North Dallas: Galleria

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 05 Jun 2023 13:43

The Galleria store already has a better looking storefront than the NorthPark one and I fear this remodel is going to continue that trend. I wish they did more to the NorthPark storefront when they expanded it but they made it look even worse, especially in comparison to other LV storefronts that have opened recently, including Clearfork and Legacy West.

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acclar11
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby acclar11 » 05 Jun 2023 14:08

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
acclar11 wrote:There were TDLR permits someone posted a while back.


https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2023010225

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2023013937


Thank you. For the record, that permit for the "main store" had not been previously posted here. So, LV will apparently be 6,337 square feet. Bigger than their new Legacy West store! Interesting. Do we know how big their Galleria store was previously?

It's about 3500 sq. feet now. I think a little more. But this store only sells handbags and sunglasses.

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rono3849
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby rono3849 » 05 Jun 2023 15:04

When are they going to go forward with their make over of the Galleria and tear down the Southern wing of the mall to be replaced by a new hotel, office tower, and residential tower? They need to proceed on this project ASAP. Seeing the heap of debris, formally known as Valley View Mall, sitting less than a mile East of the Galleria should be a lesson on letting a mall slip into becoming an undesirable destination. The Galleria has a lot of challenges now.

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Tucy
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Tucy » 05 Jun 2023 15:10

rono3849 wrote:When are they going to go forward with their make over of the Galleria and tear down the Southern wing of the mall to be replaced by a new hotel, office tower, and residential tower? They need to proceed on this project ASAP. Seeing the heap of debris, formally known as Valley View Mall, sitting less than a mile East of the Galleria should be a lesson on letting a mall slip into becoming an undesirable destination. The Galleria has a lot of challenges now.


It sounds like that "plan" is completely up in the air, since the Galleria was repossessed by its lenders . . .

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Addison
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Addison » 05 Jun 2023 15:33

rono3849 wrote:When are they going to go forward with their make over of the Galleria and tear down the Southern wing of the mall to be replaced by a new hotel, office tower, and residential tower? They need to proceed on this project ASAP. Seeing the heap of debris, formally known as Valley View Mall, sitting less than a mile East of the Galleria should be a lesson on letting a mall slip into becoming an undesirable destination. The Galleria has a lot of challenges now.


There's also the fact that:

1. Financing/interest rates have gotten much tighter since the plan was announced.

2. The current management team has no prior experience managing a mall the scale of the Galleria (I still think they're in over their heads).

3. The demand for more office & hotel space around the Galleria is nebulous right now given it's currently struggling to attract/keep major corporate tenants (I.E. the Crowne Plaza in Addison has been shuttered completely and the Plush Hotel project has stalled).

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 05 Jun 2023 16:07

Addison wrote:
rono3849 wrote:When are they going to go forward with their make over of the Galleria and tear down the Southern wing of the mall to be replaced by a new hotel, office tower, and residential tower? They need to proceed on this project ASAP. Seeing the heap of debris, formally known as Valley View Mall, sitting less than a mile East of the Galleria should be a lesson on letting a mall slip into becoming an undesirable destination. The Galleria has a lot of challenges now.


There's also the fact that:

1. Financing/interest rates have gotten much tighter since the plan was announced.

2. The current management team has no prior experience managing a mall the scale of the Galleria (I still think they're in over their heads).

3. The demand for more office & hotel space around the Galleria is nebulous right now given it's currently struggling to attract/keep major corporate tenants (I.E. the Crowne Plaza in Addison has been shuttered completely and the Plush Hotel project has stalled).


Second point isn’t entirely true. They own La Palmera and Market Street. Market Street has opened its own luxury stores within recent years, such as Louis Vuitton and Gucci. La Palmera is the main mall in Corpus Christi, which is probably a huge advantage, although it too has maintained a steady mix of national tenants, and has recently brought the first Cheesecake Factory to the coastal bend.

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Addison
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Addison » 05 Jun 2023 16:58

Proquest20 wrote:
Addison wrote:
rono3849 wrote:When are they going to go forward with their make over of the Galleria and tear down the Southern wing of the mall to be replaced by a new hotel, office tower, and residential tower? They need to proceed on this project ASAP. Seeing the heap of debris, formally known as Valley View Mall, sitting less than a mile East of the Galleria should be a lesson on letting a mall slip into becoming an undesirable destination. The Galleria has a lot of challenges now.


There's also the fact that:

1. Financing/interest rates have gotten much tighter since the plan was announced.

2. The current management team has no prior experience managing a mall the scale of the Galleria (I still think they're in over their heads).

3. The demand for more office & hotel space around the Galleria is nebulous right now given it's currently struggling to attract/keep major corporate tenants (I.E. the Crowne Plaza in Addison has been shuttered completely and the Plush Hotel project has stalled).


Second point isn’t entirely true. They own La Palmera and Market Street. Market Street has opened its own luxury stores within recent years, such as Louis Vuitton and Gucci. La Palmera is the main mall in Corpus Christi, which is probably a huge advantage, although it too has maintained a steady mix of national tenants, and has recently brought the first Cheesecake Factory to the coastal bend.


La Palmera is a relatively tiny mall though, not really on the scale of the Galleria.

And the other "malls" they manage are more like lifestyle centers (I.E. no department store anchors, far less required upkeep/maintenance, less of a variety in tenants, etc.)

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 05 Jun 2023 18:04

Addison wrote:
Proquest20 wrote:
Addison wrote:
There's also the fact that:

1. Financing/interest rates have gotten much tighter since the plan was announced.

2. The current management team has no prior experience managing a mall the scale of the Galleria (I still think they're in over their heads).

