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Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

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Ace
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Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 11:21

I stepped on a thread in order to bring up this issue and didn't mean to. You know, figure development in the future is going to shrink towards the bubble made up by the Park Cities, Uptown, Turtle Creek, and Knox Park. The reason for this isn't the pandemic, but the more recent political agenda to defund police agencies. When discussing this issue with others, the conversations invariably lead back to downtown Dallas and the assassination of five police officers that happened there.

I see Plano and Las Colinas benefitting because of this perception.

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 01 Oct 2020 11:44

Plano and Las Colinas have had that advantage for years and Downtown is still a small player and will be until more ancillary development happens around the CBD. The CBD needs all the boats around it to be floating not just Uptown. The CBD is on the barely breathing edge of office investment in DFW. The problem is we see tall buildings and we think that must be where big business happens. The truth is the CBD has been last on the list for decades and current improvements that have made a good impact have not moved the needle that much at all. Frisco, Las Colinas, Plano etc are still the top ten in places where companies want to locate. My overall point is the CBD while it has been better in many peoples minds it has not convinced most of corporate America its worth a gamble. We have turned tons of empty office space into residential yes, we have built acres of parking lots into urban parks yes, AT&T choose Downtown sort of, yes, some 80's office buildings have be reinvested in but personally I don't think the BLM defund the police have done that much damage that the 80's already did to Downtown. I think ultimately depending on how the election ends and if the economy starts to truly return will be the real tell. Meanwhile we will continue to build parks incentivize residential encourage more hotels, retail etc.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 01 Oct 2020 11:48

For that matter I would worry if Uptown is the one that starts to see people leaving and I mean office space not a few rich socialites leaving their condos at the Ritz as a indicator of a larger problem. If uptown sees serious dips in office occupancy and lack of new interest then we have a big problem because Uptown has been the seed for continued encouraging growth in the urban areas like Oak Lawn, Turtle Creek, Knox Henderson, West Dallas, CBD, Deep Ellum and the Design District.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Ace
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 12:00

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Plano and Las Colinas have had that advantage for years and Downtown is still a small player and will be until more ancillary development happens around the CBD. The CBD needs all the boats around it to be floating not just Uptown. The CBD is on the barely breathing edge of office investment in DFW. The problem is we see tall buildings and we think that must be where big business happens. The truth is the CBD has been last on the list for decades and current improvements that have made a good impact have not moved the needle that much at all. Frisco, Las Colinas, Plano etc are still the top ten in places where companies want to locate. My overall point is the CBD while it has been better in many peoples minds it has not convinced most of corporate America its worth a gamble. We have turned tons of empty office space into residential yes, we have built acres of parking lots into urban parks yes, AT&T choose Downtown sort of, yes, some 80's office buildings have be reinvested in but personally I don't think the BLM defund the police have done that much damage that the 80's already did to Downtown. I think ultimately depending on how the election ends and if the economy starts to truly return will be the real tell. Meanwhile we will continue to build parks incentivize residential encourage more hotels, retail etc.


I agree on these points. What worries me is the focus. People need to repriorize regarding what is the true disaster. The takeover of the local creativity of many by a few geniuses located far away in the District of Columbia is the greatest disaster in my opinion. Next to tyranny, I consider the disruption in the food supply causing many to starve globally and many to suffer hunger in the United States a greater concern.

Historically, soldiers first had to march into deadly viruses in order to fight tyranny. More soldiers on both sides of the Civil War died from diseases than from fighting in battles.

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Ace
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 12:23

cowboyeagle05 wrote:For that matter I would worry if Uptown is the one that starts to see people leaving and I mean office space not a few rich socialites leaving their condos at the Ritz as a indicator of a larger problem. If uptown sees serious dips in office occupancy and lack of new interest then we have a big problem because Uptown has been the seed for continued encouraging growth in the urban areas like Oak Lawn, Turtle Creek, Knox Henderson, West Dallas, CBD, Deep Ellum and the Design District.




Yes. Along with the Park Cities which have historically been referred to as "the bubble" because of how that area functioned immune from downturns, I also include the area of Uptown in and around The Crescent. I also include Knox Street and not Henderson.

