Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Seeing as how they are right off the heart of the strip, I really hope they do a good job of mixing in with the existing tenants.

“We plan to have a 70-foot waterfall coming down the side of the building.”

I wonder if it would be possible to add some lighting to make this rainbow colored, that would really go a long way, IMO.

This would be awesome and finally create a base to support more restaurants in the area and some retail. The strip is finally entering the new coming height phase of development from the urban core.

I like it and it seems to keep those older buildings safe from someone else tearing them down.

The impending wave of development washing over Oak Lawn for at least the next generation hopefully will free the gayborhood from Caven's grasp. The LGBTQlmnop scene in Dallas should have a much larger footprint than a couple blocks. The concentration of clubs, bars and discotheques is great, historically significant, but guests shouldn't be able to walk the gamete in 15 minutes. From Maple to Lemmon and Wycliff to Turtle Creek Park, visitors should find half of the sidewalks dotted and lined with LGBTQlmnop friendly retail, performance venues, clubs, bars, restaurants, bar & grills, delis, bakeries, butchers, etc.... Open up the Crossroads, rezone targeted streets between the major thoroughfares and let the scene grow to what one would expect from a population center poised to take the number three spot from Chicago.

I think the biggest piece of news here is that Caven Enterprises actually sold some of their land. My understanding is that they have been a big part of why this area hasn't seen much developmeng lately and they have been very anti-development.

tamtagon wrote:The impending wave of development washing over Oak Lawn for at least the next generation hopefully will free the gayborhood from Caven's grasp. The LGBTQlmnop scene in Dallas should have a much larger footprint than a couple blocks. The concentration of clubs, bars and discotheques is great, historically significant, but guests shouldn't be able to walk the gamete in 15 minutes. From Maple to Lemmon and Wycliff to Turtle Creek Park, visitors should find half of the sidewalks dotted and lined with LGBTQlmnop friendly retail, performance venues, clubs, bars, restaurants, bar & grills, delis, bakeries, butchers, etc.... Open up the Crossroads, rezone targeted streets between the major thoroughfares and let the scene grow to what one would expect from a population center poised to take the number three spot from Chicago.

I agree the gayborhood should expand, however all the new restaurants along Maple make me unsure if that will be the trend going forward.

Gayborhoods are shrinking in most cities. We are lucky to still have a scene the size we do.

Sorry for double posting this development, I ended up finding some additional renderings and I felt like it warranted its own thread:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=925

R1070 wrote:Gayborhoods are shrinking in most cities. We are lucky to still have a scene the size we do.

The boundaries are certainly getting blurred as perceptions have changed, but the scene in Dallas has never had the contiguous geographic coverage it should have.

Matt777 wrote:Has anybody heard anything new about the Braniff hostess academy redevelopment at Wycliff and the DNT? I keep dreaming about a residential conversion (so I can live there) but last I heard it was going hotel and boutique office. Both of those real estate sectors are doing poorly, so I would think boutique residential might make more sense now due to COVID-19.

This one came back up today: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... hip-again/

CTroyMathis wrote:

Matt777 wrote:Has anybody heard anything new about the Braniff hostess academy redevelopment at Wycliff and the DNT? I keep dreaming about a residential conversion (so I can live there) but last I heard it was going hotel and boutique office. Both of those real estate sectors are doing poorly, so I would think boutique residential might make more sense now due to COVID-19.

This one came back up today: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... hip-again/

Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr

Hope something happens soon to this building. Frankly, it's an eyesore & looks like something you'd see in Newark or Detroit. How embarrassing for the city to see a decaying building in such a prominent location. If their deal falls through, this thing needs to be demolished.

Has anyone noticed how bad the facade of the Centrum is looking?
That update has not aged well and it's only been a few years?! wow

It was pretty weak redo when it was done. I expected more for such a building. Maybe someday someone will buy it and really refresh it all the way.

uptown74 wrote:Has anyone noticed how bad the facade of the Centrum is looking?
That update has not aged well and it's only been a few years?! wow

Considering the cheap and incredibly badly built apartment complexes that have been built with their stucco and slapped together facades, I would think that a lot of these buildings will look like trash in a few years.