3. The demand for more office & hotel space around the Galleria is nebulous right now given it's currently struggling to attract/keep major corporate tenants (I.E. the Crowne Plaza in Addison has been shuttered completely and the Plush Hotel project has stalled).


Second point isn’t entirely true. They own La Palmera and Market Street. Market Street has opened its own luxury stores within recent years, such as Louis Vuitton and Gucci. La Palmera is the main mall in Corpus Christi, which is probably a huge advantage, although it too has maintained a steady mix of national tenants, and has recently brought the first Cheesecake Factory to the coastal bend.


La Palmera is a relatively tiny mall though, not really on the scale of the Galleria.

And the other "malls" they manage are more like lifestyle centers (I.E. no department store anchors, far less required upkeep/maintenance, less of a variety in tenants, etc.)


Even so, the Cheesecake Factory, Louis Vuitton, and Gucci are major catches for the centres they are in. Intimissimi, Garage, and Mango are huge catches for the Galleria, even if they aren’t luxurious, as they could have opened at Park Lane or NorthPark. Galleria mall management has experience working with high profile tenants, and the same should be true whether they are managing a mall like La Palmera or a mall like the Galleria. I’d say that the main issue that the Galleria has had is that management has never owned the property, even under Simon, and with the mall going back to lenders, it’ll be even more difficult for redevelopment to take place.

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Addison
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Addison » 05 Jun 2023 19:18

Proquest20 wrote:
Addison wrote:
Proquest20 wrote:
Second point isn’t entirely true. They own La Palmera and Market Street. Market Street has opened its own luxury stores within recent years, such as Louis Vuitton and Gucci. La Palmera is the main mall in Corpus Christi, which is probably a huge advantage, although it too has maintained a steady mix of national tenants, and has recently brought the first Cheesecake Factory to the coastal bend.


La Palmera is a relatively tiny mall though, not really on the scale of the Galleria.

And the other "malls" they manage are more like lifestyle centers (I.E. no department store anchors, far less required upkeep/maintenance, less of a variety in tenants, etc.)


Even so, the Cheesecake Factory, Louis Vuitton, and Gucci are major catches for the centres they are in. Intimissimi, Garage, and Mango are huge catches for the Galleria, even if they aren’t luxurious, as they could have opened at Park Lane or NorthPark. Galleria mall management has experience working with high profile tenants, and the same should be true whether they are managing a mall like La Palmera or a mall like the Galleria. I’d say that the main issue that the Galleria has had is that management has never owned the property, even under Simon, and with the mall going back to lenders, it’ll be even more difficult for redevelopment to take place.


None the less, I feel the Galleria is at a stage where it desperately needs management that knows how to successfully run superregional shopping malls, and not one that wants to use it as an experiment or learning curve.

Simon definitely did a better job keeping/attracting tenants. Before Intimissimi, Mango, Garage and Stance, Trademark's only real get was Apple, and that was by virtue of dumb luck with no real effort on their part. And their failures (shrinking of Nordstrom, closure of Belk, loss of Amerrican Girl, loss of Swarovsk, loss of Wrangler, loss of Brahmin, loss of Pottery Barn, loss of Williams-Sonoma, etc.) by far outweighs those wins.

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mhainli
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby mhainli » 10 Jun 2023 10:48

rono3849 wrote:When are they going to go forward with their make over of the Galleria and tear down the Southern wing of the mall to be replaced by a new hotel, office tower, and residential tower? They need to proceed on this project ASAP. Seeing the heap of debris, formally known as Valley View Mall, sitting less than a mile East of the Galleria should be a lesson on letting a mall slip into becoming an undesirable destination. The Galleria has a lot of challenges now.

The conceptual presentation of a tear down on the south end, replaced by hotel, office and residential wasn’t thought through very well - if at all. If constructed like shown it would have killed the south end of the mall - no retail parking, no sight lines to indicate that there even is a mall. Restaurants sprinkled around the new towers - again no parking and difficult to see/find in the midst of the towers. Whatever is done this time better be fully vetted by retail/mall experts that know the market and the multitude of challenges that the site has. The Galleria already has more mixed use than any mall in this area and it already constrains user friendliness for its retail patrons. If an additional tower or two are placed somewhere all of these things need to be considered. Perhaps the American Girl location could handle a different use?

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Casa Linda
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Casa Linda » 10 Jun 2023 11:42

A simple answer but this is really it for me:

I go to North Park a lot and buy a lot of stuff and like it because I park in the new garages and easily walk in.
I avoid Galleria because the parking situation is terrible.

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mhainli
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby mhainli » 10 Jun 2023 12:34

Casa Linda wrote:A simple answer but this is really it for me:

I go to North Park a lot and buy a lot of stuff and like it because I park in the new garages and easily walk in.
I avoid Galleria because the parking situation is terrible.


Yes indeed, the “ramp type” and oddly shaped garages at Gal are a big negative. As part of their demo plans on the south end, I’d recommend tearing down the crazy Blue Garage and build back a rectangular one like Macy’s NP - Level 1 parking is Level 1 mall, etc. Since they likely don’t want to spend money on such things, the new garage would have to be part of a reimagined new store/theater/retail concept on the south end - which Gal has always needed, if only to take advantage of the highest profile end of the mall.
Last edited by mhainli on 11 Jun 2023 13:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Matt777
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Matt777 » 10 Jun 2023 13:04

My crazy idea to revitalize the Galleria would be all about taking advantage of the large, sunny, climate controlled linear interior space and making it a very visually appealing indoor garden/park of sorts. Lots of plants and water features, the kind of place people would travel to to take instagram photos at. A total reinvention. Then, increasing non-retail density by cramming as many residential towers, office towers, and hotel towers on to the site connecting to the "indoor park." They could do this on both remaining surface parcels, as well as in place of certain portions of unused retail like the old Belk/Saks space.

