Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Tucy wrote:Journalists... SMH

Here are some details regarding what the City is planning to give to Hunt and Goldman Sachs:

(1) Hunt: real property tax abatement exempting 50% of the taxes on added value to the net new tangible real property for 10 years.
(2) G-S: business personal property tax abatement exempting 50% of the taxes on the added value to the net new tangible personal property for 5 years.
(3) G-S: $4,000,000 job grant
(4) G-S: Another $375,000

These are all with respect to only the building to be built for G-S. Hunt is actually required to replate the property so that the G-S building is a separate tax parcel.

Hunt is required to complete the core and shell of the G-S building by December 31, 2027 with a "minimum real property investment of $390 Million.

In order to get the personal property tax abatement, G-S is required to make a minimum capital investment of $90 Million by December 31, 2028 (inclusive of both leasehold improvements and furniture, fixtures and equipment.

In exchange for the $4 Million job grant, G-S must "remain and/or create" a minimum of 5,000 jobs at the new building on or before December 31, 2028, with an average base salary of $90,000.A minimum of 35% of G-S's employees at the North End Office must be Dallas city residents. G-S must execute the lease for a minimum of 800,000 square feet on or before December 31, 2027 and the lease must be for at least 15 years. G-S must commence occupancy no later than December 31, 2028.

Note that, per the DMN, G-S already had "almost 4,000 employees in North Texas, including more than 1,000 in Trammel Crow Center, so they only need to add another 1,000 to their North Texas ranks to meet the requirement, assuming, of course that they move their current employees to the North End (and make sure that 1,750 employees live in Dallas). The schedule for this project apparently lines up with the end of their lease at Trammel Crow so I'm pretty certain they at least plan to relocate those people. Also, the personal property tax abatement for G-S is not dependent on employment.

DFW wrote:From local NBC News:

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/two-b ... 96544/?amp

Chrisjo445 wrote:I really hope this comes to fruition. But first they must vote on this. We will find out tomorrow!

Tucy wrote:Yeah, there is zero chance the Dallas City Council will not approve this. It's a rare organization that is more eager to give away money than Dallas's City Council.

rickbansal wrote:It will irresponsible of them if they don't vote YES on this. Remember, Dallas is also a host site for the 2026 World Cup so they want/need as much big-brand corporate density as they can get in the downtown area.

New York-based financial giant Goldman Sachs wants to put 5,000 workers in a new office tower to be built just north of downtown Dallas.

Dallas’ city council will vote Wednesday on a plan to give Goldman Sachs and Dallas’ Hunt Realty more than $18 million in economic incentives to build the new office campus at 2323 North Field Street next to the Perot Museum. The Goldman Sachs office would be part of Hunt Realty’s 11-acre North End development located between Victory Park and Uptown.

Plans for the mixed-use project include offices, residential and hotel towers and retail space just north of Woodall Rodgers Freeway. The new buildings will be constructed around a 1.5-acre park. Goldman Sachs' more than 800,000-square-foot office would anchor the project.

The incentives being considered by the city are a combination of economic grants and tax abatements. The city council will vote on whether to give Goldman Sachs $4.375 million in grants and property and business tax abatements valued at $13.644 million. Goldman Sachs currently employs about 2,500 full-time permanent employees in Dallas, with most of them working in the Trammell Crow Center on Ross Avenue.

“Recently, Goldman Sachs approached the city regarding plans to expand its Dallas operations by creating a new urban campus environment offering an upgraded workplace experience,” according to the city council agenda. “Goldman Sachs anticipates they will retain, relocate and hire a total of 5,000 permanent, full-time jobs with an average annual base wage of at least $90,000.00 (not inclusive of annual bonuses) by December 31, 2028.” Goldman Sachs also considered Salt Lake City, Atlanta and South Florida for the office, according to the city’s economic development department.

