Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... south-side

Bold skyscraper campus would energize downtown Dallas' south side
Steve Brown, Real Estate Editor

Builder KDC has teamed up with landowner Hoque Global to plan the more than 20-acre skyscraper campus on the south side of downtown. Located between Dallas City Hall and Interstate 30, the 8-block urban project would include office towers, retail and hotel space. It's one of the largest developments ever proposed for downtown. Award winning international architect Pelli Clarke Pelli has designed the dramatic campus....Called Dallas Smart District, the planned urban development would stretch along Canton Street from the Farmers Market to the convention center.

For some reason, the attachments would not load, something about a quota?

So, I guess, does Turkish Mike still own any of this land? I thought at one point that organization had much of the property.... also, does this officially end the Re:Vision Dallas and the design charette winner? http://www.prweb.com/releases/sustainab ... 479114.htm

This proposal hits the target of Amazon's 8 million sq ft of office space, maybe it'll hit the bullseye.

Also, one of the pictures indicates a highrise taking the place of the Municipal Auditorium. What's up with that? Dallas needs the medium size space renovated and updated, not eliminated.

Omigod! Omigod! Omidgod!

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... south-side

Developers who built Plano's $3 billion Legacy West project are eyeing a vacant corner of downtown Dallas for a major mixed-use project.

Builder KDC has teamed up with landowner Hoque Global to plan the more than 20-acre skyscraper campus on the south side of downtown.

Located between Dallas City Hall and Interstate 30, the 8-block urban project would include office towers, retail and hotel space. It's one of the largest developments ever proposed for downtown.

$20 says it doesn't happen.

tamtagon wrote:
Also, one of the pictures indicates a highrise taking the place of the Municipal Auditorium. What's up with that? Dallas needs the medium size space renovated and updated, not eliminated.

Looks like it could be a second Convention Center hotel assumption.

As for the larger project, I assume KDC and Hogue Global are requiring some pretty extensive tenants sign on the dotted line before they turn a single piece of soil over. This is a spec project I am sure and Amazon won't like it cause it has no transit. The Convention Center station is disconnected and too far. The D2 line was moved away from Young Street so that won't even be in the cards. This will be on KDC and Hogue Globals shoulders to secure one of those big tenants who will be willing to wait. They certainly won't build the tallest tower without a sure thing. I will be more excited when they announce a tenant cause most big tenants have been requiring office space that is available in two years or a year not 3 of 4 years from now. KDC is fast but unless they start building soon it will have a pretty significant lead time till occupiable space.

Here are the renderings from the article:

tamtagon wrote:
So, I guess, does Turkish Mike still own any of this land? I thought at one point that organization had much of the property.... also, does this officially end the Re:Vision Dallas and the design charette winner? http://www.prweb.com/releases/sustainab ... 479114.htm

Turkish Mike most likely had an option on the property. I don't think he ever purchased it. Same thing with the hotel property he "bought" for the Trump Scion hotel. You get the landowner to agree to an agreement to sell it to you so in the papers people think oh he bought it. When in actuality you haven't purchased anything just spent some money on legal paperwork.

xen0blue wrote:https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2017/10/18/bold-skyscraper-campus-energize-downtown-dallas-south-side

Developers who built Plano's $3 billion Legacy West project are eyeing a vacant corner of downtown Dallas for a major mixed-use project.

Builder KDC has teamed up with landowner Hoque Global to plan the more than 20-acre skyscraper campus on the south side of downtown.

Located between Dallas City Hall and Interstate 30, the 8-block urban project would include office towers, retail and hotel space. It's one of the largest developments ever proposed for downtown.

$20 says it doesn't happen.

It's ambitious. It's a stretch- but if KDC is attached to it, I'm hopeful. I didn't think Legacy West would be at build out so soon and boom! there it is.

I like the idea of this plan but I think Dallas shouldn't totally hinge everything on Amazon. Hopefully Dallas is working on some things behind closed doors to gain another company's headquarters or steal one from suburbs of North Texas.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:This is a spec project I am sure and Amazon won't like it cause it has no transit.

