Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Man, that 609 Harwood location has been in some phase of build-out/renovation for what, 2-3 years? Maybe something will happen this time? Thanks for all the info, mdg.

https://whois.domaintools.com/litkitchendallas.com
If I am reading the spelling of the website on the sign right, the website was deleted and available. That chef does mention the name of the place on his LinkedIn.

I count 12-14 hotels in and around EMC now. When travel resumes and those hotels fill, we should see a healthy amount of retail and restaurant traffic from hotel guests exploring the neighborhood.

Noticed this next to the taco place at the Mosaic.

I totally forgot about that. I had noticed a Coming Fall 2020 (or something like that) sign once when I was walking over to Cafe Momentum. I believe there is also an interior access point for Mosaic residents. Looks pretty good.

Did this used to be the iced tea store?

@Tnexster - yes, if I remember correctly.

Exploring the west side of downtown: Chimalma Taco Bar (I think this used to be a Latin Deli); not sure how much longer the renovations at Founder's Plaza will be, but it's definitely taking shape. Lastly, some developments I'd never heard of Rokwood Lounge, Taco City, Chambers at 514 Jackson.

The company I work for owns the La Quinta on Houston and the Chambers on Jackson. The chambers was meeting space mostly used by attorneys at the Federal Court and we have a parking garage there for the LQ. At some point it will be torn down and a hipster branded hotel will go there on top of a new parking garage. Plans are tentative due to the Pandemic and the downtown in hospitality occupancy so I can't say more. I was just inside that building last week and I can tell you it's very creepy!

Thanks for the info doubdfw67!

Hawthorn in the ATT Disc Distr looks like it's about ready to open:

A major vegan restaurant with L.A. roots is coming to Dallas. Called Belse Plant Cuisine, it'll be located downtown at 1910 Pacific Ave. #1400, next door to the Majestic Theatre, with an opening set for the first week of February

https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/rest ... pine-moby/

That's fantastic! The bones of every downtown is the variety of experiences and opportunities.

Dallas is really opening up if a vegan restaurant opens there.

Kind of weird for them to say it's next to the Majestic Theatre, since it is on the back side of that building. Looks like a solid location right across the street from Pacific Plaza though!

A feel-good story about a downtown restaurant.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 2409b6efbf

Redblock wrote:A feel-good story about a downtown restaurant.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 2409b6efbf

It is sad that it took something like this to actually get the downtown folks to patronize a business. I’ve seen comments from folks saying they walked by this place for years and had never eaten there. Downtown has so far to go - it seems to always be on the edge of greatness, or despair, depending on the day of the week.

Jbarn wrote:

Redblock wrote:A feel-good story about a downtown restaurant.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 2409b6efbf

It is sad that it took something like this to actually get the downtown folks to patronize a business. I’ve seen comments from folks saying they walked by this place for years and had never eaten there. Downtown has so far to go - it seems to always be on the edge of greatness, or despair, depending on the day of the week.

the problem with Sushi-ya is that it's catered it's business towards office the crowds for years. Same with Miguel's and Enchiladas right next door. Of course residents won't patronize a business that doesn't cater to them.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:

Jbarn wrote:

Redblock wrote:A feel-good story about a downtown restaurant.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/local ... 2409b6efbf

It is sad that it took something like this to actually get the downtown folks to patronize a business. I’ve seen comments from folks saying they walked by this place for years and had never eaten there. Downtown has so far to go - it seems to always be on the edge of greatness, or despair, depending on the day of the week.

the problem with Sushi-ya is that it's catered it's business towards office the crowds for years. Same with Miguel's and Enchiladas right next door. Of course residents won't patronize a business that doesn't cater to them.

Very well said. I decided a while ago to mainly support restaurants that are open late / weekends. Sushiya is open 3.5 hours between Saturday and Sunday according to Google. For what it's worth, I'll stop by once a month or so -- the food is good, prices are right, and the people are great. The problem is that it suffers the same issues as neighboring Enchilada's. Limited hours and all the charm of a suburbs dive-sushi bar. It's got The Thompson / Monarch/Kessaku and Drakestone on either side. This stretch of downtown has quickly moved upmarket in the past 3 years and Sushiya is using the same strategy that worked 20 years ago.

The fact there isn't much appetite for a dive sushi bar isn't an indictment of downtown at all, in fact, it shows how much the bar has been raised.

You either change with the times or you get left behind.

"Downtown has so far to go - it seems to always be on the edge of greatness, or despair, depending on the day of the week."

