Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

I sort of feel like the Springs tower sucked all the air out of the room as far as new towers go. Having said that, even tho the vacancy numbers look bad overall pretty much everywhere, of all the towers out there old and new the newer towers (post 2010) are performing better than the old stuff. Dallas has a lot of old stuff so you'd think a smattering of new towers might be welcomed.

RodB wrote:This project was scheduled to start in May '23. Any news? Is it dead or is it on life support?

There were rumblings of some movement on this one about a few months ago, but then it went radio silent. I suspect they ran out of options to finance this tower at reasonable rates. Unless they have a pre-construction commitment to lease space, this will remain a rendering & bank drive-thru for the foreseeable future.

Bank of America to relocate workers into new Uptown tower overlooking Klyde Warren Park
The bank will leave Dallas’ tallest skyscraper for a new high-rise at the northwest corner of Harwood Street and Woodall Rodgers Freeway.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... rren-park/

Bank of America will be the lead tenant in the 30-story Parkside tower to be built by KDC and Pacific Elm Properties. The half-million-square-foot high-rise will be constructed at the northwest corner of Harwood Street and Woodall Rodgers Freeway.

Bank of America will occupy more than 238,000 square feet in the building, which is set to start construction before the end of the year.

I'm sure they got tired of walking past all of the homeless and vagrants around the building. This should be a wake up call for Downtown Inc. El Centro is also looking to move from that immediate area. Chick Fil A also moved a few blocks east.

This will be a great location for them.

RodB wrote:I'm sure they got tired of walking past all of the homeless and vagrants around the building. This should be a wake up call for Downtown Inc. El Centro is also looking to move from that immediate area. Chick Fil A also moved a few blocks east.

Very true; the problem is, Downtown Inc has been getting wake up calls for years and they keep hitting the snooze button.

Good for BofA, Good for KDC, and it's always nice to get a new building, but, wow, this will leave Bank of America Plaza with an occupancy rate of about 42%. The hollowing out of downtown continues.

This transaction will increase downtown's office availability rate by another 1.72 percentage points, from the current 35.3 to 37%. And especially when combined with the other 1.5 million square feet under development in Uptown (per the DMN article), will increase Uptown's office availability rate too.

Tucy wrote:

RodB wrote:I'm sure they got tired of walking past all of the homeless and vagrants around the building. This should be a wake up call for Downtown Inc. El Centro is also looking to move from that immediate area. Chick Fil A also moved a few blocks east.

Very true; the problem is, Downtown Inc has been getting wake up calls for years and they keep hitting the snooze button.

Good for BofA, Good for KDC, and it's always nice to get a new building, but, wow, this will leave Bank of America Plaza with an occupancy rate of about 42%. The hollowing out of downtown continues.

Downtown Dallas, at its core, is becoming a ghost town with the exception of the AT&T complex. The edges of the Downtown area seem to be where the most interest lies for any new buildings. The city has to put some effort into cleaning up the streets & reducing the threatening elements of criminal behavior. I have friends who quit riding DART due to the lack of security on the trains. This has to turn around or else the situation will decay even further.

Residential occupancy downtown is still high. If some forward thinking developers are able to get some steep discounts on some distressed properties and just not competing with high priced office space in general many more residential projects could pencil. Plenty of new office construction in the area in Uptown and new projects being added in Design District. I think there are plenty of people who will be working at Goldman Sachs or Frontier maybe moving from the coasts who would prefer living in Downtown and find it more familiar. Thrilled that this project looks like it's actually happening even if it's just shifting jobs over from one part of town to another.

Bank of America Plaza seems like it could be a decent candidate for residential conversion. It's unique shape means there's more window area than would be expected for the floor plate size. Example of what 1,100 and 1,700 square feet would look like: https://baplaza.com/floorplans/BOA_41st%20Floor.pdf

This stinks bad for downtown, it just keeps getting worse. This will now last much longer before anything is ever constructed of any significance.

DFW wrote:This stinks bad for downtown, it just keeps getting worse. This will now last much longer before anything is ever constructed of any significance.

