Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Dallas downtown to get a new 10-story high-rise with a Tom Thumb
by Steve Brown, Dallas Morning News, 12-05-17

Developers have filed building permits for a new apartment tower on downtown Dallas' near east side.

The 10-story high-rise is planned to include a grocery store on the ground floor at Live Oak and Texas streets. The mixed-use project is part of Greystar Real Estate Partners City Lights development and has been in the works since last year.

Building permits show the project will be a 370-unit apartment development with almost 850,000 square feet. So far the permits are valued at almost $100 million.

The high-rise project is planned to include a Tom Thumb grocery store on the ground floor. The building will take more than a year to complete.

It's all part of Greystar's City Lights development, which includes a 424-unit apartment community at Live Oak and Good-Latimer Expressway

When City Lights was first proposed back in 2004, it was planned with a grocery store, high-rise apartments and retail. The project was delayed during the recession and went through bankruptcy, sale and a redesign before Greystar started construction.
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Greystar just completed a 23-story, 302-unit apartment tower in Dallas' Victory Park.
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Article: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2017/12/05/high-rise-way-downtown-dallas-near-east-side

Um... It's a real stretch to even call this area "Downtown"....C'mon, this is closer to Exall Park than it is to Main St. Garden.

This is disrespectful to Bryan Place and Old East Dallas.

This reminds me when "Downtown" got a new movie theatre in the Cedars....

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Um... It's a real stretch to even call this area "Downtown"....C'mon, this is closer to Exall Park than it is to Main St. Garden.

This is disrespectful to Bryan Place and Old East Dallas.

This reminds me when "Downtown" got a new movie theatre in the Cedars....

Again it depends on the reader. Most of my friends include Deep Ellum, Uptown, Victory Park, South Side , River Front, and Design District when referring to Downtown. By the Downtown 360 standard this is a part of Downtown and honestly, the service for a store like this majorly overlaps the CBD so I am willing to accept the indicator even if it is not in the downtown core which I would define as the CBD. Afterall if you remove I-345 whether by burying it or deleting it all together all of a sudden the lines are blurred even more. With the addition of towers like the Case Building, the Epic and this 10 story tom Thumb the visual connections start to blur as well.

Imagine the streetlife this would bring if we could start replacing all the 5 Story Podiums with 10+ Story construction with retail. Excited to see this one come to reality!

Could use better architecture.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Um... It's a real stretch to even call this area "Downtown"....C'mon, this is closer to Exall Park than it is to Main St. Garden.

This is disrespectful to Bryan Place and Old East Dallas.

This reminds me when "Downtown" got a new movie theatre in the Cedars....

Again it depends on the reader. Most of my friends include Deep Ellum, Uptown, Victory Park, South Side , River Front, and Design District when referring to Downtown. By the Downtown 360 standard this is a part of Downtown and honestly, the service for a store like this majorly overlaps the CBD so I am willing to accept the indicator even if it is not in the downtown core which I would define as the CBD. Afterall if you remove I-345 whether by burying it or deleting it all together all of a sudden the lines are blurred even more. With the addition of towers like the Case Building, the Epic and this 10 story tom Thumb the visual connections start to blur as well.

Agree, there is a difference between CBD and Downtown. Some people get offended when you say Victory Park is downtown, but you start to look at buildings like the Brewery and White Swan Coffee north of Woodall and you can't say those are not downtown/West End/Frog Town buildings.

The fact its not in Uptown should be the biggest boost to morale. Uptown is not the only Dallas central neighborhood that deserves options for groceries and neighborhood service businesses. Not to mention any of the parking lots on this side of CBD now become more valuable for residential and other growth.

This project has started!

I've been seeing work being done on all these sites. I'm excited to have a grocery store within walking distance. The lot across from this site, on live oak st is getting a lot of work done too. I think its part of this project. Phase 2 on the back side is completely fenced in now.

I'm waiting for all the real estate professionals around town to stop talking about cycles and start talking about waves. The "cycle" will last another generation; this one here is part of the wave washing over Old East Dallas - CBD to Baylor-Scott-White. The build up will be more dense than Uptown.

We will soon have two urban Tom Thumbs while Kroger sits on two pieces of property with daydreams of competitive stores.

Across the street from the Gabriella is another worksite at Texas and Live Oak. The contractor is SunTech. I was looking on their website and I couldn't find anything. They do retail sites and standalone CVS stores. Anyone know how to find out whats being built on that site?

