Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Posted: **25 Apr 2021 12:33**

Matt777 wrote:
Warrior2020 wrote:https://www.centraltrack.com/demolition-is-underway-at-deep-ellum-venue-the-door/

Why? For what? Could they have at least saved the facades? What exactly is going in here since the article only mentions a "mini mall?"

So many questions. This is really puzzling and unexpected.

That article was missing so much information, its no wonder why it is puzzling.
I have no idea how any editor let that get published without any reference pictures.
Unless it was written on purpose that way to gin up Save DEep Ellum Outrage.
And like any other media company, CentralTrack likes to ride waves of outrage to profits.
Alas, I wont speculate too much, CentralTrack puts out alot of good content.

Questions? Answers: This forum, lots of good info on old posts
https://images1.loopnet.com/d2/XXSstYg2 ... cument.pdf
2513 Main where the Door was, is part of a greater Westdale Development on elm called Good E.
The front face of it on Elm was mentioned a few posts ago, the backside is on main.

Screen Shot 2021-04-25 at 12.09.55 PM.png

2513 Main will be replaced by an outdoor/indoor patio seen below in beige, upper left and right.
The developments on Main will work with the ones on Elm connecting to a remodeled Prophet bar, kind of like how chills 360 on Main forms an alley to Elm, or Dot's Hop house courtyard is outdoorsy but indoorsy. I suppose they could have kept the facade, but the replacement doesnt look too out of place.

Screen Shot 2021-04-25 at 12.09.08 PM.png

Posted: **25 Apr 2021 13:18**

I trust that they will do quality work for the greater benefit of the neighborhood.

Posted: **25 Apr 2021 20:57**

Yes, very puzzling given the lengths they went to to save the Pittman and the investment they are making in the Elm Street block.

Posted: **26 Apr 2021 22:11**

willyk wrote:Yes, very puzzling given the lengths they went to to save the Pittman...

Only because they were threatened with legal consequences if they let it deteriorate any further, and then awarded $2 millions in historic preservation tax credits to construct the new building adjacent to it.

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/comm ... -building/

Posted: **28 Apr 2021 02:57**

Formerly Shuttered Punch Bowl Social Reopens in Deep Ellum

https://dallas.eater.com/22403745/punch ... -reopening

Posted: **28 Apr 2021 07:35**

I thought it reopened months ago. Maybe I just imagined that?

Posted: **28 Apr 2021 09:12**

Great news! I had heard they closed again in Dec, and was worried they wouldn't recover. This is such a big space, that I'd hate for it to sit vacant for so long, so I hope they do well now that they are re-opening again.

Posted: **19 May 2021 12:30**

Can anyone post any updated renderings of the Epic 2? It looks like they may have modified the building. There seems to be a cut out at the top.

Posted: **19 May 2021 13:41**

dd_dweller wrote:Can anyone post any updated renderings of the Epic 2? It looks like they may have modified the building. There seems to be a cut out at the top.

I don't know that there are any changes, but obviously could be wrong. No changes on KDC's site.

Side note though... Imagine if Epic II got a rooftop observation deck... Open-air. THAT would be incredible. Just dreaming, ignore me.

Posted: **19 May 2021 14:57**

dd_dweller wrote:Can anyone post any updated renderings of the Epic 2? It looks like they may have modified the building. There seems to be a cut out at the top.

I see what you are saying, good question. Maybe they took the air taxi landing off the top since that seems less likely now. Or, maybe it's just incomplete but it does look different.

Posted: **19 May 2021 15:45**

Tnexster wrote:
dd_dweller wrote:Can anyone post any updated renderings of the Epic 2? It looks like they may have modified the building. There seems to be a cut out at the top.

I see what you are saying, good question. Maybe they took the air taxi landing off the top since that seems less likely now. Or, maybe it's just incomplete but it does look different.

Hmm. I'm looking at the KDC webcam and I think I see what y'all are saying, but maybe it is just a weird look due to it still being under construction.