Easy there buddy, don't get despondent, you know...

exelone31 wrote:

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Somehow the AMLI tower is still under construction and this new project is completed in the rendering lol

If that were the case I think that a good 50-60% of this forum would have self-immolated, myself included.

KWP is the gift that keeps on giving, and also a curse. Interesting to watch, and actually Uptown is having a really good run right now. Downtown, not so much. I think when I first came to Dallas the downtown vacancy rate was 40%, guess we are back there again.

thelivingworld wrote:Bank of America Plaza seems like it could be a decent candidate for residential conversion. It's unique shape means there's more window area than would be expected for the floor plate size. Example of what 1,100 and 1,700 square feet would look like: https://baplaza.com/floorplans/BOA_41st%20Floor.pdf

That’s what I was thinking as well. It would seem to be a unique selling point to offer apartments in the tallest tower in the city if they put them on the higher floors. Not sure how the separation of elevator traffic has been working in these office conversions.

Tnexster wrote:KWP is the gift that keeps on giving, and also a curse. Interesting to watch, and actually Uptown is having a really good run right now. Downtown, not so much. I think when I first came to Dallas the downtown vacancy rate was 40%, guess we are back there again.

Most cities are dealing with high office vacancy now though. Dallas has done a good job converting office space to other uses, I'm sure the current BOA building will find a new purpose. Meanwhile we get a new building along KWP!

Another hotel, on tap

thelivingworld wrote:Residential occupancy downtown is still high.

Source?

Bank of America is giving up a 20 story parking garage.

RodB wrote:Bank of America is giving up a 20 story parking garage.

I'd love for that surface lot there to be redeveloped into something that would activate that area of downtown. It needs a big shot in the arm.

Tucy wrote:

thelivingworld wrote:Residential occupancy downtown is still high.

Source?

It's called stating something which was generally accepted to be true in order to make a point or to develop an argument. It's obviously changing by the minute and might not be true tomorrow also depending on what the accepted definition of high occupancy would be which is why I did not provide a specific figure. Thank you for your contribution. Stay tuned for more.

I am fine with the migration over to Uptown for office space, all the while continuing to convert vacant office towers downtown into residential use. The more people that live in the downtown loop the more restaurants, retail and services can go in to be supported by those people. Downtown needs to be the go to urban living experience for the entire DFW metro region.

Downtown Dallas vs. Uptown: Bank of America move adds to across-the-highway migration
The bank’s departure from Main Street will leave more empty office space in downtown Dallas’ old financial district.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... migration/

Bank of America plans to move 1,000 people from its landmark tower on Main Street into a new tower to be built just north of downtown on Klyde Warren Park. The big bank will downsize from about a half million square feet of offices in Dallas’ tallest skyscraper to about 238,000 square feet in the new tower that will open in 2027.

“The robust performance of the Uptown Dallas market undeniably highlights its strength and validates the trend toward high-quality, walkable spaces over the last three years,” said Jihane Boury, vice chairman in the Dallas office of international real estate firm Savills. ”Many of our clients are relocating from their previous premises to secure fresh, appealing spaces that can attract and retain top talent and motivate employees to return to the office.”

Tnexster wrote:KWP is the gift that keeps on giving, and also a curse. Interesting to watch, and actually Uptown is having a really good run right now. Downtown, not so much. I think when I first came to Dallas the downtown vacancy rate was 40%, guess we are back there again.

We shouldn’t lament this BA move too much. Dallas is very fortunate to have such a robust market like Uptown and for Uptown to be so close to Downtown. With KWP development filling in the gap it’s becoming one big market - obviously with very preferential locations within.

thelivingworld wrote:

Tucy wrote:

thelivingworld wrote:Residential occupancy downtown is still high.

Source?

It's called stating something which was generally accepted to be true in order to make a point or to develop an argument. It's obviously changing by the minute and might not be true tomorrow also depending on what the accepted definition of high occupancy would be which is why I did not provide a specific figure. Thank you for your contribution. Stay tuned for more.

LOL So you have no idea. Thanks for playing. The problem with generally accepted truths for which nobody can offer evidence is that they are often nothing more than hopes and dreams, especially in dallasmetropolis-land.

