The Transition of Uptown

[dallaz]

It’s becoming more and more evident that Uptown is transitioning from a entertainment district, to an actual neighborhood.

What do you think the future of Uptown will be? Will it be a benchmark for other booming areas of Dallas to follow?

What are your thoughts?

News Video:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcdfw ... ml%3famp=y

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Uptown will definitely be a bench mark. But I don't know where the next urban district that will follow uptown is.

[eburress]

Between the Design District, Deep Ellum, Knox/Henderson, Bishop Arts, and the Cedars, and so on, there are a number of contenders.

[Tnexster]

Its difficult to figure out which one is closest to making that leap although I would tend to give that to DE just because of the momentum, night life and just the general level of activity.

[eburress]

^ You could be right. My money is on Deep Ellum or the Design District.

I thought this was a very relevant news story, by the way. Thanks for posting dallaz. My wife and I are currently struggling with this, choosing between State Thomas or the Park Cities long-term.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I don't see Dunhill Partners doing anything in the Design district. I don't see zoning changes or infrastructure improvements happening.

Before Deep Ellum blew up, the city helped improve the pedestrian experience. I don't see that happening in the Design district.

At this point VP is ahead of Design District. Even the Cedars is ahead of them in terms forming a neighborhood.

[Tnexster]

The last few times I have made the turn from I-30 to 345 that overlooks DE I have been taken by the number of cranes hanging over DE, it looks like it's booming and I believe it is with more to come. With all of the activity taking place, new residential, hotels, office and Baylor it seems like it will come together the fastest.

[dallaz]

With kids being a growing demographic, I wonder how long it will take for a school to be placed in the Uptown/Downtown area?

I agree with the comments above. Deep Ellum is probably the most promising area in Dallas as of now. Since Deep Ellum is an entertainment district, do you think it’ll have to change as the residential population grows? (as in limiting the hours of the bars, clubs, etc.)

And if it does, would that hurt the character of Deep Ellum? I hosnetly don’t want Deep Ellum to be polished like Uptown. I like the gritty artisty vibe.

[lakewoodhobo]

With kids being a growing demographic, I wonder how long it will take for a school to be placed in the Uptown/Downtown area?

I think DISD was wise to keep City Park Elementary after it closed in 2012 with the intention of reopening it once the demographics change enough.

And if it does, would that hurt the character of Deep Ellum? I hosnetly don’t want Deep Ellum to be polished like Uptown. I like the gritty artisty vibe.

The bars in Deep Ellum operate by Special Use Permit, so the city has a lot more control over them than in Uptown. I imagine that when enough people live in DE and start complaining about the noise and crime, you'll see a lot of them shut down. Hopefully the neighborhood will maintain its gritty aesthetic as it grows.

[DPatel304]

With kids being a growing demographic, I wonder how long it will take for a school to be placed in the Uptown/Downtown area?

FYI, the news video clip says there were 800 children living in Uptown last year, and that number doubled [to 1,600] this year. So children are still a VERY small portion of the population.

However, I do think that trend will definitely continue. I think it's only a matter of time before the party scene leaves Uptown completely. Neighborhood bars will still stick around, but once the party scene leaves, I think the entire area will feel very 'family-friendly'.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Sounds just like Vickery in 1986.

[Matt777]

I'll believe it when I see it. Yes, some of the "party" places are going out, but I haven't seen a big influx of retail, grocery (other than Whole Foods), or neighborhood services to replace it. Nor has there been a big investment in increasing pedestrian infrastructure. Just more residential. High density Plano coming soon? Nice, but boring?

[cowboyeagle05]

Yeah, the lounges are on their way in. I do believe this is a "things get worse before they get better" kinda deal. Uptown has lost the trendy crowd as far as bars so now its left with some people trying to pick up the crumbs and open their nighttime lounge clubs where they can sneak by. The other reality is that residential is still on the uptick and Uptown is getting surrounded by more and more residential in other neighborhoods which make the demographics better for Uptown and other businesses. The retail can come but more changes are likely before that flip.

[muncien]

I've always felt that DISD has to totally rethink how they manage schools in the core areas of the city. Heck, even suburban cities are building their schools to more resemble a Google Office than a traditional school in order to prepare the kids for what lies ahead. Let's face it... They won't be working in stand alone factories in the the future, but more likely open office concepts, or even at home using technology.
Ironically enough, I think First Baptist Academy's approach (at least from a design perspective) is a perfect model for the urban school campus. DISD needs to part ways with most of the current real estate they have in the city center.

