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Plano: misc. developments

itsjrd1964
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby itsjrd1964 » 01 Nov 2020 01:15

The_Overdog wrote:A few months ago, the Plano City Council rejected a proposal by the Plano Housing Authority to sale/leaseback the land east of the Parker Road Dart Station to build low-income and market-rate housing. They did put the land up for sale, and Plano Housing Authority has decided to purchase it instead for the same project -a 254 unit apartment complex. The land is currently empty except for a Rent-A-Tire shop on a small corner that will be bulldozed.


I wondered what was going on with that property. It will be interesting to see how many tenants will be there for its proximity to transit--or even if it attracts other potential residential TODs, as the Parker Road station, one of DART's older transit centers, has really not had any new development directly related to it, happen before now.

The corner lot was originally a Kinney Shoe store (I was at the grand opening with my dad) which opened in 1972. The store had snagged then-new Texas Rangers pitcher David Clyde to come make an appearance. Meanwhile, the bigger part of the lot was occupied by a Gibson's store starting in the (I think late-) 1960s, and into the 1970s. I'm not sure when it was closed and torn down. Strangely enough, an old parking lot light from the Gibson's era still stands, and wasn't knocked down with the rest of the store. That store was Plano's sole discount center until the much-later arrivals of Kmart and Walmart.

Will be interesting (and strange) to see something else on those lots besides retailers of the past.


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The_Overdog
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby The_Overdog » 05 Apr 2021 16:36

Underwhelming? It's currently a long failed big box store with a giant parking lot, and the P&Z group recommends denial, based on the 'potential' of the lot. LOL, what potential? The lot behind it is empty and has always been even though the city has grown everywhere else. Even The Range ran away more than a decade ago.

Also: the David McDavid Acura is moving to another location within Plano, hence the city continues to cannibalize itself. I guess the DNT is also filled with potential that can only be realized via hopscotching car lots. The city really should make a plan for all the former major car lots on Plano Parkway now no-credit fly-by-nite versions, but I guess they are too busy identifying potential elsewhere.

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undefinedprocess
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby undefinedprocess » 06 Apr 2021 09:20

The_Overdog wrote:Underwhelming? It's currently a long failed big box store with a giant parking lot, and the P&Z group recommends denial, based on the 'potential' of the lot. LOL, what potential? The lot behind it is empty and has always been even though the city has grown everywhere else. Even The Range ran away more than a decade ago.

Also: the David McDavid Acura is moving to another location within Plano, hence the city continues to cannibalize itself. I guess the DNT is also filled with potential that can only be realized via hopscotching car lots. The city really should make a plan for all the former major car lots on Plano Parkway now no-credit fly-by-nite versions, but I guess they are too busy identifying potential elsewhere.

I feel like there's so much more opportunity at that corner considering the fact that you're at the corner of 75 & PGBT, a 5 minute walk from the CityLine DART station. Collin Creek is right across 75, Downtown Plano just north. This is essentially the entry to Plano coming up 75, and with Richardson's Telecom Corridor just south, this piece of land deserves a lot more in my opinion. Since Plano has so little land left for new development (and they've limited what can be done with it), redevelopment, especially on a site as prominent as this, should be something more.

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exelone31
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby exelone31 » 06 Apr 2021 09:56

I can't see the DMN article, but is this in reference to the land near Fry's?

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The_Overdog
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby The_Overdog » 06 Apr 2021 10:01

I can't see the DMN article, but is this in reference to the land near Fry's?

Yes, it involves demolishing Fry's and building two 5-6 story buildings on the old footprint.

Since Plano has so little land left for new development (and they've limited what can be done with it), redevelopment, especially on a site as prominent as this, should be something more.


Can you explain what you mean by 'more'? I mean, there is currently a moderately occupied office in front (old Wells Fargo and drop in office suites), and this is no where near Plano's CBD (Legacy), so the current office is struggling.

The commercial across the street is marginal. What's left? Are you talking taller residential or fancier (the proposal is run-of-the-mill infill, not fancy) or some office relocation? I don't see a relocation to this location happening any time soon (next solid decade).

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Addison
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby Addison » 06 Apr 2021 10:43

I don't see an issue with what's being proposed for the Fry's site.

Any other city in DFW would be thrilled to have such a development.

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THRILLHO
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby THRILLHO » 06 Apr 2021 12:01

Well don't get any hopes up:

"Plano gives thumbs down on Bush Turnpike mixed-use project"
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2021/04/06/plano-gives-thumbs-down-on-bush-turnpike-mixed-use-project/
plan commissioners weren’t having it and voted overwhelmingly against the development plan. The commissioners balked at the idea of including residential buildings in the project.

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undefinedprocess
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby undefinedprocess » 06 Apr 2021 15:26

The_Overdog wrote:
I can't see the DMN article, but is this in reference to the land near Fry's?

Yes, it involves demolishing Fry's and building two 5-6 story buildings on the old footprint.

Since Plano has so little land left for new development (and they've limited what can be done with it), redevelopment, especially on a site as prominent as this, should be something more.


Can you explain what you mean by 'more'? I mean, there is currently a moderately occupied office in front (old Wells Fargo and drop in office suites), and this is no where near Plano's CBD (Legacy), so the current office is struggling.

The commercial across the street is marginal. What's left? Are you talking taller residential or fancier (the proposal is run-of-the-mill infill, not fancy) or some office relocation? I don't see a relocation to this location happening any time soon (next solid decade).