True, but, I know with the Midtown development, they were willing to create a new station specifically for Amazon that would spur off the Cotton Belt Line. Perhaps it's not unreasonable to think they would do the same here?

With that said, I still think the Victory Park proposal is the superior choice, but this is a pretty cool looking rendering.

mwaskow wrote:Here are the renderings from the article:

Well, whether this happens or not (or happens like this or not), it sure puts a new spin on the downtown skyline--albeit a somewhat retro-1970s squared/glassy look.

Hopefully, this happens and they destroy the convention center along the way!

Whoa, this is promising. I'm sure a streetcar line could be looped through this area to snag this kind of investment. Doesn't one of the proposed D2 DART lines also run right by City Hall on the north side of this project?

Also, at "about 200 feet taller than Bank of America Tower," this would be the tallest building in Texas. And possibly the tallest west of the Mississippi. And top 10 in the nation (about on par with John Hancock Tower in Chicago *I originally accidentally said Sears Tower*). Pretty exciting.

I'll add that if this does get built and they do explore new transit line options, a streetcar or light rail down Ervay from Thanksgiving Square through this area, then south through the Cedars would probably make the Cedars area explode with development and let all that potential it has come to fruition.

From a transit perspective, this would have fit perfectly with my idea of running a D2 (or, D3) line at grade from just below the convention center, up Canton, then up Pearl to reconnect with rail adjacent to the Spire site. I still think that would be a great route in the future... when growth along southern edge of CBD eventually materializes.

jrd1964 wrote:

mwaskow wrote:Here are the renderings from the article:

Well, whether this happens or not (or happens like this or not), it sure puts a new spin on the downtown skyline--albeit a somewhat retro-1970s squared/glassy look.

These aren't the "real" renderings. It seems to me that these were done more for the purpose of representing the project's general mass and scale. This isn't likely how any of the structures would actually look, especially if it is Pelli Clarke Pelli-designed.

Matt777 wrote:Whoa, this is promising. I'm sure a streetcar line could be looped through this area to snag this kind of investment. Doesn't one of the proposed D2 DART lines also run right by City Hall on the north side of this project?

Also, at "about 200 feet taller than Bank of America Tower," this would be the tallest building in Texas. And possibly the tallest west of the Mississippi. And top 10 in the nation (about on par with Sears Tower). Pretty exciting.

Hardly on par with Sears Tower. Willis (Sears) Tower is the 2nd tallest building in America and would still be more than 300 feet taller than this fantasy building.

This swath of downtown has as much (or more) potential as any comparable acreage in Texas. It will be redeveloped eventually, piece by piece, chunk by chunk, or all at once, whatever. The location is what they call a diamond in the rough. Certainly would help activate the dead-end side of the convention center....

Tucy wrote:

Matt777 wrote:Whoa, this is promising. I'm sure a streetcar line could be looped through this area to snag this kind of investment. Doesn't one of the proposed D2 DART lines also run right by City Hall on the north side of this project?

Also, at "about 200 feet taller than Bank of America Tower," this would be the tallest building in Texas. And possibly the tallest west of the Mississippi. And top 10 in the nation (about on par with Sears Tower). Pretty exciting.

Hardly on par with Sears Tower. Willis (Sears) Tower is the 2nd tallest building in America and would still be more than 300 feet taller than this fantasy building.

Given BoA's height of 921 feet, the proposed 78-story tower would be more on par with the new comcast technology center tower in Philly (1,121 feet) or the John Hancock Center building in Chicago (1,127 feet).

Even if the height of all these proposed towers got lobbed in half, I would still be stoked if it got built. This half of CBD needs some major help.

Goodness, that is an exciting one! Very eyecatching too, gotta think that could really put Dallas as a top contender. The idea of Pelli doing an entire area is awesome as well.