Here is some actual information: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... are-built/

Let the big wedge from East Quarter to Union Station to SoGood regear as the downtown residential living space for people wanting to get a place downtown. The Dallas Fed is no longer in our historic financial district, so why do we wish for financiers to stay put there? We certainly have a new financial district.

Heck - Build the convention center between Park Lane Place and NorthPark. The Nashers could give the city a revenue sharing deal analogous to a Tax Increment Finance agreement so that any profit margin increases attributable to the public monopoly would be paid to the city's general fund. That alone will be paying for our first and also a second taxpayer funded Omni hotel in no time flat.

And Tucy, don't forget you're not the only guy who thinks logically around here, and the rest of us still exercise meekness in respecting people as well as factual reality. It's not a contradiction to think both are harmonizable, it's more a matter of what motivates playing in the first place. And dallasmetropolisland *is* a sandbox so brainstorming is encouraged -- I don't want you or him to bring receipts in order to see your sandcastles

If you want to see what works all you have to do is look at Uptown and if you want to see what doesn't work just look at downtown. It's abundantly clear since Uptown appears to attract business while downtown repels it. And on the issue of making it a hotel, how many hotels can downtown realistically sustain? There is nothing attractive about that area of downtown. Where would you rather work, LoMac or downtown?

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if both of these Miyama Towers get built because there is still enough business downtown that would leave for better digs.

Tucy wrote:LOL So you have no idea. Thanks for playing. The problem with generally accepted truths for which nobody can offer evidence is that they are often nothing more than hopes and dreams, especially in dallasmetropolis-land.

Here is some actual information: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... are-built/

I remember this article very well. However it's like you didn't even read the article. The entire tenor of the article is "But higher apartment vacancies downtown probably have as much to do with construction." Which is really besides the point as rising downtown apartment vacancies is not incompatible with the occupancy still being high especially in contrast to the high office vacancy rate. I'm not dying on any hill and am ready to fully accept any new factual information or insight anyone can provide and I do not believe what I was saying at all entirely hinges on this point.

thelivingworld wrote:

Tucy wrote:LOL So you have no idea. Thanks for playing. The problem with generally accepted truths for which nobody can offer evidence is that they are often nothing more than hopes and dreams, especially in dallasmetropolis-land.

Here is some actual information: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... are-built/

I remember this article very well. However it's like you didn't even read the article. The entire tenor of the article is "But higher apartment vacancies downtown probably have as much to do with construction." Which is really besides the point as rising downtown apartment vacancies is not incompatible with the occupancy still being high especially in contrast to the high office vacancy rate. I'm not dying on any hill and am ready to fully accept any new factual information or insight anyone can provide and I do not believe what I was saying at all entirely hinges on this point.

I did read the article. Whatever the reason for the situation (and of course Steve spins it to look as positive as possible), the article tells us that leased-up buildings built since 2019 have an occupancy rate of 90.1%, so the overall rate is almost certainly lower ( below 90%). Not bad, but I wouldn't call it particularly high.

Taking Steve’s writing at face value is a fool’s errand. Laughably, In support of his statement that the growing vacancy rate has been caused by supply, Steve links to his June 2023 article discussing the bunch of active and proposed residential conversions, none of which have entered the supply! In reality, I don't think there has been that much apartment supply added in the last couple years. As far as I can recall, nothing has been delivered this year. There's much more under construction/planned; it will be interesting to see what the occupancy rate looks like in a couple years.

TUCY IS A GUY?!?!

Tnexster wrote:And on the issue of making it a hotel, how many hotels can downtown realistically sustain? There is nothing attractive about that area

Just to clarify, that was alluding to using subsidies again to build a second NorthPark convention center Omni, part of my spitballing in which I treated the first try as a sunk cost and ignored it in pivoting away from downtown convention uses now that downtown is pivoting away from strictly business district. I was leaning into that situation as opposed to fighting it.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if both of these Miyama Towers get built because there is still enough business downtown that would leave for better digs.

Sure, but these neighborhood recyclings and falling into and out of fashion are a good problem to have according to no less an authority on what works than Jane Jacobs. She was thinking long term health and not only about immediate desirable effects on viability.