Kinda hope they kept the air taxi bit, I liked the look of it, and despite Uber selling that segment of the company, I still would love to see the technology become reality some day.

Posted: **19 May 2021 16:57**

I think they should keep the overhang taxi part, but leave the bottom transparent glass!
It would make an awesome observation deck, like the Grand Canyon Skywalk or Chicago Skydeck @ Willis Tower
Of course, the building wouldnt be as tall. But it would be a novelty in this part of the country!

Posted: **19 May 2021 17:03**

I have been assuming the current cut out look is because they will have to construct support for the overhang differently than the usual floor supports.

Posted: **19 May 2021 23:51**

quixomniac wrote:I think they should keep the overhang taxi part, but leave the bottom transparent glass!
It would make an awesome observation deck, like the Grand Canyon Skywalk or Chicago Skydeck @ Willis Tower
Of course, the building wouldnt be as tall. But it would be a novelty in this part of the country!

Agreed. Could be converted to a “skyport” in the future, or they could build a skyport on top of it. Views from this spot are incredible and would definitely be great for public access.

Posted: **20 May 2021 09:25**

I strongly believe the reason the building looks odd right now is due to its construction of the overhang taxi.

The renderings on the KDC website clearly still show this part of the building, so I think we should be good. Time will tell, and we will know shortly!

KDC:
https://kdc.com/our-work/uber-epic-deep-ellum-phase-ii

Webcam:
https://app.oxblue.com/open/kdc/epicproject

Posted: **21 May 2021 09:57**

Dallas Comedy House to reopen as Dallas Comedy Club.

PaperCity article here: https://www.papercitymag.com/culture/dallas-comedy-club-ian-rosie-caruth/

Posted: **31 May 2021 19:53**

Westdale demolished 2513 Main today... the backside of the Good E Development.

Posted: **31 May 2021 23:26**

BigD5349 wrote:Westdale demolished 2513 Main today... the backside of the Good E Development.

The rendering in this article shows new construction behind or above the Elm St. buildings. I can’t really figure out how they relate to each other, but I assume the demo was to make room for that. Maybe someone in the Forum can dig up more details.

F5421AA7-79A9-492C-9BD0-72580FA20846.jpeg

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ghborhood/

Posted: **01 Jun 2021 19:55**

^The Main Street frontage is shown on the rendering posted by quixomniac (top of this page, at least on my computer)

Posted: **02 Jun 2021 01:53**

BigD5349 wrote:^The Main Street frontage is shown on the rendering posted by quixomniac (top of this page, at least on my computer)

Excellent. Thanks BigD5349.

Does anyone know if those renders are showing a new pedestrian walk way between Main and Elm? Or is that only a patio?

Posted: **02 Jun 2021 08:24**

According to https://theretailconnection.net/propert ... dallas-tx/ the Main Street side is available for a ground lease. So anything involving Main Street would appear to be TBD.

Posted: **02 Jun 2021 12:18**

^Ah crap, you're right. I went back in my photo archive to look at a picture of the old Gypsy Tea Room (GTR) frontage on Main (before it was painted black). What we are seeing in those renderings above is the now demolished building facade of the old GTR, the building flourishes match the rendering exactly.

Pisses me off to see any Deep Ellum building torn down, I hope this doesn't turn in to a surface parking lot.

Posted: **02 Jun 2021 12:48**

BigD5349 wrote:^Ah crap, you're right. I went back in my photo archive to look at a picture of the old Gypsy Tea Room (GTR) frontage on Main (before it was painted black). What we are seeing in those renderings above is the now demolished building facade of the old GTR, the building flourishes match the rendering exactly.

Pisses me off to see any Deep Ellum building torn down, I hope this doesn't turn in to a surface parking lot.

Oh don’t be so worried. It will be a nondescript, beige box CVS with a surface parking lot. Not just a surface parking lot.

Posted: **02 Jun 2021 22:21**

Here’s a link with renderings and more info on the Good E site.

https://theretailconnection.net/wp-cont ... 6.1.20.pdf

Posted: **03 Jun 2021 03:57**

Is all of the Main St. block gone or just 2513?