Tucy wrote:

Matt777 wrote:Whoa, this is promising. I'm sure a streetcar line could be looped through this area to snag this kind of investment. Doesn't one of the proposed D2 DART lines also run right by City Hall on the north side of this project?

Also, at "about 200 feet taller than Bank of America Tower," this would be the tallest building in Texas. And possibly the tallest west of the Mississippi. And top 10 in the nation (about on par with Sears Tower). Pretty exciting.

Hardly on par with Sears Tower. Willis (Sears) Tower is the 2nd tallest building in America and would still be more than 300 feet taller than this fantasy building.

I meant John Hancock. I always mix those two up, always. I corrected my post. It would still be top 10 if it is 200ft taller than BoA Tower, though.

Matt777 wrote:

Tucy wrote:

Matt777 wrote:Whoa, this is promising. I'm sure a streetcar line could be looped through this area to snag this kind of investment. Doesn't one of the proposed D2 DART lines also run right by City Hall on the north side of this project?

Also, at "about 200 feet taller than Bank of America Tower," this would be the tallest building in Texas. And possibly the tallest west of the Mississippi. And top 10 in the nation (about on par with Sears Tower). Pretty exciting.

Hardly on par with Sears Tower. Willis (Sears) Tower is the 2nd tallest building in America and would still be more than 300 feet taller than this fantasy building.

I meant John Hancock. I always mix those two up, always. I corrected my post. It would still be top 10 if it is 200ft taller than BoA Tower, though.

Yes, it would. But keep in mind, in Steve Brown-speak, "about 200 feet" really means "less than 200 feet."

It is about time Dallas get back into the tallest tower game. There was a short period of time since the turn of the century, that I almost started to believe skyscrapers were a thing of the past... people were saying too expensive to build, no reason for the extra expense because of the endless edge of town, that ego-building was a flash, but it's not. I'm glad because I like looking at skyscrapers!

I don't know if I would want a 1,500 footer in Dallas until two or three new ~1,100 footers set a foundation in the clouds.

Is there any reason to take this rendering seriously?

It looks incredible, but it just seems like a fantasy rendering that will never happen (at least not in the next decade).

^ It very much looks like it was put together for the Amazon bid.

This is exciting, but dont hold your breath. HOPEFULLY they have another tenant in mind other than Amazon, because the Victory Park proposal is probably going to be the winner with how much work Amazon has done with Perot and the other names attached at victory park.

If it is a true thing that actually gets momentum....dear GOD please dont build that tallest building to be just a damn glass box, too bad city hall is too lazy to get off their ass and do form based zoning to force creativity. Hopefully at least with the name attached they come up with something halfway decent, because a glass box would be an eyesore.

But just look at what happened with Hillwoods/ Perots proposal and initial designs for their tower to see that this most likely is just for sense of scale , now we are seeing the same design being carried over into the Amazon Victory park campus proposal. So this likely should change into something more creative, but we really....REALLY need to put pressure on the developers if this moves forward to actually be creative as a design.

Fingers crossed this isnt yet another Dallas Unbuilt.

whi5125 wrote:This is exciting, but dont hold your breath. HOPEFULLY they have another tenant in mind other than Amazon, because the Victory Park proposal is probably going to be the winner with how much work Amazon has done with Perot and the other names attached at victory park.

If it is a true thing that actually gets momentum....dear GOD please dont build that tallest building to be just a damn glass box, too bad city hall is too lazy to get off their ass and do form based zoning to force creativity. Hopefully at least with the name attached they come up with something halfway decent, because a glass box would be an eyesore.

But just look at what happened with Hillwoods/ Perots proposal and initial designs for their tower to see that this most likely is just for sense of scale , now we are seeing the same design being carried over into the Amazon Victory park campus proposal. So this likely should change into something more creative, but we really....REALLY need to put pressure on the developers if this moves forward to actually be creative as a design.

Fingers crossed this isnt yet another Dallas Unbuilt.