The best time to buy property around The Crescent and build on it is during a downturn.

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 01 Oct 2020 12:34

^True if the Park Cities sees any faltering then we know the ladder has been pulled out from under us.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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TNWE
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby TNWE » 01 Oct 2020 14:51

I agree that there's been damage to the standing or "reputation" of Central Dallas, but the fires were set well before COVID or BLM. At the start of this decade, there were some green shoots of progress as more residential and hotel development came to the Downtown core, and things like KWP and the Perot museum created new draws on the edge of the CBD/Freeway loop that allowed some of the energy and activity from Uptown and Victory Park to bleed over and spur more development. The transit option was always there, but for many people, the availability of relatively cheap parking ($5-10/day, not the $60-80-100+ you see in NYC/Chicago/SF) was also an important factor in drawing people in. I also credit the efforts of DPD and DDI's Safety Patrol and Clean Team for making Downtown welcoming to people from the 'Burbs as well- I really can't emphasize how big a role that played in changing perceptions and convincing people that they should spend their time and money in Downtown.

However, in the second half of the decade, some Urbanist activists came on to the scene, backed with Wick Allison's money and a more hostile "Dallas vs the Burbs" view that's reminiscent of our current President's obsession with zero-sum games. For them, it's not enough that Central Dallas gets new development/jobs/residents unless it comes at the expense of the suburbs. They insisted D2 *HAD* to be a subway, and that the higher cost meant the Sliver Line shouldn't move ahead. They insisted that the mere existence of I-345 was stifling growth, but ignored ACRES of vacant or underutilized land inside the freeway loop. These people were never going to be satisfied with just getting everything they wanted for Downtown - they had to get their pound of flesh from "The 'Burbs" too.

But a lot of that was just talk, and the last round of City elections seemed to be a strong rebuke of that crowd, so I wasn't that worried. However, when I saw a certain notable Urban Activist tweeting his support for rioters and defunding the police, literally while they were smashing up stores downtown, I knew Central Dallas was finished for a generation. Anyone with the means has or will move out to the burbs, where their taxes pay to ensure 3-4 officers in shiny new Tahoes are just a 911 call away (as opposed to Dallas, where you might get a response in 15 minutes if you're lucky). If the supposed "supporters" of urban communities are too afraid of getting "canceled" by some sociology grads to admit that a strong and responsive police force as an absolute necessity for their Urbanist vision, they can own the mess Dallas will become

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 15:36

TNWE wrote:I agree that there's been damage to the standing or "reputation" of Central Dallas, but the fires were set well before COVID or BLM. At the start of this decade, there were some green shoots of progress as more residential and hotel development came to the Downtown core, and things like KWP and the Perot museum created new draws on the edge of the CBD/Freeway loop that allowed some of the energy and activity from Uptown and Victory Park to bleed over and spur more development. The transit option was always there, but for many people, the availability of relatively cheap parking ($5-10/day, not the $60-80-100+ you see in NYC/Chicago/SF) was also an important factor in drawing people in. I also credit the efforts of DPD and DDI's Safety Patrol and Clean Team for making Downtown welcoming to people from the 'Burbs as well- I really can't emphasize how big a role that played in changing perceptions and convincing people that they should spend their time and money in Downtown.

However, in the second half of the decade, some Urbanist activists came on to the scene, backed with Wick Allison's money and a more hostile "Dallas vs the Burbs" view that's reminiscent of our current President's obsession with zero-sum games. For them, it's not enough that Central Dallas gets new development/jobs/residents unless it comes at the expense of the suburbs. They insisted D2 *HAD* to be a subway, and that the higher cost meant the Sliver Line shouldn't move ahead. They insisted that the mere existence of I-345 was stifling growth, but ignored ACRES of vacant or underutilized land inside the freeway loop. These people were never going to be satisfied with just getting everything they wanted for Downtown - they had to get their pound of flesh from "The 'Burbs" too.

