, no inside information. It's posted in the current P&Z agenda for Jan 2nd. It's zoning case 2023-106. Click on the "packet" and then scroll down to that case for additional info. Again, it doesn't list HEB specifically, but you can see the site plan for the project which does mention "grocery store".

https://www.cityofirving.org/4094/2023-Agendas

Ah, the old Fry’s location. I thought that was being turned into a storage unit center. Maybe they’ve sold off the parking lot and the property in front of that where a new store will be built. The application does say the building is yet to built. Still too far from me to care. They need to get their Dallas store plan going.

Kelley USA wrote:No, no inside information. It's posted in the current P&Z agenda for Jan 2nd. It's zoning case 2023-106. Click on the "packet" and then scroll down to that case for additional info. Again, it doesn't list HEB specifically, but you can see the site plan for the project which does mention "grocery store".

https://www.cityofirving.org/4094/2023-Agendas

Ah ok, I see it now. Thank you!

What threw me off before was the acreage (0.425 acres). I see this new rezoning request is just for the restaurant itself and not the entire proposed grocery store.

Doing a bit more investigative work, it seems Baird, Hampton and Brown also engineered the Hudson Oaks store.

https://bhbinc.com/b/happy-new-year-a-l ... d-at-2019/

Matt777 wrote:Ah, the old Fry’s location. I thought that was being turned into a storage unit center. Maybe they’ve sold off the parking lot and the property in front of that where a new store will be built. The application does say the building is yet to built. Still too far from me to care. They need to get their Dallas store plan going.

Here's a screen shot of the site plan, FWIW...

So, no Costco?

R1070 wrote:So, no Costco?

Thankfully no. With two so close it didn't make sense.

I have seen a few survey crews out on the former ExxonMobil parcels. Perhaps someone is kicking the tires on something here, but I honestly don't expect anything to develop here anytime soon unless it's residential.

Also, across the street there's a note in P&Z about razing the old Neiman Marcus warehouse / office and building a data center.

Article in the DMN that officially mentions JAXON Beer Garden coming to the Toyota Music Factory in September 2024. My assumption is the new owners are going to try and finish the redo on the Plaza and have the new tenants open by September. Article also mentions a NEW BBQ restaurant and cocktail lounge will be joining the mix.

https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... ort-worth/

Could it potentially be a Central Market? CM is also owned by HEB.

cp14 wrote:Could it potentially be a Central Market? CM is also owned by HEB.

Never say never, but 99.9% not going to be a Central Market. CM generally has a much much smaller footprint and this is estimated at 121K sf (more than twice the size of the average CM). CM has looked at the Las Colinas area before though. They were going to be the original anchor for what is now the Whole Foods development.

Christus Health has purchased the lot directly across the street from their new HQ. It's the lot that's been owned by Gables and was marked for Water Street Phase 2. So for much that! They have no plans for the property, and instead will hold it for future development (which kinda sucks if another 10 years go by and we get nothing).

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... as-colnas/

Never say never, but 99.9% not going to be a Central Market.

Maybe the rules are different between cities, but all the P&Z documents for HEB in Plano, Allen, Frisco, etc said "HEB" on them - the land purchases might have been secret, but the zoning requests were not.

The_Overdog wrote:

Never say never, but 99.9% not going to be a Central Market.

Maybe the rules are different between cities, but all the P&Z documents for HEB in Plano, Allen, Frisco, etc said "HEB" on them - the land purchases might have been secret, but the zoning requests were not.

So land purchases, at least for H-E-B, are not a secret.

All of the real estate they own for future stores is under the name "H-E-B Grocery L.P.", or something to that effect. There was a map of all of the land they owned made in 2021, although it's somewhat dated now (as it doesn't account for the land purchases since then in Rockwall and Melissa, nor the Joe V store in RedBird). You can easily look this up on the CAD Property Maps for each county.

