Oak Lawn

[tamtagon]

I may be wrong about this, but gurl I know I'm not... while the importance and awareness of a coherent cohesive gay oriented entertainment conglomerate anchoring a gayborhood has become less important in the lives of maturing teens and young adults, the existence of these destinations has not. As more and more neighborhoods become gay friendly and "gay" entertainers find work at a greater variety of venues, the destination gayborhood like Dallas has on Cedar Springs becomes even more important, counter-intuitive as that may seem.

[Tucy]

I may be wrong about this, but gurl I know I'm not... while the importance and awareness of a coherent cohesive gay oriented entertainment conglomerate anchoring a gayborhood has become less important in the lives of maturing teens and young adults, the existence of these destinations has not. As more and more neighborhoods become gay friendly and "gay" entertainers find work at a greater variety of venues, the destination gayborhood like Dallas has on Cedar Springs becomes even more important, counter-intuitive as that may seem.

More important to whom?

[vman]

Some did years ago and now they live everywhere. Last I checked the gays, me being one, just started integrating without much concern for a gaybourhood while there is still a fairly large contingent that clings to the safety of finding people like themselves in one area. I have even started seeing Drag shows take off in Deep Ellum as alternative entertainment.

I purchased a home in the Irving area after years downtown and there seems to be no shortage of gays here. There’s one section of townhouses in my community we jokingly call Cedar Springs west because the majority of that section is gay households.

[tamtagon]

I may be wrong about this, but gurl I know I'm not... while the importance and awareness of a coherent cohesive gay oriented entertainment conglomerate anchoring a gayborhood has become less important in the lives of maturing teens and young adults, the existence of these destinations has not. As more and more neighborhoods become gay friendly and "gay" entertainers find work at a greater variety of venues, the destination gayborhood like Dallas has on Cedar Springs becomes even more important, counter-intuitive as that may seem.

More important to whom?

More important to our society, as a whole.

[tanzoak]

Gay enclaves formed as a protective response to some pretty horrific oppression and discrimination. The fact that people don’t feel the need to form/maintain those enclaves any more is a good thing.

Is there something lost with the dissolution of these places? Sure. But we can’t have all of the things, and there’s no sense in letting the nostalgia bug make us pine for an environment that was on net much worse.

[cowboyeagle05]

I will tell you there is plenty of oppression happening. This is Texas and the countless gays I get introduced to who have been ostracized, kicked out and run away from home is very much high. Just cause we got gay marriage doesn't mean the game is over. The sheer number of a homeless gay youth is a huge epidemic in this country and in Texas. So we have to be careful to call an end to widespread operession.

Personally, while I welcome the opportunity to visit other bar areas the gay bars still have unique experiences to offer over that of the douche straight bars of Uptown or the hipster bars of Deep Ellum. With that said the gay bars are still betting on the dedicated audience with the same old lack of marketing dollars and reinvestment they have since the days of nickel beer. While other areas market themselves to the things we will refer to as contemporary gays are looking for in lively nightlife.

The reason I moved into the gaybourhood was that I could ride one bus to work right outside my building and walk to the things I need like Kroger, Walgreens, Resturants, Liquor, and of course a 2$ well drink when I want to booze the night away without depending on an Uber. In some form, if I move these are the things I will look for and not many places in Dallas offer these things so easily.

[tanzoak]

I'm not saying that there is no homophobia or discrimination in TX anymore. I'm saying that in the 80s, you lived in The Castro/Chelsea/Oak Lawn because that's where you could live/be yourself without getting your ass kicked for walking down the street. Now, thankfully, conditions have improved to the point where you can make location decisions based on the same factors as everyone else, without a high premium put on being surrounded by fellow gays.

Sure, it would be lovely to have both the environment where people feel completely comfortable living anywhere, in addition to a strong gayborhood, but the two things are in conflict.

[Matt777]

The gay bars aren't going to disappear and are still much needed and in demand. Just because the lifestyle is gradually more accepted by straight people doesn't mean that gays still don't want to hang around their friends with a similar mindset and interests, or go out looking for potential mates. Geez.

[tamtagon]

Is there something lost with the dissolution of these places? Sure. But we can’t have all of the things, and there’s no sense in letting the nostalgia bug make us pine for an environment that was on net much worse.

