Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Honestly, because The methodist church and the Baptist Church are close to each other... They create a huge dead space that offers nothing to downtown Dallas outside of Sunday. I'm surprised people even go there if "parkin'" is so bad... There's literally hundreds of Baptist/Methodist churches around... Seeing a cool old building go out for a stinker project is sad

This is what is most surprising to me. I know this doesn't apply to everyone who goes to this church, but, like you said, there are a lot of people who can't stand the idea of going Downtown, hate dealing with the roads and parking situation, and would gladly choose a suburban location. Even with the addition of a parking garage right next door, a suburban location would still be significantly more convenient for these particular suburbanites, so I'm surprising so many people still choose to go here.

DPatel304 wrote:

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Honestly, because The methodist church and the Baptist Church are close to each other... They create a huge dead space that offers nothing to downtown Dallas outside of Sunday. I'm surprised people even go there if "parkin'" is so bad... There's literally hundreds of Baptist/Methodist churches around... Seeing a cool old building go out for a stinker project is sad

This is what is most surprising to me. I know this doesn't apply to everyone who goes to this church, but, like you said, there are a lot of people who can't stand the idea of going Downtown, hate dealing with the roads and parking situation, and would gladly choose a suburban location. Even with the addition of a parking garage right next door, a suburban location would still be significantly more convenient for these particular suburbanites, so I'm surprising so many people still choose to go here.

I'm hardly a fan of FBC or their beliefs, but this whole thread has decomposed into a whole lot of people projecting their personal issues with religion onto a dilapidated building that no one else was interested in buying/renovating. Lots of people attend FBC, so many that there's a perceived need to add a parking garage (which by the way serves office workers during the week, so they're hardly going unused). It's honestly hypocritical for people who dislike FBC for telling people how to live their lives to...tell FBC and its members how to live their lives. It's very clear that some on this forum get very petulant about not having dictatorial powers over who's allowed to build what in the city. At least Phil Kingston was smart enough to stay out of it and save the taxpayers from footing the bill for another lawsuit...

I don't have an issue with their beliefs or religion at all. I guess I'm just confused why there needs to be more convient parking here. If convenient parking is what the people want, then it would seem a suburban location would be more of a win-win, no? Perhaps I'm missing something about this particular location though.

If people are walking, biking, or taking the DART to this church, then fantastic, I welcome more people like that. If people drive to this church, but then go somewhere Downtown for a meal afterwards, then that's great too. If people are literally just zipping in and out of Downtown as quickly as possible, then wouldn't it make sense for those people to find a more convenient church? I suppose they have their reasons, otherwise they would have done so already, I'm just curious what the logic is behind it. Also, don't mistake this as me saying those people don't belong Downtown, but I'm just curious why they would want to.

This doesn't just apply to this chuch either. I have a lot of friends out in the suburbs who hate coming anywhere near Downtown, and that's fine, so they just frequent restaurants/shops in the suburbs.

Also, sorry if I offended you or anyone else with any of my previous posts. I didn't mean to come off as unwelcoming towards anyone based on their religion or beliefs.

DPatel304 wrote:I don't have an issue with their beliefs or religion at all. I guess I'm just confused why there needs to be more convient parking here. If convenient parking is what the people want, then it would seem a suburban location would be more of a win-win, no? Perhaps I'm missing something about this particular location though.

If people are walking, biking, or taking the DART to this church, then fantastic, I welcome more people like that. If people drive to this church, but then go somewhere Downtown for a meal afterwards, then that's great too. If people are literally just zipping in and out of Downtown as quickly as possible, then wouldn't it make sense for those people to find a more convenient church? I suppose they have their reasons, otherwise they would have done so already, I'm just curious what the logic is behind it. Also, don't mistake this as me saying those people don't belong Downtown, but I'm just curious why they would want to.

This doesn't just apply to this chuch either. I have a lot of friends out in the suburbs who hate coming anywhere near Downtown, and that's fine, so they just frequent restaurants/shops in the suburbs.

Also, sorry if I offended you or anyone else with any of my previous posts. I didn't mean to come off as unwelcoming towards anyone based on their religion or beliefs.

I didn't mean to come off as harsh (not to you, at least ), it's just annoying to see others in this thread talk about revoking a church's tax-exempt status because FBC advocates for things they dislike when those same forum members support all sorts of secular tax-exempt organizations that are just as pushy about how people should go about their lives.

FBC is not a "new" church - the original building dating to the 1800s is still there (albeit dwarfed by new construction all around it), so I'd imagine there's some level of connection to the original location.

