Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Won't you have to cross two frontage roads and a loud underpass to reach the transit for this TOD?

I45Tex wrote:Won't you have to cross two frontage roads and a loud underpass to reach the transit for this TOD?

McKinney and Broom streets aren't really "frontage roads" at that point (Frontage road to me implies a mix of traffic entering/exiting the freeway at 45+ mph), just 25 mph city streets with stoplights and intersections that happen to be next to a freeway. Usually those roads are pretty quiet, and perfectly safe to cross on foot. Once there's a DART crossing to periodically stop car traffic in either direction, there's no reason to think 99% of people couldn't traverse the ~150-ish feet from the development to the Museum way station.

Bumping this up since it's been so long since there's been any discussion about this project here on the forum. Plenty of discussion regarding this over the past year or so on the Discord, so want to get you forum-only peeps talking.

I hope they get something started soon, rather see this than that Hillwood disaster across the street.

Tnexster wrote:I hope they get something started soon, rather see this than that Hillwood disaster across the street.

You and me both. KaiZen is leasing up a lot at The Link, which is good news. They're also close to wrapping up construction on the District 121 office building (9 stories in McKinney at SRT & Alma). I have faith in them overall but this is such a big (in terms of scale and importance) project and I pray they deliver and start sooner than later, and deliver what plans call for at that.

I wouldn't even hate Hillwood's gAteWaY iCoN as much if it weren't for the parking podium monstrosity, especially at such a prominent site. Wish they'd put some parking underground and add a few residential levels. Hell, I'd even be fine with more office floors if it were taller. But yeah, it's a disaster, and it's honestly pretty sad that they can't land tenants in pre-leasing. I bet they could land tenants if they started construction, but this whole waiting around thing doesn't work out well.

Same thing with Field Street District and KaiZen + Woods. I know they're calculated, but considering that Phase 1 calls for a 300-unit residential tower, a hotel tower, and an office tower, you'd think they could start something without the office component having an anchor tenant... Maybe the hold-up is D2 (thoughts?). Not sure...

Sigh.

Its capital, Woods just started the consolidation of two office towers Downtown to flip them into partial residential. I imagine Woods does not have the bandwidth to launch such a large project even in high demand residential and get the construction loans without more serious interest in the overall project. I am sure they could sell off a parcel for residential if they were satisfied with a Texas donut 4-5 story apartment complex but Woods rightfully so thinks this site should be a high-rise dense site so they are holding until they can line up the loans. Yes, they have a partner here but we don't know the entire story of the partnership. It may be in name only and not in help with financing unless an office tenantname comes along with serious interest.

Off topic.... but I am very happy to see owners continuing to re-purpose these buildings ( Bryan Tower, etc.) into residential or hotel use. Takes empty office space off the market and brings bodies Downtown. We have done a pretty good job of that in Dallas so far.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Its capital, Woods just started the consolidation of two office towers Downtown to flip them into partial residential. I imagine Woods does not have the bandwidth to launch such a large project even in high demand residential and get the construction loans without more serious interest in the overall project. I am sure they could sell off a parcel for residential if they were satisfied with a Texas donut 4-5 story apartment complex but Woods rightfully so thinks this site should be a high-rise dense site so they are holding until they can line up the loans. Yes, they have a partner here but we don't know the entire story of the partnership. It may be in name only and not in help with financing unless an office tenantname comes along with serious interest.

This development is a wild card. I think it will be hard to finance if Hunt breaks ground within 18 months just up the street. The only thing that might be built is a residential & hotel component of the proposed development. An office building is iffy. Just look at Harwood's reluctance to announce their much fabled #12 building that has not even been shown as a rendering. Harwood was on the verge of announcing it, then break ground in the Summer of 2020 just as the pandemic kicked in. Now, there's not a peep about their 40-story "tallest tower" in the Harwood Uptown District.

Museum way station is right by hunts project but not sure what a tunnel portal is by field st district…

How long does anyone think D2 will take to complete as it’s one of many factors for proposed and future development?

What do you mean by this?

zblevinz555 wrote:but not sure what a tunnel portal is by field st district…

undefinedprocess wrote:What do you mean by this?

zblevinz555 wrote:but not sure what a tunnel portal is by field st district…

If you look at the map’s key in the bottom right corner you’ll notice there’s a rectangular box labeled “tunnel portal” and it appears in the map there’s a tunnel portal at the field st district location. But I’m not sure what a tunnel portal is…

zblevinz555 wrote:

undefinedprocess wrote:What do you mean by this?

zblevinz555 wrote:but not sure what a tunnel portal is by field st district…

If you look at the map’s key in the bottom right corner you’ll notice there’s a rectangular box labeled “tunnel portal” and it appears in the map there’s a tunnel portal at the field st district location. But I’m not sure what a tunnel portal is…

It means that's where the train would go into/out of the subterranean tunnel

You see the dart train coming out of the tunnel? That’s what they mean

Has the actual height of this development ever been established? It's hard to determine by the renderings, but I'm guessing that the two largest towers must be 40 to 45 stories. Some where in the neighborhood of the AMLI Fountain Place Tower's 45-stories. Would that be correct?