Cmacemm wrote:
TUCY IS A GUY?!?!


Ok yes ok where do I click to like and follow?

Cmacemm wrote:TUCY IS A GUY?!?!

You and your binary gender... So 20th century.

You don't put your pants on one leg at a time because you're strictly a man of the modren muumuu?

Tucy wrote:

Cmacemm wrote:TUCY IS A GUY?!?!

You and your binary gender... So 20th century.

Hahahahahahahahaha hahahahaha tucy is so fire

I mean, tucy is a vibe

I have my tucy days every once in a while, I'll admit.

I've begun to call him/her/they "red pen" because he/she/they are always correcting everybody else.

rono3849 wrote:I've begun to call him/her/they "red pen" because he/she/they are always correcting everybody else.

LOL It's easy to avoid being corrected. Don't post false information.

Tucy wrote:

thelivingworld wrote:

Tucy wrote:LOL So you have no idea. Thanks for playing. The problem with generally accepted truths for which nobody can offer evidence is that they are often nothing more than hopes and dreams, especially in dallasmetropolis-land.

Here is some actual information: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... are-built/

I remember this article very well. However it's like you didn't even read the article. The entire tenor of the article is "But higher apartment vacancies downtown probably have as much to do with construction." Which is really besides the point as rising downtown apartment vacancies is not incompatible with the occupancy still being high especially in contrast to the high office vacancy rate. I'm not dying on any hill and am ready to fully accept any new factual information or insight anyone can provide and I do not believe what I was saying at all entirely hinges on this point.

I did read the article. Whatever the reason for the situation (and of course Steve spins it to look as positive as possible), the article tells us that leased-up buildings built since 2019 have an occupancy rate of 90.1%, so the overall rate is almost certainly lower ( below 90%). Not bad, but I wouldn't call it particularly high.

Taking Steve’s writing at face value is a fool’s errand. Laughably, In support of his statement that the growing vacancy rate has been caused by supply, Steve links to his June 2023 article discussing the bunch of active and proposed residential conversions, none of which have entered the supply! In reality, I don't think there has been that much apartment supply added in the last couple years. As far as I can recall, nothing has been delivered this year. There's much more under construction/planned; it will be interesting to see what the occupancy rate looks like in a couple years.

Peridot (Santander Tower) has opened.

LPG wrote:

Tucy wrote:

thelivingworld wrote:I remember this article very well. However it's like you didn't even read the article. The entire tenor of the article is "But higher apartment vacancies downtown probably have as much to do with construction." Which is really besides the point as rising downtown apartment vacancies is not incompatible with the occupancy still being high especially in contrast to the high office vacancy rate. I'm not dying on any hill and am ready to fully accept any new factual information or insight anyone can provide and I do not believe what I was saying at all entirely hinges on this point.

I did read the article. Whatever the reason for the situation (and of course Steve spins it to look as positive as possible), the article tells us that leased-up buildings built since 2019 have an occupancy rate of 90.1%, so the overall rate is almost certainly lower ( below 90%). Not bad, but I wouldn't call it particularly high.

Taking Steve’s writing at face value is a fool’s errand. Laughably, In support of his statement that the growing vacancy rate has been caused by supply, Steve links to his June 2023 article discussing the bunch of active and proposed residential conversions, none of which have entered the supply! In reality, I don't think there has been that much apartment supply added in the last couple years. As far as I can recall, nothing has been delivered this year. There's much more under construction/planned; it will be interesting to see what the occupancy rate looks like in a couple years.

Peridot (Santander Tower) has opened.

Ah yes. I’d forgotten about that one. Thank you for that.

But to be clear, the climbing vacancy rate reported by Steve was not affected by Peridot because it is in lease-up, so not included.

I think a big part of this 'migration' is purely the age and quality of the buildings. A 50 year old building would not be able to compete with a brand new building. It is still almost the same or adjacent neighborhoods. Its a freaking 5 minute walk.
I am happy that the migration is a couple of minutes away and not to Legacy west for BOA.
Update the buildings and focus on street life and homelessness in DT and both neighborhoods will do fine.