As far as the parking question, I think the mental calculus is different for a family going to church vs. parents considering their individual commutes to work. When I worked downtown, I had several coworkers who also attended FBC (they weren't shy about telling you that) and would take DART to work because 1) traffic is worse on weekdays and 2) they only needed to buy 1 fare, and usually it was through the employer pass program and a lot cheaper. When you add a spouse and 2-4 kids on a Sunday morning, it means extra fares for the family, plus traffic isn't that bad, and they may run other errands along the way, so driving (and parking) is a no-brainer for most.

I think muncien is right that FBC has added a lot of activity to downtown in the last decade, and it's pretty clear that FBC isn't crowding out the sort of developments that Matt777 and others would prefer (as evidenced by the numerous other vacant buildings and surface lots that have been that way at least as long as 505 Ervay has been vacant). Downtown just isn't at the point where we can be choosy about who is developing what and throwing up roadblocks to anything that doesn't fit with someone's personal vision.

DPatel304, you have never come across as vitriolic in any post of yours that I have ever seen.

TNWE is very clearly referring to others.

I have stated before that I have imagined this building being repurposed into residential. I can fantasize that it would be great for the area and would energize the streets. But the owners (and potential developers with money to do a conversion) clearly disagree and wish to prioritize their property in other ways.

C’est la vie.

Change may come from lobbying the city. Change will not come from admonishing property owners for using their property as they see fit.

That seems awful anti-Texan to this transplant.

TNWE wrote:I didn't mean to come off as harsh (not to you, at least ), it's just annoying to see others in this thread talk about revoking a church's tax-exempt status because FBC advocates for things they dislike when those same forum members support all sorts of secular tax-exempt organizations that are just as pushy about how people should go about their lives.

Haha, gotcha, just making sure.

TNWE wrote:As far as the parking question, I think the mental calculus is different for a family going to church vs. parents considering their individual commutes to work. When I worked downtown, I had several coworkers who also attended FBC (they weren't shy about telling you that) and would take DART to work because 1) traffic is worse on weekdays and 2) they only needed to buy 1 fare, and usually it was through the employer pass program and a lot cheaper. When you add a spouse and 2-4 kids on a Sunday morning, it means extra fares for the family, plus traffic isn't that bad, and they may run other errands along the way, so driving (and parking) is a no-brainer for most.

But wouldn't said family find it more convenient to go to a suburban church where parking is even easier? That's what I'm wondering. I get that Sunday's it is easier to get in and out of Downtown by car, but it is even easier still to get to a suburban church. Basically, if convenience if what this church is looking for, it doesn't get more convenient than the suburbs. There must be something else about this church that is drawing people in.

TNWE wrote:I think muncien is right that FBC has added a lot of activity to downtown in the last decade, and it's pretty clear that FBC isn't crowding out the sort of developments that Matt777 and others would prefer (as evidenced by the numerous other vacant buildings and surface lots that have been that way at least as long as 505 Ervay has been vacant). Downtown just isn't at the point where we can be choosy about who is developing what and throwing up roadblocks to anything that doesn't fit with someone's personal vision.

True, but we can still criticize, and this isn't the first Downtown development that has been criticized. But at the end of the day, it really boils down to the fact that Downtown still isn't at the point where we can be choosy. If it were at that point, this development wouldn't be happening, and the market would dictate there is a better use for it.

TNWE wrote:
I think muncien is right that FBC has added a lot of activity to downtown in the last decade, and it's pretty clear that FBC isn't crowding out the sort of developments that Matt777 and others would prefer (as evidenced by the numerous other vacant buildings and surface lots that have been that way at least as long as 505 Ervay has been vacant). Downtown just isn't at the point where we can be choosy about who is developing what and throwing up roadblocks to anything that doesn't fit with someone's personal vision.

This is an urban development forum. I can criticize the lack of pedestrian friendly developments and vibrancy downtown, and the continued destruction of architecturally historic structures, especially if it is happening right in my neighborhood. I never brought up religion, or even alluded to it.

Sorry, not sorry.

And just because there are empty lots in Downtown does not mean we should continue to build massive parking structures that strengthen and solidify the car dependency of our urban core. Especially one that will be used for basically one day per week, which is the nature of church traffic. Tearing down one of the last streamline moderne large buildings in Dallas is just the cherry on an awful move by FBC.

Vacant buildings, where? Just a few semi-empty ones that have not been updated since the 80s. The fact that literally dozens of older buildings have been re-purposed downtown shows that FBC could have come up with a better solution for their parking needs. There are dozens of massive garages in the adjacent office buildings that sit empty on the weekends.... a contract with one of those would have solved it. They have destroyed several beautiful old buildings as they re-imagined their campus, and I think they just wanted another old building gone because it's not new and gleaming like the rest of their campus. And they have the money and power to do what they want, surrounding neighborhood be damned.