I don't mean anything "fancy." Some of the messages that've been posted since your reply mention that the commissioners were upset about the proposal of residential, which I think is stupid. I guess what I mean is just more density. I understand that this isn't Plano's CBD, but I feel that the proximity to DART, 75, and PGBT warrants more density. Not in terms of office, but residential.

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quixomniac
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby quixomniac » 06 Apr 2021 21:37

The plano commissioners dont even want to include residential much less high density residential.
How backwards can they be?! Cityline with all its faults is right across from it. They are right next to a Dart station that will soon include the Cotton belt line, with a straight shot to DFW airport.

It will probably end up being another office tower.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 07 Apr 2021 14:09

From a city government perspective, residential uses generally have a much lower revenue to expense ratio. Single family residential (which isn't proposed here) generally doesn't generate enough tax revenue to even cover costs.

If you want low tax rates as a way to attract businesses you want as little residential development as possible. If I lived in Plano I would applaud this.

DPatel304
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby DPatel304 » 07 Apr 2021 16:31

Hannibal Lecter wrote:From a city government perspective, residential uses generally have a much lower revenue to expense ratio. Single family residential (which isn't proposed here) generally doesn't generate enough tax revenue to even cover costs.

If you want low tax rates as a way to attract businesses you want as little residential development as possible. If I lived in Plano I would applaud this.


This assumes that the proposed residential that is being nixed would be replaced by an equal amount of office/retail space, correct?

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quixomniac
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby quixomniac » 07 Apr 2021 19:55

Hannibal Lecter wrote:From a city government perspective, residential uses generally have a much lower revenue to expense ratio. Single family residential (which isn't proposed here) generally doesn't generate enough tax revenue to even cover costs.

If you want low tax rates as a way to attract businesses you want as little residential development as possible. If I lived in Plano I would applaud this.


I understand where you’re coming from, it makes sense. But IMO it feels shortsighted. There are plenty of other places where you can do 100% office space. Collin Creek is sitting pretty empty on the other side. But This is right across from Cityline. A big part of reason for its success in drawing State Farm, was State Farm wanting to attract younger workers, who want residential and retail nearby. While residential may not create enough revenue, it is a sacrifice needed to get the big fish office space. And this site has that potential! It is right next to a dart station AND a highway with a straight shot to DFW. Anything less than mixed use here is not living up to the potential.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby The_Overdog » 08 Apr 2021 09:03

There is actually a document from a land use consultant in the same P&Z document that discussed this site that describes how Plano maximizes land value through the constrained release of residential, and therefore maximizing property tax, which is how the city is funded. Not through commercial sales or commercial property tax. It suggests this corner is maxed out on general residential but has other more specific forms that could be considered. My experience says that once the Collin Creek area is built out and that residential is absorbed, these guys could propose the exact same thing and it would be approved.

I could point to a half dozen commercial and office products that have been denied (one that I worked on) over the past few years, mostly due to residential proximity, and vague concerns about lowering property values.

There are cities in other states mostly funded by commercial property, but in general not in Texas. If they were they would look very different.

You also cannot look at residential, commercial, and office as separate entities within the same general area. They all build and feed on each other. This area is evidence that each type will move on to where they are better mixed.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby The_Overdog » 16 Apr 2021 18:03

Another big multifamily (2800 units in up to 25 stories) request in the same area (south Plano near US75) is probably going to be denied by the Planning and Zoning group. The request is to bulldoze the Bel Aire Oaks apartments on the corner of Alma and Plano Parkway.

I have no dog in this fight, but its kind of hilarious how the planners tie themselves in knots to deny this for a reason other than "we don't like it". Not a complete neighborhood, not enough retail, no school, located along the G Bush (only a tiny portion is - most is on Alma and Plano Parkway), not enough parks, and lots of whining they didn't fill out the documents correctly. Most zoning documents are pretty boring so compared to that this one is laugher.

https://content.civicplus.com/api/asset ... 3c213ffb84

LongonBigD
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby LongonBigD » 16 Apr 2021 22:16

I can’t believe these apartments are still standing. A friend of mine lived there more than 30 years ago and they weren’t too great even back then.

I can't believe Plano would not want them replaced with something which would bring in more tax revenue. What could they argue? It’s already occupied with apartments.

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quixomniac
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby quixomniac » 17 Apr 2021 15:45

The_Overdog wrote:Another big multifamily (2800 units in up to 25 stories)...
I have no dog in this fight...
https://content.civicplus.com/api/asset ... 3c213ffb84


Thé Overdog has no dog in this fight? Pun intended? :D
Any renderings in that document or more info? Unless its the stuff starting at pg 37?
I suppose they mention 25 stories max, but does that always imply they will reach it?

I’m thinking this is just an extension of the backlash from the Plano of Tomorrow Comprehensive Plan. Vote down any kind of density. Regardless, even I would think 25 stories would stick out like a sore thumb here. Maybe they were looking for something similar to heritage creek side across the street. 4-6 story apt blocks sprinkled with retail and green space would do it. Something like the Richardson development on 75/Campbell.

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The_Overdog
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Re: Plano: misc. developments

Postby The_Overdog » 17 Apr 2021 16:32

Another construction project sliding in under the radar - part of the Dell/EMC/NTT Data office building on Plano Parkway and near Custer Road is currently being demolished. Just ripping up the parking lot and through the concrete office portion with a bulldozer. You can still see some office equipment in the cubicles! No idea what the plan there is.


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