Uptown/Victory Park: NorthEnd

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Cbdallas
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Cbdallas » 21 Dec 2022 07:30

I'll second the vote for Target there I already shop at the Tom Thumb across the street. Would be a game changer for that part of town.

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Semper454
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Semper454 » 03 Jan 2023 14:10

Need another Target in the core so bad. Cityplace is complete insanity basically all hours of the day.

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rono3849
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby rono3849 » 03 Jan 2023 16:44

I hadn't driven by the site for awhile. It's sad to see it devoid of all trees that had grown there. They were wiped out. Couldn't they have saved some of them?

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dallaz
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 03 Jan 2023 17:05

Matt777 wrote:
dallaz wrote:Scrolling through Reddit, came across this.

Not sure if it’s true or not…but it would be nice to see additional retail in the core.


https://www.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comment ... ame=iossmf
3E84DA8F-CBD6-4B1A-83FB-F707B2E4E4C7.jpeg


OMG Target yessss please. That would be a game changer for liveability in the area, as well as West Dallas/Oak Cliff that are retail starved.
Fr!

It sounds plausible based on additional comments. All we can do is wait and see.

11C21266-8516-4B41-8463-C794B5B5CEFD.jpeg


This is old. The original concept master plan. But I’m just now seeing the height of what I what I assume would be the very high end of what could be built. I wonder what would be the height range with the newer plan.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fo4y1F ... HdLrf/view

C8735937-FE61-4A52-BB67-56B10673B417.jpeg



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EC1AA365-52DF-4EE0-9211-51646CE52785.jpeg
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Tucy
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Tucy » 03 Jan 2023 18:38

Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words, but saying Target was a "bidder" on first floor retail space makes me very skeptical. Why would they be "bidding" on retail space in highly speculative buildings? (Not to mention, if Target were to locate in this development, it seems likely they would go for a multi-level store (i.e., not just first floor retail space).

Do we even know if there is going to be retail space in the Goldman Sachs buildings?

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dallaz
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 03 Jan 2023 19:37

Tucy wrote:Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words, but saying Target was a "bidder" on first floor retail space makes me very skeptical. Why would they be "bidding" on retail space in highly speculative buildings? (Not to mention, if Target were to locate in this development, it seems likely they would go for a multi-level store (i.e., not just first floor retail space).

Do we even know if there is going to be retail space in the Goldman Sachs buildings?

You make a lot of solid points. I truly don’t believe anything until it’s announced or at least in the process of happening. But any additional retail for that area would be great.

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MC_ScattCat
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby MC_ScattCat » 04 Jan 2023 10:30

Another thing to keep in mind is there a lot of new apartments built or soon to be built in North Oak Cliff / West Dallas. The nearest Target to us in North Oak Cliff is CityPlace and the nearest Walmart is Cockrell Hill. Both are not the best. I would love a Target just across the bridge.

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RodB
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby RodB » 04 Jan 2023 13:15

The Goldman Sach's building is a monumental disappointment. How do you squeeze 900,000 sf into 16 floors? This will be one of the largest buildings built in Dallas over the last 30 years and it may not reach 200 feet in height. The city gave over a million dollars per floor in tax incentives. Austin and Houston are putting Dallas to shame with new skyscrapers. SMH.

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dallaz
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 04 Jan 2023 13:39

RodB wrote:The Goldman Sach's building is a monumental disappointment. How do you squeeze 900,000 sf into 16 floors? This will be one of the largest buildings built in Dallas over the last 30 years and it may not reach 200 feet in height. The city gave over a million dollars per floor in tax incentives. Austin and Houston are putting Dallas to shame with new skyscrapers. SMH.

It’s possible. The Dallas WTC is 3.1 million sq ft with 15 floors.

Austin is building mostly very large condo/mixed use towers. Idk if Dallas is really a condo city. As for Houston, they always outdid Dallas when it comes to the amount of skyscrapers. I seen Houston’s skyline recently and it’s very dominating with the new additions. In terms of height and density, our skyline looks much smaller. Also the new skyscrapers make their skyline look more appealing aesthetically. Before then, I didn’t really think Houston’s skyline was attractive.

