Oak Lawn

[R1070]

Yes.

[kingpin]

A couple updates

Parkland Knight Office building


Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr


Old Parkland Campus Expansion
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

[lakewoodhobo]

I was browsing the UTA/SquireHaskins historical photos collection and came across these ones of the Melrose from when it had a pool. Date unknown, but caption says "Outdoor meal event around the pool, Melrose Hotel, 3015 Oak Lawn Ave Dallas, Texas."

Any idea when the pool was demolished and where exactly it was located? Looks like maybe right in front where the porte-cochere is now.

d321b399c430d6a1c7476c1d14e3773a.jpg

Outdoor meal event around the pool Melrose Hotel 3015 Oak Lawn Ave Dallas.jpg

[tamtagon]

On one hand, it's so frustrating that this hotel continues to idle even after taking half the block for expansion. Then on the other hand, the neighborhood could evolve a little more before The Melrose reestablished itself as a major landmark.... kinda seems like the hotel owners are resisting the obvious marketplace, the Gayborhood; is there even anywhere in Texas a big gay spa-resort hotel? Imagine a lush pool where Bronx used to be, with adjoining ballroom, it would be packed in non-stop. An adjoining residential tower would stay fully occupied.

[cowboyeagle05]

There is no Cedar Springs Rd. redo planned. The neighborhood meetings killed that project in the crib.

[lakewoodhobo]

On one hand, it's so frustrating that this hotel continues to idle even after taking half the block for expansion. Then on the other hand, the neighborhood could evolve a little more before The Melrose reestablished itself as a major landmark.... kinda seems like the hotel owners are resisting the obvious marketplace, the Gayborhood; is there even anywhere in Texas a big gay spa-resort hotel? Imagine a lush pool where Bronx used to be, with adjoining ballroom, it would be packed in non-stop. An adjoining residential tower would stay fully occupied.

On the topic of our beloved gayborhood, the same collection contains a good reminder of how it's evolved. I did not realize that the JR's building was once a "Pay-Less Furniture" store.

a0f66a478119df2c85207f14cc0c613b.jpg

3921 Cedar Springs.jpg

Which proves that Cedar Springs will continue to evolve. We've discussed this to death, but Caven is killing the Strip and I really wouldn't hate it if a new gayborhood evolved in Oak Cliff.

[Cbdallas]

I will second that.

[Tnexster]

Are there any signs that could happen?

[lakewoodhobo]

Are there any signs that could happen?

There are rumors of one major bar packing up and moving there, but of course it would take so much more than that. I think it would take a developer to purchase several lots in a place like Center Street, which is primed for redevelopment, and deliberately market it for that purpose. It's never been done in a "new" area, to my knowledge, so who knows if it would work.

[R1070]

How is Caven killing the strip? What is happening?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

How is Caven killing the strip? What is happening?

If I recall correctly, they're against improving cedars springs Rd walk-ability. Essentially, club owners are against it because it would deter business. So they say....

[cowboyeagle05]

Its not just Caven, all business owners on the strip are against a Cedar Springs Rd redo. They have gone on record to the city and any redo would have to not impede traffic. They all cite what happened when the Cedar Springs Tollway bridge was closed for a big ole redo. When that pass-thru traffic stopped several businesses supposedly closed due to lack of customers. Most of the business owners not just Caven don't want to lose their business just for some plants and creative paving. Take into consideration how long the gaybourhood has existed in this area. Decades long and gaybourhoods don't tend to get built by a developer. Gaybourhoods happen over years of a community gathering in a similar area. Dallas is one of unique places you can actually point to a spot on the map and it be firmly a LGBT community center. If you close a bunch of gay businesses during construction will they come back? Fear of losing the gaybourhood to hipster development is a serious concern from everyone. They also point to Lower Greenville where the city did a bunch of things trying to maintain access and still businesses closed. Sure its easy now to say things are better though but tell that to the many small businesses owners who exist on Cedar Springs today that feed off the liveliness of the gaybourhood. Caven is safe they have deeper pockets and 100% own their land/buildings. They could flip property to a apartment developer overnight but the smaller businesses are more dependent on other factors.