Dallas Gypsy wrote:Considering the cheap and incredibly badly built apartment complexes that have been built with their stucco and slapped together facades, I would think that a lot of these buildings will look like trash in a few years.

I approve this message

Well according to someone close the Centrum the building it is pretty damn empty now. Supposedly Capitol Factory vacated and many other tenants have evaporated as well. Not because of the building itself but just COVID hasn't done well to this building. They are offering move in incentives to get any new tenants in cause its so empty. I haven't walked the hallways myself but its what someone else who has been inside has told me.

I would welcome corrections to this info as well. The Capitol Factory website doesn't list locations but I only found one mention of Dallas on their website for a event in DFW. Majority of the site is about Austin. I believe Capitol Factory took over management of the Dallas Entrepreneurial Center down in West End as well.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well according to someone close the Centrum the building it is pretty damn empty now. Supposedly Capitol Factory vacated and many other tenants have evaporated as well. Not because of the building itself but just COVID hasn't done well to this building. They are offering move in incentives to get any new tenants in cause its so empty. I haven't walked the hallways myself but its what someone else who has been inside has told me.

I would welcome corrections to this info as well. The Capitol Factory website doesn't list locations but I only found one mention of Dallas on their website for a event in DFW. Majority of the site is about Austin. I believe Capitol Factory took over management of the Dallas Entrepreneurial Center down in West End as well.

Supporting what you were told, Loopnet shows 18 spaces, about 40% of the building (159,414 sf available/400,372 sf total), available for lease.

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/3102-Oa ... X/8416356/

ETA: More corroboration for your info. Found this about Capital Factory: Closed the Dallas space in November.
https://dallasinnovates.com/capital-fac ... -chambers/

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well according to someone close the Centrum the building it is pretty damn empty now. Supposedly Capitol Factory vacated and many other tenants have evaporated as well. Not because of the building itself but just COVID hasn't done well to this building. They are offering move in incentives to get any new tenants in cause its so empty. I haven't walked the hallways myself but its what someone else who has been inside has told me.

I would welcome corrections to this info as well. The Capitol Factory website doesn't list locations but I only found one mention of Dallas on their website for a event in DFW. Majority of the site is about Austin. I believe Capitol Factory took over management of the Dallas Entrepreneurial Center down in West End as well.

Yep, the building is looking pretty vacant these days. Mudsmith and Pints & Quarters vacated sometime ago and Mille Lire shut down during COVID. As far as restaurants go, I think only Steel and Mattito's are left.

^The two that have been there for a long time already who have long standing customer bases. Those newer places were nice attempts at creating more ground floor interaction but they were implemented on a dead street with no pedestrian action already and even new street level parking spots could not save them. Facing Oak Lawn where there is existing visibility and people looking for places to eat sure but on the back side they had almost no chance. Even Mille Lire with no patio on Cedar Springs wasn't a workable option.

Union coffee shop has a walk up window across the street and people still seem to be in love with their approach to a coffee shop despite not having a place to sit inside due to Covid.

uptown74 wrote:Has anyone noticed how bad the facade of the Centrum is looking?
That update has not aged well and it's only been a few years?! wow

Cbdallas wrote:It was pretty weak redo when it was done. I expected more for such a building. Maybe someday someone will buy it and really refresh it all the way.

The original was a crazy, spectacular, angular 1980s post-modernish thing. The new owners that “updated“ seem not to have understood what they purchased. Many parts might have been better off left alone, imo. Personally, I miss the cello sculpture along the steps down to the fountain that isn’t there anymore.

Just before I saw your posts I rediscovered a snapshot I took on a walk around the neighborhood in 2014: The original Centrum façade is intact, minus the canvas canopies, and Mattito’s had built a prototype patio fence out of pallet wood.