[tamtagon]

The residential component of Uptown will continue expand and continue to become more expensive. Lots and parcels will be consolidated, large high rise units will follow.

As the pretentious trend-following crowds scout around town for the next place to be, Uptown will settle into its role that establishes the trends, people who live there will know the difference and will be able to afford early adopter experimentation sorting things out. Dallas' infamous pretentious crowd will follow along closely, but few from this crowd will really be able to infiltrate and observe since the trend-setters will not be pretending. This is when/where the truly affluent are drawn to the creative set more than anything else; there's a sweet-spot somewhere in there, the scene is as exclusive as it is inclusive, discriminating for sure!

Uptown will be sated with neighborhood bars, swank & tony lounges, and may give a glancing look the appearance of a somewhat sedate nightlife scene, and while the most uproarious activities will be few, the action will be rarefied and smart and creative and, well, frankly hold more appeal to people from outside the South Central US than to North Texas residents.

A whole nutha level, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Most people wont get it.

[DPatel304]

As the pretentious trend-following crowds scout around town for the next place to be, Uptown will settle into its role that establishes the trends, people who live there will know the difference and will be able to afford early adopter experimentation sorting things out. Dallas' infamous pretentious crowd will follow along closely, but few from this crowd will really be able to infiltrate and observe since the trend-setters will not be pretending. This is when/where the truly affluent are drawn to the creative set more than anything else; there's a sweet-spot somewhere in there, the scene is as exclusive as it is inclusive, discriminating for sure!

I would say that crowd has mostly left the Uptown party scene. I'd say Bottled Blonde and Backyard seem to be trendy these days, and Waterproof at the Statler also draws a decent crowd. Main St. in Deep Ellum has a few spots that would be popular with this crowd as well (Stirr, Harlowe, and now Vidorra).

I agree with what you're saying about Uptown though. I guess it would become the Dallas equivalent of the "upper east side". It used to be way more common for people to move to Uptown straight out of college, but I feel like that's just not as practical any more for a lot of people.

[dukemeredith]

Uptown will be sated with neighborhood bars, swank & tony lounges, and may give a glancing look the appearance of a somewhat sedate nightlife scene, and while the most uproarious activities will be few, the action will be rarefied and smart and creative and, well, frankly hold more appeal to people from outside the South Central US than to North Texas residents.

A whole nutha level, I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Most people wont get it.

Over the next 20+ years, I agree that this is Uptown’s next step. At first blush, your description reminds me of certain social scenes in Chicago.

Either evolve to this level or lose relevance.

[PonyUp13]

As an Uptown resident of 5+ years I'm fine if the nightlife element evolves and we're left with low-key bars, restaurants, and neighborhood services.

The element of people who Ubered in from the suburbs to have a Vegas-esque experience on Friday and Saturday nights were really annoying to most locals.

Let Deep Ellum and whatever comes next cater to the summer interns, the TX/OU partiers, the Plano weekenders, the conventioneers, bottle service sparkler order-ers, etc, and Uptown can be a nice place to live as a well-off young professional with plenty to occupy you on the weekend.

[Matt777]

LOL y'all are acting like Uptown is making some sort of quantum leap. It is changing, that's for sure, but just because the bars you didn't like are leaving doesn't mean high end retail, cool bars, and cool restaurants are coming in. I have seen the opposite taking place. Idle Rich was a true neighborhood bar, great food and drink program, and did not cause problems. Now there's "One Sette" and "Circo party restaurant." Are you kidding me? The city needs more Idle Rich and less "One Sette." I see the neighborhood going from loud young douche to 30-something douche. That's not really an improvement. There is lots of room for improvement.

[DPatel304]

LOL y'all are acting like Uptown is making some sort of quantum leap. It is changing, that's for sure, but just because the bars you didn't like are leaving doesn't mean high end retail, cool bars, and cool restaurants are coming in. I have seen the opposite taking place. Idle Rich was a true neighborhood bar, great food and drink program, and did not cause problems. Now there's "One Sette" and "Circo party restaurant." Are you kidding me? The city needs more Idle Rich and less "One Sette." I see the neighborhood going from loud young douche to 30-something douche. That's not really an improvement. There is lots of room for improvement.

Idle Rich was definitely the type of place I wanted to see there for the long term.