Let's pray it's not a stand alone suburban style CVS...

dd_dweller wrote:Across the street from the Gabriella is another worksite at Texas and Live Oak. The contractor is SunTech. I was looking on their website and I couldn't find anything. They do retail sites and standalone CVS stores. Anyone know how to find out whats being built on that site?

It will be a Tom Thumb fuel center and a convenience store (they have an active beer & wine permit).

It's not glamorous but a sure sign the neighborhood is growing. It was, like, ~15 years ago when 7-11 proposed a new store in the CBD; what would be barely even register a blip on CBD radar now was a huge deal for downtown back then. As an indicator of the neighborhood, a new gas station/convenience store is a big sign.

With the Tom Thumb part of it, sounds like it'll be one of those contemporary corner grocery stores where neighborhood residents can pick up some basic pantry items, acceptable table wine, hopefully good produce, diary and gas up for the week. I really like the direction online ordering seems to be taking.

These new style corner grocery stores will become drive thru.... place your order before you head home from wherever, and during the few minutes it takes to fill your tank with gasoline someone fetches your "grocery-conveniences order" and you head home. Is that a thing anywhere yet? Could even bring back an actual retailer need for the full service gas station. Throw in the dry cleaner, maybe pharmacy, "gourmet take-out" whatever people have become accustomed to getting through the drive thru is bundled with the grocery-convenience store order placed online a couple hours earlier.

Makes me wonder how long until Walgreens buys Racetrak (eg) so the drive thru warehouse gas station pulls together internet with brick & mortar shopping so folks can save time bundling errands. Probably would help non-essential retail stores since people would save time running errands, leaving more time to browse.

anyway...

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

dd_dweller wrote:Across the street from the Gabriella is another worksite at Texas and Live Oak. The contractor is SunTech. I was looking on their website and I couldn't find anything. They do retail sites and standalone CVS stores. Anyone know how to find out whats being built on that site?

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

^ I've heard this will be a Tom Thumb gas station, but I don't have confirmation.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ I've heard this will be a Tom Thumb gas station, but I don't have confirmation.

Confirmed.

Base of crane is in place

Just think we will have two full-service Tom Thumbs and a Whole Foods just outside of the CBD. Groceries are moving further and further south.

Awesome, thanks for posting the pics.

Thanks for the update! The fringes of Deep Ellum are getting seriously dense. It's great to see this level of development spread outside of the uptown. A wild fantasy of mine, is to imagine all these neigborhoods (Deep Ellum, Uptown, Oak Lawn, Knox / Henderson, extending south through the Cedars and Bishop Arts) become a intertwined urban community. Ultimately, the coalition of neighboorhoods being easily accessible per Bike or public transportation.

ContriveDallasite wrote:Thanks for the update! The fringes of Deep Ellum are getting seriously dense. It's great to see this level of development spread outside of the uptown. A wild fantasy of mine, is to imagine all these neigborhoods (Deep Ellum, Uptown, Oak Lawn, Knox / Henderson, extending south through the Cedars and Bishop Arts) become a intertwined urban community. Ultimately, the coalition of neighboorhoods being easily accessible per Bike or public transportation.

It would also be nice to see a "circle" transit line connect all of these neighborhoods surrounding Downtown and connecting to DART rail and streetcar. Subway, Light Rail, or BRT. Something like Uptown -> East Dallas -> Deep Ellum -> Fair Park -> Cedars -> N. Oak Cliff -> Trinity Groves -> Design District -> Oak Lawn/Uptown. Pipe Dreams.

Matt777 wrote:

ContriveDallasite wrote:Thanks for the update! The fringes of Deep Ellum are getting seriously dense. It's great to see this level of development spread outside of the uptown. A wild fantasy of mine, is to imagine all these neigborhoods (Deep Ellum, Uptown, Oak Lawn, Knox / Henderson, extending south through the Cedars and Bishop Arts) become a intertwined urban community. Ultimately, the coalition of neighboorhoods being easily accessible per Bike or public transportation.

It would also be nice to see a "circle" transit line connect all of these neighborhoods surrounding Downtown and connecting to DART rail and streetcar. Subway, Light Rail, or BRT. Something like Uptown -> East Dallas -> Deep Ellum -> Fair Park -> Cedars -> N. Oak Cliff -> Trinity Groves -> Design District -> Oak Lawn/Uptown. Pipe Dreams.

Moscow metro ring line for every sprawling city. Pipe dream perhaps, but works awesome in practice if ever built.