I gave up on us getting major skyscrapers when the new plans for this project was released. I tend to focus more on density and walkability. That’s the only thing we got going IMO. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing. I just expect the bulk of our skyline to largely look the same until a developer actually builds a true skyscraper. The high-rises in Uptown aren’t truly visible until you’re in the downtown area or if you’re viewing it from a certain angle.

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I45Tex
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby I45Tex » 04 Jan 2023 14:03

FWIW I'm glad Dallas isn't really a condo city. How different is living in a hirise condominium from being a hotel dweller?

Houston touts diversification but those skyscrapers aren't going up because of ports, space, renewable energy, engineering or biomedical (with the exception of a few hospitals). They're still because of petrochemical.

Oil's price volatility means that the market will be down again but also up again and an investor may be more willing to bet on that if they know their building will be in the best city to capitalize on such a price movement. Houston is still the 100% location for such bets to cluster. And Austin is right up there with Seattle, Denver, and maybe Portland in pole position as lower-tax relative bargains for techxiles looking to replicate the exact same sorts of economic cluster and ideological bubble effect they expected from their years in SF Bay.

Dallas is more like those stocks that hedge fund pirates want to break up so that investors will know what the company specializes in; it's not pure-play enough to gamble with, and that's a good thing in reality.

DFW has continued to grow and attract new residents and ideas faster in actual magnitude than those two cutie cities, because it's not the darling of one peculiar market play, so its real estate cannot follow that trend.
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R1070
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby R1070 » 04 Jan 2023 14:09

I'm happy as long as Dallas continues to become more dense and vibrant with neglected gaps filling in. We have a lot of available land to build on in the core of the city. Something Austin doesn't have.

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rickbansal
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby rickbansal » 04 Jan 2023 15:27

R1070 wrote:I'm happy as long as Dallas continues to become more dense and vibrant with neglected gaps filling in. We have a lot of available land to build on in the core of the city. Something Austin doesn't have.


Agreed. Tall skyscrapers look great from a distance but if there isn't sufficient density between the skyscrapers then livability and usability are greatly impacted which in turn negatively influences additional builds... If you compare the density of the greater downtown area between the 1980's and now, it's night and day even though the overall skyline hasn't changed much but I would contend the downtown area is so much nicer today.

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Addison
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Addison » 04 Jan 2023 17:19

Dallas's day in the sun will come for skyscrapers.

Downtown LA was dormant from a skyscraper standpoint for a long time as well, and now it's seen a number of new buildings in the past 10-20 years.

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rono3849
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby rono3849 » 04 Jan 2023 17:45

Dallas has always lagged behind Houston. It always will. The city of Houston is nearly twice the size of Dallas in terms of population, plus Houston has had 40+ story residential towers all over the city for years. The fact that Austin is rapidly catching up is a bit of a slap in the the face for Dallas, but Austin's Downtown footprint is much smaller than Dallas', hence they will go vertical to maximize their investments' profitability. Austin is undergoing an unprecedented boom, so this kind of speculative growth is coming in from all over the globe. Heck, poor old Ross Perot Jr. can't even get his Norman Foster designed tower out of the ground without catcalls or potential investors.

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Addison
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Addison » 04 Jan 2023 17:59

:idea:
rono3849 wrote:Dallas has always lagged behind Houston. It always will. The city of Houston is nearly twice the size of Dallas in terms of population, plus Houston has had 40+ story residential towers all over the city for years. The fact that Austin is rapidly catching up is a bit of a slap in the the face for Dallas, but Austin's Downtown footprint is much smaller than Dallas', hence they will go vertical to maximize their investments' profitability. Austin is undergoing an unprecedented boom, so this kind of speculative growth is coming in from all over the globe. Heck, poor old Ross Perot Jr. can't even get his Norman Foster designed tower out of the ground without catcalls or potential investors.