As someone who lives in the neighborhood and walks by the centrum daily, I can tell you that the activity on Wellborn is not actually the issue. That stretch is actually very active. Pints and Quarts and Mudsmith had serious management issues. I had several bad experiences at both before I decided to stop going there. Bad product, bad service, snotty employees - the works. Union just does everything better, and because of that they have been quite busy during all of COVID. I know this because my wife and I own a gluten-free bakery and actually do the pastries for Union now.

Mille Lire never seemed to get very busy, but they were getting busier before COVID happened. The whole story was that one of the founding members died in a plane crash in Addison. Between that and COVID, they decided it wasn't worth the crazy amount of work. I read that in a news story...can't remember if it was the Dallas Morning News or not.

^Thanks for the insight I only made it into that Pints and Quarts once so my experience was limited with the service. I have been to Union two or three times and def found it nice but I am not a coffee shop guy so its not my wheelhouse.

... well, you used to be a coffee shop guy

Mudsmith and Pints & Quarts closed their Lower greenville locations prior to closing the locations at The Centrum, so it does seem like the location wasn't necessarily the issue.

There is a decent amount of office and residential in the immediate area, so I do think it is possible for something to be successful here.

Convert to hotel, would be better.

They should use the retail space for a Trader Joe’s or city Target concept.

R1070 wrote:They should use the retail space for a Trader Joe’s or city Target concept.

YEEEES! My wife and I have been saying for years that a TJ's or even Foxtrot would be perfect for the old Mudsmith/Pints and Quarts space. It's really too big of a spot for just a food-service concept. And the neighborhood would totally support a walkable market like that.Especially with the hundreds of additional residents coming with the Toll Brothers tower finishing up (Not to mention the Oden Hughes building right around the corner in the next year or so).

Trader Joe’s was supposed to open next to the Melrose, but plans changed when they decided to sell the building and the apartments are going there now. So there was an interest in the neighborhood. Something along those lines besides a restaurant would do well.

If HEB would just sell the land on Lemmon they had bought initially for a store...Trader Joes would more likely take that spot but then again HEB prob wouldn't sell for that reason alone.

The empty office space in the Centrum isn't really geared towards a hotel conversion not to mention no bank would lend for a hotel until after the market has returned. The tower part of the Centrum is mostly Condos the lower section s including some of the tower is the office portion not really setup well for that kind of change.

Oak Lawn needs other hotel options than the Melrose.

Well now in a relatively short distance we have a Marriot and Virgin hotel so the options are pretty good. Plus if the old airline's dormitory hotel project actually moves forward that's three. Considering Caven is selling itself off for residential high rises and Trammel Crow hasn't built a luxury boutique hotel as part of their development yet. Thank goodness they built that clock tower though now we will have something to set our pocket watches by though.

Is anyone curious as to how long it will take for Trammel to ask the city for a separate designation as Maple District? Will they try to include the other side of Maple up to Medical District Dr since its ripe for the next wave.

tamtagon wrote:... well, you used to be a coffee shop guy

I need to know this story.

tamtagon wrote:... well, you used to be a coffee shop guy

Some how I missed this accurate call out. I used to be the Assistant manager at a coffee shop in Downtown Dallas in Mosaic bldg aka Opening Bell Mosaic. The stories I could tell about the building, the business and the events we booked for our events space and the many stories I did tell on the forum back in the day. Lets summarize it this way. The owners knew nothing about food service they were used to retail businesses so many of the financial decisions they made killed the business faster than a lack of foot traffic did. Including ignoring health code after I left to save a buck where they could.

DPatel304 wrote:Yep, the building is looking pretty vacant these days. Mudsmith and Pints & Quarters vacated sometime ago and Mille Lire shut down during COVID. As far as restaurants go, I think only Steel and Mattito's are left.

I have friends that love Mattito's and I meet them there often. Every time I've gone there the last few months (always on Sunday) business seems to have lessened more each time. Last time I went, about three weeks ago, it was sparse the whole 2.5 hours I was there. I would hate to see this place go too.

vman wrote:

DPatel304 wrote:Yep, the building is looking pretty vacant these days. Mudsmith and Pints & Quarters vacated sometime ago and Mille Lire shut down during COVID. As far as restaurants go, I think only Steel and Mattito's are left.

