Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Def need to bring the gas station up to OLC. The store should face Cole and pumps be on the back facing CVS if one is approved.

Well how does one go about bringing this up to the OLC...do we just email them?

DPatel304 wrote:Awful news. I had really hoped we were past the point of seeing this suburban developments in prime areas like Uptown.

The success of Uptown has always been rooted in the fact that it provides an urban lifestyle (being able to walk to bars and events) while retaining all the conveniences of suburbia (like gas stations and abundant free parking). Letting a handful of armchair city planners (many of whom have not and will not ever live in Uptown) dictate how it should be developed would just kill the golden goose and drive all the people with the sort of incomes required to fill up luxury high-rises and support high-end retail and dining off to Legacy or Frisco or whatever next iteration of Suburban Urban pops up.

I think the problem with that entire city block is that the real estate is owned in pieces by various trust and individuals so it is difficult to piece together the whole block into one large urban development like what they are going to do with Central Market. Not sure how this block will ever come together into one cohesive play.

Its called public engagement in government and letting citizens be a part of the process. What you have to decide is if citizens should be allowed any input at all. Some of the arm chair planners kill high rises, dense developments, Walmarts, gas stations, drive thrus, etc. Where is the line on how much public involvement in the process is necessary is what's up for debate. After all politician's don't have degrees in City Planning but City Staff do yet when city staff says yes this is a good idea the politicians aka a fancy title for a citizen say no sometimes. You could say its a system of checks and balances at the local level.

TNWE wrote: Letting a handful of armchair city planners (many of whom have not and will not ever live in Uptown) dictate how it should be developed would just kill the golden goose and drive all the people with the sort of incomes required to fill up luxury high-rises and support high-end retail and dining...

Can you point me to the ‘luxury high rises’ in Uptown? We moved out of Uptown ~2 years ago, because the housing stock was lackluster. Places like One Uptown, Carlisle & Vine, The Katy or The Jordan are neither ‘luxury’ nor ‘high rises’. The only place in Uptown we toured that seemed to come close to checking one of those boxes was Park District.

Also, if hoping for more than a gas station on a prime plot in one of the most expensive sub-markets in Texas is going to ‘kill the golden goose’, the real estate market is in a much more precarious position than I thought...

LPG wrote:

TNWE wrote: Letting a handful of armchair city planners (many of whom have not and will not ever live in Uptown) dictate how it should be developed would just kill the golden goose and drive all the people with the sort of incomes required to fill up luxury high-rises and support high-end retail and dining...

Can you point me to the ‘luxury high rises’ in Uptown? We moved out of Uptown ~2 years ago, because the housing stock was lackluster. Places like One Uptown, Carlisle & Vine, The Katy or The Jordan are neither ‘luxury’ nor ‘high rises’. The only place in Uptown we toured that seemed to come close to checking one of those boxes was Park District.

Also, if hoping for more than a gas station on a prime plot in one of the most expensive sub-markets in Texas is going to ‘kill the golden goose’, the real estate market is in a much more precarious position than I thought...

They are luxury trust me its a perspective thing. The simple fact that all these luxury properties you speak of have all these amenities most of which don't charge for directly, plus things like controlled access, elevators, 24/7 access, security patrols, emergency maintenance, courtesy officers, resident events, online pay portal for rent and maintenance requests, identity and background checks as part of the application process are what make them luxury. Its a perspective thing and when you have lived in a garden style apartment complex south of I-30 with residents who part of their rent is subsidized by the federal government you will understand the difference. None of the things I mentioned above are necessities so they are luxuries. The bigger one to me personally is the background checks as part of the approval process and handing out of keys. Many lower end properties don't even require an ID to pick up keys for move in day so anyone could email a copy of a license because there are people who make fake ones online for you for $50 bucks they apply move in and mess up someone else's credit. Where I live while it has granite counter tops doesn't have a onsite staff and simply had me email a scanned copy of of my ID to keep on file. Also the apartment was dirty when I moved in. Yes they ran my credit and social security number but that's not hard to work around when it comes to lower end properties. These may seem like basic things but trust me they are not standard things for all apartments so yes they are luxury properties.

These may seem like basic things but trust me they are not standard things for all apartments so yes they are luxury properties.

So basically every apartment north of I30 is luxury, or everything that is not Section 8? Not sure I agree with that. I think they are just average apartments, neither junk nor luxury.

I rented a one-bedroom in far north Dallas for $550 in 2009 and it had all those things, including 3 shootings while I was there (big garden apartment complex, I never heard them). The one I lived in before that was $800 for the same size, so it's not like that was the average going rate in 2009.

Also background checks for rental purposes cost like $50, they aren't a luxury.

