Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

In some happy restaurant opening news, famed Nashville hot chicken restaurant, Hattie B's, is coming to 3000 Main Street (Deep Ellum) in late Summer 2021. The rumors of Deep Ellum's death are greatly overexaggerated.

https://www.wfaa.com/article/life/food/ ... 3211f44152

More Deep Ellum dining news...https://www.dmagazine.com/food-drink/20 ... bar-oasis/

The updated plans for the city's efforts to devastate Deep Ellum by converting Elm and Commerce to two-way operation:

https://dallastxgov-my.sharepoint.com/: ... w?e=iwxPjh

I know most of the folks here think this is a great idea. But are you going to want to visit, work in or live in a neighborhood where it takes 20 minutes to drive three blocks, stuck behind a garbage truck or beer bike stopping every 50 feet or moving at 3 MPH? Or sit in total gridlock when some combination of Uber drivers, delivery trucks, buses, emergency vehicles, mail trucks and/or food delivery pickup park across from each other, totally blocking the street for 10 or 20 minutes? None of those are going away. Are your clients or friends going to want to visit when they have to pay $5 to park three blocks away because the city has removed two-thirds of the already limited on-street parking?

For those that are into such things, there are a couple interesting details in the plans. The old streetcar tracks are apparently still there under the middle of Commerce. And between Walton and Hall you can see the actual location of the Mill Creek Culvert, which I've alway wondered about. It's a little bit west of where I thought it was.

Too bad Mill Creek wasn't brought back. More than anything else, that would have made East Dallas a better place to live.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:The updated plans for the city's efforts to devastate Deep Ellum by converting Elm and Commerce to two-way operation:

https://dallastxgov-my.sharepoint.com/: ... w?e=iwxPjh

I know most of the folks here think this is a great idea. But are you going to want to visit, work in or live in a neighborhood where it takes 20 minutes to drive three blocks, stuck behind a garbage truck or beer bike stopping every 50 feet or moving at 3 MPH? Or sit in total gridlock when some combination of Uber drivers, delivery trucks, buses, emergency vehicles, mail trucks and/or food delivery pickup park across from each other, totally blocking the street for 10 or 20 minutes? None of those are going away. Are your clients or friends going to want to visit when they have to pay $5 to park three blocks away because the city has removed two-thirds of the already limited on-street parking?

For those that are into such things, there are a couple interesting details in the plans. The old streetcar tracks are apparently still there under the middle of Commerce. And between Walton and Hall you can see the actual location of the Mill Creek Culvert, which I've alway wondered about. It's a little bit west of where I thought it was.

Kinda like Bishop Arts, once it become too difficult to get in and out and expensive to park I just won't go.

And yet bishop arts is now more lively, occupied, and visited than it has ever been

homeworld1031tx wrote:And yet bishop arts is now more lively, occupied, and visited than it has ever been

Plus, Bishop Arts has actually grown as new stores & restaurants have been built along Bishop Avenue, while high rise apartment buildings are also being built adjacent to the shopping district.
I think Deep Ellum has to find a way to address the night crime in the area. It will take an increase in security & police visibility in the area, but that takes money, which is not easily obtainable in these COVID-19 depressed economic times.

Police presence is more of a concern in Deep Ellum than street configurations.

Tnexster wrote:Kinda like Bishop Arts, once it become too difficult to get in and out and expensive to park I just won't go.

Isn't that the end goal for any kind of urban community with good fabric? It becomes a destination for the people in close proximity as opposed to a stay-cation spot for people who live in Plano/etc.

Seems like there is plenty of capacity available to shift the commuter traffic to Canton, Gaston, Live Oak and Ross.

Yes, that’s true. The street grid through there has enough capacity to route thru traffic around the EMC streets.

Mr. Amsterdam wrote:
Isn't that the end goal for any kind of urban community with good fabric? It becomes a destination for the people in close proximity as opposed to a stay-cation spot for people who live in Plano/etc.

This right there.

The problem is of course that not how business owners think. Particularly all the restaurant/night clubs that have opened in the Deep Ellum area are focused on being a destination business that all they want is a large parking lot and lots of customers begging to get inside including large access roads so people can come from miles around. Entertainment Districts are famous for this desire. Notice how Bishop Arts only mildly went down that path. They didn't fill up with bar/clubs and isn't dominated by a huge night life scene. I would love to take a survey of the Bishop Arts customer and see how many are long distance visits and how many are locals. What types of customers are visiting Bishop Arts on a Friday compared to somewhere like Deep Ellum or even Cedar Springs where the gay bars in the past have been busy without much need for babysitting. Every time Deep Ellum develops even a mildly attractive night time scene it explodes into a bigger than manageable and the DPD has to come in and scare the whole scene away and then all those bars/club move somewhere else. I worked in Deep Ellum after the last night life crash when it was a ghost town again. Now it seems better than before but still stuck in the crazy drunk nightlife pattern. Uptown/McKinney got the same bug and now many think its a ghost town now that everything moved to Deep Ellum.

