Deep Ellum: Hines Project - 2700 Commerce

[Kelley USA]

I don't ever recall seeing this project... Saw this today on the Shop Companies website (Hines Deep Ellum). Not sure how old it is.

https://shopcompanies.com/properties/hines-deep-ellum

[I45Tex]

Good find, thank you. The bottom RH corner of the PDF last page had an 11-2-2015, if that was really the date.

If built as pictured it would be better visually than most of the buildings in the similar West Loop / Fulton Market construction boom (an older CBD-adjacent warehouse district) in Chicago right now:

https://chicago.curbed.com/maps/west-lo ... evelopment

[jetnd87]

Many of the establishments named in the PDF brochure are <18 months old (e.g. Backyard), so wouldn't seem to be a dead project. This would replace the surface parking lot next to Angry Dog and Bomb Factory? I always hated that lot.

Where do we think this one stands?

[CTroyMathis]

I wouldn't worry too much about the date in the doc at the end. The same doc with same date is at the end of the 2000 Ross *.pdf file also.

Also, I webarchive roulette(d) shopcos properties folder and found nothing old regarding this location - although I really bounced around between 2014 to present. Yet, the write-up seems a little dated in one spot. Who knows. This might be one that was shelved for another day and brought back.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Crap. Will definitely screw up my sunsets.

One of the existing retailers listed, Cookie Shop, has only been open 2-3 months. Vidorra is about six months old. So I would say this is very recently done.

IMG_20170205_181209040_HDR.jpg

[jetnd87]

Say what you will about Dallas' natural beauty, but we have a hell of a sky

[homeworld1031tx]

I know this is going to be a bit of an unpopular opinion on the forum, but IMO we're rapidly approaching the point at which the city is going to have to build a public parking garage in the area if the retail developments want to continue to get the same volume of out of the neighborhood traffic that they're receiving right now.

[CTroyMathis]

Hannibal is right, I looked again at the thing I thought was wrong and it is correct. This does seem very new indeed and a good find.

Over/under this is in the biz section in 7 days.

[DPatel304]

I know this is going to be a bit of an unpopular opinion on the forum, but IMO we're rapidly approaching the point at which the city is going to have to build a public parking garage in the area if the retail developments want to continue to get the same volume of out of the neighborhood traffic that they're receiving right now.

Is the lack of parking really an issue? I'm sure on the weekends there isn't nearly enough parking, but people seem to be fine taking an Uber to the area.

I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but that really makes me wonder if Deep Ellum's success would have been possible without the rise of ride-sharing apps.

[jetnd87]

DPatel304 - you're spot on. So much of Dallas was unlocked - at least from a dinner / night-life perspective - with the arrival of Uber. Our taxi ecosystem is atrocious on just about every dimension. So you had three real options: drive drunk, drive and not drink, or go through the annoyance of ordering taxis, in which case you usually picked one spot that you felt pretty good about spending the entire evening.

Can't speak for other cities, but I struggle to conceptualize a city whose night-life was more unlocked and enabled by ride-sharing than Dallas.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I know this is going to be a bit of an unpopular opinion on the forum, but IMO we're rapidly approaching the point at which the city is going to have to build a public parking garage in the area if the retail developments want to continue to get the same volume of out of the neighborhood traffic that they're receiving right now.

I think that's a bad idea. You're just gonna funnel more cars to the area that way. A better idea IMO is doing a complete streets make over of the surrounding area. Improve the sidewalks and parking on the side. Let the people walk to EMC corridor; liven up the streets too.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

DPatel304 - you're spot on. So much of Dallas was unlocked - at least from a dinner / night-life perspective - with the arrival of Uber. Our taxi ecosystem is atrocious on just about every dimension. So you had three real options: drive drunk, drive and not drink, or go through the annoyance of ordering taxis, in which case you usually picked one spot that you felt pretty good about spending the entire evening.

Can't speak for other cities, but I struggle to conceptualize a city whose night-life was more unlocked and enabled by ride-sharing than Dallas.

Nah, that applies everywhere in Americas car dependant cities

[itsjrd1964]

If this happens, it will definitely spice things up on Commerce, for sure. And, will put quite the crimp/cramp on parking availability for events at the Bomb Factory and Canton Hall.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

If this happens, it will definitely spice things up on Commerce, for sure. And, will put quite the crimp/cramp on parking availability for events at the Bomb Factory and Canton Hall.

It's says it will have parking and then lists bomb factory, pecan lodge...etc..

On page 2.

At worst, parking will be the same. But I worry that this will just exacerbates the problem. You're gonna have 1 garage and people funneling in and out of it for concerts / restaurants.

[tamtagon]

There's nothing wrong with public parking garages as long as they're placed appropriately. Suburban visitors to Deep Ellum are now and will become even more important so pay parking garages between highway exit and entrance ramps make the most sense. Renovating I-30 and I-345 will remove the ludicrous "undesirable neighborhood containment" design that ironically nurtured this part of town while allowing travelers and commuters to get in or around the CBD all the while protecting the nice neighborhoods from minorities.... anyway, I-345 will ideally be renovated into a master boulevard and access road for the CBD and East Dallas.