I don't think size has much to do with it. Miami, Seattle and even Nashville are running laps around Dallas despite being much smaller. Conversely, you have a city like Philaldelphia which (aside from the new Comast towers) hasn't had much new skyscraper activity.

In reality, besides the economic factors (Big Oil money in Houston and Big Tech money in Austin), there are several other things at play as well:

1. Houston & Austin have very quick permitting & rezoning (well, Houston doesn't really have much zoning) processes. In an era of high inflation and labor shrotages, time is money, and developers ain't got time to pussyfoot around for months with Dallas' slow & dysfunctional process.

2. I understand there are height restriction in downtown Dallas that don't really affect downtown Houston or downtown Austin due to Love Field's proximity.

3. Downtown Dallas is not the geographic nor population center of DFW (for now, Addison, Carrollton and Irving are) and it's bleeding workers/companies. Developers take note of this and become convinced the demand isn't there. Meanwhile, downtown's Houston and Austin *ARE* the geographic/population centers of their regions.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby rono3849 » 04 Jan 2023 18:23

Addison, everything you stated it right on the money. Dallas' permitting and zoning process is a slow-walk through bureaucratic hades. They do everything to put up roadblocks on new development Downtown. The Love Field "landing strip" height restriction Downtown can be worked around on it's edges, hence the proposed 83-story Hunt fantasy tower, but I think it's just an lame excuse for the lack of vitality Downtown. The city has put too many obstacles up for developers to invest in high risk projects. Uptown is where all of the money has been invested the past 20 years. We'll see if Hunt actually goes vertical with their Goldman-Sachs project. A 50-story tower adjacent to the low rise would be nice. If Harwood builds their 45-story tower down the street, that would be encouraging. I am bullish that the 47-story Isosceles Tower & 50-story Portman Holdings Tower are going to happen. I just don't think we'll see a supertall here anytime soon.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby eburress » 04 Jan 2023 18:31

For the most part Houston and Austin aren't competing with other municipalities the way Dallas has. Dallas has lost sooooo much to Irving, Plano, Frisco, Southlake, etc. If Dallas was thinking ahead 80ish years ago, it would have annexed everything in its path so it could control its destiny.

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Addison
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Addison » 04 Jan 2023 18:34

eburress wrote:For the most part Houston and Austin aren't competing with other municipalities the way Dallas has. Dallas has lost sooooo much to Irving, Plano, Frisco, Southlake, etc. If Dallas was thinking ahead 80ish years ago, it would have annexed everything in its path so it could control its destiny.


It wouldn't be so bad if Dallas hadn't sprawled in such a lopsided way.

The fact that Ellis, Kaufman and Rockwall Counties are finally exploding with growth/development is a good thing in a way for downtown, as it will counterbalance (to an extent) the race to Oklahoma.

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MC_ScattCat
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby MC_ScattCat » 05 Jan 2023 10:36

Dallas is finally starting to grow south, but more so suburbs than city itself. I see DFW turning more into a LA than a Houston long term. The good news here in DFW is our economy is must more diverse so we can ride out the downtimes better than other places. At some point we will see more than uptown height skyscrapers, but when is anyone's guess.

Back to this site in particular I do feel disappointment. It's basically a Addison building in the heart of downtown.

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eburress
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby eburress » 05 Jan 2023 11:03

Addison wrote:
eburress wrote:For the most part Houston and Austin aren't competing with other municipalities the way Dallas has. Dallas has lost sooooo much to Irving, Plano, Frisco, Southlake, etc. If Dallas was thinking ahead 80ish years ago, it would have annexed everything in its path so it could control its destiny.


It wouldn't be so bad if Dallas hadn't sprawled in such a lopsided way.

The fact that Ellis, Kaufman and Rockwall Counties are finally exploding with growth/development is a good thing in a way for downtown, as it will counterbalance (to an extent) the race to Oklahoma.


Is even/consistent sprawl the thing that distinguishes Dallas' Downtown from those of Austin and Houston? I personally don't think so because neither other city has sprawled out equally in all directions.