Nostalgia is among the most potent drivers of the consumer marketplace. My beef with Gay Cedar Springs is adherence to the status quo. The delivery of new experience within the solid establishment is the foundation of nostalgia.

Live performance, The Theater, ought to be a popular off-shoot of the nightlife scene. It's expensive and takes years to make a good profit; would take a large, profitable company with the ability to work in a ten year time frame to tackle such a venture, Caven Enterprises is missing an opportunity of the next lifetime.

[lakewoodhobo]

Btw there is a construction fence around the old Cafe Brazil property and some of the side patio concrete has been torn up but it looks like for access to maybe an underground pipe. I would normally just say something probably froze and they had to repair it but why put up a construction fence around the entire property?

It'll become the fifth Taquería La Ventana:

Upscale taqueria enters thick of action on Dallas' Cedar Springs
http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... r-springs/

[Cbdallas]

I also heard that Pints and Quarts is open at the Centrum. Oak Lawn and Cedar Springs intersection is begging for a real pedestrain crosswalk to connect that area up for better foot traffic.

[cowboyeagle05]

Yeah, the intersection of Oak Lawn and Cedar Springs is one of the most dangerous ones to try to cross. Crosswalk signs exist but the city has not painted any markers back at all. And the wait for the lights to change is long so pedestrians end up running and darting across thinking it's not working. I get that the highway is nearby so they give priority to through traffic but there is a reason I got hit by a car on Oak Lawn and the cities lack of attention to pedestrian safety is the reason.

[uptown74]

Speaking of the intersection of Oak Lawn and Cedar Springs.... has anyone noticed the mini-homeless camp that has formed this past week at the Legacy Monument?

[TreeFrog]

Speaking of the intersection of Oak Lawn and Cedar Springs.... has anyone noticed the mini-homeless camp that has formed this past week at the Legacy Monument?

The police were out a few days ago.

[DPatel304]

I also heard that Pints and Quarts is open at the Centrum. Oak Lawn and Cedar Springs intersection is begging for a real pedestrain crosswalk to connect that area up for better foot traffic.

Yes, I can confirm Pints and Quarts is open. I went to Mudsmith this past weekend, and Mudsmith and Pints & Quarts are actually both connected to each other (I was able to order a beer at Pints & Quarts and drink it at Mudsmith).

But yes, I totally agree about better pedestrian infrastructure. The area is not friendly to walk through at all, and there is a bit of a space between the Centrum and the other establishments on the strip.

[dzh]

They need to put a plan to do to Oak Lawn what they did to Greenville Avenue. I feel like with that type of pedestrian network, the whole area would just transform over night.

[eburress]

They need to put a plan to do to Oak Lawn what they did to Greenville Avenue. I feel like with that type of pedestrian network, the whole area would just transform over night.

The city tried but the business owners didn't want it.

[Matt777]

They need to put a plan to do to Oak Lawn what they did to Greenville Avenue. I feel like with that type of pedestrian network, the whole area would just transform over night.

That would be absolutely lovely but the city council and former city council member turned corporate shill Angela Hunt are too busy helping national chains build drive through Starbucks and surface parking lots for liquor store chains. They all have a Frisco mindset and are too busy trying to compete with Frisco's new cheap crap. They are not the sharpest tools in the shed and are easily distracted by shiny new things regardless of the amount of cheap EIFS stucco and shiny new asphalt.

[eburress]

They need to put a plan to do to Oak Lawn what they did to Greenville Avenue. I feel like with that type of pedestrian network, the whole area would just transform over night.

That would be absolutely lovely but the city council and former city council member turned corporate shill Angela Hunt are too busy helping national chains build drive through Starbucks and surface parking lots for liquor store chains. They all have a Frisco mindset and are too busy trying to compete with Frisco's new cheap crap. They are not the sharpest tools in the shed and are easily distracted by shiny new things regardless of the amount of cheap EIFS stucco and shiny new asphalt.

I get your point re. our corporate shills, but again, the city tried to redo Cedar Springs but the local businesses stopped it.

https://dallascompletestreets.wordpress ... s-project/

[cowboyeagle05]

They need to put a plan to do to Oak Lawn what they did to Greenville Avenue. I feel like with that type of pedestrian network, the whole area would just transform over night.