I think this is a better location for Amazon compared to the VP proposal. It seems like the VP proposal is pieced together throughout the available lots of victory park. Also, Perot's signature tower is located on the other side of a major highway...

This location doesn't have the same accessibility to dart, but it definitely looks to be more of a singular village.

Mgreen15 wrote:I think this is a better location for Amazon compared to the VP proposal. It seems like the VP proposal is pieced together throughout the available lots of victory park. Also, Perot's signature tower is located on the other side of a major highway...

This location doesn't have the same accessibility to dart, but it defientely looks to be more of a singular village.

That's a good point. I still like the DART accessibility of Victory Park, but it's nice that we seem to have two strong proposals.

This one is in the CBD, so no reason a D3 line can't be built that would service this area.

[quote="Mgreen15"][quote="whi5125"]This is exciting, but dont hold your breath. HOPEFULLY they have another tenant in mind other than Amazon, because the Victory Park proposal is probably going to be the winner with how much work Amazon has done with Perot and the other names attached at victory park.

If it is a true thing that actually gets momentum....dear GOD please dont build that tallest building to be just a damn glass box, too bad city hall is too lazy to get off their ass and do form based zoning to force creativity. Hopefully at least with the name attached they come up with something halfway decent, because a glass box would be an eyesore.

But just look at what happened with Hillwoods/ Perots proposal and initial designs for their tower to see that this most likely is just for sense of scale , now we are seeing the same design being carried over into the Amazon Victory park campus proposal. So this likely should change into something more creative, but we really....REALLY need to put pressure on the developers if this moves forward to actually be creative as a design.

Fingers crossed this isnt yet another Dallas Unbuilt.[/quote]

I think this is a better location for Amazon compared to the VP proposal. It seems like the VP proposal is pieced together throughout the available lots of victory park. Also, Perot's signature tower is located on the other side of a major highway...

This location doesn't have the same accessibility to dart, but it definitely looks to be more of a singular village.[/quote]

Currently Amazon HQ is situated across 33 different buildings through out downtown Seattle.

The distance between Perot tower and Victory is like an 8 min walk. That's nothing.

tamtagon wrote:I don't know if I would want a 1,500 footer in Dallas until two or three new ~1,100 footers set a foundation in the clouds.

The last thirty years have brought no building taller than 560 ft (ok, 562’ if you count AMLI). Bank of America is likely to be the tallest building in Dallas for at least the next thirty years.

I especially like this way this would stretch the skyline south and fill up a bunch of vacant lots. Bonus, near the HSR station.

According to the DBJ, there is an initial phase for this project and contstruction is set to begin late next year.

"The initial phase includes 600,000 square feet to 1 million square feet of office space, a major grocer, a food hall, boutique hotel with residences and green space."

"Construction is slated to begin on the initial phase of the project by late 2018."

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... urban.html

Mgreen15 wrote:According to the DBJ, there is an initial phase for this project and contstruction is set to begin late next year.

"The initial phase includes 600,000 square feet to 1 million square feet of office space, a major grocer, a food hall, boutique hotel with residences and green space."

"Construction is slated to begin on the initial phase of the project by late 2018."

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... urban.html

That totally changes the conversation. Escpically, if they are actually looking to start not too long from now.

Without a major tenant, I'm still highly skeptical. Unless they nabbed Amazon and we just don't know it yet (although it seems way too soon for that).

EDIT: Also, another food hall? I wonder if this is close enough to be more of an extension of the Farmer's Market Food Hall, rather than it's own separate entity.

If this were any developer other than KDC I would say it was more of a marketing ploy than not.

However, we all know KDC is the absolute "gold standard" in developers in Dallas and the Dallas region.

What project has KDC attached their name to - as they have so prominently this one and many others - that has not come to fruition???

This is not a pipe dream and with KDC being the developer the prospect of it becoming reality is a given.

