Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

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Addison
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 01 May 2022 13:35

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Addison wrote:
rono3849 wrote:Of course renderings don't always turn into reality, but the initial ones appear to show three other towers in the development that are taller than the first tower they gained funding for. Most certainly, these other towers may never be built. The city may take office space in the new tower with its proximity to City Hall, which looks to be jammed. Who knows what may happen to this area if the new proposed Convention Center is actually built. More hotels are certainly going to be built and additional offices may be needed as well. Time will tell if they actually break ground, but it appears to be getting more likely that it will.


The new convention center is highly dependent on voters approving an increase in the hotel tax this November, which frankly I'm not optimistic will happen.

Hotel Tax will applied to Visitors who stay in Dallas Hotels. I see it passing easily.


True, but I doubt that detail matters to the active voters who are fervently anti-any new taxes.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby tamtagon » 01 May 2022 13:56

If the train to Houston stays on track, the tif investment in Newpark will be more than worth it.

Hotel tax for the convention center should pass, and $3 billion dollar investment will be luck to break even in a generation. The city better get a building that looks fantastic. It's part of the sales pitch.

This side of town will be as popular in the future as uptown is today, with or without the train station and/or the world class convention center.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby zblevinz555 » 02 May 2022 08:48

A little off topic with this broad question.
Aside from NewPark, what is the reason why dirt hasn’t moved on any major project (field st district, north end hunt project, field st tower, etc) ? Is it the pandemic, a lack of tenants? All I can think of is financial reasons or supply chain issues, or a lack of construction workers being down. I don’t know much about this industry I’m jus trying to understand it. Meanwhile dirt is flying in every direction down in Austin

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 02 May 2022 09:35

zblevinz555 wrote:A little off topic with this broad question.
Aside from NewPark, what is the reason why dirt hasn’t moved on any major project (field st district, north end hunt project, field st tower, etc) ? Is it the pandemic, a lack of tenants? All I can think of is financial reasons or supply chain issues, or a lack of construction workers being down. I don’t know much about this industry I’m jus trying to understand it. Meanwhile dirt is flying in every direction down in Austin


Demand.

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zblevinz555
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby zblevinz555 » 02 May 2022 09:43

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
zblevinz555 wrote:A little off topic with this broad question.
Aside from NewPark, what is the reason why dirt hasn’t moved on any major project (field st district, north end hunt project, field st tower, etc) ? Is it the pandemic, a lack of tenants? All I can think of is financial reasons or supply chain issues, or a lack of construction workers being down. I don’t know much about this industry I’m jus trying to understand it. Meanwhile dirt is flying in every direction down in Austin


Demand.


Isn’t demand high though with corporate relos or is everyone picking the burbs instead of cbd?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 02 May 2022 10:46

zblevinz555 wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
zblevinz555 wrote:A little off topic with this broad question.
Aside from NewPark, what is the reason why dirt hasn’t moved on any major project (field st district, north end hunt project, field st tower, etc) ? Is it the pandemic, a lack of tenants? All I can think of is financial reasons or supply chain issues, or a lack of construction workers being down. I don’t know much about this industry I’m jus trying to understand it. Meanwhile dirt is flying in every direction down in Austin


Demand.


Isn’t demand high though with corporate relos or is everyone picking the burbs instead of cbd?


Correct. The vast majority of relos have been going to the suburbs.
Last edited by Tucy on 05 May 2022 10:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 02 May 2022 10:50

zblevinz555 wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
zblevinz555 wrote:A little off topic with this broad question.
Aside from NewPark, what is the reason why dirt hasn’t moved on any major project (field st district, north end hunt project, field st tower, etc) ? Is it the pandemic, a lack of tenants? All I can think of is financial reasons or supply chain issues, or a lack of construction workers being down. I don’t know much about this industry I’m jus trying to understand it. Meanwhile dirt is flying in every direction down in Austin


Demand.