Commuter traffic isn't really an issue. Most of it already uses Canton, Live Oak and Gaston. And the "tourists" from the suburbs can fend for themselves. For them, going to Deep Ellum is an experience like going to a ball game or Six Flags -- you wait in line for 20 minutes to pay $10 to park.

The folks being hurt by this are those who already live and work here.

And due to the number of residential units going up the number of potential advocates is increasing and that makes it a more stable neighborhood. The more roof tops the more potential advocates for something more than a bar/club neighborhood. Of course not all apartment people are gonna care but that's why you create organizations that create that sense of community. Whether its something like the Downtown Residents Council or something like Uptown Dallas or a neighborhood association and you have to encourage membership. I'm sure the long established advocates of Deep Ellum don't want new voices changing the tune but in the long run it will help balance the scales away from the endless bar/club cycle its been going through for most of my life on this earth.

Which leads to a question for anyone who can answer the Deep Ellum Foundation what do they do and does that org allow membership from just residents or is it just property owners.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Which leads to a question for anyone who can answer the Deep Ellum Foundation what do they do and does that org allow membership from just residents or is it just property owners.

The DEF board is dominated by the large property owners like Westdale, 42 and Madison.

https://www.deepellum-foundation.org/who-we-are

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Which leads to a question for anyone who can answer the Deep Ellum Foundation what do they do and does that org allow membership from just residents or is it just property owners.

The DEF board is dominated by the large property owners like Westdale, 42 and Madison.

https://www.deepellum-foundation.org/who-we-are

Which is very important to note. We need more residential activism and I know you are more aware of it Hannibal than I am cause ultimately I don't live down there. Neighborhood Associations can be annoying to many but I am in favor for more engagement than none at all and just having developers interests met is not good enough.

Honestly, I have always thought that what was attracting people to the new residential in DE was proximity and walkability to the bars and restaurants.

That said, something that would help would with stability would be daytime stores, breakfast joints, soft goods stores and other retail that services the locals.

We’ve got a new Tom Thumb coming. That’s a great start.

Is the Patagonia store still coming along? “... it’s a light, bright 6,500-square-foot space we’re renovating to carry a beautiful selection of quality clothing and gear for the whole family. As with all our stores, however, it’s not just about commerce. We see it as a part of the community that will also serve as a venue for a regular calendar of events (think films, fun runs, yoga classes, presentations, etc.),.. https://www.patagonia.com/patagonia-dallas-2626-main-dallas-texas-75226/store_Patagonia-Dallas.html

And what is going into the redone buildings on Elm across from the Pittman? Hoping for some daytime stuff to support the Pittman, Epic and East Quarter crowds.

If DE could become something more like the French Quarter and less like Sixth Street, that would be a victory...Cafe Du Monde would be a nice fit. https://shop.cafedumonde.com/

willyk wrote:Honestly, I have always thought that what was attracting people to the new residential in DE was proximity and walkability to the bars and restaurants.

That attracts a lot of people to live here. But relatively few people who live here work here, and few people who work here live here. It's a high-rent neighborhood with mostly low wage jobs. People still need to get in and out of the neighborhood.

When friends come to visit you at home do they have to park 2-3 blocks away and pay $5 to park?

Hannibal Lecter wrote:When friends come to visit you at home do they have to park 2-3 blocks away and pay $5 to park?

If only they were so lucky.

Not sure if this one was mentioned before in this thread or slipped-in somewhere else, nevertheless here's something new to me:

The Willow/Commerce St. Flats (or, whatever they want to call it)
http://larkspurcapital.com/projects/com ... reet-flats
http://larkspurcapital.com/news/now-lea ... -warehouse

Ran across it after finding this:
https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2021002277

http://larkspurcapital.com/uploads/proj ... .14-AM.png

Coincidentally, someone else was doing Monday homework also, haha:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ail-space/

That's new to me. So great to see these midsized apartments starting to pepper East Dallas. I've never really thought of this immediate area as Deep Ellum or Expo Park.... Will be totally interesting to see what happens when I-30 is sunk and a park goes over to reconnect the area.

Nice find! I really like that building!

tamtagon wrote:That's new to me. So great to see these midsized apartments starting to pepper East Dallas. I've never really thought of this immediate area as Deep Ellum or Expo Park.... Will be totally interesting to see what happens when I-30 is sunk and a park goes over to reconnect the area.