Here's some good news.... Haywire will be taking over the old Water Grill location on McKinney. Haywire has a location at Legacy West. Concept is owned by FB Society which also owns Sixty Vines, Whiskey Cake, The Ranch, Velvet Taco and a few others. Good food! Should be a really nice fit here...

https://escapehatchdallas.com/2021/01/p ... wn-dallas/

That's great news! I frequent the Legacy West area quite a bit because my parents live around there. I've actually always wanted to check out Haywire, but never have gotten the chance.

It looks like a solid venue, and their other concepts are all fantastic and successful, so I can definitely see this doing well in Uptown.

Maybe not something most customers would notice, but, a block-ish away over at Fearing's - they procure the same beef from "A Bar N Ranch" (http://abarnranch.com/) that Haywire says they also use.

I still wonder about what might replace the old Perry's location at 2000 McKinney.

Another article talking about Haywire, but this one also mentions that FB Society will also bring their Mexican Sugar concept to Uptown later this year. Not sure where that might go?? Maybe the old Circo space??

https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... -in-plano/

More great news! I only had a chance to go to Mexican Sugar once, but I was definitely a fan and have enjoyed most of the concepts that this team has opened. I'm so glad to see them investing into the Uptown area, I'm really hoping we can get a location of Ida Claire soon!

I'm also loving their confidence in the Uptown area given the recent pandemic as well. Is this a sign that things are on the rebound and we may see more restaurant openings to come?

Kelley USA wrote:Another article talking about Haywire, but this one also mentions that FB Society will also bring their Mexican Sugar concept to Uptown later this year. Not sure where that might go?? Maybe the old Circo space??

https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... -in-plano/

As the ol’ lawn sign saying goes, ‘Don’t Plano MY Uptown.’

The old Christie’s spot and space next to SEV are both at lease. Potentially there?

https://shopcompanies.com/sites/default ... 1611154420

Isn't Dream Cafe moving into the old Christie's spot?

Yes, Dream Cafe is moving into some of that space. Mexican Sugar would probably go for a higher profile location too. Now that I think about it, maybe the old Perry's Steakhouse or perhaps the endcap at McKinney & Olive. Both of those would fit their size requirement.

LPG wrote:As the ol’ lawn sign saying goes, ‘Don’t Plano MY Uptown.’

Is this next to CVS - the current abandoned gas station/car wash?

LPG wrote:

QuickTrip has leased just over 1 acre at 3512 Cole Ave. in Dallas. Ton Filley and Jack Weir with The Retail Connection represented the tenant

.

Terrible.

https://www.dmagazine.com/commercial-real-estate/2021/01/deal-ticker-another-california-based-real-estate-firm-relocates-to-dallas/

What a joke that section of land is. A freestanding pharmacy a single retail strip center on the other side and now a gas station across from the pharmacy. That entire block section should by high rise. This isn't even worthy of suburban use much less urban.

So how did we get to this point? Is this a land owner unwilling to sell the land? Is this developers simply not wanting to purchase this block? Is the land owner asking too much for the property? I'm sort of baffled. It almost seems like the owner has some sort of grudge against Uptown!

MrsKravitz wrote:Is this next to CVS - the current abandoned gas station/car wash?

LPG wrote:

QuickTrip has leased just over 1 acre at 3512 Cole Ave. in Dallas. Ton Filley and Jack Weir with The Retail Connection represented the tenant

.

Terrible.

https://www.dmagazine.com/commercial-real-estate/2021/01/deal-ticker-another-california-based-real-estate-firm-relocates-to-dallas/

This is comically tragic. On the plus side, Quick Trip will be a step up from what's there, no doubt.

It's really a shame what we are stuck with on this particular block. Uptown has still managed to thrive in spite of this block, and if we still get the Central Market development, it'll help reduce the negative impact of this area.

In the meantime, I'm thinking we're simply stuck with this development for another 10+ years, but perhaps eventually it can be put to better use.

MrsKravitz wrote:Is this next to CVS - the current abandoned gas station/car wash?

LPG wrote:

QuickTrip has leased just over 1 acre at 3512 Cole Ave. in Dallas. Ton Filley and Jack Weir with The Retail Connection represented the tenant

.

Terrible.

https://www.dmagazine.com/commercial-real-estate/2021/01/deal-ticker-another-california-based-real-estate-firm-relocates-to-dallas/

Yes, it also includes the abandoned restaurant next door.
So it should make for a fairly large gas station, which has most people here concerned about its design
And the impact it can have on the pedestrian oriented development.

Do we know how to get the OLC involved to voice concerns and to address the overall lack of urban zoning needed for Uptown?

I wonder how much Quick Trip would pay for a location like that? I would rather see a higher and better use too, but that is an awfully good location for a gas station, and Quick Trip is a big operator, so I bet the price was pretty strong. That might be the simplest explanation for why we aren’t getting something better here.