Skating rink would have to be repurposed for this, maybe moved to empty retail space somewhere.... I know it' very slightly iconic, but how many shopping dollars does the rink really bring in? Maybe even put a creek of sorts, with waterfalls, running linearly down the first floor.

The Belk and American Girl sites could probably host 3 towers alone. Make the atrium worth something, then subdivide those plots and sell to the likes of Streetlights development, hotel developers, etc...

Most of the retail facing the atrium could stay, and would eventually fill up with retail and dining tenants if foot traffic and daytime population increased with more residents/office workers/hotel guests. Throw in a Food Hall facing the new garden atrium too. Isn't there a huge, long abandoned circa 1980s gym above the Galleria that could be repurposed for something, like an entertainment space?

And to clarify, by indoor garden/park, I mean something spectacular along the lines of "The Jewel" at Singapore Changi Airport, but made to fit the Galleria linear layout:

Image

Image

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I45Tex
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 12 Jun 2023 04:48

I'm not making a case for longdistance interstate high speed rail vs airports (and surely we are closer to Singapore in that sense than Tokyo) but Japan Railways builds station galleria-type superstructures of mixed-use concourse / office towers / etc over its HSR station real estate, and if we can imagine a future Super Cotton Belt (not necessarily mass transit, not necessarily DART owned nor operated) that buckles McKinney National Airport to DFW to Love with the spokes simply meeting at the Galleria, it would have a new feeling of centrality that it definitely lacks in the 2000s - 2020s. On that note, since it's been an era of northward regional growth during that era, the Galleria could feel like the hub the way that Texas Stadium and the Cowboys in that little bathtub of freeways used to too

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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 12 Jun 2023 04:50

I like your analyses Matt and mhainli. They're not excluded by Casa Linda's of course but they make it worth the trouble to pursue

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I45Tex
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 12 Jun 2023 04:53

People notice that Hines reused the skating rink court idea here that had been a hit in Houston at his first cottonfield edge city experiment. There is an excellent Texas Monthly article from more than 30 years ago whose writer carefully describes (with interviews!) incremental enhancements of the retail layout strategies used in Dallas Galleria by his team compared to those he started with in Houston, however.

The rooftop fitness? The dark pan's labyrinthine jumble of split level ramp garages? Those were carried over by his team and I don't know how much they would say they incrementally tried to revise those things. Not everything can be priority.

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I45Tex
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 12 Jun 2023 15:21

...
I45Tex wrote:we can imagine a future Super Cotton Belt (not necessarily mass transit, not necessarily DART owned nor operated) that buckles McKinney National Airport to DFW to Love with the spokes simply meeting at the Galleria, it would have a new feeling of centrality that it definitely lacks [and so]
the Galleria could feel like the hub the way that Texas Stadium and the Cowboys in that little bathtub of freeways used to too


A fourth spoke to Will Rogers World Airport, via Denton and downtown OKC, would be a fun pork barrel project in the second Buttigieg administration. And an extension from McKinney to Bentonville... ;)

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mhainli
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby mhainli » 13 Jun 2023 17:17

I45Tex wrote:People notice that Hines reused the skating rink court idea here that had been a hit in Houston at his first cottonfield edge city experiment. There is an excellent Texas Monthly article from more than 30 years ago whose writer carefully describes (with interviews!) incremental enhancements of the retail layout strategies used in Dallas Galleria by his team compared to those he started with in Houston, however.

The rooftop fitness? The dark pan's labyrinthine jumble of split level ramp garages? Those were carried over by his team and I don't know how much they would say they incrementally tried to revise those things. Not everything can be priority.


I’d be interested in that Texas Monthly article if you have access to it. If I were guessing the majority of the intended improvements to Dal Gal were on the interior layout - and it is more linear and easier to navigate, etc once inside. However the Dal site is certainly more constrained and was made even more so by the DNT extension north of I635 back in the 80s. Moreover surface parking, sight lines, access, etc. have suffered with each additional structure built on the site. Mixed use is good but not if it negatively affects the shopper experience, ingress/egress which the mall depends on. The folks in charge of redevelopment should carefully consider these things or the”improvements” themselves will be more “nails in the coffin”.

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I45Tex
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 14 Jun 2023 12:05

1980
https://www.texasmonthly.com/arts-enter ... -galleria/

1981
https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/ ... uper-mall/

From the latter:

“We are going after the prestige firms, the success-oriented businessmen,” explains Bill Knopick, Hines’ regional marketing manager, who is responsible for renting the space. “We are going after the top 20 percent of the market.” In other words, they want the sort of people who are delighted to pay extra for a floor-to-ceiling teak door, brass fixtures and a prestigious address. Is this the same compulsion that drives every real estate agent in town to buy a Cadillac? Knopick flashes a tolerant smile and says, “Not Cadillacs. Ferraris.” So far, about 10 percent of the Ferrari space has been leased. Knopick isn’t worried. As construction continues, rents will rise.