Is a deck park right there a certainty? There's been talk, for sure, but I didn't realize that was a definite plan.

Its still very much a big IF the deck park near there.

We need more smaller buildings like this in Dallas market. The 100-200 unit complex makes for stronger communities plus the amenities driven luxury market balances out a bit more. The sweet spot seems to be around 125-150 units. If you wanna eliminate the amenities and overall make for a even tighter sense of community in one building you go even smaller like Larkspurs smaller project at 50-75 units. You wont have a 7 days a week leasing staff on site but it can def help bring the cost of rent down cause then most likely leasing would be handled by a offsite team that covers more than one building. Packages go in a services like Fetch/Amazon Lockers and you can still offer some light amenities like maybe a community room and/or decent pool.

DPatel304 wrote:Cru Hemp Lounge, which was founded in Atlanta a decade ago by businessman and reality-show hanger-on Dennis McKinley, plans to open a location in Deep Ellum in December 2021.
https://dallas.eater.com/2020/10/15/215 ... a-williams

Beloved Ohio shop Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams is finally moving to Dallas, with its first shop in North Texas landing in Deep Ellum.
https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... eep-ellum/

New businesses mean jobs which are badly needed right now, but I kind of wish all of these non-Dallas chains would locate in other neighborhoods instead of Deep Ellum. Deep Ellum is becoming carpetbagger central. Jeni's, Cheba Hut, Gus', Punch Bowl, others are all going to take a direct hit on our local flavor places. And let's never forget Franklin's of Austin which deliberately tried to destroy a Dallas institution (Dallas Comedy House) so they could get a primo DE spot. I will never step foot in that place.

Jeni's would have been better for Uptown, IMHO.

Matt777 wrote:

DPatel304 wrote:Cru Hemp Lounge, which was founded in Atlanta a decade ago by businessman and reality-show hanger-on Dennis McKinley, plans to open a location in Deep Ellum in December 2021.
https://dallas.eater.com/2020/10/15/215 ... a-williams

Beloved Ohio shop Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams is finally moving to Dallas, with its first shop in North Texas landing in Deep Ellum.
https://www.dallasnews.com/food/restaur ... eep-ellum/

New businesses mean jobs which are badly needed right now, but I kind of wish all of these non-Dallas chains would locate in other neighborhoods instead of Deep Ellum. Deep Ellum is becoming carpetbagger central. Jeni's, Cheba Hut, Gus', Punch Bowl, others are all going to take a direct hit on our local flavor places. And let's never forget Franklin's of Austin which deliberately tried to destroy a Dallas institution (Dallas Comedy House) so they could get a primo DE spot. I will never step foot in that place.

Jeni's would have been better for Uptown, IMHO.

It’s Terry Black’s Barbecue, not Aaron Franklin, that evicted Dallas Comedy House.
____
ETA: I’ll never step foot in there either.

Hoping that a tightening DE market sends some adventurous retail and restaurant operators to the East Quarter, Farmers Market and Ross Ave.

Never heard of her, but I have heard of Laguna beach. Looks like she has 4.1 million followers on Instagram, and about 40 of my friends are following her too.

Happy to see Deep Ellum getting some good publicity yet again!

Deep ellum really starting to get its momentum back i feel like with the new tom thumb, places like whiskey hachet, thunderbird, cheba hut, gus chicken, basic taco, elm & good, and expanded serious pizza all reopening this month... plus patagonia, warstic and harpers in the pittman building are getting close..

now you have annoucements like hattie b's, this wine bar, uncommon james retail store, jeni's ice cream coming in 2021..

clcrash19 wrote:Deep ellum really starting to get its momentum back i feel like with the new tom thumb, places like whiskey hachet, thunderbird, cheba hut, gus chicken, basic taco, elm & good, and expanded serious pizza all reopening this month... plus patagonia, warstic and harpers in the pittman building are getting close..

now you have annoucements like hattie b's, this wine bar, uncommon james retail store, jeni's ice cream coming in 2021..

Agreed! Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see another decent sized corporate relocation to this area within the next year. Deep Ellum is on fire, and I'm sure it's become very attractive for prospective companies.

