Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

I imagine its good for the resale value of the properties too if they can show the FAA has previously approved the property for taller structures.

41 feet shorter than cityplace. I’ll take it. That area needs more volume and density. Sounds like every residential option will require u to fill out who u bank with, ur ABA/routing #,along with ur SSN on the application. Aside from that I think it’ll be a catalyst for more projects in that area, hoping they cover up that ugly cityplace tower.

Side tangent re: that part of the city. The details were lacking so I’m glad Cityplace didn’t become a 1980s Rockefeller Center as planned.

But even if the lone survivor, Cityplace tower, would have some weaknesses as a piece of monumental sculpture, it’s a cliff face that I sure enjoy in street views.

zblevinz555 wrote:Aside from that I think it’ll be a catalyst for more projects in that area, hoping they cover up that ugly cityplace tower.

I actually like the cityplace tower, it's only problem is the visibility of the window curtains makes it look ridiculous. I assume it would be prohibitively expensive to adequately tint that much glass, but the curtains give it an abandoned look, as if some of the windows are punched out or that some are boarded up.
I still would have liked to see that original twin tower get built.

I wonder if they will open that Dart stop up to the public if they add onto the Central. It would draw traffic into the area, especially with West Village being a walk across the highway. CityPlace can't hog that stop up forever.

It has a door to the public but is that closed for some reason like constriction or covid?

StreetLights portion it seems:

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2022014633

CTroyMathis wrote:StreetLights portion it seems:

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2022014633

Code: Select all


PROJECT

Project Name:
    The Central
Project Number:
    TABS2022014633
Facility Name:
    The Central
Location Address:
    2828 North Haskell Avenue
    Dallas, TX 75204
Location County:
    Dallas

Start Date:
    6/30/2022
Completion Date:
    5/31/2025
Estimated Cost:
    $109,079,491
Type of Work:
    New Construction
Type of Funds:
    This project is privately funded, on private land for private use.
Scope of Work:
    Concrete tower located at Haskell Ave and Central Expy next to Cityplace and West Village in Dallas. The site consists of 351 multifamily units and a leasing office with 470K gross sq ft. Project also has a retail component with 3.6K gross sq ft.
Square Footage:
    326,001 ft 2

Are the private funds provided by the tenant?
    No

Current Status:
    Project Registered

PERSON FILING FORM

Contact Name:
    Leslie Pitts

RAS

RAS Name:
    GEORGE K,GRIMES
RAS #:
    49
RAS Address:
    5808 ROYAL CLUB DR
    ARLINGTON, TX 76017
RAS Phone:
    (817) 915-8484

OWNER

Owner Name:
    Urban Smart Growth, LP and Central Carroll Interests, LLC
Owner Address:
    4514 Cole Avenue Suite 1100
    Dallas, Texas 75205
Owner Phone:
    (214) 750-7688
Contact Name:

TENANT

Not Assigned
DESIGN FIRM

Design Firm Name:
    StreetLights Creative Studio, LLC
Design Firm Address:
    2300 North Field Street Suite 800
    Dallas, Texas 75201
Design Firm Phone:
    (214) 922-1140


High-rise apartments planned for $2.5 billion Dallas mixed-use project

StreetLights Residential, which has constructed more apartment towers in Dallas than any other builder, would start work on The Central tower as early as this summer, according to planning documents filed with the state.

The 351-unit residential tower would open in 2025 and cost more than $109 million.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... e-project/

The project would be the first high-rise in the development.

StreetLights Residential representatives said they plan a formal announcement of the project in the next 90 days.

With Streetlight Residential now onboard you know this will get done.
Now we wait De La Vegas next move. I wonder if they scaled back their Office plans, as i believe was previously reported. If anything we need more rental units in the city.

The proposed park plan looks pretty decent:

With the labor and material shortage in the construction industry I can’t see this at full build out or it will just be a really long time. Tons of prospects that want to relocate but there’s no where to put them. I get most all of these project proposals are just advertisements I’m just hoping demand will still be in place once the labor and supply rebound

zblevinz555 wrote: Tons of prospects that want to relocate but there’s no where to put them.