I agree that One Sette and Circo are a step backwards in terms of the vision we all see for Uptown. I honestly don't see One Sette surviving past Feb 2019. Circo might last longer, but the atmosphere these places are trying to create just doesn't exist in Uptown, no matter how hard they try. It seems like the owners of these bars are still trying to make Uptown what is used to be before Deep Ellum made its comeback. I think they will try, and ultimately fail, and, hopefully, they will realize they need to move to a different area, and take these club/party bars elsewhere.

I'm not trying to come off as some NIMBY who doesn't want these bars in Uptown. While it's true I don't want them there, I'm mostly saying this because I just don't believe the demand for them is there. I guess the market will ultimately decide if they belong or not, but my guess is they won't last for long.

[tamtagon]

I was 'asked to leave' Idle Rich a long long time ago. hahahaha

[Matt777]

I was 'asked to leave' Idle Rich a long long time ago. hahahaha

LOL is there more to this story?

[cowboyeagle05]

LOL y'all are acting like Uptown is making some sort of quantum leap. It is changing, that's for sure, but just because the bars you didn't like are leaving doesn't mean high end retail, cool bars, and cool restaurants are coming in. I have seen the opposite taking place. Idle Rich was a true neighborhood bar, great food and drink program, and did not cause problems. Now there's "One Sette" and "Circo party restaurant." Are you kidding me? The city needs more Idle Rich and less "One Sette." I see the neighborhood going from loud young douche to 30-something douche. That's not really an improvement. There is lots of room for improvement.

Idle Rich was definitely the type of place I wanted to see there for the long term.

I agree that One Sette and Circo are a step backwards in terms of the vision we all see for Uptown. I honestly don't see One Sette surviving past Feb 2019. Circo might last longer, but the atmosphere these places are trying to create just doesn't exist in Uptown, no matter how hard they try. It seems like the owners of these bars are still trying to make Uptown what is used to be before Deep Ellum made its comeback. I think they will try, and ultimately fail, and, hopefully, they will realize they need to move to a different area, and take these club/party bars elsewhere.

I'm not trying to come off as some NIMBY who doesn't want these bars in Uptown. While it's true I don't want them there, I'm mostly saying this because I just don't believe the demand for them is there. I guess the market will ultimately decide if they belong or not, but my guess is they won't last for long.

That's what I said above it will get "worse" before it gets better. A few bronies will attempt to move in and open up their dream bars thinking they will be the next great Uptown venue when really they will be the last thing of that era, a smudge of significance on the history of Uptown. Uptown will evolve cause the residential isn't going downhill and Whole Foods will help it stay as leased as ever. More residential will replace other properties. Eventually, as some of these club/bar spots sit empty owners will turn them back into retail spaces or sell to the next investor looking to build something that works. The settling in will happen cause the demographics look bright for Uptown.

[dallaz]

I've always felt that DISD has to totally rethink how they manage schools in the core areas of the city. Heck, even suburban cities are building their schools to more resemble a Google Office than a traditional school in order to prepare the kids for what lies ahead. Let's face it... They won't be working in stand alone factories in the the future, but more likely open office concepts, or even at home using technology.
Ironically enough, I think First Baptist Academy's approach (at least from a design perspective) is a perfect model for the urban school campus. DISD needs to part ways with most of the current real estate they have in the city center.

If DISD ever decides to build a new campus downtown, it need to be an urban concept. But knowing Dallas...it could just be a traditional campus plopped in the middle of Downtown.

[mcrdal15]

Why can't Downtown become the new Uptown? Seems obvious to me and the infrastructure is in place for it.

[eburress]

Why can't Downtown become the new Uptown? Seems obvious to me and the infrastructure is in place for it.

That would be the absolute best case scenario, in my opinion.

[DPatel304]

I definitely see that happening. I think Uptown will lose its status as being the affluent urban district in Dallas, and I could possible see the Arts District taking over that spot.

[mcrdal15]

I definitely see that happening. I think Uptown will lose its status as being the affluent urban district in Dallas, and I could possible see the Arts District taking over that spot.

Old East Dallas along Good Latimer is another candidate. I hate to admit this, but I did speak with a bartender at Bottle Blonde who said a lot of the land around there was being bought up for similar establishments. Not sure if this is true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Kung Fu/Clutch/Concrete Cowboy/Trophy Room variety ends up in that area. I doubt Deep Ellum proper will end up with those types of places, but I can definitely see that portion of Good Latimer becoming the next Uptown or West 6th St. They can call it GoodLat

[I45Tex]

I'm Congressman Goodlatte, and I approved this message.


https://goodlatte.house.gov

[lakewoodhobo]

Looks like the plan to sell and demolish William B. Travis is moving forward. DISD will be at City Plan Commission this week requesting a replat of the 2.493-acre tract of land, no doubt a condition for its sale.