Exactly. You never know which downtown you're going to get. I was out there this past Sunday afternoon and it felt like a real city. Went running last night, and it was a ghost town.

mdg109 wrote:"Downtown has so far to go - it seems to always be on the edge of greatness, or despair, depending on the day of the week."

Exactly. You never know which downtown you're going to get. I was out there this past Sunday afternoon and it felt like a real city. Went running last night, and it was a ghost town.

This just points to the lack of critical mass. There's only about 12K residents in the CBD. They say You start street life at about 20K.
So yeah unless it's a weekend or a special event going on during the week you're not going to see that steet life. Especially during a mid week run.

Why I optimistically take hope in the steady increase in residential added and being added to the CBD (+ some hotel).

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:

mdg109 wrote:"Downtown has so far to go - it seems to always be on the edge of greatness, or despair, depending on the day of the week."

Exactly. You never know which downtown you're going to get. I was out there this past Sunday afternoon and it felt like a real city. Went running last night, and it was a ghost town.

This just points to the lack of critical mass. There's only about 12K residents in the CBD. They say You start street life at about 20K.
So yeah unless it's a weekend or a special event going on during the week you're not going to see that steet life. Especially during a mid week run.

So in other words, downtown Dallas is never going to have street life, as it will take decades to get to 20k. All the old build buildings that could be repurposed as housing have been, and there are not many new builds on the horizon. We would need 30+ new mid-rise or high-rise residential buildings at 200+ units each to get to 20k. Kind of discouraging.

Jbarn wrote:So in other words, downtown Dallas is never going to have street life, as it will take decades to get to 20k. All the old build buildings that could be repurposed as housing have been, and there are not many new builds on the horizon. We would need 30+ new mid-rise or high-rise residential buildings at 200+ units each to get to 20k. Kind of discouraging.

I have to ask if you've actually been Downtown, Jbarn?

There absolutely is street life, oh and let's not forget -- this is DURING a global pandemic. If we stay on the same pace that it took to get to 10k residents then we'll be at 20k in a couple years. Those of us that actually live downtown can tell you how busy the Discovery District gets -- even on a random week night during a global pandemic.

I'd love to see how much more "street life" there is in Fort Worth or downtown Plano on a random week night.

Sheesh!

Where did the magic 20k figure come from, anyway? Is it specific to Dallas, or is it just a general rule of thumb for any urban area?

We also have to keep in mind that so many people live and work adjacent to the CBD too and that could potentially add to the street life.

I've worked downtown for the past few years, and the daily office foot traffic along Ross Ave is encouraging. Even in the past few months.

New / upcoming downtown residential projects: AMLI Fountain Place, Hall Arts, Atelier, Thompson, 300 Pearl, The Galbraith (Dallas High School). Like the momentum.

Throw in the 4 new parks, and I don’t see it taking 3-5 years for real street life 7 days a week.

dalbert wrote:I've worked downtown for the past few years, and the daily office foot traffic along Ross Ave is encouraging. Even in the past few months.

New / upcoming downtown residential projects: AMLI Fountain Place, Hall Arts, Atelier, Thompson, 300 Pearl, The Galbraith (Dallas High School). Like the momentum.

Throw in the 4 new parks, and I don’t see it taking 3-5 years for real street life 7 days a week.

There's actually quite more residential projects in the works than just those... Don't forget the DMNs Residential by the statler Developers. It's underway.

Also there's more,not sure how many, residential underway in the Farmers Market area. A lot of those units in the Farmers Market are brand new, so those occupancy number will increase over time.

With the aforementioned new projects listed above. You can easily add 2-3K people.

20K doesn't seem do far off to me.

Is the land downtown priced so that only something like 300 Pearl or the Atelier can get built? Or can someone still do 5 story stick wraps?

I would be happy to see the vacant surface lots turned into mid-rise residential, That would bring in the residents. That’s what happened in State Thomas, and it led to Uptown.

I’d love to see that too.

willyk wrote:Is the land downtown priced so that only something like 300 Pearl or the Atelier can get built? Or can someone still do 5 story stick wraps?

I would be happy to see the vacant surface lots turned into mid-rise residential, That would bring in the residents. That’s what happened in State Thomas, and it led to Uptown.

I don't get whats taking so long though? Is it not enough demand? There should be at least a minimum of 5-6,000 units u/c downtown right now. Austin seems to be getting a ton of residential downtown and even houston to an extent, but why does it seem like aggressive residential downtown is kind of slow? Even during the boom years?

Warrior2020 wrote:

willyk wrote:Is the land downtown priced so that only something like 300 Pearl or the Atelier can get built? Or can someone still do 5 story stick wraps?