Isn’t demand high though with corporate relos or is everyone picking the burbs instead of cbd?


That's what it appears like.

Also the "developers" in Downtown Dallas are more like land speculators. They'll hold to a lot for decades, hoping, wishing for someone to ask them "hey build me an office".

They're risk averse and don't start projects until they have a lead tenant. Which means they just push out renderings so Steve Brown can pimp out their idea on DMN...

There's also the reality that huge single purpose office buildings are increasingly difficult to pull off...Look at all the ideas being tossed around for the CBD... Some aren't even mixed use; which means it's even more unlikely that project becomes a reality (Hillwood)!

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby zblevinz555 » 02 May 2022 11:35

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
zblevinz555 wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Demand.


Isn’t demand high though with corporate relos or is everyone picking the burbs instead of cbd?


That's what it appears like.

Also the "developers" in Downtown Dallas are more like land speculators. They'll hold to a lot for decades, hoping, wishing for someone to ask them "hey build me an office".

They're risk averse and don't start projects until they have a lead tenant. Which means they just push out renderings so Steve Brown can pimp out their idea on DMN...

There's also the reality that huge single purpose office buildings are increasingly difficult to pull off...Look at all the ideas being tossed around for the CBD... Some aren't even mixed use; which means it's even more unlikely that project becomes a reality (Hillwood)!


Steve brown is a walking bit. And Austin is doing laps around us it’s almost embarrassing. Maybe dirt would start flying if these projects weren’t rendered out of a cookie cutter. Gonna email ceo of KDP Derrick Evers see if they can redesign that billion dollar atrocity. Kidding but tempting

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby eburress » 02 May 2022 11:41

It's not because the proposed projects appear cookie cutter. There's way more momentum in Austin, with a bunch of corporations relocating to Downtown Austin and hardly anyone (relatively speaking) is relocating to Downtown Dallas.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 02 May 2022 11:46

eburress wrote:It's not because the proposed projects appear cookie cutter. There's way more momentum in Austin, with a bunch of corporations relocating to Downtown Austin and hardly anyone (relatively speaking) is relocating to Downtown Dallas.

DTD should pivot and become an Urban Neighborhood. Then Corporate HQ will take notice. That's how Uptown got started.
It's a chicken vs egg dilemma.

I do see DTD pivoting that way though. So that's good.

Look at the spectre debacle. They finally sell their land, ATL developers add residential towers. It's literally developers hell bent on adding office when there's no demand.
We're even seeing some office turn into residential now.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 02 May 2022 12:35

zblevinz555 wrote:A little off topic with this broad question.
Aside from NewPark, what is the reason why dirt hasn’t moved on any major project (field st district, north end hunt project, field st tower, etc) ? Is it the pandemic, a lack of tenants? All I can think of is financial reasons or supply chain issues, or a lack of construction workers being down. I don’t know much about this industry I’m jus trying to understand it. Meanwhile dirt is flying in every direction down in Austin


The building permit cluster fuck is part of the reason too.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 02 May 2022 12:41

As far as Austin, they're attracting a lot of deep pocket developers with proven track records from out of state because they perceive projects are more likely to be profitable there with all the highly paid tech workers moving in who can afford the extremely expensive condos/townhomes/apartments they're building.

Dallas doesn't have that tech industry magic working for it, as wages are generally perceived to be lower and thus local residents might not be able to afford the type of housing projects these developers want to build.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby flyswatter » 02 May 2022 13:06

The Dallas v Austin argument is so exhausting. Dallas is just not a trendy city for people on either coast like Austin is. Anecdotally West Coast people cannot stand how boring Dallas is in terms of geography.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 02 May 2022 15:08

Not only are relos not choosing downtown Dallas, when current occupants choose to stay in downtown in central Dallas, they are often moving to Uptown.

Even when they choose to stay downtown, they are often taking less space than before.