And I thought this was an historic district where things can’t be torn down anymore. Wrong?

Posted: **03 Jun 2021 09:19**

alkilo wrote:Here’s a link with renderings and more info on the Good E site.

https://theretailconnection.net/wp-cont ... 6.1.20.pdf

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like the rooftop of Good E would be a perfect place for some outdoor, rooftop public space? Not necessarily rooftop restaurants or bars, but just nice, accessible space up top for the public to utilize.

Would love to see it.

Posted: **03 Jun 2021 10:47**

undefinedprocess wrote:
alkilo wrote:Here’s a link with renderings and more info on the Good E site.

https://theretailconnection.net/wp-cont ... 6.1.20.pdf

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like the rooftop of Good E would be a perfect place for some outdoor, rooftop public space? Not necessarily rooftop restaurants or bars, but just nice, accessible space up top for the public to utilize.

Would love to see it.

That's actually a fantastic idea! After recently visiting the Discovery District, I was just recently thinking how great it would be to have some sort of park/plaza in Deep Ellum for people to centrally gather. This rooftop idea would serve as just that!

Posted: **03 Jun 2021 11:30**

potatocoins wrote:That's actually a fantastic idea! After recently visiting the Discovery District, I was just recently thinking how great it would be to have some sort of park/plaza in Deep Ellum for people to centrally gather. This rooftop idea would serve as just that!

https://www.centraltrack.com/deep-ellum ... rian-park/

Posted: **03 Jun 2021 12:05**

Thanks for sharing! I actually attended one of the events where they shut down the street temporarily to pedestrians and had booths and stuff for people to frequent, I just didn't know anything was actually going to come of it.

I don't see any more recent updates on this development. I'd really love to see it happen, I think it would be very positive for the area and it's in a great location.

Posted: **03 Jun 2021 13:46**

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
potatocoins wrote:That's actually a fantastic idea! After recently visiting the Discovery District, I was just recently thinking how great it would be to have some sort of park/plaza in Deep Ellum for people to centrally gather. This rooftop idea would serve as just that!

https://www.centraltrack.com/deep-ellum ... rian-park/

Wow, hadn't seen that before. Really hope that happens, and somehow, Westdale puts a rooftop component (solely public space) on Good E.

Closing down that section of Crowdus would be great IMO, especially if (probably when at this point) The Assembly comes to fruition. Which speaking of The Assembly, I've seen a few Sterling Bay ads on Instagram as of late. Granted, I follow them, but they've been creating brand new ads on social media over the past month for it. Maybe that means they're gearing up to start construction..?

Posted: **14 Jun 2021 04:14**

A High-Tech London Shuffleboard Bar Will Open Its First U.S. Location in Deep Ellum

A high-tech new gaming bar from London will open its first stateside location in Dallas’s very own Deep Ellum.

Electric Shuffle will open at 2615 Elm Street, a rep for the company confirmed. A timeline for the opening has not been set, but the business has already filed permits with the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission

https://dallas.eater.com/2021/6/8/22524 ... lum-london

This looks like fun. I like when bars with things to do mix in alongside places that more purely for drinking.

Location looks to be near Stone Deck, but I am unsure of whether it fronts in Elm

Posted: **14 Jun 2021 09:23**

On the one hand, I really dislike how homogenous cities are becoming but I think it's huge that this particular establishment chose Deep Ellum of all the places in the US as their first location.

Posted: **14 Jun 2021 13:10**

Dallas police department needs a new strategy that will allow Deep Ellum to become a free spirited party destination like the French Quarter while keeping tourists and excursionist safe from getting mugged.

Keep the partiers safe and make sure they can get home without driving.

There's no reason Deep Ellum cannot become a destination that draws from the whole continent.

Posted: **14 Jun 2021 15:17**

tamtagon wrote:Dallas police department needs a new strategy that will allow Deep Ellum to become a free spirited party destination like the French Quarter while keeping tourists and excursionist safe from getting mugged.