Nice to see they're proposing adding a wye by Victory to add even more flexibility.

I was in Amsterdam last weekend and struck by how their metro system is very similar to DART in that much of it flows through one central bit, but they have lots of "lines" from flagging each combination of termini as a different color.

rono3849 wrote:Has the actual height of this development ever been established? It's hard to determine by the renderings, but I'm guessing that the two largest towers must be 40 to 45 stories. Some where in the neighborhood of the AMLI Fountain Place Tower's 45-stories. Would that be correct?

No, there hasn't been an official height/floor-count established. I've looked through their marketing materials, too, and haven't been able to find anything, but then again, that was late 2020/early 2021.

PonyUp13 wrote:Nice to see they're proposing adding a wye by Victory to add even more flexibility.

I was in Amsterdam last weekend and struck by how their metro system is very similar to DART in that much of it flows through one central bit, but they have lots of "lines" from flagging each combination of termini as a different color.

Amsterdams metro isn't that extensive. Their tram system is great though.

Dallas wouldn't need a huge system if there was just something you could hop on and off of more easily outside of downtown.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:

PonyUp13 wrote:Nice to see they're proposing adding a wye by Victory to add even more flexibility.

I was in Amsterdam last weekend and struck by how their metro system is very similar to DART in that much of it flows through one central bit, but they have lots of "lines" from flagging each combination of termini as a different color.

Amsterdams metro isn't that extensive. Their tram system is great though.

I know it's not extensive - I live in London theirs is a baby compared to ours - but I like the way they make it legible to people and how they've interlined it well such that it looks like they've got more than they do.

https://images.app.goo.gl/5xX8v8C7szPrsR86A

When I lived in the West Village I was always struck by the inability to go on a single train to Deep Ellum

Got bored and found this online. I’ve never seen these renderings before.

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/1100-Mc ... /22884791/

Wow, very nice. You'd make a great detective. It appears the tallest tower is about the same height as the AMLI Tower across the street. The second tower is a shade shorter. I guess the leftover parking lots are for future expansion. I wonder if they'll proceed with the Recession looming? Timing is everything.

rono3849 wrote:Wow, very nice. You'd make a great detective. It appears the tallest tower is about the same height as the AMLI Tower across the street. The second tower is a shade shorter. I guess the leftover parking lots are for future expansion. I wonder if they'll proceed with the Recession looming? Timing is everything.

Lol it looks like they took the link down.

I know one of the buildings was listed to be 28 stories with 700,000+ sq ft of space. I also seen this on Reddit from the Dallas Chamber. Field St is suppose to start this year. IDK if it’s happening as planned. https://www.dallaschamber.org/wp-conten ... ojects.pdf

Looks like a lot of info that was previously on multiple CRE sites has been trimmed down/removed altogether. CBRE's site for this project is now blank.

Not making me feel good...

undefinedprocess wrote:Looks like a lot of info that was previously on multiple CRE sites has been trimmed down/removed altogether. CBRE's site for this project is now blank.

Not making me feel good...

I presume they were taking a shot with Goldman and didn’t win. Can’t imagine doing something this big with the impending downturn and no anchor tenant.

ArtVandelay wrote:

undefinedprocess wrote:Looks like a lot of info that was previously on multiple CRE sites has been trimmed down/removed altogether. CBRE's site for this project is now blank.

Not making me feel good...

I presume they were taking a shot with Goldman and didn’t win. Can’t imagine doing something this big with the impending downturn and no anchor tenant.

I suspect you're right.

The theme with most of these proposed projects downtown and even Uptown (not to mention the Valley View site) is that the developers want to hold out for this elusive big corporate tenant that will never come.

It's quite annoying.

The carry (carrying cost of the financing) on this acreage purchased from the previously planned Indian cultural center and museum has got to be in the millions/yr, but that's low compared to the carry on an empty new building competing with Uber's available-for-sublease never-been-used space at Epic. And Deep Ellum is more appealing than it ever was to a certain slice of the firms that have always pre-COVID looked only at Uptown.

^sure would be nice to see the cool seeking tech firms 'discover' the areas south and east of Fair Park,

undefinedprocess wrote:Looks like a lot of info that was previously on multiple CRE sites has been trimmed down/removed altogether. CBRE's site for this project is now blank.

Not making me feel good...