For example. Steve Brown just posted this story: "Major Accounting Firm Heads to New Downtown Dallas Office." https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... as-office/
Grant Thornton is leasing 24,600 square feet in Ross Tower, relocating from Comerica Tower. What Steve doesn't share is that this is less than one-half of the space they had at Comerica. (In 2014, they leased 60,560 square feet in Comerica.)

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 02 May 2022 16:13

Tucy wrote:Not only are relos not choosing downtown Dallas, when current occupants choose to stay in downtown in central Dallas, they are often moving to Uptown.

Even when they choose to stay downtown, they are often taking less space than before.

For example. Steve Brown just posted this story: "Major Accounting Firm Heads to New Downtown Dallas Office." https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... as-office/
Grant Thornton is leasing 24,600 square feet in Ross Tower, relocating from Comerica Tower. What Steve doesn't share is that this is less than one-half of the space they had at Comerica. (In 2014, they leased 60,560 square feet in Comerica.)


The title Steve used is kind of clickbait-y too.

Saying they're heading to a new downtown Dallas office can be interpreted that they're relocating from elsewhere, not that they're moving from one downtown office to another.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby eburress » 03 May 2022 11:29

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
eburress wrote:It's not because the proposed projects appear cookie cutter. There's way more momentum in Austin, with a bunch of corporations relocating to Downtown Austin and hardly anyone (relatively speaking) is relocating to Downtown Dallas.

DTD should pivot and become an Urban Neighborhood. Then Corporate HQ will take notice. That's how Uptown got started.
It's a chicken vs egg dilemma.

I do see DTD pivoting that way though. So that's good.

Look at the spectre debacle. They finally sell their land, ATL developers add residential towers. It's literally developers hell bent on adding office when there's no demand.
We're even seeing some office turn into residential now.


I completely agree. A vibrant, lively, safe Downtown that's packed with residents is a FAR more appealing corporate relocation destination than the relative ghost town it has been for the last 50+ years.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby citygeek » 03 May 2022 11:41

Dallas 'leadership' has never been able to get over the dream of Fortune 500 companies, as if that's all that mattered. Well actually it is to most of these folks. The other decades old trick that began with Lincoln Properties, Trammel Crow and Vantage was to constantly move tenants from the current building to the new better one. It's worked forever except that it is one of the real reasons we don't see the new builds fully leased like Austin and Houston. It's a really small town way of thinking and anyway, Austin was always too strange for them.
"To love ..(a).. city and to have a part in its advancement and improvement is the highest priority and duty of a citizen."
Daniel Burnham, 1909


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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby zblevinz555 » 04 May 2022 16:34

zblevinz555 wrote:https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/newport-dallas-district-35-billion-smart-tech-district-tower-hotel/

So I guess its a go


Nothing new just another article on it

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 04 May 2022 17:09

zblevinz555 wrote:
zblevinz555 wrote:https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/newport-dallas-district-35-billion-smart-tech-district-tower-hotel/

So I guess its a go


Nothing new just another article on it

Another article about dreams and visions.

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zblevinz555
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby zblevinz555 » 04 May 2022 17:39

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
zblevinz555 wrote:
zblevinz555 wrote:https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/newport-dallas-district-35-billion-smart-tech-district-tower-hotel/

So I guess its a go


Nothing new just another article on it

Another article about dreams and visions.


A catalyst for Steve brown puff pieces lol

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 04 May 2022 17:48

zblevinz555 wrote:https://www.papercitymag.com/real-estate/newport-dallas-district-35-billion-smart-tech-district-tower-hotel/

So I guess its a go


Pretty clickbait-y title for that article.

The fact that the incentives may allow for construction to move forward doesn't mean construction will actually move forward *NOW*. If Midtown is any sign, they may still sit on this land for several more years and do nothing with it.

Furthermore, the article doesn't give a timeline for construction.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 10:52

tamtagon wrote:If the train to Houston stays on track, the tif investment in Newpark will be more than worth it.