I would be happy to see the vacant surface lots turned into mid-rise residential, That would bring in the residents. That’s what happened in State Thomas, and it led to Uptown.

I don't get whats taking so long though? Is it not enough demand? There should be at least a minimum of 5-6,000 units u/c downtown right now. Austin seems to be getting a ton of residential downtown and even houston to an extent, but why does it seem like aggressive residential downtown is kind of slow? Even during the boom years?

5 story wraps are already being done in the Farmers Market. You have to look at what Developers have that land. Lots of them don't have residential in their plans. So those lots stay as is. Demand for housing is certainly there.

Aren't we generally keeping pace with Houston/Austin, but most of our construction is happening in Uptown, Victory Park, Deep Ellum, etc..

DPatel304 wrote:Aren't we generally keeping pace with Houston/Austin, but most of our construction is happening in Uptown, Victory Park, Deep Ellum, etc..

Yes, but I was talking about downtown proper. Even VP is just about built out/if not built out for residential and what other residential is happening now in Deep ellum?

To be honest, I don't know the numbers behind what's under construction in Downtown and the other urban areas, nor do I know how that compares to Houston/Austin. It does just seem like our demand is in Downtown adjacent areas compared to Houston/Austin where the demand is more in downtown proper.

I'm really hoping to see that change soon though. I'm hoping as these adjacent neighbors see more development, it'll be more desirable to live Downtown too and have easy access to all of them.

DPatel304 wrote:To be honest, I don't know the numbers behind what's under construction in Downtown and the other urban areas, nor do I know how that compares to Houston/Austin. It does just seem like our demand is in Downtown adjacent areas compared to Houston/Austin where the demand is more in downtown proper.

I'm really hoping to see that change soon though. I'm hoping as these adjacent neighbors see more development, it'll be more desirable to live Downtown too and have easy access to all of them.

Same. Im tired of seeing downtown dallas get bashed for having a mediocre downtown when the city has so much potential given that its in the top 10 largest cities. The hoods surrounding downtown have really came along way, I just want downtown to outdo every neighborhood in the city and be the place everyone wants to hang out and lots want to live. It definitely can happen soon.

For comparison, per the 2020 Houston Downtown Organization report. There's 10.4K residents in their core.

So slightly less than Dallas.


https://www.downtownhouston.org/media/u ... _FINAL.pdf

The Downtown Austin alliance state of Downtown 2021 shows that their residential population is 16K

https://downtownaustin.com/economic-dev ... port-2021/

Is there an organization that tracks the number of residents in the Dallas core/loop? I would love to follow that data as it changes.

THRILLHO wrote:Is there an organization that tracks the number of residents in the Dallas core/loop? I would love to follow that data as it changes.

Yes, Downtown Dallas inc.
https://downtowndallas.com/

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:For comparison, per the 2020 Houston Downtown Organization report. There's 10.4K residents in their core.

So slightly less than Dallas.


https://www.downtownhouston.org/media/u ... _FINAL.pdf

The Downtown Austin alliance state of Downtown 2021 shows that their residential population is 16K

https://downtownaustin.com/economic-dev ... port-2021/

I remember when houston had like 6k residents just a few years ago when Dallas was still at 10k. Now Houston is around 10k and should be around 12k soon.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:

THRILLHO wrote:Is there an organization that tracks the number of residents in the Dallas core/loop? I would love to follow that data as it changes.

Yes, Downtown Dallas inc.
https://downtowndallas.com/

More specifically, here is a link to their latest annual report, which includes their residential estimate (12,000).

https://downtowndallas.com/wp-content/u ... -FINAL.pdf

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:

Warrior2020 wrote:

willyk wrote:Is the land downtown priced so that only something like 300 Pearl or the Atelier can get built? Or can someone still do 5 story stick wraps?

I would be happy to see the vacant surface lots turned into mid-rise residential, That would bring in the residents. That’s what happened in State Thomas, and it led to Uptown.

I don't get whats taking so long though? Is it not enough demand? There should be at least a minimum of 5-6,000 units u/c downtown right now. Austin seems to be getting a ton of residential downtown and even houston to an extent, but why does it seem like aggressive residential downtown is kind of slow? Even during the boom years?

5 story wraps are already being done in the Farmers Market. You have to look at what Developers have that land. Lots of them don't have residential in their plans. So those lots stay as is. Demand for housing is certainly there.

This is my fear, that every developer or owner with land downtown thinks he is holding a site for a 50 story building. So until we need a bunch more 50 story buildings downtown, nothing will get built.