Looks like a restaurant space may go in at 2820 Commerce late next year after renovations, potentially called EllumEx.
https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2021004185

Tnexster wrote:First look: New office block on the way in Dallas’ Deep Ellum district
Sterling Bay’s planned office and retail building is next to DART’s rail station

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... -district/

Not really much of a follow-up, just went to verify this project might still appear around the interwebz. It still does, for now.
https://www.sterlingbay.com/property/assembly
https://shopcompanies.com/sites/default ... 1604507442

CTroyMathis wrote:Looks like a restaurant space may go in at 2820 Commerce late next year after renovations, potentially called EllumEx.
https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2021004185

I believe that's the old Bay Leaf space. One of my two favorite restaurants in DE twenty years ago. In the unlikely event they haven't totally gutted it since then it's a really great space for a restaurant.

Complete interior demolition & finish out with some shell building modifications for a new one-story restaurant user in an existing one-story building.

It used to have a second floor dining area overlooking the main floor. Sounds like that's gone.

CTroyMathis wrote:Looks like a restaurant space may go in at 2820 Commerce late next year after renovations, potentially called EllumEx.
https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2021004185

The spot is earmarked for Federales per the flyer on the Shop and Co website. The original Federales is in Fulton Market in Chicago. The bar is from 4 Corners, a hospitality group based out of Chicago, which just so happens to have the financial backing of Sterling Bay, the developers of ‘The Assembly’. Also, plenty of coverage of 4C wanting to take the Federales brand national dating back to ‘18. No clue how accurate, or recent, the Shop and Co flyer is, though.

https://shopcompanies.com/sites/default ... 1604507442

Yes, I sent all that to the news so they can do the rest of the same digging we both apparently did. I saw all the connections as well. However, I don't know if they will use the Federales name or go with a new name here. The shop flyer was updated this month, supposedly. The tenant name on the TX file page is related to both FC and SB, the rabbit hole goes from there, haha!

Progress update on "Good E.". I hate the name, but I really think this development will help add a bit more cohesiveness between Deep Ellum and the East Quarter.

Two nightlife concepts are coming to an area near Dallas' Deep Ellum that's shaping up to be pretty nightlifey.

They're called The Sporting Club and BLÜM at the Sporting Club and they're going into a 22,000-square-foot space that used to be a garage and storage at 2516 Florence St., near the intersection of Live Oak Street and Good Latimer Freeway.

The team will also be opening another club a block away: Called Vice Park, it'll be a "lively Latin-influenced nightclub," located at 2601 Gaston Ave., where it's set to open in winter 2021.

https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/rest ... eep-ellum/

Uptown 2.0 is here

The wildest stuff is all centered around this DART section of Good Latimer where they would need to build out some serious DART stuff for D2 making the area very convoluted with a big T intersection for DART lines. I wonder if over time once D2 starts if this club stuff will fade out on its own. I just don't see Uptown 2.0 lasting just like it didn't in Uptown either.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:The wildest stuff is all centered around this DART section of Good Latimer where they would need to build out some serious DART stuff for D2 making the area very convoluted with a big T intersection for DART lines. I wonder if over time once D2 starts if this club stuff will fade out on its own. I just don't see Uptown 2.0 lasting just like it didn't in Uptown either.

In addition to all the D2 changes, you also have Uber setting up shop here along with a luxury high-rise and hotel. I agree, I think the nightlife here will be short-lived and a lot of these lots will be replaced with more luxury high-rises, just like what happened with Uptown (but likely in a much shorter timespan).

Not sure this tidbit has been mentioned here:

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2021008849


https://costplusdrugs.com/

They've been working out of that building for awhile, but keeping a very low profile.

I didn't really pay attention to it at the time, but driving by the building today there was a new construction trailer-type building on the parking lot across the street. Looks like they're getting started.

https://markcubancompanies.com/companie ... ceuticals/

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/mark-cu ... ug-prices/

And this popped up on the DMN website within the last hour:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ent ... eep-ellum/

Are the people who oppose putting a QuickTrip on Lemmon in Uptown, also opposed to a putting a drug manufacturing plant on a pretty darn good multi-purpose site in Deep Ellum?

willyk wrote:Are the people who oppose putting a QuickTrip on Lemmon in Uptown, also opposed to a putting a drug manufacturing plant on a pretty darn good multi-purpose site in Deep Ellum?

I am not sure a gas station in Uptown on Cole Ave is a perfect corollary to rehabbing a building in Deep Ellum, but I have no qualms.

Can you help me understand how the two are related?

To be honest, I'm kind of opposed to both the gas station and the drug manufacturing plant...that being said, I'm more opposed to the gas station than the plant.

willyk wrote:Are the people who oppose putting a QuickTrip on Lemmon in Uptown, also opposed to a putting a drug manufacturing plant on a pretty darn good multi-purpose site in Deep Ellum?

The gas station idea I hate; but I'm ok with this they're just rehabbing a building. And bringing a nice new venture to town.