My feeling is that the differences between these cities' downtowns are primarily due to the transportation infrastructure that allowed sprawl to happen in the first place and the number of municipalities competing for companies/jobs. There are obviously other factors as well but these seem to me to be the main ones.

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Addison
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Addison » 05 Jan 2023 11:26

eburress wrote:
Addison wrote:
eburress wrote:For the most part Houston and Austin aren't competing with other municipalities the way Dallas has. Dallas has lost sooooo much to Irving, Plano, Frisco, Southlake, etc. If Dallas was thinking ahead 80ish years ago, it would have annexed everything in its path so it could control its destiny.


It wouldn't be so bad if Dallas hadn't sprawled in such a lopsided way.

The fact that Ellis, Kaufman and Rockwall Counties are finally exploding with growth/development is a good thing in a way for downtown, as it will counterbalance (to an extent) the race to Oklahoma.


Is even/consistent sprawl the thing that distinguishes Dallas' Downtown from those of Austin and Houston? I personally don't think so because neither other city has sprawled out equally in all directions.


I'd say so, at least in Houston. The suburbs are pretty well built out in every direction radiating from downtown, and in a fairly even fashion.

Dallas' southern suburbs aren't nearly as developed as Pearland, League City, Sugar Land, Pasadena, Missouri City, etc.

EDIT: To add, while Ellis County has only just reached 200K people, Galveston and Brazoria Counties alone have over 700K people combined, and that's not including the southern suburbs in Fort Bend County.

Dallas is a lot more like Atlanta in that with the growth of the southern suburbs, there's still quite of bit of what is called "leapfrog" development as the intense development is still heavily lopsided into North Fulton, Gwinnett, Cobb, and even (now) Forsyth County.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby DFW » 05 Jan 2023 13:50

The thing is that Dallas and Fort Worth suburbs are richer than Houston and Austin suburbs. This is one reason the inter cities of Austin and Houston continue to outpace the inter city of Dallas in new building developments. Most businesses are relocating to the rich north suburbs. Something has to be done for Dallas or it will continue to be ignored.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby CRE_Investor » 05 Jan 2023 14:06

Addison wrote:Dallas's day in the sun will come for skyscrapers.

Downtown LA was dormant from a skyscraper standpoint for a long time as well, and now it's seen a number of new buildings in the past 10-20 years.


Dallas had it's skyscraper time, it was the 1980s. I will never understand the obsession with skyscrapers on this board. They aren't getting built here anymore because we have enough land, even in the CBD, that you don't have to go that vertical, they're expensive, and most of all office tenant's don't want them anymore. Look at all the skyscrapers we have, they're 30% vacant and many are being converted to include apartments or hotel uses.

I agree we should want density and good urban form, but most skyscrapers are bad at street level and don't encourage a human scale built environment. I think I've said this before, but I would be surprised if there is a new 50+ story office tower built in Dallas in the next 20 years.

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eburress
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby eburress » 05 Jan 2023 16:26

DFW wrote:The thing is that Dallas and Fort Worth suburbs are richer than Houston and Austin suburbs. This is one reason the inter cities of Austin and Houston continue to outpace the inter city of Dallas in new building developments. Most businesses are relocating to the rich north suburbs. Something has to be done for Dallas or it will continue to be ignored.


Conventional wisdom is that it's the opposite of what you're describing that's happened in Dallas. Jobs/companies are moving to the suburbs where their employees (priced out of the central city) have found cheaper housing, better schools, etc.

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Addison
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Addison » 05 Jan 2023 18:21

eburress wrote:
DFW wrote:The thing is that Dallas and Fort Worth suburbs are richer than Houston and Austin suburbs. This is one reason the inter cities of Austin and Houston continue to outpace the inter city of Dallas in new building developments. Most businesses are relocating to the rich north suburbs. Something has to be done for Dallas or it will continue to be ignored.


Conventional wisdom is that it's the opposite of what you're describing that's happened in Dallas. Jobs/companies are moving to the suburbs where their employees (priced out of the central city) have found cheaper housing, better schools, etc.