North Texas is already one of Goldman Sach’s largest employment centers outside New York, second only to Salt Lake City. The new office would be completed “no later than December 31, 2027.” Along with the new jobs, the city is asking Goldman Sachs to “partner” with Paul Quinn College, the University of Texas at Dallas and Dallas College to create workforce programs for internships and apprenticeships. Goldman Sachs representatives have declined to comment on the planned Dallas office expansion. The proposed Goldman Sachs office would cost more than $480 million, according to the filings with the city. That would make it the most costly real estate project in central Dallas in decades. The financial firm also has hundreds of workers at an office in Richardson’s Telecom Corridor.

If approved by the city, Goldman Sachs’ incentive package would be one of the largest such offerings to lure new business to Dallas. In 2019, California-based transportation firm Uber received more than $9 million in city incentives to bring 3,000 jobs to a new building in Dallas’ Deep Ellum neighborhood. State, city and county officials approved nearly $36 million in economic incentives in all to bring Uber’s office to Dallas. But Uber drastically downsized the Dallas operation during the COVID-19 pandemic and forfeited the millions in support. Toyota North America received more than $8 million in incentives from Plano to relocate its North American headquarters from California. Toyota also received $40 million from the Texas Enterprise Fund for bringing 3,650 workers to the new headquarters in Plano.

trueicon wrote:Some unexpected drama happening live. Paul Ridley motioned to DENY the tax incentives. His reasons for the denial reflect a comprehensive ignorance of fundamental economics. Of course it would be great if we didn't need to approve these sorts of things for public corporations. The reality is that if you don't approve it, they go somewhere else. 5,000 jobs plus new related industry jobs hang in the balance.

I'm listening to how this ends, but regardless, I think Ridley just became a lame duck councilperson.

trueicon wrote:Update -- despite Ridley's ill-informed objections, the tax incentive package was approved.

Looking forward to this, and to voting for Ridley's challenger next election

trueicon wrote:Update -- despite Ridley's ill-informed objections, the tax incentive package was approved.

Tucy wrote:

trueicon wrote:Some unexpected drama happening live. Paul Ridley motioned to DENY the tax incentives. His reasons for the denial reflect a comprehensive ignorance of fundamental economics. Of course it would be great if we didn't need to approve these sorts of things for public corporations. The reality is that if you don't approve it, they go somewhere else. 5,000 jobs plus new related industry jobs hang in the balance.

I'm listening to how this ends, but regardless, I think Ridley just became a lame duck councilperson.

FWIW, most of the jobs are already here (apparently about 2500 in Trammell Crow and about 1500 elsewhere in North Texas). Unlikely they will leave if this is not approved. AND, they've been growing quickly in North Texas (and Dallas) without subsidy... are they really going to stop adding jobs in North Texas?

trueicon wrote:Update -- despite Ridley's ill-informed objections, the tax incentive package was approved.

Looking forward to this, and to voting for Ridley's challenger next election

Addison wrote:A completion date no later than December 31, 2027 means we might still have a long wait yet for this to get going.

Addison wrote:A completion date no later than December 31, 2027 means we might still have a long wait yet for this to get going.

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:

Addison wrote:A completion date no later than December 31, 2027 means we might still have a long wait yet for this to get going.

Do we think maybe that date is more about the entire development? Seems weird that there was a rush to get tenants to end their lease if there isn't something ready to start going soon.

rickbansal wrote:Fyi, I was talking with an executive from Goldman this past Saturday (at a social gathering) and he confirmed that Goldman will be consolidating their DFW workforce in a new building next to Perot Museum as well as adding thousands of additional jobs. He didn't believe Goldman would move their HQ to Dallas though.

trueicon wrote:Update -- despite Ridley's ill-informed objections, the tax incentive package was approved.

Looking forward to this, and to voting for Ridley's challenger next election

Chrisjo445 wrote:
Hahaha! Let's go! The council prevailed, thankfully. I also can't wait to vote against the jacka** when the time comes.

Now all that's left is to see how the timeline for this project shapes up, and if they will downscale the project. I really hope they don't. What are the chances that this will remain an 80+ story building?

Addison wrote:

rickbansal wrote:Fyi, I was talking with an executive from Goldman this past Saturday (at a social gathering) and he confirmed that Goldman will be consolidating their DFW workforce in a new building next to Perot Museum as well as adding thousands of additional jobs. He didn't believe Goldman would move their HQ to Dallas though.