In the next corridor there are pictures of other Hines projects, displayed like the artwork that many of them, creatures of architects such as I.M. Pei or Philip Johnson, are. In the corner that should have been the place of honor, however, is merely a blotchy black and white photograph of what looks like the interior of the mall’s center-court area. But suddenly the ho-hum picture is whisked aside with a hiss of compressed air, and one beholds a perfect scale model of the center court, scaled one inch to the foot, about the size of a suburban kitchen. There is a glittering ice rink and above it three levels of chromed, glassed and mirrored mall space, capped by a soaring skylight that dashes into center court with a crystalline flash of circles, squares, triangles and parabolas. Even the formerly wooden people glitter, having donned suits of aluminum foil. Each saw-toothed balcony and each walkway is recessed 15 feet closer to the wall than the level below it, so that shoppers on each of the mall’s levels can see the fronts of all the stores on other floors. This is a major coup for members of the Hines design team, one of many touches enabling them to create a four-level mall while most other developers were afraid to go beyond one or two. The Galleria’s magnificent lines of sight from floor to floor make each part of the mall -but especially the center court – more of a “hot spot” than its pedestrian traffic count alone would warrant. A hot spot is any location seen by a great number of shoppers or having a particularly memorable location. The hotter a spot is the more rent it produces, and the Hines organization has gone to great pains to create at least five hot spots on each of their mall’s four levels: at the Saks and Field’s (the “anchor” stores) doors to the mall, where shoppers will enter from the parking lots, and at the stairs, escalators and elevators halfway to center court, and again at the rink area itself.

The Galleria is not a random jumble of stores and stairwells. It is a Venus’ flytrap designed to attract shoppers and to hold them happily for the longest possible time. Maybe “designed” is not the right word. Maybe the word is “engineered.” The parking design, for instance, not only funnels shoppers through the major anchors -a bonus for those stores – but it also forces them to walk the entire mall, twice, to shop at both Saks and Field’s. That is a bonus for every shopkeeper in the mall. The mall is long and narrow, which means that merchants get a higher ratio of display (front) footage to total square feet. That design is perhaps 50 percent more efficient, in terms of sales per square foot, than deep-dish stores, and it has been proven at Hines’ Houston Galleria II by the firm’s chief retail expert, Senior Vice President Robert Kaim. Since building a mall costs more than $100 a square foot, and since Hines charges merchants in his realm a flat fee plus a percentage of their gross receipts, higher efficiency is great news for the merchants and for Hines.

There’s more. In Houston, Kaim noticed that the upper mall level had less traffic than lower floors. Guess which level hungry office workers in Dallas will have to enter when they want to eat on the lower level? Right. And rest assured that if you spot your dream dress at the south end of the mall, you will have to hike a thousand feet or so to comparison shop. The idea, says Galleria Project Manager E. Staman Ogilvie, is not to keep you from comparison shopping but to tempt you with the goodies between dresses. Similarly, Kaim has isolated all recreational facilities and food, and most “family” shopping, on rink level. He did so not to punish the skaters but to protect high-fashion shoppers from assaults with ice cream cones, and to insure that when Mom brings the kids down for a skating session, the little angels will remember to clamor for ice cream, blue jeans and polo shirts. The skating rink itself is at the center of the mall not because that’s where it happened to fit, but because that’s where it can soothe and attract the most weary eyes. 'It’s a human mobile [sculpture],' Ogilvie explains."

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I45Tex
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 14 Jun 2023 12:54

I, in turn, would be interested in your, and others', thoughts about how your guesses matched up with this excerpt --- and then how your perception of future 2024+ Galleria management priorities compares to what this revealed about the priorities of Galleria management in 1981.

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mhainli
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby mhainli » 14 Jun 2023 16:39

I45Tex wrote:I, in turn, would be interested in your, and others', thoughts about how your guesses matched up with this excerpt --- and then how your perception of future 2024+ Galleria management priorities compares to what this revealed about the priorities of Galleria management in 1981.


Good stuff I45Tex. Interesting articles. Pretty sure I read that 1981 D Magazine piece back in the day. To answer your first query, it sounds like my general (and predictable) guess that the lessons Hines learned from HGal were mainly on the interior layout, ambient light, etc. Also interesting that Hines thought it important to maintain traffic circulation within the site. This goal likely couldn’t be kept with further development as time passed- Macys, etc. My general take away from the D Magazine article was that Hines spent much time trying to get it right….. Regarding your second query, I’ll give my thoughts and perceptions to your 2024+ Management priorities soon.
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby The_Overdog » 15 Jun 2023 09:34

I think ideas like that were cool in the '80s but consumers have so many more choices now, and window shoppers are currently not the most coveted market, so ideas designed to contain window-shoppers don't appeal to consumers who have more money than time. The exterior of North Park is kind of the same - but it's garages were better designed.

Also, if all of the Gallerias parking garages entered into stores it might be ok -it might convince them to spruce up those corridors and improve those connections. But they don't. Most are liminal spaces between stores. I think malls also have rules against sales spilling into the parking lot or using exterior space for sales -that makes those liminal entry spaces basically worthless to stores, so the mall itself has to fully fund improving them.

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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 15 Jun 2023 10:18

Your comment goes to the point that "location, location, location" may be the three biggest tailwinds in real estate but not the only decisive ones...

However AFAIK the five closest malls to Northpark are Galleria Dallas, Town East, Irving Mall, Grapevine Mills, and Vista Ridge in Lewisville. Just in Y2K that radius also supported Prestonwood Mall, Valley View Mall, Collin Creek Mall, Richardson Square Mall, Big Town Mall, Southwest Center Mall, Stonebriar Centre, Firewheel Town Center and possibly others.

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I45Tex
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 15 Jun 2023 10:25

If inner tier suburbs (including most of Dallas proper) were to adapt and densify enough, then there could still be enough time and money to go around to support this mall. But the tailwind is still in favor of greenfield developments. It might be different if civic groups and local trade groups pooled investors' money and hired KDC or Billingsley to develop projects as real legal fiduciaries.

Those who have to by law work in the best interests of the client's financial future (in this case city outcome) would create more adaptive neighborhoods and buildings; but currently when we partner with a development firm, they are not working at the accountability level of a financial advisor nor a licensed architect.