Yes, that's right, although I wouldn't necessarily say they were priced out of the central city.

Dallas is different from Austin and Houston though in that most of those people have been steadily marching northward.

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Addison
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Addison » 05 Jan 2023 18:25

CRE_Investor wrote:
Addison wrote:Dallas's day in the sun will come for skyscrapers.

Downtown LA was dormant from a skyscraper standpoint for a long time as well, and now it's seen a number of new buildings in the past 10-20 years.


Dallas had it's skyscraper time, it was the 1980s. I will never understand the obsession with skyscrapers on this board. They aren't getting built here anymore because we have enough land, even in the CBD, that you don't have to go that vertical, they're expensive, and most of all office tenant's don't want them anymore. Look at all the skyscrapers we have, they're 30% vacant and many are being converted to include apartments or hotel uses.

I agree we should want density and good urban form, but most skyscrapers are bad at street level and don't encourage a human scale built environment. I think I've said this before, but I would be surprised if there is a new 50+ story office tower built in Dallas in the next 20 years.


I still think downtown will eventually see another skyscraper boom at some point in the future. It may not necessarily be for office space, but it could be hotels or residential as well.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby rono3849 » 05 Jan 2023 19:03

CRE_Investor wrote:
Addison wrote:Dallas's day in the sun will come for skyscrapers.

Downtown LA was dormant from a skyscraper standpoint for a long time as well, and now it's seen a number of new buildings in the past 10-20 years.


Dallas had it's skyscraper time, it was the 1980s. I will never understand the obsession with skyscrapers on this board. They aren't getting built here anymore because we have enough land, even in the CBD, that you don't have to go that vertical, they're expensive, and most of all office tenant's don't want them anymore. Look at all the skyscrapers we have, they're 30% vacant and many are being converted to include apartments or hotel uses.

I agree we should want density and good urban form, but most skyscrapers are bad at street level and don't encourage a human scale built environment. I think I've said this before, but I would be surprised if there is a new 50+ story office tower built in Dallas in the next 20 years.


Respectfully I disagree. I think Portman Holdings new 50-story tower has a great shot at being built and Hunt will build a good sized tower. around 50-stories or so, next to the Goldman Sachs building. Most towers are usually multi-use towers these days. We'll see.

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dallaz
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 05 Jan 2023 19:51

CRE_Investor wrote:
Addison wrote:Dallas's day in the sun will come for skyscrapers.

Downtown LA was dormant from a skyscraper standpoint for a long time as well, and now it's seen a number of new buildings in the past 10-20 years.


Dallas had it's skyscraper time, it was the 1980s. I will never understand the obsession with skyscrapers on this board. They aren't getting built here anymore because we have enough land, even in the CBD, that you don't have to go that vertical, they're expensive, and most of all office tenant's don't want them anymore. Look at all the skyscrapers we have, they're 30% vacant and many are being converted to include apartments or hotel uses.

I agree we should want density and good urban form, but most skyscrapers are bad at street level and don't encourage a human scale built environment. I think I've said this before, but I would be surprised if there is a new 50+ story office tower built in Dallas in the next 20 years.
Yep, Dallas did have its skyscraper boom in the 80s and it was cut short due to the savings and loans crisis. It didn’t last for no more than 7 years. This has been the longest in Dallas history that no major skyscrapers have been built. It’s also a reason why our skyline looks largely from circa 1987. Millions of sq ft of office space became vacant after very large regional banks failed.

By the time Downtown Dallas started to recover and revitalize. The suburbs already had their new suburban office parks and most of the downtown office towers IG were no longer desirable. And many of the 80s office towers were built with no ground level retail or amenities that encourage pedestrian activity.

What makes places like Austin different is its sustained skyscraper growth during its boom period. And it’s being constructed after the new urbanist movement. Which give them the advantage of constructing large towers with the ground level in mind. Dallas never fully hit its 80s peak. IG that’s also the reason for many of the downtown parking lots too. Much of what was demoed for new towers never got off the ground.