That would be absolutely lovely but the city council and former city council member turned corporate shill Angela Hunt are too busy helping national chains build drive-through Starbucks and surface parking lots for liquor store chains. They all have a Frisco mindset and are too busy trying to compete with Frisco's new cheap crap. They are not the sharpest tools in the shed and are easily distracted by shiny new things regardless of the amount of cheap EIFS stucco and shiny new asphalt.

Someone is upset and that's saying a lot from me who has been bemoaning the lack of complete street redo of Cedar Springs. Let's also keep in mind Oak Lawn is a direct route to two freeways and turns into Preston Road when it goes North a major regional roadway leading all the way to Frisco. Cedar Springs is a rather important connector to the Airport and the residential that exists between DNT and Inwood. The one time the bridge was shut down over DNT for construction traffic was dead and many blame it for killing many businesses. So you can understand why the city and politicians are concerned about going to full hog on narrowing or shutting down too much.

Plus let's compare the power struggle in Lower Greenville to Cedar Springs. Lowest Greenville power is in the votes from the neighborhood, not the bars and nightlife that once plagued that street. They worked with Angela Hunt to make sizable changes cause they wanted them.

In the case of Cedar Springs, the power is in the Gay business groups and leaders that speak for the gay community. The power is not as strong in the neighborhood that deals with most of the leftover bar crowd that filters out at 2 am. You don't have angry homeowners who email their council member every Saturday and Sunday after the bar crowd has pooped in their yard or blocked their driveway. Yes, there is an Oak Lawn board but they have an entirely different relationship with the neighborhood than Lowest Greenville had with their neighborhood. There is less contention so unless that power is rebalanced the desires of the bars and restaurants is going to remain and council members are not going to lose the gay vote over forcing wider sidewalks and shutting things down for some construction project the bars don't see the value in.

[tamtagon]

For once, I would love to see the city recondition a thoroughfare before the wave of redevelopment hits. From Highland Park all the way to the levee, Oak Lawn Avenue should be rebuilt with the goal of dramatically increasing the residential population and the ease with which the residential population gets around its neighborhood.

[lakewoodhobo]

This is an absolute must if we ever expect people to walk from the Strip to the Centrum.

Screen Shot 2018-02-02 at 10.08.28 AM.jpg

[muncien]

I know this would never, ever happen, but I think this intersection would make a really perfect roundabout. But without a doubt, we are terrible with roundabouts here (both building them, and using them), so it's not going to happen...

Plus, it would do little to nothing to help the pedestrian situation.

[tamtagon]

Commuters through this area in the future should be encouraged to find a different route to the highway.

[cowboyeagle05]

This is an absolute must if we ever expect people to walk from the Strip to the Centrum.

Screen Shot 2018-02-02 at 10.08.28 AM.jpg

I can not imagine anyone would fight that project either. People already use the Centrum garage for parking and they dart across Oak Lawn and almost get hit all the time. Plus maybe the city would finally repaint the crosswalks here. They have been gone for a long time now. Too bad the Centrums new owners haven't made any public indicators that they would welcome improvements. Does anyone know any grant programs we can apply for? I will gladly spend time and effort gathering signatures or fill out documents to request funds if it can be a part of a solution that isn't just me wining on the forum.

[Matt777]

They need to put a plan to do to Oak Lawn what they did to Greenville Avenue. I feel like with that type of pedestrian network, the whole area would just transform over night.

That would be absolutely lovely but the city council and former city council member turned corporate shill Angela Hunt are too busy helping national chains build drive-through Starbucks and surface parking lots for liquor store chains. They all have a Frisco mindset and are too busy trying to compete with Frisco's new cheap crap. They are not the sharpest tools in the shed and are easily distracted by shiny new things regardless of the amount of cheap EIFS stucco and shiny new asphalt.

Someone is upset and that's saying a lot from me who has been bemoaning the lack of complete street redo of Cedar Springs. Let's also keep in mind Oak Lawn is a direct route to two freeways and turns into Preston Road when it goes North a major regional roadway leading all the way to Frisco. Cedar Springs is a rather important connector to the Airport and the residential that exists between DNT and Inwood. The one time the bridge was shut down over DNT for construction traffic was dead and many blame it for killing many businesses. So you can understand why the city and politicians are concerned about going to full hog on narrowing or shutting down too much.