If you are referring to corporate relocation prospects, there is no shortage of places to put them. According to CBRE, there is more than 65 Million square feet of office space available in the DFW metro area, with another 4.5 Million square feet under construction. For a point of reference, that gives us enough room to relocate the entire office-space workforce of the Minneapolis-St Paul metro area, with a little room to spare.

^statistics like that really show how massive the Metroplex has become.

Tucy wrote:

zblevinz555 wrote: Tons of prospects that want to relocate but there’s no where to put them.

If you are referring to corporate relocation prospects, there is no shortage of places to put them. According to CBRE, there is more than 65 Million square feet of office space available in the DFW metro area, with another 4.5 Million square feet under construction. For a point of reference, that gives us enough room to relocate the entire office-space workforce of the Minneapolis-St Paul metro area, with a little room to spare.

Lol I know I remembered that right after I submitted the post.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:With Streetlight Residential now onboard you know this will get done.
Now we wait De La Vegas next move. I wonder if they scaled back their Office plans, as i believe was previously reported. If anything we need more rental units in the city.

I wouldn't put it that way at all. The inexperienced large project developer here Delavega is selling off parcels to keep afloat. Both JPI and Streetlights are building where ever they can get cheap enough land without fighting the city or having to assemble other parcels and Streetlights knows just like JPI they can overcharge for rent while marketing the theoretical future of the rest of the site as a selling point to renters. Remember Streetlights already had a project on Lemmon and Oaklawn ready but the constant fighting with the Oak Lawn Committee and neighborhood groups makes for a constant hassle for many developers they may just never build on that option. Here they can build, lease up, and flip the property to out-of-state investors without dealing with those issues. Overall getting the site developed is a good thing I agree but this is just Delavega making sure he doesn't lose the whole site but instead selling off parcels to developers that have the construction loans check in hand. Overall I still think it's good news but it does not guarantee the larger project has been endorsed or on track.

Streetlights: https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 18&row=259

Is this the apt building that was said to start next to the midrise apt building?

CTroyMathis wrote:Streetlights: https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 18&row=259

225 ft? So like 20 stories... The ol Dallas special

I think I have given up on seeing any supertalls in Dallas and maybe even mid talls.

Cbdallas wrote:I think I have given up on seeing any supertalls in Dallas and maybe even mid talls.

If the Hunt Properties development ever breaks ground, we'll see a supertall, but I think 40 to 45 stories appears to be the maximum Dallas standard for this era.

Dallas has a lot of land to build on still. You typically have to start building up higher when the land becomes more scarce, like what we are seeing in DT Austin. Sometimes developers build tall for decorative reasons, like a lot of the buildings you see in Atlanta with ornamental tops, but the actual building floor counts aren't that high.

R1070 wrote: like a lot of the buildings you see in Atlanta with ornamental tops, but the actual building floor counts aren't that high.

You're right, Atlanta developers definitely like to crown their buildings!!

vman wrote:

R1070 wrote: like a lot of the buildings you see in Atlanta with ornamental tops, but the actual building floor counts aren't that high.

You're right, Atlanta developers definitely like to crown their buildings!!

So true. When I visited Atlanta recently, I was struck by how many of their buildings had elaborate tops with domes, pyramids, columns, and other kinds of ornamental embellishments. I wish Dallas had some of that flair to their buildings too. I also visited Charlotte on the same trip and loved their use of sculptures and art on their streets. Their Downtown was beautiful. Dallas should do the same. It made the Downtown urban experience that much nicer and pedestrian friendly.

Not trying to get political but my question is as a whole not just this project as I lack knowledge on these sorts of things but with possibly a potential recession looming how might that impact these proposed projects? Would everything stall like it did with covid? This is if we even have a recession

zblevinz555 wrote:Not trying to get political but my question is as a whole not just this project as I lack knowledge on these sorts of things but with possibly a potential recession looming how might that impact these proposed projects? Would everything stall like it did with covid? This is if we even have a recession

Great question. If we go into a recession, I expect all of the proposed buildings will be frozen in amber. The economy is teetering now and if things go in the tank, I suspect all bets are off. This economic situation is becoming a crisis now and without any leadership, the country is in a mess.