Uptown and Ross Ave sites can command that kind of pricing, but the rest of the downtown developers and owners need to be a bit more practical about what can realistically happen there.

For the foreseeable future, i.e. the next five years, most of those surface lots will only support mid-rise residential.

I took my family to the Farmer's Market later afternoon and the Discovery District in the evening on Saturday and (unsurprisingly) both areas were teeming with people. We popped into the Statler later in the night and the hotel as a whole seemed to be busy as did the rooftop and speakeasy, but Scout was not nearly as busy as the rest of the hotel. I'm sure if you live near there, it seems like a wonderful neighborhood bar to hang out in that never gets too crazy, it just felt a little out of place in the Statler and it felt like all that space could be put to better use? Perhaps I was just there on an off time, and maybe it gets busier at other times of day.

It seems like the Discovery District is definitely the place to be in Downtown, but it also seems like there are a lot of people who still haven't heard of it or who haven't ventured out that way yet, so I can only see the area getting more and more busy as time goes on.

DPatel304 wrote:I took my family to the Farmer's Market later afternoon and the Discovery District in the evening on Saturday and (unsurprisingly) both areas were teeming with people. We popped into the Statler later in the night and the hotel as a whole seemed to be busy as did the rooftop and speakeasy, but Scout was not nearly as busy as the rest of the hotel. I'm sure if you live near there, it seems like a wonderful neighborhood bar to hang out in that never gets too crazy, it just felt a little out of place in the Statler and it felt like all that space could be put to better use? Perhaps I was just there on an off time, and maybe it gets busier at other times of day.

It seems like the Discovery District is definitely the place to be in Downtown, but it also seems like there are a lot of people who still haven't heard of it or who haven't ventured out that way yet, so I can only see the area getting more and more busy as time goes on.

Definitely try out the CatBird. I think it's cooler than Bourbon and Banter at the statler (the speakeasy).
The joule is back too. So great bars be back. I think the Mitchell is back too.

Thanks for the heads up! I definitely want to check out the Drever sometime soon now that it's completed.

DPatel304 wrote:Thanks for the heads up! I definitely want to check out the Drever sometime soon now that it's completed.

Except, it's "The National".

Warrior2020 wrote:

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:For comparison, per the 2020 Houston Downtown Organization report. There's 10.4K residents in their core.

So slightly less than Dallas.


https://www.downtownhouston.org/media/u ... _FINAL.pdf

The Downtown Austin alliance state of Downtown 2021 shows that their residential population is 16K

https://downtownaustin.com/economic-dev ... port-2021/

I remember when Houston had like 6k residents just a few years ago when Dallas was still at 10k. Now Houston is around 10k and should be around 12k soon.

Are these populations linked to an actual size or surface area in square miles?
What does Houston or Austin consider their 'Downtown' compared to Dallas?
Also is there a measure of the immediate population outside the core within 1 mile or 3 miles comparing the three downtowns?
Dallas has the hard border with the highways but the central loop seems a lot smaller than the other two.

Sorry Double post.

itsjrd1964 wrote:

DPatel304 wrote:Thanks for the heads up! I definitely want to check out the Drever sometime soon now that it's completed.

Except, it's "The National".

Touche

Downtown Dallas population will hit 20K in 5-7 years and not decades. That's non-sense!

Urbancowboy wrote:Downtown Dallas population will hit 20K in 5-7 years and not decades. That's non-sense!

Assuming we're at 12,000 now, that would require the addition of something like 900-1200 residential units per year.

Tucy wrote:

Urbancowboy wrote:Downtown Dallas population will hit 20K in 5-7 years and not decades. That's non-sense!

Assuming we're at 12,000 now, that would require the addition of something like 900-1200 residential units per year.

There's a lot already u/c and or just opened..it's less than that.

Exactly! The D/FW real estate market is very hot right now. We will have a hustling and energetic downtown sooner than most people think. It's already come a long way in 5 years. The next 5-7 years is going to make downtown brimming with activity.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:

Tucy wrote:

Urbancowboy wrote:Downtown Dallas population will hit 20K in 5-7 years and not decades. That's non-sense!

Assuming we're at 12,000 now, that would require the addition of something like 900-1200 residential units per year.

There's a lot already u/c and or just opened..it's less than that.

Yes, and as they are completed they will count towards the 900-1200 units per year that would be needed to reach 20,000 in 5-7 years.

We may have added enough this year to make good progress towards this 20,000 goal. What is in the pipeline for next year?