It's on page 13 of the docket: https://dallascityhall.com/government/m ... Docket.pdf

[DPatel304]

Cool, thanks for sharing! Happy to see some re-development in this part of town, as I feel like the activity on McKinney Ave sorta dies down starting at this high school up until you start getting closer to West Village. The upcoming Central Market should definitely help bring some more energy to the area as well as this potential plot of land too.

[LongonBigD]

I seem to remember a mention months ago of this plan. I’m thinking they said they would relocate the school to property already owned by DISD near 75 and Fitzhugh. Does anyone know more?

All I can think is Ben Milan Elementary (a teardown??). If so, where does the elementary school go? They’ve already repurposed the other nearby school on Henderson. There is another TAG middle school at Haskell and Capital behind Kroger.

[quixomniac]

Is that confirmed? previous inquiries into selling of WB Travis on other forum say that the zoning change was to combine two tracts of land in order to expand the school. as seen here.
viewtopic.php?t=540

Given how involved parents are at that school, anyone sniffing any suggestion of selling the school would cause a media riot. This was back in 2018, so maybe things changed?

[tamtagon]

The only reason to move that school is because there's no playground. Kids shouldn't have to walk more than a mile to school.

[lakewoodhobo]

Is that confirmed? previous inquiries into selling of WB Travis on other forum say that the zoning change was to combine two tracts of land in order to expand the school. as seen here.
viewtopic.php?t=540

Given how involved parents are at that school, anyone sniffing any suggestion of selling the school would cause a media riot. This was back in 2018, so maybe things changed?

Thanks for the link. I was still going by this PowerPoint from September but if they've gone to the Oak Lawn Committee with expansion plans, we should assume they're expanding.

Screen Shot 2019-04-02 at 10.29.44 AM.jpg

[quixomniac]

The only reason to move that school is because there's no playground. Kids shouldn't have to walk more than a mile to school.

The school does have a small playground. Since it's a TAG/magnet school, most kids are not from the neighborhood, they take a school bus from their neighborhood, so they don't walk to school per say.

I wasn't aware that Ben Milam was being considered as an alternative.
It's much smaller than the current location, just by looking on google satellite maps.
Maybe it would make sense if they significantly expand it,
but overall it's a pretty bad location for a school. Right next to a highway.

I suppose this is only the nature of things, school are not set in stone.
Specially if they are on prime real estate ( like the one WB Travis is on) which has developers salivating
Just about every school within 15 min of that has closed and has needed to be repurposed,
except North Dallas HS, which I suppose is only a matter of time.

[LongonBigD]

Ben Milam is a terrible location for a school; however it has stood on that spot for over 100 years. If they need more room, conveniently the small apartment building immediately north was listed for sale a couple of weeks ago. The next lot north of that are some small dated condos ripe for redevelopment.

A moderrn extension (similar to Solar Prep on Henderson) along NCX where existing playground is would isolate a new playground (assuming lot acquisitions to the north) from the freeway.

Major flaw with this plan—still on McKinney Ave between Fitzhugh (finally being slowly upgrade developed) and Knox Street. Wouldn’t that be just kicking the same can down the road?

Better idea—DISD sells Milam property for another future residential tower.

[Matt777]

Ben Milam is a terrible location for a school; however it has stood on that spot for over 100 years. If they need more room, conveniently the small apartment building immediately north was listed for sale a couple of weeks ago. The next lot north of that are some small dated condos ripe for redevelopment.

A moderrn extension (similar to Solar Prep on Henderson) along NCX where existing playground is would isolate a new playground (assuming lot acquisitions to the north) from the freeway.

Major flaw with this plan—still on McKinney Ave between Fitzhugh (finally being slowly upgrade developed) and Knox Street. Wouldn’t that be just kicking the same can down the road?

Better idea—DISD sells Milam property for another future residential tower.

Hopefully they will buy that adjacent parcel to Milam, then form a modern extension to barricade it from 75 as you suggest. They shouldn't tear down the beautiful original structure, that just needs some elbow grease and new landscaping to really shine!

[casperitl]

Milam does provide an important role. Many of the children attending Milam have parents who work in service sector jobs in Uptown but live elsewhere. DISD has a program in place that provides parents the ability to drop off their kids at Milam close to their places of employment.