I muse this is not being pitched solely as an Amazon proposal ... sure if Amazon were to bite what a huge catalyst to kick off the whole project in mass rather than in phases ... but KDC is a savvy developer and they see the huge office leasing numbers that Dallas and the Dallas region are putting up quarter after quarter (number one in the nation in net office leasing absorption and number two in office construction) and they see Downtown as an obvious huge opportunity.

So MANY positives have coalesced Downtown in the last 5 or 6 years that all the ingredients are there percolating to generate even greater growth than what has been seen to date, which has more largely been occurring in the Uptown and Victory Park districts of the central core.

KDC sees that growth happening elsewhere in the central CBD core with Uptown and Victory Park getting largely built out. And it is not coincidental that their skyscraper park is so close to the imminent HSR terminal.

What has happened over the past 30 years really has nothing to do with the present and the future.

Dallas and the Dallas area is absolutely golden on the national and international map with nowhere to go but up even higher. KDC sees this and is making a very smart and savvy business move to capitalize on Dallas' upward trajectory.

DPatel304 wrote:Without a major tenant, I'm still highly skeptical. Unless they nabbed Amazon and we just don't know it yet (although it seems way too soon for that).

EDIT: Also, another food hall? I wonder if this is close enough to be more of an extension of the Farmer's Market Food Hall, rather than it's own separate entity.

I have the same sentiments regarding the tenant situation. Maybe they’re very confident in landing a tenant or maybe they're in talks with one. There’s a lot that we don’t know...

whi5125 wrote:If it is a true thing that actually gets momentum....dear GOD please dont build that tallest building to be just a damn glass box

Doubt it, check out Pelli's portfolio.

http://pcparch.com/projects/headquarter ... -buildings

The only thing that bugs me is that it looks like the 105 year old Eagle's Nest Cathedral would be demolished, and a parking structure put in its place. It's hard to tell but I don't see it in the renderings. There's got to be a way to preserve it. It doesn't take up much land and could become a great restaurant space or something creative. It would be a beautiful food hall.

What a lovely building. Best wishes to the preservation.

Preservation of Dallas’s history and architecture is critical to maintaining its unique identity. Eagles Nest is a beautiful building. I’ve always wondered what it looks like inside. I hope everything that can be done is done to preserve it.

Y’all, I just seen a clip of an animation featuring the Dallas Smart District on Good Day. It was shown briefly and I’m trying to search for it on the internet. Did anybody see it this morning as well?

Ill be honest, I could care less about the historic value of the Eagles Nest. Its never used hardly, fenced off, and provides little value. Also historic is in the eye of the beholder, it isnt that unique of a building anyway. And if it means bull dozing it down to get this game changing district built in a part of town that sorely needs investment, I would volunteer to operate the wrecking ball myself.

Lets be honest, Dallas is not an old city and aside from the well known places of value like deep ellum, greenvile , old east Dallas,the west end etc, along with original skyscrapers and towers in downtownlike the Mercantile there, us labeling anything that is over 50 years old as "historic" is a joke.

whi5125 wrote:Ill be honest, I could care less about the historic value of the Eagles Nest. Its never used hardly, fenced off, and provides little value. Also historic is in the eye of the beholder, it isnt that unique of a building anyway. And if it means bull dozing it down to get this game changing district built in a part of town that sorely needs investment, I would volunteer to operate the wrecking ball myself.

Lets be honest, Dallas is not an old city and aside from the well known places of value like deep ellum, greenvile , old east Dallas,the west end etc, along with original skyscrapers and towers in downtownlike the Mercantile there, us labeling anything that is over 50 years old as "historic" is a joke.

That's not exactly the best attitude. Do you really thing one block would derail this project from moving forward? Short-term thinking is the reason why Dallas suffers with an identity crisis in the first place.

whi5125 wrote:Ill be honest, I could care less about the historic value of the Eagles Nest. Its never used hardly, fenced off, and provides little value. Also historic is in the eye of the beholder, it isnt that unique of a building anyway. And if it means bull dozing it down to get this game changing district built in a part of town that sorely needs investment, I would volunteer to operate the wrecking ball myself.