Central to I-45 thru-lanes can be kept while the two downtown street grids are reunited. A significant volume of public parking garages strategic for commuting office workers as well as commuting entertainment seekers are: structural components of the thru-lanes of the highway, physical separation and the entrance that insulates the party district, the caretaker of the pedestrian environment since people will park here and begin the walk through the area. What was one a terrible mistake of design, the car-oriented juggernaut of I-345 is converted into a park and walk.

[muncien]

DPatel304 - you're spot on. So much of Dallas was unlocked - at least from a dinner / night-life perspective - with the arrival of Uber. Our taxi ecosystem is atrocious on just about every dimension. So you had three real options: drive drunk, drive and not drink, or go through the annoyance of ordering taxis, in which case you usually picked one spot that you felt pretty good about spending the entire evening.

Can't speak for other cities, but I struggle to conceptualize a city whose night-life was more unlocked and enabled by ride-sharing than Dallas.

Nah, that applies everywhere in Americas car dependant cities

Yeah, totally. Some had it worse! Los Angeles for instance didn't even allow curbside pickup (hailing) of a cab. You literally had to call ahead and wait for a specific cab to come and get you. When I moved to Downtown Dallas from LA a dozen years ago, it blew my mind that I was finally able to 'hail' a cab. Now, we are leaps and bounds beyond that. I realize that sometimes it may feel that 'change' takes forever, but reality is much different.
I really wish that Deep Ellum will not cater to today's automobile demands. Ten years from now, we will be scratching our heads at the thought of all the garages we built ten years earlier.

[tamtagon]

... I realize that sometimes it may feel that 'change' takes forever, but reality is much different.
I really wish that Deep Ellum will not cater to today's automobile demands. Ten years from now, we will be scratching our heads at the thought of all the garages we built ten years earlier.

The response from entrenched taxi industry was less than weak, too! Seems like everywhere the taxi bosses and municipal decision makers were up to their eyeballs in payola that app-based ride sharing walked right in and took over, any initial resistance disappeared.

We'll still need garage space, even if half the folks in the suburbs get into some sort of carpooling or multiple passenger ridesharing. The current push to double parking for the fortress towers downtown is the real head scratcher to me. As long as the new garages are being built with re-purposing in mind, we're fine.

[jetnd87]

Totally agree with the repurposing point. That plus pedestrian-friendly sidewalks and street-level retail.

[Cbdallas]

Several dense cities around the world have already started re-purposing parking garages into living and work space. I don't see why we can't do that here in the future as self driving, transit and other services take away the desire to have an individual vehicle to get around that sits idle for most of the day.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I'm going on a bit of a tangent here, but that really makes me wonder if Deep Ellum's success would have been possible without the rise of ride-sharing apps.

The area still isn't as busy as it was in 2001-2003. Not even close. So it was/is definitely possible without ridesharing.

[DPatel304]

The area still isn't as busy as it was in 2001-2003. Not even close. So it was/is definitely possible without ridesharing.

I'm actually surprised to hear this, but I stand corrected. I went a couple times back then, but honeslty can't remember how busy it was (I was a Plano resident still in high school back then).

[jetnd87]

So what's different with this resurgence of Deep Ellum? The residential?

[Tnexster]

Nice to see that more potential residential projects are on the horizon. DE seems to be firing on all cylinders right now.

[joshua.dodd]

I wish the aesthetics on the top half of this building would match the bottom half.

[Kelley USA]

Over/under this is in the biz section in 7 days.

You nailed it... Exactly 7 Days!!

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/bus ... ce-project

[DPatel304]

So it turns out this is a commercial tower?

Seems like office towers are better for the nightlife areas, as these buildings will be mostly empty come Fri/Sat night, so no complaints from them.

[muncien]

One floor of retail, five floors of garage, and six floors of office. One good thing about it being office is that this should satisfy some of the demand for nightly parking as I am sure they can make some $ after the workers head out. This may actually open the door for some other projects to kick off. Remember that Deep Ellum has a 'shared' parking ratio for the area... unlike almost all other areas of Dallas.

[cowboyeagle05]

Sad that they won't bury any of the parking then. If they buried even half of the parking the project wouldn't seem so incompatible with the neighborhood but this tower seems just too tall. The cost and build time schedule will change drastically if they do so.

[jsoto3]

Urban Design Peer Review Panel presentation with more renderings, elevations and floor plans:
https://dallascityhall.com/departments/ ... ummary.pdf

[jetnd87]

Very cool! Love the illustrations and thought behind the sidewalks and increasing/protecting the pedestrian experience.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I just don't like the box on top. It's odd looking to me

[I45Tex]

Sad that they won't bury any of the parking then. If they buried even half of the parking the project wouldn't seem so incompatible with the neighborhood but this tower seems just too tall. The cost and build time schedule will change drastically if they do so.