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dallaz
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 09 Jan 2023 03:28

Finally found the Urban Peer Review Board Presentation

Goldman’s Campus is 346 ft (tallest potion). The shorter portion is 249 ft. So, it’s not far off in comparison to what has gone up in the surrounding area. The Crescent is around 249 ft. (Renderings and site plan included ;) )

Honestly, I thought it would be shorter… :lol:

https://dallascityhall.com/departments/ ... %20res.pdf

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eburress
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby eburress » 09 Jan 2023 04:35

^ Great find...thanks for posting! It's a little taller than I was expecting as well so that's something. haha

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vman
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby vman » 09 Jan 2023 07:43

dallaz wrote:Finally found the Urban Peer Review Board Presentation

Goldman’s Campus is 346 ft (tallest potion). The shorter portion is 249 ft. So, it’s not far off in comparison to what has gone up in the surrounding area. The Crescent is around 249 ft. (Renderings and site plan included ;) )

Honestly, I thought it would be shorter… :lol:

https://dallascityhall.com/departments/ ... %20res.pdf



You know, after finally seeing renderings of the entire building(s), it's not as bad as I thought.

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kingkong34
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby kingkong34 » 09 Jan 2023 08:27

I think the elevation already starts at 101 ft above sea level. To do some complicated math, the elevations would from ground level would be at its tallest 245ft above the pavement and then 148ft at its shortest.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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dallaz
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 09 Jan 2023 09:06

kingkong34 wrote:I think the elevation already starts at 101 ft above sea level. To do some complicated math, the elevations would from ground level would be at its tallest 245ft above the pavement and then 148ft at its shortest.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for pointing that out. I could barely see that and was half sleep trying to post it. I thought it said Ft not EL. But even then…it’s equivalent to the Crescent. Not too bad depending on how you look at it.

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R1070
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby R1070 » 09 Jan 2023 11:53

245' + the upper mechanical floors. This will be be closer to 300'.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 09 Jan 2023 14:48

kingkong34 wrote:I think the elevation already starts at 101 ft above sea level. To do some complicated math, the elevations would from ground level would be at its tallest 245ft above the pavement and then 148ft at its shortest.


Victory is around 420 feet above MSL.

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I45Tex
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby I45Tex » 09 Jan 2023 16:01

Yes but remember this is We-Har (or the Lowest Of Uptown, LOUT, or Tush of Oak Lawn, TOOL), so we don’t need to be the very ZZ top of the market compared to Victory

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Tucy
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Tucy » 18 Jan 2023 15:41

Addison wrote::idea:
rono3849 wrote:Dallas has always lagged behind Houston. It always will. The city of Houston is nearly twice the size of Dallas in terms of population, plus Houston has had 40+ story residential towers all over the city for years. The fact that Austin is rapidly catching up is a bit of a slap in the the face for Dallas, but Austin's Downtown footprint is much smaller than Dallas', hence they will go vertical to maximize their investments' profitability. Austin is undergoing an unprecedented boom, so this kind of speculative growth is coming in from all over the globe. Heck, poor old Ross Perot Jr. can't even get his Norman Foster designed tower out of the ground without catcalls or potential investors.


I don't think size has much to do with it. Miami, Seattle and even Nashville are running laps around Dallas despite being much smaller. Conversely, you have a city like Philaldelphia which (aside from the new Comast towers) hasn't had much new skyscraper activity.

In reality, besides the economic factors (Big Oil money in Houston and Big Tech money in Austin), there are several other things at play as well:

1. Houston & Austin have very quick permitting & rezoning (well, Houston doesn't really have much zoning) processes. In an era of high inflation and labor shrotages, time is money, and developers ain't got time to pussyfoot around for months with Dallas' slow & dysfunctional process.

2. I understand there are height restriction in downtown Dallas that don't really affect downtown Houston or downtown Austin due to Love Field's proximity.