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Addison
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Addison » 15 Jun 2023 10:37

I45Tex wrote:Your comment goes to the point that "location, location, location" may be the three biggest tailwinds in real estate but not the only decisive ones...

However AFAIK the five closest malls to Northpark are Galleria Dallas, Town East, Irving Mall, Grapevine Mills, and Vista Ridge in Lewisville. Just in Y2K that radius also supported Prestonwood Mall, Valley View Mall, Collin Creek Mall, Richardson Square Mall, Big Town Mall, Southwest Center Mall, Stonebriar Centre, Firewheel Town Center and possibly others.


Galleria and Valley View depended in large part on customers in fast-growing West Plano and (to a lesser extent) Frisco, North Carrollton and The Colony trekking down the Tollway to shop there. Once Stonebriar, Willow Bend, and now Legacy West opened up, they no longer had to travel all the way to the Galleria or Valley View.

Combine thay with the triple whammy of:

*NorthPark expanding while having Neimans as an anchor (luxury boutiques like to cluster around luxury department stores)

*Saks cannibalizing sales at its Galleria store with a store right down the road at Willow Bend

*The I-635 construction in the early 2010s making accessibility harder

And the Galleria has taken quite the beaten as a destination since the 90s.

At this point, the issue really is that the DNT corridor is grossly overretailed.

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mhainli
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby mhainli » 15 Jun 2023 11:30

Addison wrote:
I45Tex wrote:Your comment goes to the point that "location, location, location" may be the three biggest tailwinds in real estate but not the only decisive ones...

However AFAIK the five closest malls to Northpark are Galleria Dallas, Town East, Irving Mall, Grapevine Mills, and Vista Ridge in Lewisville. Just in Y2K that radius also supported Prestonwood Mall, Valley View Mall, Collin Creek Mall, Richardson Square Mall, Big Town Mall, Southwest Center Mall, Stonebriar Centre, Firewheel Town Center and possibly others.


Galleria and Valley View depended in large part on customers in fast-growing West Plano and (to a lesser extent) Frisco, North Carrollton and The Colony trekking down the Tollway to shop there. Once Stonebriar, Willow Bend, and now Legacy West opened up, they no longer had to travel all the way to the Galleria or Valley View.

Combine thay with the triple whammy of:

*NorthPark expanding while having Neimans as an anchor (luxury boutiques like to cluster around luxury department stores)

*Saks cannibalizing sales at its Galleria store with a store right down the road at Willow Bend

*The I-635 construction in the early 2010s making accessibility harder

And the Galleria has taken quite the beaten as a destination since the 90s.

At this point, the issue really is that the DNT corridor is grossly overretailed.


Agree with all… Let’s not also forget the decade delay of redeveloping the Valley View mall site - and to make worse leaving the hulking remains of the mall for years.. No doubt a drag on property values, retail sales, etc. for the whole area…

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 15 Jun 2023 12:00

Addison wrote:
I45Tex wrote:Your comment goes to the point that "location, location, location" may be the three biggest tailwinds in real estate but not the only decisive ones...

However AFAIK the five closest malls to Northpark are Galleria Dallas, Town East, Irving Mall, Grapevine Mills, and Vista Ridge in Lewisville. Just in Y2K that radius also supported Prestonwood Mall, Valley View Mall, Collin Creek Mall, Richardson Square Mall, Big Town Mall, Southwest Center Mall, Stonebriar Centre, Firewheel Town Center and possibly others.


Galleria and Valley View depended in large part on customers in fast-growing West Plano and (to a lesser extent) Frisco, North Carrollton and The Colony trekking down the Tollway to shop there. Once Stonebriar, Willow Bend, and now Legacy West opened up, they no longer had to travel all the way to the Galleria or Valley View.

Combine thay with the triple whammy of:

*NorthPark expanding while having Neimans as an anchor (luxury boutiques like to cluster around luxury department stores)

*Saks cannibalizing sales at its Galleria store with a store right down the road at Willow Bend

*The I-635 construction in the early 2010s making accessibility harder

And the Galleria has taken quite the beaten as a destination since the 90s.

At this point, the issue really is that the DNT corridor is grossly overretailed.


As much as I shit-talk about Stonebriar, I have noticed that between Stonebriar, and the "higher-end" centers like Legacy West, the Shops at Legacy, and Willow Bend (due to Neiman Marcus, Swarovski, Brooks Brothers, and L'occitane which are still open), there's not really much that the Galleria has that cannot be found in Collin County (aside from Zara and Abercrombie, which I'd love to have at Willow Bend or Watters Creek). Meanwhile, I know a lot of people in Collin County who go to NorthPark to shop as they've done a good job at maintaining a base of not only luxury stores, but exclusive stores to the area in general.

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Addison
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Addison » 18 Jun 2023 20:53

Proquest20 wrote:
Addison wrote:
I45Tex wrote:Your comment goes to the point that "location, location, location" may be the three biggest tailwinds in real estate but not the only decisive ones...

However AFAIK the five closest malls to Northpark are Galleria Dallas, Town East, Irving Mall, Grapevine Mills, and Vista Ridge in Lewisville. Just in Y2K that radius also supported Prestonwood Mall, Valley View Mall, Collin Creek Mall, Richardson Square Mall, Big Town Mall, Southwest Center Mall, Stonebriar Centre, Firewheel Town Center and possibly others.


Galleria and Valley View depended in large part on customers in fast-growing West Plano and (to a lesser extent) Frisco, North Carrollton and The Colony trekking down the Tollway to shop there. Once Stonebriar, Willow Bend, and now Legacy West opened up, they no longer had to travel all the way to the Galleria or Valley View.