But a lot of that was just talk, and the last round of City elections seemed to be a strong rebuke of that crowd, so I wasn't that worried. However, when I saw a certain notable Urban Activist tweeting his support for rioters and defunding the police, literally while they were smashing up stores downtown, I knew Central Dallas was finished for a generation. Anyone with the means has or will move out to the burbs, where their taxes pay to ensure 3-4 officers in shiny new Tahoes are just a 911 call away (as opposed to Dallas, where you might get a response in 15 minutes if you're lucky). If the supposed "supporters" of urban communities are too afraid of getting "canceled" by some sociology grads to admit that a strong and responsive police force as an absolute necessity for their Urbanist vision, they can own the mess Dallas will become


I agree. Urbanites versus suburbanites goes beyond absurd.

I think the real culprit are the schools. The community colleges and universities are the ones needing defunding and not the police. Afterall, they are the ones teaching these officers that are required to complete 60 hours to be considered for employment. Defunding the police is going to have the illogical effect of raising the cost to keep officers.

Television is the one causing the most division and confusion though. Through their narrow lense, they have everyone believing that all white people are racist, all black people are communist, and all Hispanics are Catholic.

This all amounts to a lot of deep doo doo.

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby tamtagon » 01 Oct 2020 15:43

Ace wrote:The reason for this isn't the pandemic, but the more recent political agenda to defund police agencies. When discussing this issue with others, the conversations invariably lead back to downtown Dallas and the assassination of five police officers that happened there.


In my opinion, this POV is still very new and so far not as morally regressive, but it's similar to those in the early years of the civil rights movement claiming that equal rights for Negros would ruin our society. Texas had miscegenation laws until the Supreme Court said NO in the late 1960s - less than three generations ago - so it's easy to understand how the race based fears persist.

Many people will cancel excursions to downtown Dallas because they are afraid they will get hurt if there's Black Lives Matter and/or Defund the police activity. These are the people who should stay home and watch TV while the more worldly thinkers try to improve our culture.

The intentional ignorance in response to the phrase defund the police is disappointing, to say the least. Since Nixon began mobilizing well bred Christian Americans to engage a war on drugs, our municipal police forces have been militarized and tasked with responsibilities ungermane to the protect and serve mandate. Defund the police [simply] calls for removing tasks from the police force and putting them under the direction of someone other than the chief of police.

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby vman » 01 Oct 2020 16:00

As someone who left downtown about six years ago for the suburbs (the only reason being housing costs), I'm really puzzled to what you guys are talking about. I still visit downtown Dallas, Deep Ellum, Victory Park (worked there till about a year ago) Farmers Market etc. on a regular basis. I was just in Deep Ellum Saturday afternoon and I haven't seen any protest by BLM or any other group. I'm not afraid or intimated to go downtown and have heard no one I know say that they were. Granted I don't live there or work in the area anymore, but judging by Saturday afternoon, even in this pandemic, lots of people still enjoy downtown Dallas.

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby exelone31 » 01 Oct 2020 16:23

If the protests were violent and out of control downtown, we'd be hearing and seeing about it somewhere. The truth is, it is not happening.

On this thread alone, I have seen society's ills blamed on:
- the concept of "defunding the police"
- the killing of 5 Dallas police officers by a lone lunatic during a Black Lives Matter protest in 2016
- "geniuses" in Washington DC (not sure who that refers to)
- disruption to the global food supply
- SCHOOLS!
- television

Totally agree with tamtagon. Blaming civil rights movements on completely-unrelated causes is not something invented in this latest iteration of strife. People were accusing MLK and the like of being covert actors for the Communists.

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Ace
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 16:27

tamtagon wrote:
Ace wrote:The reason for this isn't the pandemic, but the more recent political agenda to defund police agencies. When discussing this issue with others, the conversations invariably lead back to downtown Dallas and the assassination of five police officers that happened there.


In my opinion, this POV is still very new and so far not as morally regressive, but it's similar to those in the early years of the civil rights movement claiming that equal rights for Negros would ruin our society. Texas had miscegenation laws until the Supreme Court said NO in the late 1960s - less than three generations ago - so it's easy to understand how the race based fears persist.