I feel like New York and any big city has this problem. Large employers leave for newer fancier buildings in the CBD. That's ok, as long as buildings and real estate can adapt to those changes. I'd rather have this problem than businesses fleeing Dallas.

kingkong34 wrote:I feel like New York and any big city has this problem. Large employers leave for newer fancier buildings in the CBD. That's ok, as long as buildings and real estate can adapt to those changes. I'd rather have this problem than businesses fleeing Dallas.

Sure, most cities see a "flight to quality". But the difference in Dallas is that almost the new quality to which tenants are fleeing is not in the CBD. And fwiw, Dallas also has the problem of businesses fleeing the city (or at least trying to; see, for example, Neiman Marcus only staying in Dallas in exchange for a subsidy).

Just curious if it was ever stated how tall this new 30 ST will be?

DBadger wrote:I think a big part of this 'migration' is purely the age and quality of the buildings. A 50 year old building would not be able to compete with a brand new building. It is still almost the same or adjacent neighborhoods. Its a freaking 5 minute walk.
I am happy that the migration is a couple of minutes away and not to Legacy west for BOA.
Update the buildings and focus on street life and homelessness in DT and both neighborhoods will do fine.

Yeah, when Chase moved out of the old Texas Commerce Center on Ross in 2021 it was just a few blocks over onto Woodall Rodgers.
But the bigger problem was that back in 2016 their Farmers Branch campus office that relocated to Plano was already a million square feet that hadn't come back inside the core.

https://www.commercialsearch.com/news/j ... -official/

https://candysdirt.com/2016/01/11/jpmor ... est-plano/

rickbansal wrote:Just curious if it was ever stated how tall this new 30 ST will be?

They told the FAA that the topmost main roof levels would be 445' and 424' ... so it compares to Flora Lofts at 441'

They even re-applied to update with the FAA something like 15 points of various heights for the property, way more than usually necessary. The FAA is actually just fine with you telling them 4 corners are the same max height (and tell them about crane height and how many, red lights atop and so on) when a building proposal doesn't have much of anything to worry about in a particular urban context. It does make me wonder if their second phase planned might come sooner than later. I mean, wild-yet-reasonable guess, they don't blank the existing occupied site next door for phase two before phase one is built. Just a thought stir. They might get some traction on that second phase (if it remains a thing) during the next few years of building-out the first one, perhaps.

Unfortunately, the majority of flight of these newer office buildings is across a freeway. If the "newer" area and downtown were on the same side of the freeway, the downtown exodos wouldn't be as noticeable because the two areas could flow into each other. Klyde Warren helps a little by merging the two areas around the park, but it's definitely not enough.

Uptown isn't walkable anyway, but it's also peaking, too, and getting reasonably close to built out. That's 2 and a half strikes.

So it would be more interesting to see a giant garden pathways hill (like what is proposed for Harry Hines at Inwood) built over the interstates lying between downtown and the levee. That way the riverfront redevelopment that surges next will be able to boost the CBD redevelopment without a walkability barrier.

Looking at the floorplan for a typical Bank of America Tower floor, it seems to me that residential and hotel conversion might not be so difficult.
If anyone has floorplan design experience, please chime in if you disagree.
I could see the "thicker" western and southern portion of each floor being used for spacious residential units, and the "thinner" northeastern part beyond the elevator and stair banks being ideal for hotel rooms, or smaller residential units on all-residential floors.

Floorplan: https://baplaza.com/floorplans/BOA_19th%20Floor.pdf

The only challenging part would be the central room each floor tends to have, but that could possibly be used for utilities, amenities, rentable storage units, etc.

the jagged all-glass edges of the tower could lend well to some beautiful living spaces with 2 all-glass walls and views in two directions.

BoA is not moving into the new space until 2027 at the earliest, so the tower owners have time to decide on that space. It might not be such a bad idea to convert some of the current empty floors in this fashion now to test the market, and then expand into the BoA space later if successful.

Don't forget if you live here the tenets have access to a website where you can change the color and designs of the iconic lights!

MC_ScattCat wrote:Don't forget if you live here the tenets have access to a website where you can change the color and designs of the iconic lights!

Are those lights bright enough to be a negative for potential residents? Especially when they are rotating patterns.