I have friends that love Mattito's and I meet them there often. Every time I've gone there the last few months (always on Sunday) business seems to have lessened more each time. Last time I went, about three weeks ago, it was sparse the whole 2.5 hours I was there. I would hate to see this place go too.

Of all of the locations Mattito's has been this is my least favorite. I really liked the last one and even preferred the old Oak Lawn location before that over Centrum. This one seems like the least accessible to me.

tamtagon wrote:Convert to hotel, would be better.

This is actually a great idea to convert the office space and common areas to a hotel. It would be a great contemporary counter point to the Melrose and create more energy at the intersection.

DPatel304 wrote:

Ablon said the apartment towers would be built in phases with a total of 450 rental units. The tallest of the high-rises would be about 20 floors with retail on the lower floors facing a new public plaza along Throckmorton Street.

He said if everything works out, construction would start in mid-2022.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ngs-strip/


I am hearing from insiders that this project needs more support from people who live and own property in the neighborhood. If you are one of those people please contact the development office - Vicki Dodd 972-243-0650 and offer to sign a letter of support. They are going in front of zoning at the city I believe in a week.

If this does not get approved Caven will still have to sell and there will be no control over what a less considerate developer will build without any concern for the community.

Thank you, that is good to know! I'll be sure to reach out!

They did go to the bars to get signatures but I bet more than a scribbled beyond ability to read post many drinks. I haven't heard from the project since then. They could easily reach out on a few Facebook groups but Caven is terrible at PR and outreach. Most of their strategies include fire anyone that causes any news headlines and tell everyone else everything is fine. Since I have now lived nearby for 5 years I'll reach out.


In other news The Eagle the leather bar on Maple who has never reopened during the pandemic announced it would open in 2022 post pandemic and in a new building they have purchased 4 times as big as the current building. Makes me wonder with all the gay bars that have closed due to the financial strain and how CAVEN has been so strict about the rules if The Eagle is betting on a club activity boom post vaccines.

One of the reasons the 1920s we're called The Roaring 20s is because the world was recovering from a global flu pandemic.... It's about to happen again.

Now is the time for the Dallas gayborhood to solidify and expand.

Oak Lawn Apartment Sale to Crow Holdings: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... -purchase/

Seville Uptown, an apartment complex in Oak Lawn, has sold one of the 3 buildings that that compose the complex to a partnership between Crow Holdings. The article incorrectly says that the entire complex was sold. The only building sold was building #2, 2525 Reagan, which shares a block with Sprezza and Merchant House (recently closed).

I actually live in this particular building, and got an email notifying me about it. I bought a house in Oak Cliff and am moving out of this apartment later this month, so it doesn't matter much to me, but it is sad to see a barely 16 year old apartment get torn down. My unit was completely remodeled right before I moved in, with brand new floors, paint, and kitchen. It's quite nice, loft style, very high ceilings with exposed ducts, a gorgeous new kitchen, and massive glass windows and sliding doors with a treeline view. Each unit comes with 2 garage parking spots. I have always felt this apartment was built almost like a condo, and is miles better built than the garbage donut apartments they're building these days.

The apartment complex said the developer bought the entire block, so I guess we will eventually see this building, Sprezza, and Merchant House come down for a tower. Since Crow developed Old Parkland across the street, I guess they have even bigger plans for this area.

That's crazy!

And this remains.

Whatever they do they better not displace Sprezza! One of the best in the city

Did they buy this to tear it down and redevelop or as an income asset? I don't believe the land values in this area are nearly high enough to justify tearing down a higher density multi-family building.