Now, with respect to the Irving zoning request, in all likelihood their name wasn't listed because they dont actually own the land (yet). It's certainly possible they've entered into a LOI with the landowner to purchase the land at a future date, once they're ready to build the store (which is why the landowner is proceeding with the zoning request on H-E-B's behalf). And I'm sure H-E-B would prefer it be this way, to avoid a bunch of unwanted press & speculation (they're very adament about keeping these new stores a secret until they're literally ready to break ground). In fact, if I'm not mistaken, this is exactly how it played out with the Alliance store.

All of that said, we have to use a bit of common sense here as well. There's no other grocery store in Texas, other than maybe Walmart, that is building locations to the specifications in the Zoning Request. They're already a Walmart less than a half mile down the road, so I highly doubt it's them. Also, as mentioned earlier, the same engineering firm who's designing this grocery store worked on H-E-B's store in Hudson Oaks.

Also sort of thinking out loud here, but wouldn't this be the first HEB in Dallas County?

Kelley USA wrote:Also sort of thinking out loud here, but wouldn't this be the first HEB in Dallas County?

Maybe. For all we know, they could be working on other stores within Dallas County and those might break ground first.

They went through all the approvals for the Forney store before buying the land in Rockwall, yet Rockwall is coming online first.

The Forney store was suppose to break ground before Rockwall. The hold-up is HEB wanting a railroad crossing from Highway 80 to the parking lot. Issues with Union Pacific is causing the hold-up.

Saw a little interesting note that I didn't know about, but it was in a DMN article today about gaming. Made mention that Choctaw had purchased a tract in Las Colinas on 114. And sure enough, went to DCAD and found that Choctaw does indeed own a tract at 311 E John Carpenter Frwy. Could just be a real estate holding, or maybe some sort of future regional office. No clue!

Kelley USA wrote:Saw a little interesting note that I didn't know about, but it was in a DMN article today about gaming. Made mention that Choctaw had purchased a tract in Las Colinas on 114. And sure enough, went to DCAD and found that Choctaw does indeed own a tract at 311 E John Carpenter Frwy. Could just be a real estate holding, or maybe some sort of future regional office. No clue!

They will be spending tens of millions of dollars to block gambling legality in Texas.

TXGunLover wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:Saw a little interesting note that I didn't know about, but it was in a DMN article today about gaming. Made mention that Choctaw had purchased a tract in Las Colinas on 114. And sure enough, went to DCAD and found that Choctaw does indeed own a tract at 311 E John Carpenter Frwy. Could just be a real estate holding, or maybe some sort of future regional office. No clue!

They will be spending tens of millions of dollars to block gambling legality in Texas.

One time when I was at one of the Shreveport casinos, an employee I talked to told me that **by far**, the most business they get from guests/players is from TX.

itsjrd1964 wrote:

TXGunLover wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:Saw a little interesting note that I didn't know about, but it was in a DMN article today about gaming. Made mention that Choctaw had purchased a tract in Las Colinas on 114. And sure enough, went to DCAD and found that Choctaw does indeed own a tract at 311 E John Carpenter Frwy. Could just be a real estate holding, or maybe some sort of future regional office. No clue!

They will be spending tens of millions of dollars to block gambling legality in Texas.

One time when I was at one of the Shreveport casinos, an employee I talked to told me that **by far**, the most business they get from guests/players is from TX.

Absolutely. The reservations in Oklahoma and Louisiana's gov will be fighting it like mad.

I personally have no belief that gambling will be approved in TX until the legislature needs another funding source. They don't right now, IMO there's zero chance that any true casinos will be built in Texas any time soon. And if they somehow did, some out of stater like Sheldon Adelson will be last in line to know.

The_Overdog wrote:I personally have no belief that gambling will be approved in TX until the legislature needs another funding source. They don't right now, IMO there's zero chance that any true casinos will be built in Texas any time soon. And if they somehow did, some out of stater like Sheldon Adelson will be last in line to know.

Excellent point. There may be a time when the legislature will think that gambling taxes can replace some property taxes or other revenue but it's not likely on the immediate horizon. One pedantic nitpick: Miriam Adelson will be at the end of that line to know about it but Sheldon Adelson isn't even in line anymore, having died in 2021.