Combine thay with the triple whammy of:

*NorthPark expanding while having Neimans as an anchor (luxury boutiques like to cluster around luxury department stores)

*Saks cannibalizing sales at its Galleria store with a store right down the road at Willow Bend

*The I-635 construction in the early 2010s making accessibility harder

And the Galleria has taken quite the beaten as a destination since the 90s.

At this point, the issue really is that the DNT corridor is grossly overretailed.


As much as I shit-talk about Stonebriar, I have noticed that between Stonebriar, and the "higher-end" centers like Legacy West, the Shops at Legacy, and Willow Bend (due to Neiman Marcus, Swarovski, Brooks Brothers, and L'occitane which are still open), there's not really much that the Galleria has that cannot be found in Collin County (aside from Zara and Abercrombie, which I'd love to have at Willow Bend or Watters Creek). Meanwhile, I know a lot of people in Collin County who go to NorthPark to shop as they've done a good job at maintaining a base of not only luxury stores, but exclusive stores to the area in general.


Collin Counry also doesn't have Apple (we know the politics behind this) and American Girl, which is why the Galleria losing American Girl is going to be another huge blow.

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R1070
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby R1070 » 18 Jun 2023 21:14

Addison wrote:
Proquest20 wrote:
Addison wrote:
Galleria and Valley View depended in large part on customers in fast-growing West Plano and (to a lesser extent) Frisco, North Carrollton and The Colony trekking down the Tollway to shop there. Once Stonebriar, Willow Bend, and now Legacy West opened up, they no longer had to travel all the way to the Galleria or Valley View.

Combine thay with the triple whammy of:

*NorthPark expanding while having Neimans as an anchor (luxury boutiques like to cluster around luxury department stores)

*Saks cannibalizing sales at its Galleria store with a store right down the road at Willow Bend

*The I-635 construction in the early 2010s making accessibility harder

And the Galleria has taken quite the beaten as a destination since the 90s.

At this point, the issue really is that the DNT corridor is grossly overretailed.


As much as I shit-talk about Stonebriar, I have noticed that between Stonebriar, and the "higher-end" centers like Legacy West, the Shops at Legacy, and Willow Bend (due to Neiman Marcus, Swarovski, Brooks Brothers, and L'occitane which are still open), there's not really much that the Galleria has that cannot be found in Collin County (aside from Zara and Abercrombie, which I'd love to have at Willow Bend or Watters Creek). Meanwhile, I know a lot of people in Collin County who go to NorthPark to shop as they've done a good job at maintaining a base of not only luxury stores, but exclusive stores to the area in general.


Collin Counry also doesn't have Apple (we know the politics behind this) and American Girl, which is why the Galleria losing American Girl is going to be another huge blow.


I thought Zara (and Mango) are opening at Stonbriar. Maybe I'm mistaken about Zara.

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Addison
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Addison » 18 Jun 2023 22:50

R1070 wrote:
Addison wrote:
Proquest20 wrote:
As much as I shit-talk about Stonebriar, I have noticed that between Stonebriar, and the "higher-end" centers like Legacy West, the Shops at Legacy, and Willow Bend (due to Neiman Marcus, Swarovski, Brooks Brothers, and L'occitane which are still open), there's not really much that the Galleria has that cannot be found in Collin County (aside from Zara and Abercrombie, which I'd love to have at Willow Bend or Watters Creek). Meanwhile, I know a lot of people in Collin County who go to NorthPark to shop as they've done a good job at maintaining a base of not only luxury stores, but exclusive stores to the area in general.


Collin Counry also doesn't have Apple (we know the politics behind this) and American Girl, which is why the Galleria losing American Girl is going to be another huge blow.


I thought Zara (and Mango) are opening at Stonbriar. Maybe I'm mistaken about Zara.


Mango has been confirmed.

Zara seems to be more tentative per the link below (no specific location or opening date has been confirmed)

https://localprofile.com/2023/03/17/new ... or-frisco/

Galleria did at least recently score Intimissimi as what appears to be an exclusive retailer for DFW.

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 19 Jun 2023 12:25

Addison wrote:
R1070 wrote:
Addison wrote:
Collin Counry also doesn't have Apple (we know the politics behind this) and American Girl, which is why the Galleria losing American Girl is going to be another huge blow.


I thought Zara (and Mango) are opening at Stonbriar. Maybe I'm mistaken about Zara.


Mango has been confirmed.

Zara seems to be more tentative per the link below (no specific location or opening date has been confirmed)

https://localprofile.com/2023/03/17/new ... or-frisco/

Galleria did at least recently score Intimissimi as what appears to be an exclusive retailer for DFW.


I wish Zara would have chose to open at Sundance Square (old H&M space) or at somewhere else in Collin County (like Watter’s Creek, next to DSW). I’m not sure where in Stonebriar they’re going to open (hopefully not the Sears building) but there’s a lot better places that are more appealing. Even Shops at Legacy or Willow Bend would seem better to me.

It’s really interesting that the whole metro area contains 5 Louis Vuitton stores, and only 2 Zara stores.

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 19 Jun 2023 12:35

https://dallas.culturemap.com/news/trav ... -district/

North Italia and Salut Paris Bakery are coming to the mall. Looks like renovations to The Alley are planned (and maybe they won’t call it that anymore since The Grill on The Alley has been gone for a while)

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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby NdoorTX » 21 Jun 2023 13:19

Galleria Dallas is adding an outdoor space, North Italia and new stores
Two stores - Utah-based Cotopaxi and H&M Home - are new to the Dallas-Fort Worth market.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/retail/2023/06/21/galleria-dallas-is-adding-an-outdoor-space-north-italia-restaurant-and-new-stores/

"After taking over Galleria Dallas as its lender late last year, MetLife is making some major upgrades to the 40-year-old mall by adding new outdoor green space, new stores and restaurants.