The same thing has happened to the Bishop Arts street car stop. A CVS and gas station across the street. So dumb that the city of Dallas hasn’t zoned properties in transit zones appropriately.

^ Certainly can't have profitable, taxpaying businesses that service the people who actually live there, can we?

Ask yourself this: How many people a day use that boondoggle streetcar, and how many use that CVS and gas station?

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ Certainly can't have profitable, taxpaying businesses that service the people who actually live there, can we?

Ask yourself this: How many people a day use that boondoggle streetcar, and how many use that CVS and gas station?

More people would use it, if higher density uses were appropriated for the land along the lines. The CVS could have been build in a residential building and the gas station...that didn’t have to be right there.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ Certainly can't have profitable, taxpaying businesses that service the people who actually live there, can we?

Ask yourself this: How many people a day use that boondoggle streetcar, and how many use that CVS and gas station?

My dude. How often do you minimize or dismiss others due to what part of town they live in? Unless you’re a Cliffie, then congratulations on the new place!

Lest we forget that the ‘hood fought the CVS you seem to be defending.

Remind me again, how many people use the streetcar on a daily basis?

Tnexster wrote:Remind me again, how many people use the streetcar on a daily basis?

NOTE: Typo corrected. 151k, not 15k.

The most recent figure I see is 151k/year trips from 2008. Source: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018/04 ... r-be-free/ At 365 days per year and most folks making a round trip, that comes out to just over 200 users/day.

Note that figure is from when it was free, and pre-COVID. Supposedly they were going to start charging a fare last summer. I don't know if that actually happened or what effect it had. By comparison, when Atlanta started charging a fare on their very similar streetcar ridership dropped by over half, and half of those who did ride didn't pay. Source: https://www.ajc.com/news/local/atlanta- ... WqLgHbARI/

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

Tnexster wrote:Remind me again, how many people use the streetcar on a daily basis?

The most recent figure I see is 15k/year trips from 2008. Source: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018/04 ... r-be-free/ At 365 days per year and most folks making a round trip, that comes out to just over 200 users/day.

Note that figure is from when it was free, and pre-COVID. Supposedly they were going to start charging a fare last summer. I don't know if that actually happened or what effect it had. By comparison, when Atlanta started charging a fare on their very similar streetcar ridership dropped by over half, and half of those who did ride didn't pay. Source: https://www.ajc.com/news/local/atlanta- ... WqLgHbARI/

I think you meant to type 151K per year, not 15.

And while we're crunching numbers, that comes out to an average of 3.76 users per run. Presuming most passengers don't ride the full route, they are probably averaging about 1 passenger on a car at any one time.

LPG wrote:My dude. How often do you minimize or dismiss others due to what part of town they live in? Unless you’re a Cliffie, then congratulations on the new place!

Huh? How did my comment in anyway "minimize or dismiss others due to what part of town they live in"? The only thing I "dismissed" was the stupid streetcar. I didn't say anything negative about a person or persons. The reference to Oak Cliff as only to identify which line was being discussed. It's location is irrelevant -- it would be just a stupid anywhere else (as are all of DART's rail lines).

BTW, I used to live in Oak Cliff.

Tucy wrote:I think you meant to type 151K per year, not 15.

Typo corrected -- Thanks. The daily ridership figures were correct.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

Tnexster wrote:Remind me again, how many people use the streetcar on a daily basis?

NOTE: Typo corrected. 151k, not 15k.

The most recent figure I see is 151k/year trips from 2008. Source: https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018/04 ... r-be-free/ At 365 days per year and most folks making a round trip, that comes out to just over 200 users/day.

Note that figure is from when it was free, and pre-COVID. Supposedly they were going to start charging a fare last summer. I don't know if that actually happened or what effect it had. By comparison, when Atlanta started charging a fare on their very similar streetcar ridership dropped by over half, and half of those who did ride didn't pay. Source: https://www.ajc.com/news/local/atlanta- ... WqLgHbARI/

I would assume that the fare was postponed but this is Dallas so who knows. Those numbers are actually better than I would have expected.....still pathetic but better than I would have guessed. So given those pre-covid numbers we can figure out how much this is costing per rider?

R1070 wrote:Do we know how to get the OLC involved to voice concerns and to address the overall lack of urban zoning needed for Uptown?

OLC can only object to a zoning change. If there’s no zoning change, they have no standing.

NM

The fare for the streetcar was implemented as scheduled.

Jay9398 wrote:The fare for the streetcar was implemented as scheduled.

Oh okay so how did that plus covid impact ridership?

ArtVandelay wrote:

R1070 wrote:Do we know how to get the OLC involved to voice concerns and to address the overall lack of urban zoning needed for Uptown?

OLC can only object to a zoning change. If there’s no zoning change, they have no standing.