[quixomniac]

Milam does provide an important role. Many of the children attending Milam have parents who work in service sector jobs in Uptown but live elsewhere. DISD has a program in place that provides parents the ability to drop off their kids at Milam close to their places of employment.

Ben Milam is still open? How is everyone talking about moving Travis to Milam when Milam is still in operation.
My apologies for even mentioning the idea.

[LongonBigD]

DISD proposed demolishing Milam to make way for a new Travis. See a few posts below.

I didn’t know what they proposed for the Milam students. Apparently it was to merge them into Chavez (Ross & Carroll).

[jetnd87]

I don't know how many of you were out and about yesterday (Friday) afternoon, and I can only speak for Uptown, but I had a drink at The Henry, walked along McKinney, and ate dinner at Malai Kitchen in West Village and there were people everywhere. Streets were lined and patios were packed, and the stroll largely felt like on seamless experience like you'd have in any major walkable city. We have a long way to go to hit most of this forum's members' aspirations, but can we pause and appreciate just how far we've come in the last 10-15 years?


...and then the cynical side of me rejoins, "but yea look how far behind we started. The bar was super low..."

[Tnexster]

I don't know how many of you were out and about yesterday (Friday) afternoon, and I can only speak for Uptown, but I had a drink at The Henry, walked along McKinney, and ate dinner at Malai Kitchen in West Village and there were people everywhere. Streets were lined and patios were packed, and the stroll largely felt like on seamless experience like you'd have in any major walkable city. We have a long way to go to hit most of this forum's members' aspirations, but can we pause and appreciate just how far we've come in the last 10-15 years?


...and then the cynical side of me rejoins, "but yea look how far behind we started. The bar was super low..."

Dallas has changed so much. I have a picture somewhere of myself sitting on the railing in front of the Crescent. Behind me is the entire downtown skyline with no obstruction. If I could find it I'd post it.

[DPatel304]

I don't know how many of you were out and about yesterday (Friday) afternoon, and I can only speak for Uptown, but I had a drink at The Henry, walked along McKinney, and ate dinner at Malai Kitchen in West Village and there were people everywhere. Streets were lined and patios were packed, and the stroll largely felt like on seamless experience like you'd have in any major walkable city. We have a long way to go to hit most of this forum's members' aspirations, but can we pause and appreciate just how far we've come in the last 10-15 years?


...and then the cynical side of me rejoins, "but yea look how far behind we started. The bar was super low..."

I was also out yesterday around 6ish, and also noticed there were a lot of people out and about. It felt busier than normal, but maybe it's always like that on a Friday after work, and I'm just not out at that time, but you're right, every patio was busy, plenty of people walking the streets or using scooters. The weather was pretty perfect, so perhaps that brought out more people than usual, or maybe that level of activity is the norm now. Either way, very happy to see how far we have come.

What really shocks me is when I hit the Katy Trail on a Saturday or Sunday when the weather is nice. That area is absolutely packed full of people, and it's wonderful!

[DPatel304]

Parking space squabble on Dallas' McKinney Avenue ends in shooting
According to the Dallas Police Department, the incident took place on April 22 at around 12:34 a.m., when officers responded to a call about a shooting in the 2600 block of McKinney Avenue.

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city- ... -shooting/

Such a shame to see what has been happening to the Uptown party scene lately. I know there have been a couple of other similar incidents that took place a month or so ago (I believe two others happened outside of Level).

On the plus side, it seems like the party scene is likely leaving the Uptown area, but really all that means is that these same crimes will likely occur somewhere else (most likely Deep Ellum). I really hope we can get a handle on all the crime before it starts to get out of hand and people get scared away from the nightlife yet again.

[Hannibal Lecter]

What’s next in the development of booming Uptown Dallas

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ing-uptown

[clcrash19]

Wow, alot of stuff in the pipeline in the next 2/3 years.

[DPatel304]

Thanks for sharing! Great summary of how much the area will change in the next couple of years.

My only complaint is that there isn't a single condo tower on that list. I really don't get it, what is it going to take for developers to build more condos (preferably ones that are not super high-end luxury) in Dallas?

[Tnexster]

If Harwood does well with Blue Ciel they will do another one. Maybe that market is just still too limited.

[willyk]

The six projects at the south end between VP and Cedar Springs will make for a noticeable extension of the neighborhood into what is now a big hole. I hope to see all of those parking lots go away too.