Upgrades to the mall’s main entrance called “The Alley” that faces the Dallas North Tollway aren’t finalized yet, but will include a large new public space with a sizeable outdoor green area and seating, said Terry Montesi, CEO of Trademark Property Co."

"Upgrades include new furniture, fixtures and lighting on both level 1 and below it on the ice rink level. New carpeting has been added throughout the center.

The corridor leading from the Westin Galleria hotel into the mall is being straightened and widened. It will feature new lighting and furnishings."

"Louis Vuitton has signed a new long-term lease to build a new larger store on Level 1 next to Sephora. That work is expected to take six months.

Bachendorf’s is moving into its larger store in October, which will include a Rolex store.

Mi Cocina has reopened in the rink level following a major remodel.

French pastry shop Salut Paris Bakery will open later this summer on level 1."

"Investments that luxury tenants are making to remain in the mall, such as new and expanded stores for both Louis Vuitton and Bachendorf’s, are examples of the mall’s ongoing strength in the market, Montesi said.

Nordstrom Marketplace Café has moved to Level 2 of the department store. Luciano Pizza and Pasta, located on the ice rink, has completed a remodel."

"An American Girl store – the only one in Texas -- will be leaving its free-standing, two-story location in the Galleria later this year and opening next year in The Shops at Park Lane.

“That’s some great real estate for us to lease,” Montesi said."

Image

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Cbdallas
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Cbdallas » 21 Jun 2023 13:21

Sadly no residential apartment towers, no major adjustment to adding a park or outside component etc.
Just bandaids no long term changes.

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acclar11
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby acclar11 » 21 Jun 2023 16:04

My main gripe with Trademark is that they're in denial that the center is struggling. They always act optimistic when stores close, and say that they're "excited to work with new tenants," but then the empty spaces aren't filled.

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R1070
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby R1070 » 21 Jun 2023 16:10

I don't think the outdoor component is necessary. The one implemented at Willow Bend was always odd and forgotten.

I would like to see residential added and a new vision for the previous Belk space.

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 21 Jun 2023 16:37

R1070 wrote:I don't think the outdoor component is necessary. The one implemented at Willow Bend was always odd and forgotten.

I would like to see residential added and a new vision for the previous Belk space.


If it weren’t so close to Knox, the old Belk would make an excellent RH + restaurant. Maybe Crate + Barrel can come back to the Galleria area from Willow Bend and take over American Girl

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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Kelley USA » 21 Jun 2023 17:27

acclar11 wrote:My main gripe with Trademark is that they're in denial that the center is struggling. They always act optimistic when stores close, and say that they're "excited to work with new tenants," but then the empty spaces aren't filled.


I wouldn't necessarily say that. What they might think internally as a company, certainly isn't something they can project to the public. If you're trying to lease a center and you're going around talking about how bad it's struggling, you're going to 1) dissuade people from wanting to go shop there, and 2) you're going to dissuade potential tenants from wanting to lease there. You have to project a rosy outlook.

But I see potential here. I think North Italia is a pretty good get for them, and they are making strides.

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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 21 Jun 2023 18:07

R1070 wrote:I don't think the outdoor component is necessary. The one implemented at Willow Bend was always odd and forgotten.


The thing about that outdoor section is that it connects to just nothing.

I remember this even in the 90s when malls were thriving with basically no vacancies: some malls just have walking deadzones by the nature of their layout. They're spots that if you're aimlessly strolling around the mall you would turn back and not bother taking those extra few steps towards unless you had an active desire to go in a specific store there that you already knew about.

The willowbend outdoor space did not act as a natural part of the mall's walking flow so people only ever checked it out if they already knew what was there and wanted to go there. There was no incidental passerby traffic because it acts as a deadend. They wanted a mini-Shops at Legacy without realizing that people like walking outside there because they feel like there is always something to actually walk towards. Walk outside at the willowbend space and your reward is just... the tollway.

The same issue would arise with the Galleria attempting a similar space.

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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 21 Jun 2023 21:37

THe outdoor space facing DNT was meant as a billboard it was never meant to be used. It was meant to appeal to highway drivers who needed to be reminded that inside was plenty of AC and parking garages and "activity" by trying to create facades and some minor patios with some landscaping redos to capture eyes racing by at 85-90 miles an hour. They wanted people to get off the highway park in the garage and go inside. It was never a true walkable effort for change just a bit of discount store curtains draped over some concrete blocks. Maybe even more like a photographer backdrop draped over a concrete block wall. Like a fake train tunnel encouraging the cartoon roadrunner to run through baiting the coyote. They could have done just as well with a giant mural depicting old Main Street or Theater Row from Dallas yesteryear.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 21 Jun 2023 21:45

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:
R1070 wrote:I don't think the outdoor component is necessary. The one implemented at Willow Bend was always odd and forgotten.


The thing about that outdoor section is that it connects to just nothing.

I remember this even in the 90s when malls were thriving with basically no vacancies: some malls just have walking deadzones by the nature of their layout. They're spots that if you're aimlessly strolling around the mall you would turn back and not bother taking those extra few steps towards unless you had an active desire to go in a specific store there that you already knew about.

The willowbend outdoor space did not act as a natural part of the mall's walking flow so people only ever checked it out if they already knew what was there and wanted to go there. There was no incidental passerby traffic because it acts as a deadend. They wanted a mini-Shops at Legacy without realizing that people like walking outside there because they feel like there is always something to actually walk towards. Walk outside at the willowbend space and your reward is just... the tollway.