The Recession will put a chill on all developments in the pipeline. The situation does not look promising for the next couple of years to say the least. If they haven't broken ground yet, I suspect the building will be on hold.

https://res.cloudinary.com/marketsphere ... ulvmei.pdf

I’m assuming this is the updated version. Idk if I like it
better than the original renderings. Both renderings are a waste of time for such a high profile site. Sad

I'm sorry you are crestfallen but this is just a way of de-risking the first phase. Originally Phase 1 was to be three high-rises and the following phase would bring the total to five high-rises. Source below.

Now phase one is a structure providing amenities to two towers, phase two is one tower, and additional towers will be planned when demand (supported by the walkable retail spaces) warrants replacing the walkable retail spaces. Seems responsible to me.

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... in-dallas/

I45Tex wrote:I'm sorry you are crestfallen but this is just a way of de-risking the first phase. Originally Phase 1 was to be three high-rises and the following phase would bring the total to five high-rises. Source below.

Now phase one is a structure providing amenities to two towers, phase two is one tower, and additional towers will be planned when demand (supported by the walkable retail spaces) warrants replacing the walkable retail spaces. Seems responsible to me.

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2 ... in-dallas/

That’s how I view it too. I love the idea of more walkable retail space, we need more of that Downtown. I see The Rustic listed in the site plans.

zblevinz555 wrote:https://res.cloudinary.com/marketsphere/image/upload/dqcgljbr9khytnulvmei.pdf

I’m assuming this is the updated version. Idk if I like it
better than the original renderings. Both renderings are a waste of time for such a high profile site. Sad

One thing I can say, it’s not as bad as Goldman so far lol.

This article was the one that described the initial phase as planned pre-COVID:

https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estat ... partments/

dallaz wrote:

zblevinz555 wrote:https://res.cloudinary.com/marketsphere/image/upload/dqcgljbr9khytnulvmei.pdf

I’m assuming this is the updated version. Idk if I like it
better than the original renderings. Both renderings are a waste of time for such a high profile site. Sad

One thing I can say, it’s not as bad as Goldman so far lol.

Agree. This on paper is much better looking than the planned Hunt (Goldman) development.

dallaz wrote:

zblevinz555 wrote:https://res.cloudinary.com/marketsphere/image/upload/dqcgljbr9khytnulvmei.pdf

I’m assuming this is the updated version. Idk if I like it
better than the original renderings. Both renderings are a waste of time for such a high profile site. Sad

One thing I can say, it’s not as bad as Goldman so far lol.

It's pretty sad that is now the standard.

Pretty sure the other news story here is The Rustic is moving from West Village due to something developing in the existing lot. It's too close to the WV location for anything other than relocation.

^^ hahaha that's what I thought too.

Addison wrote:

dallaz wrote:

zblevinz555 wrote:https://res.cloudinary.com/marketsphere/image/upload/dqcgljbr9khytnulvmei.pdf

I’m assuming this is the updated version. Idk if I like it
better than the original renderings. Both renderings are a waste of time for such a high profile site. Sad

One thing I can say, it’s not as bad as Goldman so far lol.

It's pretty sad that is now the standard.

It is…but ATP I don’t expect much from Dallas developers. I don’t think we’re getting any signature towers/developments anytime soon. Basically a continuation of Uptown/Victory Park. Which I’m not totally mad at, cuz we do need the additional infill.

Maybe developments like this will make more architecturally interesting buildings more possible in the future…?

Frankly, I don't see this development breaking ground anytime soon. This is mere speculation without any commitment from a company to lease space in the office building. They are all about the size of an Uptown office tower. These could have been major towers, but sadly they aren't.

Saw a truck that takes soil samples but no one was there, I suppose due to the weather conditions. Also noticed other holes in the ground of the parking lot near the abandoned truck. I took pictures with my iPhone but don’t know how to post them here.

I went to KaiZen's web site and noticed a new rendering for their Field Street District development. Have they decided on this one now?

It looks a lot less like Miyama Parkside’s design than it has till now. Good update find. Thank you.

Now it looks like a Harwood office-on-a-garage tower lol

I'll take anything at this point. lol

R1070 wrote:I'll take anything at this point. lol

Right

That parking lot is ugly as hell. Any development there is an upgrade

dallaz wrote:

R1070 wrote:I'll take anything at this point. lol

Right

That parking lot is ugly as hell. Any development there is an upgrade

I think the newer renderings have been downscaled to accommodate the current marketplace, but if they get a commitment, perhaps they'll upgrade their plans. It is much more modest to say the least. I can't tell if it is two towers or just one tower. They appear to be 30 to 35-stories tall.

What a waste

It's ok, it'll change again next year! : D

...to the point that it'll end up as a CVS!

Because, I guess another bank branch is out of the question. : D