Many people will cancel excursions to downtown Dallas because they are afraid they will get hurt if there's Black Lives Matter and/or Defund the police activity. These are the people who should stay home and watch TV while the more worldly thinkers try to improve our culture.

The intentional ignorance in response to the phrase defund the police is disappointing, to say the least. Since Nixon began mobilizing well bred Christian Americans to engage a war on drugs, our municipal police forces have been militarized and tasked with responsibilities ungermane to the protect and serve mandate. Defund the police [simply] calls for removing tasks from the police force and putting them under the direction of someone other than the chief of police.


It doesn't take long for one to head south into the land of prejudice from Manhatten Island. All one has to do is cross over a bridge into Queens to arrive at Archie Bunker's place. In other words, all directions head south from the polar north that is Manhatten Island. Apparently, Minneanapolis in the heartland appears to be the new deep south. Over the last twenty years, race riots happened in Cincinnati and Los Angeles.

As prejudice is being taught to the rest of us by a lone literature professor living on Fifth Avenue, schools shouldn't teach culture as those are God given things. For example, the nation of France was defeated utterly during World War 2. Along with most of the rest of the world, it was a matter of mercy that they were allowed to keep their unique culture. In my opinion, the creed that values the customer holding him and her as the boss is the real solution to these social problems. It allows the people a way to work out their problems.

Indeed, a black family deciding to spend their hard earned money on a quality product sold by a white family is going to be valued.

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Ace
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 16:35

exelone31 wrote:If the protests were violent and out of control downtown, we'd be hearing and seeing about it somewhere. The truth is, it is not happening.

On this thread alone, I have seen society's ills blamed on:
- the concept of "defunding the police"
- the killing of 5 Dallas police officers by a lone lunatic during a Black Lives Matter protest in 2016
- "geniuses" in Washington DC (not sure who that refers to)
- disruption to the global food supply
- SCHOOLS!
- television

Totally agree with tamtagon. Blaming civil rights movements on completely-unrelated causes is not something invented in this latest iteration of strife. People were accusing MLK and the like of being covert actors for the Communists.


Okay, here is my point about geniuses. If President Trump and let's say the eighty geniuses he has around him truly was the best way for us to solve a problem, then, as China has four times our population, they should have at least four Trumps and 320 geniuses on hand. We can't compete against that. But we aren't a great nation because of a few geniuses, but because of the creativity of our people when we are left free to express themselves.

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Ace
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 16:42

vman wrote:As someone who left downtown about six years ago for the suburbs (the only reason being housing costs), I'm really puzzled to what you guys are talking about. I still visit downtown Dallas, Deep Ellum, Victory Park (worked there till about a year ago) Farmers Market etc. on a regular basis. I was just in Deep Ellum Saturday afternoon and I haven't seen any protest by BLM or any other group. I'm not afraid or intimated to go downtown and have heard no one I know say that they were. Granted I don't live there or work in the area anymore, but judging by Saturday afternoon, even in this pandemic, lots of people still enjoy downtown Dallas.


I am talking perception here. In discussions I listen to, the talk invariably refers to downtown Dallas and the assassination of five police officers. That tragedy is considered the advent kicking off today's social unrest.

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tamtagon
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby tamtagon » 01 Oct 2020 16:55

^shouldnt you be blaming the NRA propoganda for thoses murders?

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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby Ace » 01 Oct 2020 17:14

exelone31 wrote:Totally agree with tamtagon. Blaming civil rights movements on completely-unrelated causes is not something invented in this latest iteration of strife. People were accusing MLK and the like of being covert actors for the Communists.


First off, I don't think you appreciate the difference between the original American Movement - this transitionist period rising up of, by, and for the people - and the many other political agendas concocted ever since of officials, by officials, and for officials and just called 'movements.'

Allow me to cut to the chase. Pictures don't lie. Even pictures taken way back during those olden black and white days show the strongest and healthiest of rioters just as the fatter more obese protestors of today also prove. The United States has always had the best fed among all the world's put upons!

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tamtagon
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Re: Damage Done Pertaining to Central Dallas

Postby tamtagon » 01 Oct 2020 17:20

This forum is not the appropriate site for this topic. Thread closed.


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