Hotel tax for the convention center should pass, and $3 billion dollar investment will be luck to break even in a generation. The city better get a building that looks fantastic. It's part of the sales pitch.

This side of town will be as popular in the future as uptown is today, with or without the train station and/or the world class convention center.


If the train to Houston and the new convention center happen and produce even half the spinoff development some are imagining, this TIF expenditure will have been unnecessary.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tnexster » 05 May 2022 12:44

The train appears dead at this moment, they don't even tweet much anymore. The convention center will probably make, my view is that this somehow gets built, sits largely empty then poof, we have another Cityplace tower standing 40 floors all by itself.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 13:53

Assuming the Hotel Tax passes, if we see the same type of development boom Nashville saw when they built their new CC, we may not even need the train to help spur activity.
Last edited by Addison on 05 May 2022 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 05 May 2022 14:36

Tnexster wrote:The train appears dead at this moment, they don't even tweet much anymore.

They're stuck sitting on their hands until the state supreme court makes their ruling.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 15:28

Addison wrote:Assuming the Hotel Tax passes, if we see the same type of development boom Nashville daw when they built their new CC, we may not even need the train to help spur activity.


It takes a bit of a stretch to think Dallas would have a boom anything like Nashville based on the proposed new convention center.

First, one needs to be careful in assuming how much of Nashville's downtown boom was caused by the convention center.

Second, Nashville's new Music City Center vaulted them into a totally different league, just from a space factor. Dallas's, not so much.

Third, the Music City Center was at least as well-located (if not better) than its predecessor, and well-connected with other attractions and its neighborhood. Dallas's proposed new center is more poorly-located and less well-connected than the current one (and not well-connected with much of anything).

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 16:39

Tucy wrote:First, one needs to be careful in assuming how much of Nashville's downtown boom was caused by the convention center.


I think it is safe to assume the huge boom in hotels they've seen (which, BTW, have made up majority of the new high rises & infill in downtown Nashville) is in large part because of the new demand the convention center is/was presumed to generate.

Second, Nashville's new Music City Center vaulted them into a totally different league, just from a space factor. Dallas's, not so much.


I'm optimistic that Dallas' proposed replacement of a relatively small and obsolete convention center will also put it in a totally different league, especially given its central location relative to the rest of the country and its excellent airport connectivity relative to most major cities.

And I wouldn't trivialize the number of organizers who value having new, shiny, spacious state-of-the-art facilities to host their events. The study completed by the city highlighted the number of conventions Dallas has lost out on because the organizers are plain disgusted by KBH (and that number wasn't miniscule).

Third, the Music City Center was at least as well-located (if not better) than its predecessor, and well-connected with other attractions and its neighborhood. Dallas's proposed new center is more poorly-located and less well-connected than the current one (and not well-connected with much of anything).


Part of the city's plans (which were also in the study) includes establishing a public-private partnership to drastically improve connectivity with the rest of downtown, with more park space & housing.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 16:52

Formatting error

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 16:54

Addison wrote:I think it is safe to assume the huge boom in hotels they've seen (which, BTW, have made up majority of the new high rises & infill in downtown Nashville) is in large part because of the new demand the convention center is/was presumed to generate.


I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. Hasn't downtown Dallas also had a solid boom in new hotels in recent years?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 16:57

Addison wrote:[
I'm optimistic that Dallas' proposed replacement of a relatively small and obsolete convention center will also put it in a totally different league, especially given its central location relative to the rest of the country and its excellent airport connectivity relative to most major cities.

And I wouldn't trivialize the number of organizers who value having new, shiny, spacious state-of-the-art facilities to host their events. The study completed by the city highlighted the number of conventions Dallas has lost out on because the organizers are plain disgusted by KBH (and that number wasn't miniscule).