Lets be honest, Dallas is not an old city and aside from the well known places of value like deep ellum, greenvile , old east Dallas,the west end etc, along with original skyscrapers and towers in downtownlike the Mercantile there, us labeling anything that is over 50 years old as "historic" is a joke.

Regardless, of how you personally feel...it’s still historic. In my opinion, if a structure cannot be built with the same exact architecture, style, etc. it should be deemed historic. Value and usage does not dictate weather a structure is historic or not. Buildings such as this cannot be replicated. There’s no way that someone would come along and build a structure to that exact same standard today. The cost it would take to do so would be unreasonable.

Honestly, that kind of thinking is what led to the demolition of numerous historic buildings throughout Dallas. I think people fail to realize, once it’s gone...it’s gone.

To be fair some of the "Historic" buildings in Dallas are not even attempted to be preserved until a developer comes along. This is what irks me. We need to find ways to get these buildings identified ASAP and restored.

Many times I've seen old buildings,houses claimed to be historical, that have be n vacant or really bad conditions for years.

It's hard for people to see their historical value if they been treated like dirt for ages.

Does this pharisee still use that building?!?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._V._Grant

Eagles Nest Cathedral[edit]
Grant was released from prison on September 18, 1997, "and has since restarted his ministry, again under the name Eagles Nest Cathedral, in the eastern part of Dallas."[15]
In August 2012, W.V. Grant purchased a historic property in downtown Dallas. The former home of "First Church of Christ, Scientist," located at 1508 Cadiz Street, Dallas, Texas 75201 where "The Eagle's Nest Cathedral" and Grant now hold almost nightly services normally lasting from 7:00 PM – 9:00 PM.

You gotta keep something unique in the New Millennial masterplan, this cathedral would be perfect!!!!

Also, this building has been one of my favorite fantasy homes!

[/quote]
Regardless, of how you personally feel...it’s still historic. In my opinion, if a structure cannot be built with the same exact architecture, style, etc. it should be deemed historic. Value and usage does not dictate weather a structure is historic or not. Buildings such as this cannot be replicated. There’s no way that someone would come along and build a structure to that exact same standard today. The cost it would take to do so would be unreasonable.

Honestly, that kind of thinking is what led to the demolition of numerous historic buildings throughout Dallas. I think people fail to realize, once it’s gone...it’s gone.[/quote]

And thats a joke. Its just an old worn down building. Historic is only truly historic if the thing is being used or has the ability to bring value to a community if it was restored and used. Identity is harder to qualify and sure, plenty of buildings in Dallas that were unique were town down that shouldnt have been in the 50s and 60s.

But if you have an old building that offers little value even if unique, and is abandoned and left rotting only for people to clamor "oh its historic!" when a developer comes along to try and revamp an area with a large multi building development that will need to tear down the rotting "historic" building....I roll my eyes. 90 percent of the time its the owner of those decrepit buildings are just wanting to get more money to sell their land anyway.

And as for character of Dallas having been lost....yes, some of it was torn down and lost....and that is in the past, cant fix that now. You know what adds lost character? Developments like this, Dallas is still a young city and can create its own....and large developments in the CBD like this do a lot more to accomplish that than a nearly abandoned building surrounded by parking lots.

whi5125 wrote:...You know what adds lost character? Developments like this....

Here's how I would form that Q & A: You know what adds lots of character? Developments like this with a hundred year old cathedral!

^^^^

Well, you’re entitled to your opinion but many of those building became abandoned because of the crappy urban planning of the past. This building is not abandoned and is currently being occupied.

Everything doesn’t have to be bulldozed to build a new development. Dallas is a young city but it appears younger because nearly everything of historic value was torn down. Anyway...I digress. I don’t want to derail this thread

I'll believe it when I see those "announcements" the DBJ article mentions and once the dirt starts moving.

But this project, even with glass boxes, would redeem many of Dallas's urban shortcomings. It would be promising...