A question for you...

Does your contact at GS have any information on the status of leases at their other offices they'll be vacating in DFW?

That would give us a clue for the construction timeline.

Chrisjo445 wrote:Hahaha! Let's go! The council prevailed, thankfully. I also can't wait to vote against the jacka** when the time comes.

Now all that's left is to see how the timeline for this project shapes up, and if they will downscale the project. I really hope they don't. What are the chances that this will remain an 80+ story building?

Steve Brown - Dallas Morning News wrote:New York-based financial giant Goldman Sachs will put 5,000 workers in an office campus to be built just north of downtown Dallas.

The City Council voted Wednesday to give Goldman Sachs and Dallas’ Hunt Realty more than $18 million in economic incentives to build the office project at 2323 North Field St. next to the Perot Museum.

The City Council overwhelmingly supported the incentives.

“This is exactly the kind of company I think we should be investing in,” said council member Cara Mendelsohn. “To me this is an investment that makes sense.”

Council member Tennell Atkins said that giving Goldman Sachs support will build for the city’s future. “We are not giving away the store,” Atkins said. “We are trying to sell Dallas.”

Still, council member Paul Ridley questioned offering the global financial firm millions in public funding.

“I do not see the need for public support for a wealthy public corporation that is highly capitalized and does not need this money to decide where they are going to locate their offices,” said Ridley, who ultimately voted for the proposal.

The Goldman Sachs campus would be part of Hunt Realty’s 11-acre North End development located between Victory Park and Uptown.

Plans for the mixed-use project include offices, residential and hotel towers and retail space just north of Woodall Rodgers Freeway. The new buildings will be constructed around a 1.5-acre park.

Goldman Sach’s more than 800,000-square-foot office will anchor the project.


The incentives okayed by the city are a combination of economic grants and tax abatements. The City Council agreed to give Goldman Sachs $4.375 million in grants and property and business tax abatements valued at $13.644 million.

Goldman Sachs currently employs about 2,500 full-time permanent employees in Dallas, with most of them working in the Trammell Crow Center on Ross Avenue.

“It’s 5,000 jobs — 2,500 retained here in the city and another 2,500 added,” said Robin Bentley, director of Dallas’ office of economic development.

Bentley said the city grant support works out to about $800 per employee, “which is less than we have offered on similar deals.”

The workers will have an average annual base wage of at least $90,000.

“The types of jobs we are looking at are the full spectrum of headquarters services,” Bentley said. “All of the Goldman Sachs divisions of business will be represented out of the Dallas office.”

Goldman Sachs also considered Salt Lake City, Atlanta and South Florida for the office, according to the city’s economic development department. North Texas is already Goldman Sachs’ largest employment outside of New York.

The new office would be completed “no later than December 31, 2027.”

Along with job creation, the city is asking Goldman Sachs to “partner” with Paul Quinn College, the University of Texas at Dallas and Dallas College to create workforce programs for internships and apprenticeships.

Council member Gay Donnell Willis said the city has to support projects like the new Goldman Sachs office.

“The notion of sitting back on our heels in a competitive world will make Dallas a loser,” she said. “The competition is so ready to step in and take projects away from us. Dallas is a winner.”

Goldman Sachs representatives have declined to comment on the planned Dallas office expansion.

The proposed Goldman Sachs office would cost more than $480 million, according to filings with the city. That would make it the most costly real estate project in central Dallas in decades.

The financial firm also has hundreds of workers at an office in Richardson’s Telecom Corridor.

Goldman Sachs’ incentive package is one of the largest Dallas has ever made.

In 2019, California-based transportation firm Uber received more than $9 million in city incentives to bring 3,000 jobs to a new building in Dallas’ Deep Ellum neighborhood.

State, city and county officials approved nearly $36 million in total economic incentives to bring Uber’s office to Dallas. But Uber drastically downsized the Dallas operation during the COVID-19 pandemic and forfeited the millions in support.