Dallas's convention center is not really "relatively small". Per their website, it's "one of the largest convention centers in the nation." I'll grant you there are plenty of organizers looking for shiny. But the current center could be polished, remodeled, even expanded if necessary to capture all of those elements, one would think for much less money (and maintain it's current less-than-optimal connectivity to downtown, rather than making it even less optimally located.
Last edited by Tucy on 05 May 2022 17:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 17:00

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:I think it is safe to assume the huge boom in hotels they've seen (which, BTW, have made up majority of the new high rises & infill in downtown Nashville) is in large part because of the new demand the convention center is/was presumed to generate.


I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. Hasn't downtown Dallas also had a solid boom in new hotels in recent years?


Not nearly to the extent that Nashville has. It's on a whole 'nother level there.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 17:02

Addison wrote:[

Part of the city's plans (which were also in the study) includes establishing a public-private partnership to drastically improve connectivity with the rest of downtown, with more park space & housing.


This is my favorite. For decades, the city has been trying to get hotels etc to develop around the convention center. They finally gave up and built one themselves. Then when the grand hotel didn't generate the predicted spinoffs of further development, they built another building to get some restaurants nearby.

NOW, they suddenly have plans to drastically improve the connectivity??? If that can be done over the larger distance to the new convention center, why hasn't it been done over the current shorter distance? Drawing pretty renderings does not really constitute a plan.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 17:07

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:[
I'm optimistic that Dallas' proposed replacement of a relatively small and obsolete convention center will also put it in a totally different league, especially given its central location relative to the rest of the country and its excellent airport connectivity relative to most major cities.

And I wouldn't trivialize the number of organizers who value having new, shiny, spacious state-of-the-art facilities to host their events. The study completed by the city highlighted the number of conventions Dallas has lost out on because the organizers are plain disgusted by KBH (and that number wasn't miniscule).


Dallas's convention center is not really "relatively small" I'll grant you there are plenty of organizers looking for shiny. But the current center could be polished, remodeled, even expanded if necessary to capture all of those elements, one would think for much less money (and maintain it's current less-than-optimal connectivity to downtown, rather than making it even less optimally located.


In comparison to metro areas of similar size, it is relatively small. McCormick Place in Chicago, for example, is a behemoth at 3 times the size of KBH.

Furthermore, this is a 70 year old facility. You can only do so much polishing of something up there in age before it becomes a money pit. Again, you can see the study which highlights the extensive ans costly repairs that would be required.

Also, IMO, it's in the city's best interest to secure funding for construction *NOW* while financing costs are still historically low, because it's only going to become exponentially expensive to replace KBH (which will inevitably have to happen sooner or later) in the coming years with the now hawkish monetary policy and increasing inflationary pressures.
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 17:08

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:I think it is safe to assume the huge boom in hotels they've seen (which, BTW, have made up majority of the new high rises & infill in downtown Nashville) is in large part because of the new demand the convention center is/was presumed to generate.


I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. Hasn't downtown Dallas also had a solid boom in new hotels in recent years?


Not nearly to the extent that Nashville has. It's on a whole 'nother level there.


Perhaps. But the other attractions in the downtown Nashville area are also on a whole 'nother level.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 17:09

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:[

Part of the city's plans (which were also in the study) includes establishing a public-private partnership to drastically improve connectivity with the rest of downtown, with more park space & housing.


This is my favorite. For decades, the city has been trying to get hotels etc to develop around the convention center. They finally gave up and built one themselves. Then when the grand hotel didn't generate the predicted spinoffs of further development, they built another building to get some restaurants nearby.

NOW, they suddenly have plans to drastically improve the connectivity??? If that can be done over the larger distance to the new convention center, why hasn't it been done over the current shorter distance? Drawing pretty renderings does not really constitute a plan.


My point was the city has taken into consideration the concern you raised about connectivity in their plans.
Last edited by Addison on 05 May 2022 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 17:10

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
I don't think that's a safe assumption at all. Hasn't downtown Dallas also had a solid boom in new hotels in recent years?