[tamtagon]

Its not just Caven, all business owners on the strip are against a Cedar Springs Rd redo. They have gone on record to the city and any redo would have to not impede traffic. They all cite what happened when the Cedar Springs Tollway bridge was closed for a big ole redo. When that pass-thru traffic stopped several businesses supposedly closed due to lack of customers. Most of the business owners not just Caven don't want to lose their business just for some plants and creative paving. Take into consideration how long the gaybourhood has existed in this area. Decades long and gaybourhoods don't tend to get built by a developer. Gaybourhoods happen over years of a community gathering in a similar area. Dallas is one of unique places you can actually point to a spot on the map and it be firmly a LGBT community center. If you close a bunch of gay businesses during construction will they come back? Fear of losing the gaybourhood to hipster development is a serious concern from everyone. They also point to Lower Greenville where the city did a bunch of things trying to maintain access and still businesses closed. Sure its easy now to say things are better though but tell that to the many small businesses owners who exist on Cedar Springs today that feed off the liveliness of the gaybourhood. Caven is safe they have deeper pockets and 100% own their land/buildings. They could flip property to a apartment developer overnight but the smaller businesses are more dependent on other factors.

Well, I'm like kinda yes, kinda no.... I think it's there's some worthwhile parallels between the evolutions of Caven Inc & The Crossroads and American Airlines & DFW Airport. Too firm a grip from the Bible Belt being the primary catalyst ironically provided the platform for the Gayborhood in Oak Lawn, and just as certainly influential, the Dallas Arts Community was clearing out the sketchy edge of the historic CBD for the Arts District, the success Caven enjoyed turned into safe homebase for gays but today, that operation and the neighborhood would benefit from a refreshed business plan.

The liveliness of the neighborhood could be so much deeper and varied but the dominance of one legacy empire has grown into a restriction. The evolution of the neighborhood that's needed is on the way, though, and really, the reaction Caven will be critical. The Gayborhood simply need more residents. Maple Avenue is turning into Corporation Nation and that is a potentially sterilizing impact. I could go on and on, but just don't have the time.

[lakewoodhobo]

I also feel like the Resource Center picked a terrible location for their new building. It is not well designed and it's not a good gathering space - I know because I went there the night of the Pulse shooting. Moving the LGBT community center away from the heart of the gayborhood was just as damaging as the businesses on Cedar Springs killing the complete street redesign.

The LGBT community may no longer need gay bookstores and coffee shops, but it does need a space for spontaneous gathering/protest/celebration. The Legacy of Love and Resource Center don't provide that successfully.

[cowboyeagle05]

I agree 100% with you Lakewoodhobo. I have had many many conversations with neighborhood owners and the like and that's when I figured out what a lot of gays tend to do is blame Caven cause its the easiest target. The reality is Caven doesn't appear to have a vision for the future but neither does many of the business owners in the gaybourhood. Its not just the bars. They appear to be focused on maintaining things as they are and business owners in the neighborhood agree because they are all afraid if they make any of the proposed changes things will be worse. Many of us look at Lower Greenville and go look at that miracle but to many businesses look at Lower Greenville and fear. Until we can talk to such owners with that understanding and solutions for their fears we cant expect them to take the leap.

The problem is city staff isn't supposed to push these things too much they are instructed to do what the neighborhood wants/elected official wants even if the city planner on staff knows the communities fear is founded in distrust and incorrect understanding of traffic and commerce. The last time the city had a meeting about a street redo of Cedar Springs the only people that could show up was the business owners during the middle of the day and they were a fiery bunch.

Also the mayor has that LGBT Task Force that meets to decide things for us and the city staff takes cues from them on what projects to pursue. Last I heard the Task Force group was against much of what was proposed. They have requested new crosswalks but that seems to be a hard issue for city hall to change its habits/policy on.

[R1070]

The sidewalks were improved on the Hunkys/Roundup Block and not really any neighborhood interruptions. I'm sure they could find a way to do this in a smart manner.

[vman]

I agree 100% with you Lakewoodhobo. I have had many many conversations with neighborhood owners and the like and that's when I figured out what a lot of gays tend to do is blame Caven cause its the easiest target. The reality is Caven doesn't appear to have a vision for the future but neither does many of the business owners in the gaybourhood. Its not just the bars. They appear to be focused on maintaining things as they are and business owners in the neighborhood agree because they are all afraid if they make any of the proposed changes things will be worse. Many of us look at Lower Greenville and go look at that miracle but to many businesses look at Lower Greenville and fear. Until we can talk to such owners with that understanding and solutions for their fears we cant expect them to take the leap.

What is the future for the "strip"? When I come to Dallas on many a weekend afternoon, I'll occasionally grab a burger at Hunky's. This is usually after I've been to Bishop Arts, Uptown, Knox-Henderson or Deep Ellum. And compared to Dallas' hotspots, Cedar Springs is always the least vibrant, even on a perfect spring day. Are the business owners fine with this? Plus, the new apartment developments down the street have done little to bring life to the strip, so new development hasn't necessarily been a big help. And from what I've heard from friends, it's not the night time destination that it used to be. I understand that doing something is scary for the business owners there, but doing nothing is scary too.