Plus let's compare the power struggle in Lower Greenville to Cedar Springs. Lowest Greenville power is in the votes from the neighborhood, not the bars and nightlife that once plagued that street. They worked with Angela Hunt to make sizable changes cause they wanted them.

In the case of Cedar Springs, the power is in the Gay business groups and leaders that speak for the gay community. The power is not as strong in the neighborhood that deals with most of the leftover bar crowd that filters out at 2 am. You don't have angry homeowners who email their council member every Saturday and Sunday after the bar crowd has pooped in their yard or blocked their driveway. Yes, there is an Oak Lawn board but they have an entirely different relationship with the neighborhood than Lowest Greenville had with their neighborhood. There is less contention so unless that power is rebalanced the desires of the bars and restaurants is going to remain and council members are not going to lose the gay vote over forcing wider sidewalks and shutting things down for some construction project the bars don't see the value in.

I'm not talking about Lower Greenville. Angela Hunt was representing the developers here on Oak Lawn Ave regarding the drive thru Starbucks and the Parking Lot/Wine Store at the Oak Lawn Committee. I believe she might also be tied to the attempted upzoning of the nearby residential areas? My point is she's meddling and not for the benefit of the residents, but for outside developers. The city council is too weak. Who cares if the local business owners are opposed to a project that is the GREATER GOOD for the future of the neighborhood? Their short term fears about losing a buck or two is not a sufficient reason the repair and upgrade existing infrastructure that does not work for the city as we know it today, and will not work for the future. The citizens of this city deserve leaders that will act for the CITIZENS FIRST and business interests second.

[Cbdallas]

I would be fine with improved crosswalks all the way from Cedar Springs/Turtle Creek to Douglas/Cedar Springs. Imagine if all the major Crosswalks along that corridor were improved with visible and permanent pedestrian oriented crossings. No need to change the street just improve the crosswalks. I walk this way all the time from Douglas all the way down Cedar Springs to McKinney and with would be nice if it all was connected up for pedestrians.

[cowboyeagle05]

I'm not talking about Lower Greenville. Angela Hunt was representing the developers here on Oak Lawn Ave regarding the drive thru Starbucks and the Parking Lot/Wine Store at the Oak Lawn Committee. I believe she might also be tied to the attempted upzoning of the nearby residential areas? My point is she's meddling and not for the benefit of the residents, but for outside developers. The city council is too weak. Who cares if the local business owners are opposed to a project that is the GREATER GOOD for the future of the neighborhood? Their short term fears about losing a buck or two is not a sufficient reason the repair and upgrade existing infrastructure that does not work for the city as we know it today, and will not work for the future. The citizens of this city deserve leaders that will act for the CITIZENS FIRST and business interests second.

I know you weren't focused on Greenville ave but I think it needed to be said because they are two vastly different places and how to achieve a common goal of improvement for Cedar Springs means we need to approach things realistically based on the current structures and power networks as they exist today. Greenville happened because of X Cedar Springs hasn't happened yet because of Y.

I will say I disagree with your CITIZENS first claim because those businesses are citizens. The people that work at those bars many of them live nearby so they have a first-hand understanding of the conditions they live and work in. They walk those streets and spend money at the businesses that aren't the bars too. Its one thing to point at Kroger and say they are a national company and their opinions should be capped but who is to say the local businesses don't have valid concerns? Cedar Springs isn't exactly a corporate chain business street.

I think we need to stop seeing this as a big business vs the altruistic citizen brigade if we want to accomplish a common goal of a strong, safe and economically supportive neighborhood. Plus I don't want city hall spending money on projects because they have decided they are the moral high ground. Taking input from citizens like they did was a perfectly sound decision and if a neighborhood doesn't want something I certainly think it would be foolish to force it on them. Spend tax money where the neighborhood wants City Hall to make changes. There are plenty of neighborhood associations that are willing to work with the city and local businesses on improvements that everyone can agree on in some form in other parts of the city.