Not nearly to the extent that Nashville has. It's on a whole 'nother level there.


Perhaps. But the other attractions in the downtown Nashville area are also on a whole 'nother level.


Those "other attractions" have been there since forever.

Conversely, the hotel boom in particular didn't happen until after Music City Center came to fruition in 2011.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 17:18

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:[

Part of the city's plans (which were also in the study) includes establishing a public-private partnership to drastically improve connectivity with the rest of downtown, with more park space & housing.


This is my favorite. For decades, the city has been trying to get hotels etc to develop around the convention center. They finally gave up and built one themselves. Then when the grand hotel didn't generate the predicted spinoffs of further development, they built another building to get some restaurants nearby.

NOW, they suddenly have plans to drastically improve the connectivity??? If that can be done over the larger distance to the new convention center, why hasn't it been done over the current shorter distance? Drawing pretty renderings does not really constitute a plan.


My point was the city has taken into consideration the concern you raised about connectivity in their plans.


I guess if you consider pretty renderings to be "taking into consideration." Look forward to the upcoming plea for taxpayer funded/subsidized hotels, apartment buildings and restaurant space that is needed to make the new convention center marketable.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 17:21

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Not nearly to the extent that Nashville has. It's on a whole 'nother level there.


Perhaps. But the other attractions in the downtown Nashville area are also on a whole 'nother level.


Those "other attractions" have been there since forever.

Conversely, the hotel boom in particular didn't happen until after Music City Center came to fruition in 2011.


The Music City Center didn't open until 2013, and as I said above, the Country Music Hall of Fame had a huge addition around the same time. And, as we have seen in Dallas, many downtowns experienced booms in downtown hotels in this same general time frame; even those who had not built convention centers. Also, again, Nashville built a new center that was several times the size of their prior center. Dallas is not proposing any such leap, mostly just more shininess. All in all, Nashville's explosion of downtown hotels (which continues 9 years after their new convention center opened) has a lot more to do with the city exploding in popularity generally, sort of like Austin.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 05 May 2022 17:42

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:[
I'm optimistic that Dallas' proposed replacement of a relatively small and obsolete convention center will also put it in a totally different league, especially given its central location relative to the rest of the country and its excellent airport connectivity relative to most major cities.

And I wouldn't trivialize the number of organizers who value having new, shiny, spacious state-of-the-art facilities to host their events. The study completed by the city highlighted the number of conventions Dallas has lost out on because the organizers are plain disgusted by KBH (and that number wasn't miniscule).


Dallas's convention center is not really "relatively small" I'll grant you there are plenty of organizers looking for shiny. But the current center could be polished, remodeled, even expanded if necessary to capture all of those elements, one would think for much less money (and maintain it's current less-than-optimal connectivity to downtown, rather than making it even less optimally located.


In comparison to metro areas of similar size, it is relatively small. McCormick Place in Chicago, for example, is a behemoth at 3 times the size of KBH.

Furthermore, this is a 70 year old facility. You can only do so much polishing of something up there in age before it becomes a money pit. Again, you can see the study which highlights the extensive ans costly repairs that would be required.

Also, IMO, it's in the city's best interest to secure funding for construction *NOW* while financing costs are still historically low, because it's only going to become exponentially expensive to replace KBH (which will inevitably have to happen sooner or later) in the coming years with the now hawkish monetary policy and increasing inflationary pressures.


But of course there is no plan for anything remotely approaching the size of McCormick Place...(McCormick Place has 2.6 Million square feet of exhibit space; we are planning 800,000 square feet, which, by the way, is less exhibit space than we have now).

And the only part that is even close to 70 years old is the arena and maybe a little bit of space around the arena (built in 1957, so going on 65 years old). And of course, that's the part many hope they will save...