Can someone with more zoning knowledge explain this map then?
If I understand correctly, they are going to use both PD 190 and part of PD 193.
Which are zoned for different uses. So unless there is an overlap in uses,
Wouldnt they have to apply for a zoning change ?

Here is the map


Some excerpts from PD 190
"The only uses permitted on the Property are those uses allowed in an MF-2 Multiple-Family
District, O-2 Office District, and GR General Retail District. (Ord. Nos. 18539; 25508) "
http://www.dallascityattorney.com/51P/A ... %20190.pdf

Some excerpts from PD 193
(1) To achieve buildings more urban in form.
(2) To promote and protect an attractive street level pedestrian environment with
continuous street frontage activities in retail areas.
http://www.dallascityattorney.com/51P/A ... rt%20I.pdf

We need to fight this.

R1070 wrote:We need to fight this.

This is horrible..i hope we see a Sam's Club deux.

Well ya'll better take a temperature of the room not everyone in the West Village may agree. Some may want a reliable gas station with beer and Wine sales, good bathrooms and what some may equate as a decent quick grocery. The question is will they tear down the restaurant before getting approval for the gas station. Tearing down is a big cost unless you feel confident you are getting your way. Otherwise the empty restaurant I am sure would rent s out again if QT weren't to get its way.

Central Market can provide the alcohol and food needs of the area. QT is not needed.

R1070 wrote:Central Market can provide the alcohol and food needs of the area. QT is not needed.

Has there been a Central Market opening I am not aware of, or are you suggesting the CM 4 miles away on Lovers?

Cabrio330 wrote:

R1070 wrote:Central Market can provide the alcohol and food needs of the area. QT is not needed.

Has there been a Central Market opening I am not aware of, or are you suggesting the CM 4 miles away on Lovers?

I believe it's the unbuilt CM going in where Alberton's used to be. However, it is delayed and buildout would take some time so probably 2-3 years away from completion.

Typically, the sale (or ground lease) would be contingent on zoning approval. I don’t imagine they will tear down anything until they have approval in hand.

It's interesting how big this site will be if QT has the restaurant plot too. Plus, it'll have both Lemmon Espressoways as entrances probably. This place will likely do rather well for myriad reasons. It's not remotely an exciting urban infill or final-use development for sure - obviously. The existing power lines will now likely remain on this stretch for a very long time as well. I wonder if there'll be EV charging. . . Do these QT places remain open/staffed inside for 24 hours?

CTroyMathis wrote:It's interesting how big this site will be if QT has the restaurant plot too. Plus, it'll have both Lemmon Espressoways as entrances probably. This place will likely do rather well for myriad reasons. It's not remotely an exciting urban infill or final-use development for sure - obviously. The existing power lines will now likely remain on this stretch for a very long time as well. I wonder if there'll be EV charging. . . Do these QT places remain open/staffed inside for 24 hours?

Yes, QT's quite the operation. They are also a SAFE PLACE for at rick youth.

Safe Place is a national nonprofit organization that provides safety for troubled or threatened youth. Since 1991, QuikTrip has been a designated Safe Place, where runaways and at-risk youth can come in off the street, receive food and drink, and wait for a volunteer from a Safe Place agency partner to connect them with professional help or a place to stay until their situation is resolved. In addition to our stores being Safe Place sites, QuikTrip provides grants to the local Safe Place agencies.

https://www.quiktrip.com/About/Community#:~:text=Since%201991%2C%20QuikTrip%20has%20been,until%20their%20situation%20is%20resolved.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:

CTroyMathis wrote:It's interesting how big this site will be if QT has the restaurant plot too. Plus, it'll have both Lemmon Espressoways as entrances probably. This place will likely do rather well for myriad reasons. It's not remotely an exciting urban infill or final-use development for sure - obviously. The existing power lines will now likely remain on this stretch for a very long time as well. I wonder if there'll be EV charging. . . Do these QT places remain open/staffed inside for 24 hours?

Yes, QT's quite the operation. They are also a SAFE PLACE for at rick youth.

Safe Place is a national nonprofit organization that provides safety for troubled or threatened youth. Since 1991, QuikTrip has been a designated Safe Place, where runaways and at-risk youth can come in off the street, receive food and drink, and wait for a volunteer from a Safe Place agency partner to connect them with professional help or a place to stay until their situation is resolved. In addition to our stores being Safe Place sites, QuikTrip provides grants to the local Safe Place agencies.

https://www.quiktrip.com/About/Community#:~:text=Since%201991%2C%20QuikTrip%20has%20been,until%20their%20situation%20is%20resolved.

I just see QT here becoming a late night meet up stop for clubbers and tripod bikers and racers.

And if you think all QTs are "safe havens" go visit the the QT on regal row my guy. Then we'll talk.