Right now we have a group of private citizens that the mayor calls on for improvements to the gaybourhood. The LGBT Task Force meets at city hall regularly to discuss issues and not everyone in that group runs the bars. Its actually made up of a lot of interested parties including people who live in that neighborhood. Maybe that's a place to start because the last time I discussed these issues with a few of them they are not convinced the Lower Greenville kind of pedestrian improvements is a worthwhile investment.

[tamtagon]

Better sidewalks would improve business on the strip, that may require better parking on the side streets, but wider sidewalks in front of the busiest establishments seems pretty understandable.

[cowboyeagle05]

Better sidewalks would improve business on the strip, that may require better parking on the side streets, but wider sidewalks in front of the busiest establishments seems pretty understandable.

All things you can do without majorly disturbing the daily operations of business and commerce. Just create a plan for drive cuts to be reduced where they can be. Where driveways have to remain redo the ramps so that the sidewalk that crosses it maintains level crossing. There are lots of steep ramps that cross sidewalks in this area and to be honest lots of high heeled drag queens and girls that would love it if you made that little of a change. I have even seen handicap people ride in the gutter cause the sidewalks are so inconsistent.

Crosswalk paving would be a welcome addition even if it wasn't rainbow colored. That Taxi stand in front of S4 needs to be revisited cause the potential for bomb threats. After Pulse S4 no longer allowed taxis or cars parked in front of the doors for safety reasons. A parking study could be a great data set to gather. Attacks from a few years ago commonly happened well away from the bars in dark corners of the neighborhood. Improving lighting away from Cedar Springs is a major concern I have.

[tamtagon]

Taxi/ride share stands should be on the side streets. I think the road needs to be two lanes each way so fire trucks can get through in an emergency, but dropping people off on Reagan/Throckmorton/Dickason/Roswell would be so much better than Cedar Springs. I would even rezone Dickason (and of course Throckmorton) for commercial.

[Matt777]

The aqua neon pyramid that tops the Centrum clocktower was removed.... sad. Maybe it's being repaired? I hope the aqua neon stays. They sanitized the rest of the design and that was the only thing with character left. Oak Lawn won't feel the same without the clocktower.

[R1070]

Some of the Centrum renderings showed LED screens on the tower.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

The centrum improvements have been great. Mudsmith and Quarts n Pints are fabulous.

My only complaint is the lighting in mudsmith. Too dark. Can't read.

[cowboyeagle05]

The aqua neon pyramid that tops the Centrum clocktower was removed.... sad. Maybe it's being repaired? I hope the aqua neon stays. They sanitized the rest of the design and that was the only thing with character left. Oak Lawn won't feel the same without the clocktower.

Its funny I hated the pyramid and the styling of the clock had worn on me. I think the tower looks a lot better without it. What I can not tell is if they still intend on doing further work to the clock tower or if they took the pyramid off and plan on walking away. They are building out the curbside parking spots in front of the new retail but I doubt they are doing screens on the tower. I think they only intended for there to be large promotional banners attached to the tower with the clock removed.

[Matt777]

Just like with all the early 1900s architecture and midcentury modern that Dallas has torn down, we will wonder the same about the Postmodern architecture currently being sanitized and destroyed in 5-10 years. "Why did they tear it all out?" Our developers do not respect former architect's visions and we pay for it with a loss of architectural identity. The "new" Centrum looks crappy and plain now, and in 10 years it's going to be even crappier. Looks like the world's biggest strip mall now.

[tamtagon]

^word

[Cbdallas]

I too noticed the removal of the top of the clock but I thought I remember seeing renderings of the redo of the clocktower with LED boards in place of the clocks. I am hoping they do that as it would add some life to overall building.

[cowboyeagle05]

Looks like backlit art not screens to me.

5908ad2734021_Centrum_front_copy.png

Screen Shot 2018-02-06 at 2.53.20 PM.png

[R1070]

I think that would look better than LED screens.

[vman]

The centrum improvements have been great. Mudsmith and Quarts n Pints are fabulous.

My only complaint is the lighting in mudsmith. Too dark. Can't read.

I don't understand all the hate for the renovations. I'm not blown away by the new Centrum, but I don't think it's awful either. The redo does bring more attention to the retail in the building, which was a major flaw of the original design. I've only been to Mattito's, but I can't wait to check out Mudsmith's and Pint & Quarts.