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Addison
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 19:12

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Perhaps. But the other attractions in the downtown Nashville area are also on a whole 'nother level.


Those "other attractions" have been there since forever.

Conversely, the hotel boom in particular didn't happen until after Music City Center came to fruition in 2011.


The Music City Center didn't open until 2013, and as I said above, the Country Music Hall of Fame had a huge addition around the same time. And, as we have seen in Dallas, many downtowns experienced booms in downtown hotels in this same general time frame; even those who had not built convention centers. Also, again, Nashville built a new center that was several times the size of their prior center. Dallas is not proposing any such leap, mostly just more shininess. All in all, Nashville's explosion of downtown hotels (which continues 9 years after their new convention center opened) has a lot more to do with the city exploding in popularity generally, sort of like Austin.


I know Music City Center didn't open until 2013. But it was under construction in 2011.

You keep saying that downtown Dallas experienced a hotel boom as big as Nashville. I know Downtown Dallas is seeing a bit of a boom currently with the Four Seasons and JW Marriott coming online, but I'm still skeptical and will need to see evidence that its hotel boom since 2011 has been on par with downtown Nashville. From 2011 to 2019, 25 *NEW* hotels have opened in downtown Nashville.

As far as the new convention center, it's quite an understatement to say it'a merely addressing "shininess." Besides the fact that would cost a 1/2 billion dollars just to address deferred maintenance for the existing facility, it's still lacking in ballrooms, sufficient storage space, connectivity between buildings is poor, the cargo elevators are poorly located, the kitchen space is inadequate, there are no service corridors, the dock area is exposed, the fixtures/systems are dated and the number of meeting rooms are well below industry standards (nor do they meet the industry standard size/layout).

Those issues go well beyond just look pretty, and any serious organization seeking a city to host an event would be turned off by them.

As far as your Austin comparison, that's really Apples vs. Oranges. I think it's generally agreed upon that the massive influx of tech industy dollars is what's igniting the growth in downtown Austin, not tourism unlike in Nashville.
Last edited by Addison on 05 May 2022 19:39, edited 2 times in total.

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Addison
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 19:26

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Dallas's convention center is not really "relatively small" I'll grant you there are plenty of organizers looking for shiny. But the current center could be polished, remodeled, even expanded if necessary to capture all of those elements, one would think for much less money (and maintain it's current less-than-optimal connectivity to downtown, rather than making it even less optimally located.


In comparison to metro areas of similar size, it is relatively small. McCormick Place in Chicago, for example, is a behemoth at 3 times the size of KBH.

Furthermore, this is a 70 year old facility. You can only do so much polishing of something up there in age before it becomes a money pit. Again, you can see the study which highlights the extensive ans costly repairs that would be required.

Also, IMO, it's in the city's best interest to secure funding for construction *NOW* while financing costs are still historically low, because it's only going to become exponentially expensive to replace KBH (which will inevitably have to happen sooner or later) in the coming years with the now hawkish monetary policy and increasing inflationary pressures.


But of course there is no plan for anything remotely approaching the size of McCormick Place...(McCormick Place has 2.6 Million square feet of exhibit space; we are planning 800,000 square feet, which, by the way, is less exhibit space than we have now).

And the only part that is even close to 70 years old is the arena and maybe a little bit of space around the arena (built in 1957, so going on 65 years old). And of course, that's the part many hope they will save...


As far as current exhibition space, KHB only has 1,000,000 sq. ft. of it, so not that big of a difference. However, the new center will include much more meeting space, ballroom space, and in total size it will be larger than the current center.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 19:33

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
This is my favorite. For decades, the city has been trying to get hotels etc to develop around the convention center. They finally gave up and built one themselves. Then when the grand hotel didn't generate the predicted spinoffs of further development, they built another building to get some restaurants nearby.

NOW, they suddenly have plans to drastically improve the connectivity??? If that can be done over the larger distance to the new convention center, why hasn't it been done over the current shorter distance? Drawing pretty renderings does not really constitute a plan.