Keep the partiers safe and make sure they can get home without driving.

There's no reason Deep Ellum cannot become a destination that draws from the whole continent.

Unfortunately this is the city that single handedly killed the OU / Texas pre game festivities on Main street downtown. I don't think the powers that be would allow a French Quarter style scene to occur there. I agree however that we should and make it a national /international scene. Who knows maybe they will get out of the way and not mess it up.

Posted: **14 Jun 2021 15:54**

The city's modus operandi when it comes to problems in Deep Ellum is to just ignore them as long as possible, and hope they go away.

When that doesn't happen and the press starts reporting on them, then the city goes to Plan B: Go after the folks who are complaining (i.e. paying customers) and drive them away.

Posted: **14 Jun 2021 21:52**

Yeah the gaybourhood has been a drunken mess for decades now but because its gay the Dallas police don't seem to over manage it. Its not Deep Ellum in the number of bars but it is a mess almost every single weekend including S4 which absorbs the after 2 am drunk crowd since they are open till 4am. It seems like Dallas police just only knows two speeds with bars/entertainment areas. Non-existent presence or over respond and send in the Calvary and charge over the hill and strike down anyone that looks at them drunkenly. Cities like Austin and New Orleans who are known for their night life have police too what do they do differently.

Posted: **08 Jul 2021 10:28**

Speaking of two speed enforcement.
The new code compliance officers are going overboard.
Noise complaint fines in Deep Ellum?!!!!!!

Y’all make sure to sign the petition
https://www.change.org/p/dallas-city-co ... p-ellum-tx
The City Wants a Quieter Deep Ellum, but Local Businesses Are Pushing Back

The Uptowning of Deep Ellum is becoming more rapid since the Dallas Code Compliance Services Department began cracking down on noise. Businesses in the area are now sounding the alarm on harsher noise ordinance enforcement that’s resulted in threats of up to $2,000 fines.

https://www.dallasobserver.com/music/lo ... m-12049284

Posted: **08 Jul 2021 10:59**

Here is starts again in Deep Ellum. The repetitive cycles in Deep Ellum are so predictable.

Dead > Rebuilding > crazy busy nightlife > people complain > city/police start cracking down > crowds stop coming and business start closing > dead again. Rinse repeat.

Posted: **08 Jul 2021 11:09**

People need to talk to the city council about this. The city needs to handle this delicately or we have a dead neighborhood on our hands again.

Posted: **08 Jul 2021 16:12**

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Here is starts again in Deep Ellum. The repetitive cycles in Deep Ellum are so predictable.

Dead > Rebuilding > crazy busy nightlife > people complain > city/police start cracking down > crowds stop coming and business start closing > dead again. Rinse repeat.

I wasn't living here at the time but I thought Deep Ellum died last time because it had become so murdery and people didn't want to risk getting shot/raped/stabbed/etc.

Posted: **08 Jul 2021 23:37**

It’s a shakedown.

Posted: **04 Aug 2021 22:25**

Instead of shouting into the echo chamber of a forum,
Why not write down your concerns about Deep Ellum, Dart D2, I345, transportation in general in this survey!
Productive Angst for the win

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... Q/viewform

Posted: **05 Aug 2021 11:30**

eburress wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:Here is starts again in Deep Ellum. The repetitive cycles in Deep Ellum are so predictable.

Dead > Rebuilding > crazy busy nightlife > people complain > city/police start cracking down > crowds stop coming and business start closing > dead again. Rinse repeat.

I wasn't living here at the time but I thought Deep Ellum died last time because it had become so murdery and people didn't want to risk getting shot/raped/stabbed/etc.