[vman]

The centrum improvements have been great. Mudsmith and Quarts n Pints are fabulous.

My only complaint is the lighting in mudsmith. Too dark. Can't read.

I don't understand all the hate for the renovations. I'm not blown away by the new Centrum, but I don't think it's awful either. The redo does bring more attention to the retail in the building, which was a major flaw of the original design. I've only been to Mattito's, but I can't wait to check out Mudsmith's and Quarts.

[cowboyeagle05]

Btw as I rode the bus by the building this morning a crew was setting up show around the tower. They appear to be ready to work on whatever the final tower function will be. They were unloading parts off a truck could have been scaffoldings based on the parts I saw coming off the truck.

[cowboyeagle05]

Union Coffee shop was previously located near SMU on the east side of 75. Looks like they are moving it to Oak Lawn.

40D12905-8BBC-4680-9E46-3769FF74055E.jpeg

[DPatel304]

^That makes sense. I was in the area a week ago, and Union Coffee popped up on google maps, but I, obviously, couldn't find it.

I hope this ends up doing well, but they are opening extremely close to Mudsmith, and I'm not convinced this area is strong enough for both. Oak Lawn has a decent amount of density, but all the retail still feels very suburban to me, and, because of that, I think the Union will end up doing better. This location looks like it'll be easier to access by car, not that Mudsmith is difficult (because it's not), but the Union Coffee Shop is in it's own dedicated building and, I assume, will have it's own dedicated surface parking spaces.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

^That makes sense. I was in the area a week ago, and Union Coffee popped up on google maps, but I, obviously, couldn't find it.

I hope this ends up doing well, but they are opening extremely close to Mudsmith, and I'm not convinced this area is strong enough for both. Oak Lawn has a decent amount of density, but all the retail still feels very suburban to me, and, because of that, I think the Union will end up doing better. This location looks like it'll be easier to access by car, not that Mudsmith is difficult (because it's not), but the Union Coffee Shop is in it's own dedicated building and, I assume, will have it's own dedicated surface parking spaces.

Hopefully Mudsmith doesn't suffer. They're better in every aspect than the Union.

[cowboyeagle05]

It's interesting we are getting both when there is a drive-thru Starbucks looming. Just more proof that the area is changing as development replaces aging residential from Oak Lawn north towards the medical district/Love Field.

[DPatel304]

Hopefully Mudsmith doesn't suffer. They're better in every aspect than the Union.

I'm not big on coffee, or coffee shops for that matter, but I've always loved the atmosphere of the Mudsmith in Lower Greenville. The Oak Lawn is bigger and holds the same vibe, I'm just not a fan of the look of Pints & Quarts which, unfortunately, is semi-connected to Mudsmith.

I only visited the Union once and, to me, it seemed to have a different approach. The one time I went was on a Saturday evening and the place was dead silent. It seemed like it was designed for people who like quiet study time, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare it to Mudsmith. But that 'quiet study' atmosphere doesn't make sense in Oak Lawn, so it'll be interesting to see what they do with this new location.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

The thing with the union is that it doesn't do anything great. It's Not bad just average. It's White Rock Coffee's little brother.

But White Rock is better since they actually experiment with different blends.

Mudsmith just has a better selection and atmosphere than White Rock and the Union IMO.

However, these places are mere mortals to Ascensión. I appreciate that Ascensión Does tea correctly and with the dignity that a cup of tea deserves.

[cowboyeagle05]

Also, Union is a church effort to provide a safe space for the arts and local groups to meet. Which I think is a great opportunity for the neighborhood. Union also usually hosted life music shows that appeared well attended by the intended audiences. Also, the quiet nature of Union's old location was that it was not on a busy corner it was hidden away from traffic and most people to even notice it. In addition, it was near SMU, so students would frequent it for a study haven.

The brand will have to operate differently when it's on busy Cedar Springs and Oak Lawn. It will have to appeal to some of the gay community considering the Methodist church next door is friendly to the LGBT community. The active hours for them could be quiet different than their old location.

I like Pints & Quarts food but I have yet to visit this location and get a feel for the vibe.