Toyota North America received more than $8 million in incentives from Plano to relocate its North American headquarters from California. Toyota also received $40 million from the Texas Enterprise Fund for bringing 3,650 workers to the new headquarters in Plano.

willyk wrote:5,000 jobs. I wonder how many people work in VP today? May become hard to get a bartender’s attention at Billy Can Can after this opens, and that’s a good thing.

Kelley USA wrote:The timeline for completion (December 2027) isn't as far off as you might think. A project of this magnitude, assuming this is the 80 story tower, would take 2.5 - 3 years for full completion. Remember that most of the parking is underground which takes quite a bit of time to build out and up. Plus you'd probably have a good 3 - 4 months of demo and cleanup on the existing apartments. Not to mention this is probably still anywhere from 9 - 12 months from even starting. It could be pretty tight when you really start adding everything up. But someone with more knowledge on construction might chime in otherwise??

MC_ScattCat wrote:I am a construction estimator and project this size takes months to a year to estimate and design. Permitting takes a while too. The lead time on materials is also longer right now than normal. Remember they will have to tear down the old structures. Then reroute or I would expect increase the size and locations of utilities. They most likely will have to plan for utilities to be in a location that will include what changes need to be made for the DART line too. I wouldn't expect to see anything rising out of the ground for 2 years assuming they started today.

Addison wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:The timeline for completion (December 2027) isn't as far off as you might think. A project of this magnitude, assuming this is the 80 story tower, would take 2.5 - 3 years for full completion. Remember that most of the parking is underground which takes quite a bit of time to build out and up. Plus you'd probably have a good 3 - 4 months of demo and cleanup on the existing apartments. Not to mention this is probably still anywhere from 9 - 12 months from even starting. It could be pretty tight when you really start adding everything up. But someone with more knowledge on construction might chime in otherwise??

A couple counterpoints:

1. I think there's some confusion about which tower GS will be occupying. It won't be the 80-story tower (whicb is supposed to be a combined hotel/residential project), but one of the other shorter towers, roughly 50 stories or so. No timeline for groundbreaking/completion has been given for the 80-story tower.

2. Giving them a 2.5 - 3 year window for construction of the GS tower is a bit too much. To compare a tower of similar height, the 505 building in Nashville only took 1.5 years for completion. Since a tenant is lined up and is on a tight deadline, there's no reason why things shouldn't move just as fast (or even faster) once groundbreaking takes place.

So yes, I do think it is plausible we could still be waiting until at least 2024 or 2025 for any activity, assuming Goldman Sachs' deadlines or requirements don't change. IMO, that's a pretty long wait.

Kelley USA wrote:

Addison wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:The timeline for completion (December 2027) isn't as far off as you might think. A project of this magnitude, assuming this is the 80 story tower, would take 2.5 - 3 years for full completion. Remember that most of the parking is underground which takes quite a bit of time to build out and up. Plus you'd probably have a good 3 - 4 months of demo and cleanup on the existing apartments. Not to mention this is probably still anywhere from 9 - 12 months from even starting. It could be pretty tight when you really start adding everything up. But someone with more knowledge on construction might chime in otherwise??

A couple counterpoints:

1. I think there's some confusion about which tower GS will be occupying. It won't be the 80-story tower (whicb is supposed to be a combined hotel/residential project), but one of the other shorter towers, roughly 50 stories or so. No timeline for groundbreaking/completion has been given for the 80-story tower.

2. Giving them a 2.5 - 3 year window for construction of the GS tower is a bit too much. To compare a tower of similar height, the 505 building in Nashville only took 1.5 years for completion. Since a tenant is lined up and is on a tight deadline, there's no reason why things shouldn't move just as fast (or even faster) once groundbreaking takes place.

So yes, I do think it is plausible we could still be waiting until at least 2024 or 2025 for any activity, assuming Goldman Sachs' deadlines or requirements don't change. IMO, that's a pretty long wait.

I'd also counter with a few points. 505 Nashville has a parking garage as opposed to underground parking. I would add at least 12 months of construction just for the underground parking. Also, Amli Fountain Place at 45 stories took 2.5 years to complete before they opened it up to residents. So even at 40 - 50 stories for GS I think the timeline could still be pretty tight.