3. Downtown Dallas is not the geographic nor population center of DFW (for now, Addison, Carrollton and Irving are) and it's bleeding workers/companies. Developers take note of this and become convinced the demand isn't there. Meanwhile, downtown's Houston and Austin *ARE* the geographic/population centers of their regions.


There are parts of downtown Dallas that do not have height restrictions, and downtown Houston (at least most of it) is subject to very similar height restrictions because of the proximity of Hobby Airport. Apparently, downtown Austin does not have that issue.

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Tucy
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Tucy » 18 Jan 2023 15:46

There have been a number of articles in the business press recently about the struggles of Goldman Sachs (including some large layoffs) and the stepping back from the goal of creating a large consumer banking operation (Marcus). My understanding is that a lot of what they have in Dallas's northern suburbs are Marcus employees. Other than the demise of Marcus, which would clearly be a negative for North Texas, and perhaps for the Uptown "Meadow" project, it is easy to see this news affecting Dallas in two entirely different ways. (1) If the company retrenches, it might scale back of even cancel the project. or (2) in order to lower costs long-term, they might re-commit to the Uptown project and perhaps even scale it up, transferring even more of the company to North Texas. Any rumors out there?

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rono3849
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby rono3849 » 18 Jan 2023 18:32

hunt.north.end.update.jpg


Tucy wrote:There have been a number of articles in the business press recently about the struggles of Goldman Sachs (including some large layoffs) and the stepping back from the goal of creating a large consumer banking operation (Marcus). My understanding is that a lot of what they have in Dallas's northern suburbs are Marcus employees. Other than the demise of Marcus, which would clearly be a negative for North Texas, and perhaps for the Uptown "Meadow" project, it is easy to see this news affecting Dallas in two entirely different ways. (1) If the company retrenches, it might scale back of even cancel the project. or (2) in order to lower costs long-term, they might re-commit to the Uptown project and perhaps even scale it up, transferring even more of the company to North Texas. Any rumors out there?


Goldman-Sachs is a massive operation. They've been known to jettison operations and move on. If the campus on Field Street is a consolidation of offices in the North Texas area, I feel fairly certain that they'll move forward with this project, especially since they have already broken ground on the development. The company has made a commitment or Hunt wouldn't have demolished and cleared the North End Apartment complex. The city has also kicked in monies to get this project off the ground and Hunt wouldn't squander those dollars. As far as any adjacent towers, those could certainly be in question. I always felt any offices in those buildings would be filled with businesses associated with G-S or vendors to the financial industry. A hotel and residential would follow as well.
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 20 Jan 2023 14:43

Lets be honest as well. Hunt knows that if GS downsized, let's say reduced to one of the two buildings, Hunt would be easily able to lease the second. Uptown is still a very strong market for new space. Big companies want space that's largely already built, but they want brand new and Dallas, despite the US economic situation woes is stable and more conservative since the 80's crash made people act differently. Unlike Austin which builds on trendy waves of popularity. with crazy architecture and heights on a whim. If Hunt had an empty building in Uptown they would be able to lease it while the Epic in Deep Ellum stays empty as a sublease space from Uber's failed attempt to open major offices here. Most of the companies that move here don't want to wait on a brand new HQ to be they want it to be ready when they are ready to move. It's a weird problem where they won't sign on as GS did here as the named tenant to get a project started. They want to sit back and wait for a developer to get the project off the ground and then backfill. On the other side developers here don't seem to build a lot of space unless they have a guaranteed name tenant like a Goldman Sachs. So we are stuck with high occupancy rates with smaller new builds until a developer finally stops being skittish and just builds knowing someone is likely to lease when the construction if halfway complete.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 03 Feb 2023 15:58

I love the streetscape proposed in these renderings. What do y’all think?

Some of these were already posted, but the pics cropped out some of the buildings.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby R1070 » 03 Feb 2023 16:41

I like it too. Hopefully it isn't too insular though. I want it to interact with the major streets through there rather than inward. I personally like the scale of the tallest towers much better. I think that proposed 80 story building while cool to have, wouldn't have fit in with the surroundings much (like the Williams Tower in Uptown Houston).