Matt777 wrote:Oak Lawn Apartment Sale to Crow Holdings: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... -purchase/

Seville Uptown, an apartment complex in Oak Lawn, has sold one of the 3 buildings that that compose the complex to a partnership between Crow Holdings. The article incorrectly says that the entire complex was sold. The only building sold was building #2, 2525 Reagan, which shares a block with Sprezza and Merchant House (recently closed).

I actually live in this particular building, and got an email notifying me about it. I bought a house in Oak Cliff and am moving out of this apartment later this month, so it doesn't matter much to me, but it is sad to see a barely 16 year old apartment get torn down. My unit was completely remodeled right before I moved in, with brand new floors, paint, and kitchen. It's quite nice, loft style, very high ceilings with exposed ducts, a gorgeous new kitchen, and massive glass windows and sliding doors with a treeline view. Each unit comes with 2 garage parking spots. I have always felt this apartment was built almost like a condo, and is miles better built than the garbage donut apartments they're building these days.

The apartment complex said the developer bought the entire block, so I guess we will eventually see this building, Sprezza, and Merchant House come down for a tower. Since Crow developed Old Parkland across the street, I guess they have even bigger plans for this area.

I thought Sprezza and Merchant House were new builds? Maybe a couple years old? Thats crazy.

And non-related.......Has anyone noticed that our winter storm a few weeks backs seems to have annihilated all the palm trees around Dallas? I noticed the ones down Cedar Springs by Walgreens, BOA and Woodys are looking dead. Thats kind of a bummer.

I won’t miss them. Every time I see a palm tree, I wonder....why. They look out of place. I don’t want my hometown to look like Los Angeles or Miami. I live in Dallas.

TacoTuesdays wrote:Did they buy this to tear it down and redevelop or as an income asset? I don't believe the land values in this area are nearly high enough to justify tearing down a higher density multi-family building.

Matt777 wrote:Oak Lawn Apartment Sale to Crow Holdings: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... -purchase/

Seville Uptown, an apartment complex in Oak Lawn, has sold one of the 3 buildings that that compose the complex to a partnership between Crow Holdings. The article incorrectly says that the entire complex was sold. The only building sold was building #2, 2525 Reagan, which shares a block with Sprezza and Merchant House (recently closed).

I actually live in this particular building, and got an email notifying me about it. I bought a house in Oak Cliff and am moving out of this apartment later this month, so it doesn't matter much to me, but it is sad to see a barely 16 year old apartment get torn down. My unit was completely remodeled right before I moved in, with brand new floors, paint, and kitchen. It's quite nice, loft style, very high ceilings with exposed ducts, a gorgeous new kitchen, and massive glass windows and sliding doors with a treeline view. Each unit comes with 2 garage parking spots. I have always felt this apartment was built almost like a condo, and is miles better built than the garbage donut apartments they're building these days.

The apartment complex said the developer bought the entire block, so I guess we will eventually see this building, Sprezza, and Merchant House come down for a tower. Since Crow developed Old Parkland across the street, I guess they have even bigger plans for this area.

They didn't announce what their intention was. This was just hearsay from the apartment office. But the fact that they bought only ONE of the three buildings that make up the complex, plus the restaurants, sure make it seem like their intention is to redevelop the entire block.

The new owner has retained Seville as the management company for now, according to the email I received, but building 2 residents now pay their rent in a different portal.

Also, all of the units for lease in building #2 (the building purchased by Crow) have all been taken off the website and are no longer for lease.

The Zoning commission did not approve this last night mainly due to input from the anti urban anti density anti growth Oak Lawn Committee. They approved a giant project along McKinney Ave. similar in size that butts directly into a historic area but did not approve this. Very frustrating.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ngs-strip/

Cbdallas wrote:The Zoning commission did not approve this last night mainly due to input from the anti urban anti density anti growth Oak Lawn Committee. They approved a giant project along McKinney Ave. similar in size that butts directly into a historic area but did not approve this. Very frustrating.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ngs-strip/

So where does this leave the project now?

I think they have to go before the city council and make their case with them. Hopefully the Oak Lawn Committee members will not show up and insert themselves with the falsehoods and misinformation they did last night with zoning.