If nothing else, it would give us a handy excuse.

rono3849 wrote:

zblevinz555 wrote:Not trying to get political but my question is as a whole not just this project as I lack knowledge on these sorts of things but with possibly a potential recession looming how might that impact these proposed projects? Would everything stall like it did with covid? This is if we even have a recession

Great question. If we go into a recession, I expect all of the proposed buildings will be frozen in amber. The economy is teetering now and if things go in the tank, I suspect all bets are off. This economic situation is becoming a crisis now and without any leadership, the country is in a mess.

Thanks. I hear you. Just a pathetic situation. That’s all I’m gonna say about it

This feels like it could be worse than what happened during 2020. Don't get me wrong, 2020 definitely seemed bleak, unprecedented, and highly uncertain. However, I feel like things rebounded quicker than expected (and quicker than they should have).

I'm not really sure what to expect here, but it doesn't look good. We definitely enjoyed quite a strong economy and a lot of growth in the DFW area for the last couple of decades.

I've always wondered how we would fare during a national recession, and I guess I'm about to find out. A part of me was thinking that this may just encourage even more companies and people to leave the more expensive cities and relocate to Texas, meaning we would fare better than other parts of the country.

We have already been through several recessions in Dallas. It was not built yesterday even though parts of DFW were. DFW has always faired well in a recession due to our diverse economy and not being too trendy or too off-trend when it comes to most industries. I think some of what we are seeing in Dallas right now is just investors knowing that even if a recession hits Dallas/Fort Worth is still a better bet than many markets.

I also see way too many people flip back and forth on the economic outlook to consider anything settled. I see the signs everyone else is as a layman but I think it easier particularly on a forum like this to jump on the everything is crap time to give up mantra than it is to plow over the mountain top. I will use a famous phrase used by drag queens constantly they are praying for my downfall. I am not saying anyone is happy to see a downturn just that the natural inclination is to predict its downfall over let's say a plateau or mild growth or wobbly progress etc.

As for this development, I am happier the master developer here is giving way to developers who are ready with funding for development rather than waiting on some mythical office tenant that will choose an unknown Dallas developer. The Master Developer is just letting residential developers do what they do best while he waits for his unicorn. IF the unicorn never materializes the developer will sell off the land and we are more likely to get more urban-style projects here than strip centers hopefully.

Developers seek approvals for high-rise north of downtown

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... utType=amp

Dallas apartment builder StreetLights Residential is seeking zoning to build a more than 20-story in the project.

More than 20 stories?

Pretty sure this is the tower that's supposed to go up near the mid-rise apartments.

This development will certainly have its own skyline. One or two of those buildings look like they are at least 40-story towers.

R1070 wrote:Pretty sure this is the tower that's supposed to go up near the mid-rise apartments.

It is. I just don’t remember it being taller than 20 stories.

dallaz wrote:

R1070 wrote:Pretty sure this is the tower that's supposed to go up near the mid-rise apartments.

It is. I just don’t remember it being taller than 20 stories.

Yea, I was thinking more in the 18-20 height.

R1070 wrote:

dallaz wrote:

R1070 wrote:Pretty sure this is the tower that's supposed to go up near the mid-rise apartments.

It is. I just don’t remember it being taller than 20 stories.

Yea, I was thinking more in the 18-20 height.

Same here. I wonder is it a typo or is the new tower now a little taller?

Seeing this go up without the Sam’s Club is very telling. So many others can do mixed use in an urban setting— Kroger, Tom Thumb, Whole Foods and Central Market. But Walmart could only envision a strip center that captured 10% of the value of this site, and nothing else. So they walked away from it.

Walmart/Sams doesn't care about density they care about dominating the grocery market and their target customer owns an SUV or Truck and wants to park in a giant lot, load up with cheap stuff and get out without dealing with parking garages/escalators etc. This store was always about Sam's getting one of their bulk stores in the city center so they didn't lose the urban market to the Costco or Krogers, Tom THumbs, Sprouts even. It was never that urban development wouldn't work here it was about Sam's club wanting to hold back the other brands. Sams was willing to pay the high price for the land too if Trammel Crow could get it apporved.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Walmart/Sams doesn't care about density they care about dominating the grocery market and their target customer owns an SUV or Truck and wants to park in a giant lot, load up with cheap stuff and get out without dealing with parking garages/escalators etc. This store was always about Sam's getting one of their bulk stores in the city center so they didn't lose the urban market to the Costco or Krogers, Tom THumbs, Sprouts even. It was never that urban development wouldn't work here it was about Sam's club wanting to hold back the other brands. Sams was willing to pay the high price for the land too if Trammel Crow could get it apporved.