My point was the city has taken into consideration the concern you raised about connectivity in their plans.


I guess if you consider pretty renderings to be "taking into consideration." Look forward to the upcoming plea for taxpayer funded/subsidized hotels, apartment buildings and restaurant space that is needed to make the new convention center marketable.


I'm not sure what your angle is here. It's not like connectivity is any better now with the current convention center (in fact, it's worse).

At this point, it's a matter of waiting until the Ts are crossed and the Is are dotted for construction (and construction is underway) to see if your skepticism is valid. For now, all we can ask is that the city acknowledges it will be a challenge and has a plan to addresd it, and they do which is a good thing.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 05 May 2022 19:37

KBH sucks.

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Addison
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Addison » 05 May 2022 19:38

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:KBH sucks.


Indeed.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tucy » 06 May 2022 11:09

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
My point was the city has taken into consideration the concern you raised about connectivity in their plans.


I guess if you consider pretty renderings to be "taking into consideration." Look forward to the upcoming plea for taxpayer funded/subsidized hotels, apartment buildings and restaurant space that is needed to make the new convention center marketable.


I'm not sure what your angle is here. It's not like connectivity is any better now with the current convention center (in fact, it's worse).

At this point, it's a matter of waiting until the Ts are crossed and the Is are dotted for construction (and construction is underway) to see if your skepticism is valid. For now, all we can ask is that the city acknowledges it will be a challenge and has a plan to addresd it, and they do which is a good thing.


How does building a new convention center further from the core of downtown create better connectivity?

In any event, we will indeed have to wait and see the results. Be sure to check back. I look forward to rapid announcements of dozens of new hotels with thousands of new rooms etc being developed as soon as the convention center is under construction. LOL

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 06 May 2022 14:42

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
I guess if you consider pretty renderings to be "taking into consideration." Look forward to the upcoming plea for taxpayer funded/subsidized hotels, apartment buildings and restaurant space that is needed to make the new convention center marketable.


I'm not sure what your angle is here. It's not like connectivity is any better now with the current convention center (in fact, it's worse).

At this point, it's a matter of waiting until the Ts are crossed and the Is are dotted for construction (and construction is underway) to see if your skepticism is valid. For now, all we can ask is that the city acknowledges it will be a challenge and has a plan to addresd it, and they do which is a good thing.


How does building a new convention center further from the core of downtown create better connectivity?

In any event, we will indeed have to wait and see the results. Be sure to check back. I look forward to rapid announcements of dozens of new hotels with thousands of new rooms etc being developed as soon as the convention center is under construction. LOL


Have u even been to the KBH? Hell, Replacing KBH with a parking lot would be an improvement as that allows the possiblity to reconnect the street grid. Take an birds eye view of the KBH. No building in a downtown should be that damn large and imposing. It literally blocks the south end of downtown.

The new convention center suspended over i30 allows us to precisely connect southern Downtown to the rest of the core.
And if Dallas is smart enough, they'll make sure the convention center nicely integrates with the Cedars. Making even better connectivity possible.

Also with as much pessimism as we have with new Hotels being announced with new convention center... Rebuilding the convention is the right choice long term. KBH is getting more expensive to maintain, it sucks, it's imposing and creates a roadblock, that land its on is better used for other development, also it sucks again.

Give me parking lots over KBH. At least there's hope with parking lots.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby flyswatter » 07 May 2022 19:50

Speaking of parking lots, how useless and imposing is that parking garage off the viaducts? What a waste of space.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 08 May 2022 13:40

flyswatter wrote:Speaking of parking lots, how useless and imposing is that parking garage off the viaducts? What a waste of space.

That was part of the reunion arena. They never tore it down. Idk why...

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Newpark Dallas/Smart District

Postby tamtagon » 08 May 2022 14:41

It was built to support a skyscraper.