Suburban neighborhoods have zoning that protect the "suburbaness" and low density that they want. Urban, walkable neighborhoods should have the same zoning and code requirements to preserve the urban fabric, walkability, and pedestrian friendliness of those areas. I can't go up to a subdivision in north Dallas and tear down a house to build a 20 story parking garage or a highrise. So I don't buy the "property rights" bs argument. It's just a lack of code evolution in Dallas that allows this junk to be done. City Hall wouldn't know proper urban code if it smacked them in the face. I believe it is still $1,000 a year cost to have an overhang on a sidewalk cafe, or potted plants on the sidewalk, but if you wan't to destroy a neighborhood for parking, sure go ahead!!!

DPatel304 wrote:But wouldn't said family find it more convenient to go to a suburban church where parking is even easier? That's what I'm wondering. I get that Sunday's it is easier to get in and out of Downtown by car, but it is even easier still to get to a suburban church. Basically, if convenience if what this church is looking for, it doesn't get more convenient than the suburbs. There must be something else about this church that is drawing people in.

Strictly anecdotal, but my grandparents started going to First Presbyterian downtown when they moved to East Dallas as a young married couple with 1 kid. They moved to Farmer's Branch in the 50s and had 5 more kids over the years, but they came downtown for church every Sunday (more than that really, they were very involved) for as long as they were physically able. They did that because they had found their church "home" and weren't about to leave it. They both had their funeral services in that lovely little chapel. I'm not even religious, but I still go with my extended family to Central Texas for the church retreat every summer.

Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me at all if FBC has a similar multi-generational following.

Jay9398 wrote:Strictly anecdotal, but my grandparents started going to First Presbyterian downtown when they moved to East Dallas as a young married couple with 1 kid. They moved to Farmer's Branch in the 50s and had 5 more kids over the years, but they came downtown for church every Sunday (more than that really, they were very involved) for as long as they were physically able. They did that because they had found their church "home" and weren't about to leave it. They both had their funeral services in that lovely little chapel. I'm not even religious, but I still go with my extended family to Central Texas for the church retreat every summer.

Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me at all if FBC has a similar multi-generational following.

Makes sense, that's gotta be a big reason why, and I can definitely respect that. I'm not religious or a church goer, but can definitely understand the importance of the community at a particular church.

Is this the work of Matt777? Haha

If it were me, I would have made it much larger and different font.

So this is being imploded on Saturday June 29th. Actual implosion time is 7:30 AM.

Another kinda of cool little building of yesteryear that might have been something else, but hey this is Dallas.

An exact use for the 11-story office building has not been determined, a spokeswoman said. But in general, it will be used to accommodate the explosive growth of a church that now has a membership of 13,000.

I can't believe the city is letting them demo a historic building without a plan to replace it. Looks like it's going to be a parking lot for another two decades! WTG First Baptist!

Christian privilege is a strong wind to fight and in this state, if you promote yourself as a Christian church you get to do whatever you want. City Hall has never shown a history fighting FBC on any of its plans so why start now.

Whatever the dynamic or history is, this sucks. Shame on them.

Such is the history of churches everywhere. One tries to feed the poor the other focuses on glitzy HD screens to ignore bible verse and lessons of humanity and community enrichment.

"Mom who are those guys trying to bathe from the fountains outside church?" "Sweetie security will cart them off soon ignore them"

Tomorrow morning:

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Downt ... 31001.html

Another one bites the dust.

And just like that.

Soon to be another parking garage?

Tnexster wrote:Soon to be another parking garage?

Yep.

Parking lot. It is my understanding they don't yet have any plans to build a garage.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Parking lot. It is my understanding they don't yet have any plans to build a garage.

What a waste.

I could be wrong I will admit what I know I heard through the grapevine, not an official city document or anything. My understanding is they would like to build a garage there that FBC could use and split the cost with another nearby building like what they did across the street.

I actually don't know what's worse, a surface lot or a parking garage with no retail.

mdg109 wrote:I actually don't know what's worse, a surface lot or a parking garage with no retail.

Same. It seems like a huge waste to demolish a building just for a simple surface lot. Then again, a garage is way more permanent, and we'd be (likely) stuck with that thing for decades.

Garage District Tower 4 looks ready to go vertical.

Yuck, I hope the City has required something aesthetically pleasing and possibly screened in. Retail storefronts on the street level would be nice as well.