Very true. There's not even Sam's Club's in NYC.
What's telling is that Trammel crow was willing to go with the stupid plan, and after it fell through, they gave up entirely on the property.

They had no vision and or interest on a premiere site in their own backyard. Tells you a lot about how awful they went about lying and manipulating the public.

They walked away with their tail tucked in behind their hind legs.

Yeah, they could have easily done more than this developer is doing because they have the Trammel Crow name but after losing the Sams' Club battle they needed to back away entirely. This property associated with that developer had a stench that was better solved by unloading the land to a developer they could blame inaction on the city and naysayers in the community. I guarantee Trammel Crow the development company is pointing at this development as a failure because it's not already sky-high and that their plan would have brought jobs and shopping to the city center blah blah blah. The whole leaning tower thing I am sure they also tried to use as an embarrassing sign that their giant parking lot and drive-thrus would have been a better plan than what's happening now.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Yeah, they could have easily done more than this developer is doing because they have the Trammel Crow name but after losing the Sams' Club battle they needed to back away entirely. This property associated with that developer had a stench that was better solved by unloading the land to a developer they could blame inaction on the city and naysayers in the community. I guarantee Trammel Crow the development company is pointing at this development as a failure because it's not already sky-high and that their plan would have brought jobs and shopping to the city center blah blah blah. The whole leaning tower thing I am sure they also tried to use as an embarrassing sign that their giant parking lot and drive-thrus would have been a better plan than what's happening now.

Random question. And this is for everyone that wants to answer cause I obviously lack knowledge on this forum and this general industry. But with the knowledge everyone brings to this forum, I have a simple question. Based on gut feeling, or you jus flat out know or don’t know, do anyone on this forum thinks Dallas will build a 700’ plus skyscraper in the next decade? I just don’t know what to believe with all of these projects announced/proposed.

No. Not a chance.

eburress wrote:No. Not a chance.

I like how the field st development article was posted at the same time I asked the question. Odd

A 700’ tower is going to run into FAA height issues unless it’s downtown or perhaps near Victory Park. One proposed project is at the Jefferson at the North End site where an 80 story building is mentioned but don’t think they’ve submitted anything to the FAA. Highly doubt a 700’ tower would get approved there, so that leaves downtown. The proposed Rohr development (Ross and Route) has a 40 (?) story building, but not sure of the heighth…

If city hall and the mayor made it a priority and offered incentives to developers, then maybe so. It may take a developer from another city to do it. I don't have much faith in the Dallas developers.

I could see there being enough demand in the Uptown or Knox area (in the next decade) to justify a tower that tall, but it sounds like that area would be restricted on how tall they can build? Those are the only two areas I can think of that are already decently dense, have high demand, and not as much land to re-develop.

Perhaps we may see something in Victory Park that tall? I don't know what the long term plan for the AAC is, but if something newer gets built in another area and the existing stadium is razed, I could see this becoming quite the walkable neighborhood.

I have a good feeling anything over 921' will have to be in the direction of The Cedars in a straight line from BofA Plaza. Or, basically in the opposite direction of DAL. But, there could still be some "stray" exceptions specifically within the center city for something close to it, though, not as far away.

Update from WFAA

https://youtu.be/FmWabDf0Q9Q

“Next month start” is this for real, that will be the day.

Only the Streetlight tower will start next month. Actually a high probability of that one as they have a ~20 floor sweet spot that they rinse and repeat and have successfully pulled off in Dallas multiple times. Who knows about the remaining portions of the project.

Screenshot of the site plan from the video that marks the Phase 1 plan in green lower level. I am guessing he just needs that one office tenant to sign a lease to get the office and hotel tower pictured in Phase 1.