Addison wrote:

Kelley USA wrote:The timeline for completion (December 2027) isn't as far off as you might think. A project of this magnitude, assuming this is the 80 story tower, would take 2.5 - 3 years for full completion. Remember that most of the parking is underground which takes quite a bit of time to build out and up. Plus you'd probably have a good 3 - 4 months of demo and cleanup on the existing apartments. Not to mention this is probably still anywhere from 9 - 12 months from even starting. It could be pretty tight when you really start adding everything up. But someone with more knowledge on construction might chime in otherwise??

A couple counterpoints:

1. I think there's some confusion about which tower GS will be occupying. It won't be the 80-story tower (whicb is supposed to be a combined hotel/residential project), but one of the other shorter towers, roughly 50 stories or so. No timeline for groundbreaking/completion has been given for the 80-story tower.

2. Giving them a 2.5 - 3 year window for construction of the GS tower is a bit too much. To compare a tower of similar height, the 505 building in Nashville only took 1.5 years for completion. Since a tenant is lined up and is on a tight deadline, there's no reason why things shouldn't move just as fast (or even faster) once groundbreaking takes place.

So yes, I do think it is plausible we could still be waiting until at least 2024 or 2025 for any activity, assuming Goldman Sachs' deadlines or requirements don't change. IMO, that's a pretty long wait.

Addison wrote:

rickbansal wrote:Fyi, I was talking with an executive from Goldman this past Saturday (at a social gathering) and he confirmed that Goldman will be consolidating their DFW workforce in a new building next to Perot Museum as well as adding thousands of additional jobs. He didn't believe Goldman would move their HQ to Dallas though.

A question for you...

Does your contact at GS have any information on the status of leases at their other offices they'll be vacating in DFW?

That would give us a clue for the construction timeline.

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:

rickbansal wrote:Fyi, I was talking with an executive from Goldman this past Saturday (at a social gathering) and he confirmed that Goldman will be consolidating their DFW workforce in a new building next to Perot Museum as well as adding thousands of additional jobs. He didn't believe Goldman would move their HQ to Dallas though.

A question for you...

Does your contact at GS have any information on the status of leases at their other offices they'll be vacating in DFW?

That would give us a clue for the construction timeline.

Assuming a fairly standard 10-year term, their lease at Trammel Crow Center expires some time in 2028...

undefinedprocess wrote:Y'all realize GS' tower/building would only be 15-20 stories, right? The 80+ story tower that's been teased for a year now is the hotel/resi mixed-use tower that's a completely separate portion of the project. At the City Council meeting, the words "15-20 stories" were said (speaking about the GS "tower"), and it was specifically mentioned that "it wouldn't be like your typical Dallas high-rise, it'd be more of a suburban campus feel."

Sigh.

undefinedprocess wrote:Y'all realize GS' tower/building would only be 15-20 stories, right? The 80+ story tower that's been teased for a year now is the hotel/resi mixed-use tower that's a completely separate portion of the project. At the City Council meeting, the words "15-20 stories" were said (speaking about the GS "tower"), and it was specifically mentioned that "it wouldn't be like your typical Dallas high-rise, it'd be more of a suburban campus feel."

Sigh.

undefinedprocess wrote:Y'all realize GS' tower/building would only be 15-20 stories, right? The 80+ story tower that's been teased for a year now is the hotel/resi mixed-use tower that's a completely separate portion of the project. At the City Council meeting, the words "15-20 stories" were said (speaking about the GS "tower"), and it was specifically mentioned that "it wouldn't be like your typical Dallas high-rise, it'd be more of a suburban campus feel."

Sigh.

rickbansal wrote:

undefinedprocess wrote:Y'all realize GS' tower/building would only be 15-20 stories, right? The 80+ story tower that's been teased for a year now is the hotel/resi mixed-use tower that's a completely separate portion of the project. At the City Council meeting, the words "15-20 stories" were said (speaking about the GS "tower"), and it was specifically mentioned that "it wouldn't be like your typical Dallas high-rise, it'd be more of a suburban campus feel."

Sigh.

You don't usually see 800,000 sqft in a 15-20 story building. I'd be pretty surprised if it was less than 40 stories or so.