[Cbdallas]

Change will come when the owners pocketbook takes a hit and I think that is already happening at certain places. The entire section from Oak Lawn to the Tollway should be midrise density with retail front at street level. As more residents continue to move in and consume parking that don't go to the bars it will force owners to change thier offerings.

[cowboyeagle05]

I agree 100% with you Lakewoodhobo. I have had many many conversations with neighborhood owners and the like and that's when I figured out what a lot of gays tend to do is blame Caven cause its the easiest target. The reality is Caven doesn't appear to have a vision for the future but neither does many of the business owners in the gaybourhood. Its not just the bars. They appear to be focused on maintaining things as they are and business owners in the neighborhood agree because they are all afraid if they make any of the proposed changes things will be worse. Many of us look at Lower Greenville and go look at that miracle but to many businesses look at Lower Greenville and fear. Until we can talk to such owners with that understanding and solutions for their fears we cant expect them to take the leap.

What is the future for the "strip"? When I come to Dallas on many a weekend afternoon, I'll occasionally grab a burger at Hunky's. This is usually after I've been to Bishop Arts, Uptown, Knox-Henderson or Deep Ellum. And compared to Dallas' hotspots, Cedar Springs is always the least vibrant, even on a perfect spring day. Are the business owners fine with this? Plus, the new apartment developments down the street have done little to bring life to the strip, so new development hasn't necessarily been a big help. And from what I've heard from friends, it's not the night time destination that it used to be. I understand that doing something is scary for the business owners there, but doing nothing is scary too.

Your assumptions are accurate and it already has hit all their pocketbooks but Caven competes by raising well drink prices by 25 cents every 6 months. The rest of them just complain but don't yield, plus the city only proposed the redo once so many owners aren't looking at it as a lever to pull. I will say there are more straight people than ever in the gay bars, specifically women and its only increased the number of gay men avoiding the bars. Nothing will change until more businesses close though by lack of interest. Then the Tavern Guild will be weakened and arguments about the future will be front and center with non millennial voices still pointing to the past for solutions. I am still waiting for a different voice to shine some light on things us gay customers have know for the last 10 years.

[DPatel304]

I understand that doing something is scary for the business owners there, but doing nothing is scary too.

Yeah, this sums up the state of Oak Lawn lately. Back in 2010 when Uptown was booming, I was so sure that Oak Lawn Ave. and Cedar Springs Rd would be next in line to see a huge transformation. Uptown looked like it would get too expensive and land would be limited, so, naturally, it made sense for development to spill over to Oak Lawn, but that still has yet to happen. There are a lot of small mid-rise projects occurring but nothing earth shattering, which is a huge disappointment.

Instead, since 2010, basically all other parts of the urban core have boomed except for Oak Lawn. Looking back, I guess I can see why because other areas were cheaper and a lot of them didn't have single family homes that would impede development. With that in mind, it's still disappointing to see how much the city has changed in the last decade and then look at Oak Lawn Ave, Cedar Springs Rd and even Lemmon Ave haven't changed all that much.

[lakewoodhobo]

I'd like to nominate the parking lot shown below for "most wasted space in Oak Lawn" - owned by Caven Enterprises.

Screen Shot 2018-01-05 at 11.38.00 AM.png

Good opportunity to co-develop it with the owner of the BofA property and provide structured parking, residential and an urban bank branch.

[TreeFrog]

I'd like to nominate the parking lot shown below for "most wasted space in Oak Lawn" - owned by Caven Enterprises.

Oh no, the back lot of the Melrose (old Bronx location) takes that prize in spades. At least the parking lot is serving a need and it also does not front Cedar Springs.

[Cbdallas]

The Melrose has a planned development for that lot if the old owner of empty and ragged and probably out of code compliance cafe brazil space would sell. As far as I know Caven has nothing planned for their lot.

[R1070]

That Caven lot and Bank of America should be combined into a mixed use development to wrap around that existing retail.

[uptown74]

Was just at the Tom Thumb in Turtle Creek Village and it looks like they lost all 3 retail tenants between Malibu Poke and World Market (Correct me if i'm wrong about this). But the signage was down for Mill No 3, Tinsley Radix and the salon that was there. Wow.

[flyswatter]

Parking there is atrocious during peak shopping, especially now that Tom Thumb is there. They should have built a garage instead of that tiny surface lot, and the garage across the way that's attached to the office buildings are not convenient and I do not even think shoppers are allowed to park there.