^Haha they don't make First Baptist do anything.

FB doesn't release any renders or make announcements as to what is coming here. They know the development is pure ass.

How is this church so popular? Where do its ...patrons..? flock..? (I know there is a word for it but it's escaping me) live?? I can't imagine that there is a sizeable church going crowd in the downtown or even uptown area, and this thing has been around for ages. Do people really commute into downtown dallas from the suburbs just to worship here? I know that Jeffries is quite the celebrity and all but that still surprises me.

Congregation might be the word you're looking for and yes, they primarily commute from the 'burbs, which explains much of how the church is arranged (parking garages, sky bridges, etc).

First Baptist Academy of Dallas recently moved from the downtown campus to far East Dallas. This location adjacent to the Mesquite city limits is a pretty good indicator where many of the congregation live.

Although if we want to be straightforward, maybe there are either 1,250,000 Dallas citizens outside DT/UT who don't "live out in the burbs", detached from DT/UT, or else the entire working pattern of the city *is* still very close to the postwar level of car orientation of the suburbs. I can't think of a large institution of any kind that has been assembling the majority of its members from its own immediate neighborhood on foot, and FBC just doesn't use the horizontal parking area that a hospital or a community college, a country club or a Fair Park do.

Yeah, I have a distant family living in Rowlett who went before Jefferies and hate his leadership but still go. They don't even agree with his anti-gay stance but they for some reason can't bring themselves to change.

Personal rant here... for context. Feel free to skip this post...
I've mentioned this before, but while never a 'member' I was a frequent attendee to FBD. I've always personally struggled with churches and religion in general, despite being a firm believer. Finding a quality pastor/preacher is NOT easy.
But the quality of 90% of what is preached at FBD is top notch, extremely informative, deeply researched, and still provided in a manner at which every day people can comprehend. After a few visits I was 'hooked', and even after moving to the burbs and finding myself personally conflicted with the strong 'pro Trump' message, I continued to visit periodically (I really don't mind people being 'pro Trump'... I just didn't think his behaviors should be endorsed by a church).
I do still do believe this is actually a VERY good church, despite some flaws (which can be found any group of people, anywhere in the history of man). So, I do understand it's relevance, and they do care deeply about the city and downtown itself, even if they don't express or execute that care in a very efficient manner.
This completes the rant...

muncien wrote:Personal rant here... for context. Feel free to skip this post...
I've mentioned this before, but while never a 'member' I was a frequent attendee to FBD. I've always personally struggled with churches and religion in general, despite being a firm believer. Finding a quality pastor/preacher is NOT easy.
But the quality of 90% of what is preached at FBD is top notch, extremely informative, deeply researched, and still provided in a manner at which every day people can comprehend. After a few visits I was 'hooked', and even after moving to the burbs and finding myself personally conflicted with the strong 'pro Trump' message, I continued to visit periodically (I really don't mind people being 'pro Trump'... I just didn't think his behaviors should be endorsed by a church).
I do still do believe this is actually a VERY good church, despite some flaws (which can be found any group of people, anywhere in the history of man). So, I do understand it's relevance, and they do care deeply about the city and downtown itself, even if they don't express or execute that care in a very efficient manner.
This completes the rant...

As rants go, I felt yours was very thoughtful and well-expressed.

As a person of faith myself I can understand not agreeing with everything the church's leadership is saying. I live in N. Oak Cliff and commute to Munger Place Church, so the idea people drive outside their "area" is normal to me. My biggest issues aside from politics with FBD, and especially Jefferies, is it feels too sterile and corporate. I like old intimate churches. I don't really love the church is taking a decent amount of real estate right in the middle of downtown for just....parking. I know it's a mega church so they need it, but I still think there is better alternatives.

I dream they will move the church and parking garages to the sea of parking lots in east downtown. It's height restricted there I'm sure so no issue on building a new church and parking garages. This would free up central downtown for more....skyscrapers.

They must've gotten a massive discount on those precast concrete panels because here is project #3 with the same faux 3D brick pattern.

This is one of those precast lego type structures?

Ikea makes parking garages flat-packed now...

lakewoodhobo wrote:They must've gotten a massive discount on those precast concrete panels because here is project #3 with the same faux 3D brick pattern.

Unknown-3.jpeg

What can I say bro.. Jesus Saves $$

lakewoodhobo wrote:They must've gotten a massive discount on those precast concrete panels because here is project #3 with the same faux 3D brick pattern.

Unknown-3.jpeg

Disgusting.

I wonder if they are planning to stop using the Ross tower garage space on Ross Avenue once this is complete?