The same issue would arise with the Galleria attempting a similar space.



A better example of a mall with proper green space is Baybrook Mall in Friendswood. There, you exit the mall into the green space and there’s actually stuff to walk towards and see. It’s the part of the mall that feels more premium and interactive. At Willow Bend, there’s nothing there to see.

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mhainli
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby mhainli » 21 Jun 2023 22:25

IcedCowboyCoffee wrote:
R1070 wrote:I don't think the outdoor component is necessary. The one implemented at Willow Bend was always odd and forgotten.


The thing about that outdoor section is that it connects to just nothing.

I remember this even in the 90s when malls were thriving with basically no vacancies: some malls just have walking deadzones by the nature of their layout. They're spots that if you're aimlessly strolling around the mall you would turn back and not bother taking those extra few steps towards unless you had an active desire to go in a specific store there that you already knew about.

The willowbend outdoor space did not act as a natural part of the mall's walking flow so people only ever checked it out if they already knew what was there and wanted to go there. There was no incidental passerby traffic because it acts as a deadend. They wanted a mini-Shops at Legacy without realizing that people like walking outside there because they feel like there is always something to actually walk towards. Walk outside at the willowbend space and your reward is just... the tollway.

The same issue would arise with the Galleria attempting a similar space.


Great points. The outside area is nice and has great walk-up appeal - even now. Problem is very few would be walking up or walking out through it as noted. There’s no parking in front or close-by pedestrian generators like offices or apartments - and very little room to build such things as the tollway is right there. The 2 restaurants bracketing this outside area have the same challenges and the additional problem of not being directly connected to the mall - very weird. So again you need an “active desire” to go to the restaurants too - no drive and park or walk by in the mall….

So Trademark needs to get creative on the this whole area: find a way to directly connect restaurants to mall (see Grand Lux), create interesting restaurant patio seating adjacent to outside walkway, find way to reconfigure parking lot area in front - move underground ramp, remove fountains and create surface parking (even 60-70 spaces would help). Can a sports bar be carved into this outside space near the mall entrance being redone? Would provide a different place to actually go and hang out.

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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby jrp2066 » 22 Jun 2023 08:03

Although I certainly agree with everyone's concerns relating to retail vacancy and the need for redevelopment of the Galleria, considering both Grand Lux Cafe and North Italia are owned by the same company (The Cheesecake Factory), I would imagine this is a vote of confidence by these restaurants' corporate parent in the direction of the Galleria, or at least their ability to operate profitable restaurants there.

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 22 Jun 2023 16:57

jrp2066 wrote:Although I certainly agree with everyone's concerns relating to retail vacancy and the need for redevelopment of the Galleria, considering both Grand Lux Cafe and North Italia are owned by the same company (The Cheesecake Factory), I would imagine this is a vote of confidence by these restaurants' corporate parent in the direction of the Galleria, or at least their ability to operate profitable restaurants there.


THIS! Obviously Grand Lux is doing well considering they’ve closed a couple of their other locations recently. North Italia further demonstrates that the Galleria is still profitable for restaurants to be at.

In terms of restaurants the Galleria is much stronger than NorthPark is, in my opinion. NorthPark has several unfilled vacancies (one in NorthCourt, two behind the AMC, and another facing CenterPark) that have not been filled for years.

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acclar11
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby acclar11 » 25 Jun 2023 18:03

I didn't realize until today how almost "outdated" the American Girl store is. It used to be bright red, but now it's a really dim maroon from all the sun exposure. I one time went to that store in 2011/2012, and it looked immaculate, but it definitely hasn't been kept up in the past few years

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Proquest20
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Proquest20 » 25 Jun 2023 18:09

acclar11 wrote:I didn't realize until today how almost "outdated" the American Girl store is. It used to be bright red, but now it's a really dim maroon from all the sun exposure. I one time went to that store in 2011/2012, and it looked immaculate, but it definitely hasn't been kept up in the past few years


Yeah, the curtains look almost tan now in comparison to the pink that they used to be.

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The_Overdog
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby The_Overdog » 26 Jun 2023 09:00

American Girl got sold to Mattel or someone and is moving to be more generalized rather than so exclusive.

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Tucy
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Tucy » 26 Jun 2023 09:11

The_Overdog wrote:American Girl got sold to Mattel or someone and is moving to be more generalized rather than so exclusive.


That happened 25 years ago. long before they opened the Galleria store.

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Addison
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby Addison » 26 Jun 2023 11:02

acclar11 wrote:I didn't realize until today how almost "outdated" the American Girl store is. It used to be bright red, but now it's a really dim maroon from all the sun exposure. I one time went to that store in 2011/2012, and it looked immaculate, but it definitely hasn't been kept up in the past few years


Most likely, they had been planning this move for a while and were just waiting out their lease period.

No point investing money into a place you won't be in for long.

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I45Tex
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Re: North Dallas: Galleria

Postby I45Tex » 26 Jun 2023 11:36

I would think that 55+ apartments or condo-hotel with a public fitness chain, an HEB grocery, and public cafés around a pocket park would put the Galleria right back on the map long before a walkable central park lawn comes to Dallas International District. But...

I would ultimately be well pleased to see a four tracks of subway or jitney & four tracks maglev station underneath that lawn with express nonstop service to transfers at Addison Circle DART (northbound) and at either SMU/Mockingbird or at Walnut Hill DART (southbound) and nonstop maglev service to DFW Terminal D (westbound), to Galatyn Park (eastbound), and to Exposition Park passing by underneath SMU/Mockingbird DART to get there (southeastbound)