[R1070]

The shopping center should have been torn down and rebuilt as mixed use with parking garages, residential, retail, etc in a walkable village.

[tamtagon]

I'd like to nominate the parking lot shown below for "most wasted space in Oak Lawn" - owned by Caven Enterprises.

Screen Shot 2018-01-05 at 11.38.00 AM.png

Good opportunity to co-develop it with the owner of the BofA property and provide structured parking, residential and an urban bank branch.

There's gotta be a better location for that elementary school.

[Cbdallas]

I don't think parking closed down those clothing stores. I have noticed most of the retail that is closing are clothes related. I think the young kiddos are real comfortable ordering on line from sites and apps. This segment of retail will mostly shrink and vanish over time except for the high end stores.

[tamtagon]

Ideal retail center for local clothing designers.

[cowboyeagle05]

I'd like to nominate the parking lot shown below for "most wasted space in Oak Lawn" - owned by Caven Enterprises.

Screen Shot 2018-01-05 at 11.38.00 AM.png

Good opportunity to co-develop it with the owner of the BofA property and provide structured parking, residential and an urban bank branch.

There's gotta be a better location for that elementary school.

Why it seems perfectly situated to me. It helps keep the bars in check. The bars themselves donate to that school thousands of dollars every year because it is one of the poorest schools in the DISD. The good thing it could help a future Oak Lawn dust off its drinking twentysomething only crowd towards a mix of families as well.

[tamtagon]

Four of biggest gay bars in the state are on the same block and owned by the same company, that's what keeps the bars in check.

[cowboyeagle05]

Four of biggest gay bars in the state are on the same block and owned by the same company, that's what keeps the bars in check.

RoundUp is just as popular as S4/Caven bars and its owned by independent owners. A key point for anyone that is curious Caven Enterprises is employee owned. Corporate HQ is located on the strip in a space not labeled to discourage unwanted visitors. Every employee that has worked there for over a year gets stock in the company. Many employees have been working there for over 10years and those people will get a huge check if Caven corporate ever decides to sell. Most employees live within a mile or two but not everyone. Last I heard RoundUp was for sale if the right buyer comes along.

[Cbdallas]

Is just the Round Up for sale or the strip center along entire block that fronts Cedar Springs. Would love to see an 8 story midrise take up that entire block with storefront on the bottom floor.

[cowboyeagle05]

Is just the Round Up for sale or the strip center along entire block that fronts Cedar Springs. Would love to see an 8 story midrise take up that entire block with a storefront on the bottom floor.

Yes, just the business itself and its lease, not the strip they are located in. The owners of that strip pay close attention to trying to lease to gay-oriented businesses.

[tamtagon]

Four of biggest gay bars in the state are on the same block and owned by the same company, that's what keeps the bars in check.

RoundUp is just as popular as S4/Caven bars and its owned by independent owners. A key point for anyone that is curious Caven Enterprises is employee owned.

I didn't know that, thanks!

I still expect more from Caven. I want to be specific, and I'll try to collect my thoughts.

[DPatel304]

This isn't exactly Oak Lawn specific, but I'm really surprised Eatzi's doesn't have plans for another location. I haven't been to their Plano one, but this seems like this would be the type of place that does better in the city versus the suburbs.

Their sandwich/salad bar seems to be extremely popular, so I feel like they could simply open a smaller 'Eatzi's Deli' somewhere Downtown and do really well.

[Cbdallas]

They have their newest location at Royal and Preston. There is another on Lovers between the tollway and inwood. I think someday we will see a downtown location but we still would need more density before that will happen. They have a higher price point so the demographics pretty much tells them where they can go.

[DPatel304]

Oh wow, for some reason I did not know about those other two locations.

[tamtagon]

Ridiculous that Royal Blue will open two CBD stores before Eatzi's. Whatever. I guess they got burned once trying a full domestic expansion, so they're just going to be happy riding the test kitchen concept in West Dallas (I called for the test kitchen food hall concept at the farmers market ten+ years ago....) until it's no longer fresh and cutting edge and co-op the next idea to come along.

[cowboyeagle05]

Eatzis seems to be focusing on well established monied areas. Downtown while busy with a lunch crowd is still a new area in terms of redevelopment and doesn't really fit what they tend to be doing.

[DPatel304]

I checked out the new(ish) Mudsmith at the Centrum this afternoon. I'm not a fan of the new Centrum look, but the fact that they brought Mudsmith, Pints & Quarts, and Mille Lire in addition the existing Mattito's is a pretty big addition to the area.