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 03 Feb 2023 16:49

R1070 wrote:I like it too. Hopefully it isn't too insular though. I want it to interact with the major streets through there rather than inward. I personally like the scale of the tallest towers much better. I think that proposed 80 story building while cool to have, wouldn't have fit in with the surroundings much (like the Williams Tower in Uptown Houston).

After much thought, I agree. As a skyscraper enthusiast, I love the idea of large skyscrapers. But this does fit better with the overall neighborhood. It would be hella dominating to have buildings that tall around mostly high-rises. You mentioned Uptown Houston as an example, but also Midtown Atlanta too. There would be major gaps in the skyline due to the height and it would likely never been filled in due to height restrictions in Uptown (and other surrounding districts)

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby I45Tex » 03 Feb 2023 20:22

dallaz wrote:I love the streetscape proposed in these renderings. What do y’all think?


It's a good discussion to have. Thanks for restarting it. My 2c: We could call it the New Tchotchke Modernism -- still very corporate but flairfully so.*. It's got verve but it's only there to meet the eye, not because someone put benches in front of shops and only kept them where they found people kept wanting to sit in them.



* movie trivia from IMDb: "The specific adjoining restaurants in the movie [Office Space, where servers are strictly mandated to wear appropriately many 'pieces of flair' as part of their uniform] -- Chotchkie's, Chili's, and Flingers -- were directly inspired by the three restaurants that used to be at the corner of O'Connor Boulevard, and Highway 114 in Irving, Texas: Bennigans, Chili's, and Frijoles (all closed in 2007)."

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Semper454 » 05 Feb 2023 21:42

Major fail. Everything far too inward-facing, not nearly enough street interaction. Hard/impossible to imagine those inward plazas ever reach critical retail/restaurant mass to generate any serious traffic outside of weekday lunches, and, see The Exchange downtown, is even that even feasible nowadays?

And when you have a lot this enormous that becomes basically a black hole...

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby R1070 » 05 Feb 2023 22:00

The green space should face Field Street

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby rono3849 » 05 Feb 2023 23:57

dallaz wrote:After much thought, I agree. As a skyscraper enthusiast, I love the idea of large skyscrapers. But this does fit better with the overall neighborhood. It would be hella dominating to have buildings that tall around mostly high-rises. You mentioned Uptown Houston as an example, but also Midtown Atlanta too. There would be major gaps in the skyline due to the height and it would likely never been filled in due to height restrictions in Uptown (and other surrounding districts)


The two tallest Hunt towers appear to be in the neighborhood of 50 to 55 stories tall, which will definitely stand out in that area. If Harwood #12 is around 45-stories and the Field street towers are also in that range, they'll all blend in with that end of Downtown. Of course, the El Fenix development & Perot's Hillwood Urban development could also fill in gaps too. Another wild card is the potential development just North of the AAC parking lot that is held by the Canadian developer that owns the Dallas Stars. He's looking at a hotel and/or residential tower on two pieces of land that he owns.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby tamtagon » 06 Feb 2023 06:56

I would expect Stemmons corridor to get the next 700'+ towers, Ha but not anytime soon.

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dallaz
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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby dallaz » 07 Feb 2023 21:13

Semper454 wrote:Major fail. Everything far too inward-facing, not nearly enough street interaction. Hard/impossible to imagine those inward plazas ever reach critical retail/restaurant mass to generate any serious traffic outside of weekday lunches, and, see The Exchange downtown, is even that even feasible nowadays?

And when you have a lot this enormous that becomes basically a black hole...

I feel you when it comes to being insular. I would really like to see how it interacts with Field/Houston/Nowitzki.

But if they actually build the residential and hotel component, it could probably help activate the green space.

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Re: Uptown Dallas - Field Street Development [North End Apartments Site]

Postby Urban Toreador » 09 Feb 2023 14:22

Current pic of the progress including work being done on Houston St.
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