Matt777 wrote:

ContriveDallasite wrote:Thanks for the update! The fringes of Deep Ellum are getting seriously dense. It's great to see this level of development spread outside of the uptown. A wild fantasy of mine, is to imagine all these neigborhoods (Deep Ellum, Uptown, Oak Lawn, Knox / Henderson, extending south through the Cedars and Bishop Arts) become a intertwined urban community. Ultimately, the coalition of neighboorhoods being easily accessible per Bike or public transportation.

It would also be nice to see a "circle" transit line connect all of these neighborhoods surrounding Downtown and connecting to DART rail and streetcar. Subway, Light Rail, or BRT. Something like Uptown -> East Dallas -> Deep Ellum -> Fair Park -> Cedars -> N. Oak Cliff -> Trinity Groves -> Design District -> Oak Lawn/Uptown. Pipe Dreams.

Good idea!

As long as the gas isn't 5$ like the shell on Mckinney it will be a welcome addition despite my desire for more density driven development.

Is there any branding of the gas? The location is convenient, but my babies only get filled with pedigree hydrocarbons.

I'll have to check this out.any electric charging stations? Would be short sighted not to include these in urban areas given the Auto Industry's new direction.

IDK if any fuel areas at a Tom Thumb would have electric charging spots. Would be a good idea. I've seen them at Walgreens before.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:As long as the gas isn't 5$ like the shell on Mckinney it will be a welcome addition despite my desire for more density driven development.

They'd be dumb to go to the trouble of having gas pumps then gouge on the prices. The manager at the gas pump 7-Eleven downtown has told me he's been urged to price his gas higher but he doesn't want to run off potential store business.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Is there any branding of the gas?

I think all the Tom Thumb fuel areas are just store branded, with no major oil company signs or tie-ins. Pretty much like Kroger's gas or the newer Walmart locations that don't have a Murphy in their parking lots.

^ Thanks.

So is this tom thumb express going to be separate from the Tom thumb that was planned as the tenant for the city light building?

I just don't know why they would place the express store and the actual store so close together. Why not else where in East Dallas? Over by Columbia or up on Gaston.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:So is this tom thumb express going to be separate from the Tom thumb that was planned as the tenant for the city light building?

I just don't know why they would place the express store and the actual store so close together. Why not else where in East Dallas? Over by Columbia or up on Gaston.

Yes, but they wanted to served the surrounding area with a store. Most Tom Thumb stores have a gas station in the parking lot of their stores anyway...they just don’t have a full size convenience store.

The large grocery chains with gas always put the "gas station" near a regular store so their customers can have convenient access to use the fuel points. I can't imagine this mini store is much more than a convenience store with a few more staples available, but I haven't been to one.

Finally, the store level is going up! Next up will be the residential units that will have an affordable grocery store as an amenity below them. I am jealous of that for sure. Currently, I have to cross the street for that privilege.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Finally, the store level is going up! Next up will be the residential units that will have an affordable grocery store as an amenity below them. I am jealous of that for sure. Currently, I have to cross the street for that privilege.

Idk if I'd call tom thumb affordable, at least as long as I'm aware of what Kroger charges for the same exact items. It's a shade cheaper than Whole Paycheck, but with the sort of rents the apartments above will likely go for, I'm assuming the demographics won't be the sort who clips coupons and searches out deals.

TNWE wrote:

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Finally, the store level is going up! Next up will be the residential units that will have an affordable grocery store as an amenity below them. I am jealous of that for sure. Currently, I have to cross the street for that privilege.

Idk if I'd call tom thumb affordable, at least as long as I'm aware of what Kroger charges for the same exact items. It's a shade cheaper than Whole Paycheck, but with the sort of rents the apartments above will likely go for, I'm assuming the demographics won't be the sort who clips coupons and searches out deals.

In my neighborhood it's affordable. I shop at Kroger cause it's across the street from me and I consider them about the same. Trader Joes is next up the food chain along with Whole Foods and Central Market and Royal Blue. Aldi and Alberstons, Fiesta being less than desirable options in my preference in their store experience for the price. Sprouts being an option I love but hasn't really gone after the inner city market with any fire. There are some other chains mixed in there but my perception is that Tom Thumb is a lot better option for city living than Whole Foods. Whole Foods is nice to have on McKinney but I welcome Tom Thumbs entry into the city urban store market.

This picture is looking East down Live Oak?

Tnexster wrote:This picture is looking East down Live Oak?

Yes

This one definitely hasn't moved much the last quarter.

It probably has something to do with the complexity of the building's layout. Look at the renderings and the site shape. It's a massive building and unlike Trammel Crows new parking garage downtown it's not just a big square. This project has curves and two parking garages, one for the grocery store and one for the residential. I am sure all these design choices add up to more time going vertical with the concrete forms.