The_Overdog wrote:I personally have no belief that gambling will be approved in TX until the legislature needs another funding source. They don't right now, IMO there's zero chance that any true casinos will be built in Texas any time soon. And if they somehow did, some out of stater like Sheldon Adelson will be last in line to know.

While I don't disagree, folks are spending millions and getting ready to spend millions more to fight the fight. It may even be a long fight.

I'm assuming it might just be for staging, but at the Wells Fargo site, they have significantly increased the fence line. It basically covers all the area where Wells Fargo had mentioned adding 2 additional buildings. Kind of makes we wonder, but again, I'm assuming there's a simple explanation, like room for all the windows that may be arriving, or pieces to assemble the parking garage.

Also, Michael's of Las Colinas has been locked out for failure to pay rent. I mean, literally nobody saw that coming (sarcasm)...

Kelley USA wrote:Also, Michael's of Las Colinas has been locked out for failure to pay rent. I mean, literally nobody saw that coming (sarcasm)...

That's a shame. My wife and daughter shop there quite a bit.

Kelley USA wrote:Also, Michael's of Las Colinas has been locked out for failure to pay rent. I mean, literally nobody saw that coming (sarcasm)...

The HQ office location or a store location? Their headquarters is in Las Colinas.

TXGunLover wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:Also, Michael's of Las Colinas has been locked out for failure to pay rent. I mean, literally nobody saw that coming (sarcasm)...

That's a shame. My wife and daughter shop there quite a bit.

No No, I'm speaking of the Jazz Restaurant near The Ranch. It was the 8K sf restaurant leased to a former criminal that had never operated a restaurant before. The reviews were a disaster and the place seemed like a mess. It's where Blue Sushi once was. As far as I know. the other Michael's is doing great!!

Oh yeah, no surprise... That makes a lot more sense.

Kelley USA wrote:

TXGunLover wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:Also, Michael's of Las Colinas has been locked out for failure to pay rent. I mean, literally nobody saw that coming (sarcasm)...

That's a shame. My wife and daughter shop there quite a bit.

No No, I'm speaking of the Jazz Restaurant near The Ranch. It was the 8K sf restaurant leased to a former criminal that had never operated a restaurant before. The reviews were a disaster and the place seemed like a mess. It's where Blue Sushi once was. As far as I know. the other Michael's is doing great!!

Oh, lol. Yeah that makes much more sense.

Interesting reference I ran across:

https://www.nctcog.org/getmedia/17c64cc ... f?ext=.pdf

Search the document for "DCURD". Anyone know additional info about what may be in the works for the APT system? I actually live in Las Colinas, though not the UC, and wasn't aware it was still not running. What a lost opportunity.

lwtx wrote:Interesting reference I ran across:

https://www.nctcog.org/getmedia/17c64cc ... f?ext=.pdf

Search the document for "DCURD". Anyone know additional info about what may be in the works for the APT system? I actually live in Las Colinas, though not the UC, and wasn't aware it was still not running. What a lost opportunity.

What's in that document is about as far as anything is at the moment. They're in the "trying to figure out what could work" phase without any concrete plans other than looking into retrofitting it with a rubber-tired automated minicar system. The most recent study is here:
https://nctcog.org/trans/plan/transit-management-and-planning/regional-automated-transportation-systems/guidelines-study

I do miss the old little vehicles! They had a certain charm to them.

That document you linked mentions studying an ATS for the Legacy area which I hadn't heard of before, that's interesting. I'm imagining little automated road vehicles just going back and forth across the overpass I'm guessing.

Looks like a place called BRUNCHEON is coming to Water Street (Brunch / Lunch spot). They have one other location they opened in 2022 in Richardson. Looks decent. Have always thought the Urban Center needed a good brunch spot for people to walk to.

Filing for updates to the Music Factory. This will be for C Building which is where Mama Tried is currently located, and where JAXON and the new BBQ restaurant will move into.

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2024011666