Yes it was a popular place to get drunk last time so the criminal element showed up to rob from people not paying attention and catch people unawares. The criminal element shows up when there is plenty of people to steal from and a lack of safety is in place. Each time its a variation on the previous time. Each cycle the city cracks down on some element to blame like last time they started cracking down on nightclubs cause they were attracting all types of customers that would act a fool.
Most of the places now that are problematic are bars that straddle the border between club/bar/restaurant. Nightclubs aren't really the it place to be anymore by the current generation but bar/restaurants that get wild at night are. When you get too many of these types of places the area becomes dense with night life and the day life gets strangled out aka retail, actual restaurants, neighborhood service businesses etc. Also new non bar restaurants/shops wont open because they read the bad headlines. Those non bar businesses come into work after a Saturday night and the windows are broken or there is a drunk throw up piled at their front door. So those places run off to places like Bishop Arts or a strip center where there isn't a wild night life element to deal with. So then you are left with only bars and a mess the city cracks down on cause its honestly all the city knows how to do. So the city starts police and over regulation and we are left with empty commercial spaces and empty paid parking lots.

Course then you have places like 6th street in Austin which is all bars and the street is closed to cars with police keeping an eye on things and you are left to wonder how does Austin do it but Dallas keeps yoyoing on this entertainment district thing. 6th street doesn't have the resident element we have now either. 6th Street doesn't appear to have the deeply rooted neighborhood advocates that Deep Ellum does. This forum has a few here who chime in. I assume 6th street has mainly businesses that are used to being a nightlife centered area so the coordination and cooperation with the city is a bit different. There are people who have lived in Deep Ellum for decades and seen each cycle rise and fall.

Posted: **05 Aug 2021 11:43**

I've wondered about 6th street as well. They definitely do a much better job of policing the area.

Based on what I see in the news, it does seem like there has been more crime there these days, so perhaps 6th used to work so well because Austin was a small college city. Now that it's grown significantly and is likely seeing way more tourists come to the 6th street area, perhaps they may also struggle with dealing with crime? Anytime I visit Austin now, it seems like the friends I know moved on to Rainey St and now have moved on to the East Side when they go out.

Regarding Deep Ellum, I'm not really sure the same cycle will repeat. This time around, we are seeing more office/residential development. I really hope they can keep the party going, but do so in a way that people feel safe.

Posted: **05 Aug 2021 12:15**

^all things I have heard from my Austin friends as well. I also agree that the residential and office elements we have seen now will vastly change the landscape. Office tenants and new rental residential tenants are likely to majorly play a role in telling the city what they do and don't want for the area vs the past lack of those elements.

Sorry for my soap boxing up there but watching the rise and fall of Deep Ellum from my perspective as a outsider I will admit has been fascinating since I started paying attention back in High School.

Posted: **05 Aug 2021 13:11**

I agree, it's definitely fascinating. I remember going to Deep Ellum in the early 2000s when I was still in high school, so to see the change in nightlife in Dallas has been fascinating.

I'd really hate to see this cycle persist though. I don't think Lower Greenville really made sense for an entertainment district (at least not a big one), and I don't think Uptown really makes sense any more either, but Deep Ellum seems like the perfect place to house Dallas's nightlife and I really hope we can find a way to keep it growing while keeping it safe.

It'll be interesting to see what happens now that all these club-type venues are opening up further north closer to Bottled Blonde. With the amount of places there and the ones on the way, it seems like several bar owners are extremely confident this will be the next new hot spot.

Posted: **18 Aug 2021 14:08**

I drove through Deep Ellum this past Sunday around 1pm and the place was bustling! I really hope things continue on this trajectory and it becomes a safe and popular destination for people to hang out.

Posted: **18 Aug 2021 15:41**

potatocoins wrote:I drove through Deep Ellum this past Sunday around 1pm and the place was bustling! I really hope things continue on this trajectory and it becomes a safe and popular destination for people to hang out.

It's popular now. It's pretty safe.

Posted: **18 Aug 2021 15:56**

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that it was not currently popular and safe, just that I hope it continues to grow in popularity and continues to be safe as well.

Posted: **20 Aug 2021 12:34**

88763B5B-A6DA-453C-B776-31771951F3F1.jpg

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