A building that takes longer to open at this point in the cycle has a significantly greater downside risk. Anyone who was still willing to place that bet would need there to be a bigger upside potential too, but you also don't want an even taller building. It reminds me of Deep Ellum's attitude towards D2 in Deep Ellum --

"Y'all really really should make it a full subway tunnel instead of a surface alignment, okay, but remember, we just want five times more cost-intensive bona fide center-city infra, don't ask us to reciprocate that huge public investment with a new FAR allowance proportionately higher. We're not interested in the public recouping its investment that way like it would in a real center-city project." Or like Mockingbird Station would, as we see in the other thread we're discussing this week.

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/dee ... d2-8600323

The bottom line is that if a neighborhood where Deep Ellum is located doesn't look much taller in a metro of eight million than it did in a metro of two or four million, then you're living in a land where you make everyone else bend over backwards for you forever.

[Cbdallas]

I really don't understand the obsession with limiting height in the urban core of the city. We still need tons and tons of more density in the core and the only way to get it there is height. This is not just a Deep Ellum issue.

[Hannibal Lecter]

“We had to destroy the village in order to save it.”

(I'm hoping the irony isn't totally lost on those too young to remember the Vietnam War.)

[I45Tex]

For the effectively historic district there to be kept intact for its contributing aesthetic quality (aka getting to play by a special set of rules designed to save it for cultural inheritance)...

If the public gets to levy a sliding tax rate in Deep Ellum that moves upward to absorb all ownership value gains from property there, then that's a policy decision. If they don't, then that's a taking from the public by a vested interest (Hannibal and Friends extracting a rent without reciprocating to those in outlying DART etc. jurisdictions). They shouldn't be asked to pay to save it if the pockets it goes into are yours.

[tamtagon]

hqdefault.jpg

[joshua.dodd]

I really don't understand the obsession with limiting height in the urban core of the city. We still need tons and tons of more density in the core and the only way to get it there is height. This is not just a Deep Ellum issue.

What we really need is a viable public transit system--not DART--that will make high density in this area pragmatic and logistically sound. Streetcars are the best and cheapest solution to connect Deep Ellum and the surrounding neighborhoods. A subway system would be ideal (NOT DART TRAINS), but that's going to take decades to engineer and finance.

[joshua.dodd]

I just don't like the box on top. It's odd looking to me

I agree. The box on top is not harmonious with the bottom portion of the structure. The bottom half looks fantastic. Great architecture. Could use a little more classical ornamentation, but it works. The top half looks alien. Modern trashitecture...

[cowboyeagle05]

After seeing more renderings I have a problem with the back side. They set up these historical looking facdaes fronting Commerce but facing the Bomb Factory it becomes a sold color and looks like the back of a building. In an urban area when you are likely to be one of the few taller buildings break up the "back side" as well.

[Hannibal Lecter]

There might be a way of stopping this thing. From the Deep Ellum PD ordinance:

(c) Maximum building heights. Maximum permitted heights for buildings are:
(1) 150 feet for buildings having an FAR for residential uses of 1.0 or more; and
(2) 130 feet for all other buildings.

https://dallascityhall.com/departments/ ... ummary.pdf shows a height of 212 feet. So they would need the PD amended. That won't come easily.

[mdg109]

Yeah this one is really out of scale for this part of DE.

[cowboyeagle05]

I am not against development of this parking lot but yeah this one just seems a little massive in scale.

[DPatel304]

I am not against development of this parking lot but yeah this one just seems a little massive in scale.

Agreed. With that in mind, is it even worth it for developers to re-develop parking lots in Deep Ellum? We don't want a bunch of mid/high-rises to replace the surface parking, but if the development isn't all that big, does it make financial sense? I'm just wondering, because there are still a lot of surface lots in Deep Ellum, and I would like to see them converted into something else eventually.

[Matt777]

I am not against development of this parking lot but yeah this one just seems a little massive in scale.

Agreed. With that in mind, is it even worth it for developers to re-develop parking lots in Deep Ellum? We don't want a bunch of mid/high-rises to replace the surface parking, but if the development isn't all that big, does it make financial sense? I'm just wondering, because there are still a lot of surface lots in Deep Ellum, and I would like to see them converted into something else eventually.

It would probably be very hard to make a 1-2 story development work financially on the empty parking lots. I would be cool with 1 story of retail/dining/bar, and 2-3 stories of boutique hotel or AirBnB units on top with zero parking. The hotel units can make it without parking, whereas residential or office would require it to be successful.

That being said, I don't mind a small handful of developments of the scale of 2700 Commerce, but I do dislike the massive parking garage. They hid it nicely, but dang, so much parking garage to look at.

[muncien]

Keep in mind that with the unique 'Neighborhood Parking' arrangement used to score Deep Ellum parking ratios, when you go to replace a parking lot with a structure, you not only have to meet your own developments parking needs, but you also have to replace those spots that were accounted for in the neighborhood parking ratios. So, if the lot had 50 spaces, and your building requires an additional 100 spaces, you have to build 150 spaces into your development.

[tamtagon]

I kinda like the look of it, the mix of styles isn't always my favorite, but whatev. I like that it seems too big for what's there now because what's there now is too small for the neighborhood.

[eburress]

I like the project, both its design and scale. I personally like the mix of styles but I get how it's not everybody's cup of tea.

[emmasensei]

I tend to like any project that activates the pedestrian experience, no matter what it looks like otherwise Bring it on!