Matito's was decently busy, but everything else was a bit slow. Perhaps that's simply because people aren't really aware of these places yet? Matito's has been there a while and is very visible when you're driving in Oak Lawn, while the other places aren't as visible and are much newer. Anyway, I'm really hoping for the best for these places. I think some added foot traffic in the area would really help, unfortunately not much development has been happening in Oak Lawn to change that.

The parking garage at the Centrum was pretty nifty. Instead of using a ticket to track time and validate/get out, everything is tied to your phone number. There is a touch screen when you enter where you input your phone number and, when I walked into Mudsmith, there was another touch screen when you enter where you can enter your phone number again to validate. When I left the garage, the gate simply opened for me without me having to input anything. I'm not sure if the time I went was just free for everyone, or if possibly my phone number was tied to my license plate and it knew I had already validated. Anyway, most of this sounds a bit unnecessary, but I liked how I could validate my parking myself pretty quickly and easily. Normally I need the help of a staff member to do it which takes time and I often forget to ask.

[uptown74]

Ok this makes me really happy. I drive by this ratty looking strip mall everyday with hopes that someone would eventually do something with it....maybe it will finally happen....


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ing-center

[cowboyeagle05]

My friends and I have been discussing this one on our Facebook and the big thing was, of course, the affordability problem. The gay community that lives in the area is deathly afraid of losing their neighborhood to high priced retail and apartments. This shopping center while not beautiful represents to them another brick in the wall down for affordable living in Oak Lawn. All I see now when these projects are announced are angry comments about it.

[tamtagon]

The segment of the gay community without disposable income (younger folks) are wasting their energy if they expect much affordable housing to be part of the Oak Lawn Avenue corridor gentrification. The closer you get to Highland Park, the more expensive it will be. The gay community should do what they've always done, direct and manage gentrification in the poor parts of town --- there's still an abundance of that adjacent to The Crossroads. This group will not lose their neighborhood to high priced retail and apartments unless they forget they started the neighborhood evolution and need to remain the driver of the evolution -- there's plenty of gay money to be spent on high priced retail and apartments on the Turtle Creek side of The Crossroads to keep that part of town firmly identified as gay or gay/bi-friendly.

Those lamenting being priced out of the area should realize the focus needs to be on expanding the footprint of the gayborhood. Maple Avenue is in danger of being swept away by the collective corporate boardroom of America, the conversion of the former Parkland Hospital into the region's most expensive office space has been a HUGE deal, and could sanitize and spread across the area.

[tamtagon]

Four of biggest gay bars in the state are on the same block and owned by the same company, that's what keeps the bars in check.

RoundUp is just as popular as S4/Caven bars and its owned by independent owners. A key point for anyone that is curious Caven Enterprises is employee owned.

I didn't know that, thanks!

I still expect more from Caven. I want to be specific, and I'll try to collect my thoughts.

In addition to fully supporting a dynamic complete street renovation to favor pedestrians along Cedar Springs from Turtle Creek Boulevard to Love Field, I'd like to see Caven Enterprises lead a rezoning of Throckmorton from Lemmon to Maple. Any residential address on this stretch of Throckmorton should be allowed to operate as a business, alcohol sales until 2:00 if that's the business of the establishment. Cedar Springs should be groomed for streetcar/rail to Love Field.

Sam Houston Elementary School is rebuilt at either Lee Park, Craddock Park (original site of the actual Cedar Spring) or Maria Luna Park. Elementary schools need bigger playgrounds, especially Sam Houston, and that building needs to be repurposed into non-profit LGBTQ(lmnop haha) office space, performing arts venue and low cost Artists & Performers residential.

[JohnMcKee]

The gays have started moving to Oak Cliff.

[cowboyeagle05]

Some did years ago and now they live everywhere. Last I checked the gays, me being one, just started integrating without much concern for a gaybourhood while there is still a fairly large contingent that clings to the safety of finding people like themselves in one area. I have even started seeing Drag shows take off in Deep Ellum as alternative entertainment.

[cowboyeagle05]

Btw there is a construction fence around the old Cafe Brazil property and some of the side patio concrete has been torn up but it looks like for access to maybe an underground pipe. I would normally just say something probably froze and they had to repair it but why put up a construction fence around the entire property?

[tamtagon]

I may be wrong about this, but gurl I know I'm not... while the importance and awareness of a coherent cohesive gay oriented entertainment conglomerate anchoring a gayborhood has become less important in the lives of maturing teens and young adults, the existence of these destinations has not. As more and more neighborhoods become gay friendly and "gay" entertainers find work at a greater variety of venues, the destination gayborhood like Dallas has on Cedar Springs becomes even more important, counter-intuitive as that may seem.