Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Anything happening here?

Have they gotten their zoning approval from the City of Dallas?

Tucy wrote:Anything happening here?

Have they gotten their zoning approval from the City of Dallas?

Based on Dallas' zoning GIS map, no.

Keep in mind one of the biggest hurdles is still the city is backed up like a mf* in its approval process. It's such a big problem I guarantee more than one large developer has shelved a project for something they can get approved faster in the burbs. Stuff we can't see could be causing the city to throw it back at the developer for changes and the project has to get back in line again for council review.

Not sure if this is same project.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... tle-creek/

DFW wrote:Not sure if this is same project.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... tle-creek/

It is not.

This assisted living/condo tower in the story you posted would be on the corner of Turtle Creek and Fairmount.

The corner at Turtle Creek and Cedar Springs is slated for the new Four Seasons hotel and condos. https://www.fourseasonsturtlecreek.com (There was an office building planned for the lot previously.)

undefinedprocess wrote:

Tucy wrote:Anything happening here?

Have they gotten their zoning approval from the City of Dallas?

Based on Dallas' zoning GIS map, no.

Have they even applied for rezoning?

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Keep in mind one of the biggest hurdles is still the city is backed up like a mf* in its approval process. It's such a big problem I guarantee more than one large developer has shelved a project for something they can get approved faster in the burbs. Stuff we can't see could be causing the city to throw it back at the developer for changes and the project has to get back in line again for council review.

Are rezoning approvals that backed up or just building permits? FWIW, I don't think this project has gotten to the point of seeking building permits. AFAIK, they don't even have the property rezoned yet.

Can they get 454 feet approved? That seems high for this close to Love.

Tnexster wrote:Can they get 454 feet approved? That seems high for this close to Love.

I think the FAA already approved the height. That is the least of their issues...

What are the other issues?

R1070 wrote:What are the other issues?

It's not much more than an educated guess, but it usually come down to financing.

Late note: threads merged and condensed.

CTroyMathis wrote:Late note: threads merged and condensed.

When they condensed the threads, they cut out the renderings of the tower itself. Mods, please reinstate my post that had the link to those renderings of the tower building.

rono3849 wrote:

CTroyMathis wrote:Late note: threads merged and condensed.

When they condensed the threads, they cut out the renderings of the tower itself. Mods, please reinstate my post that had the link to those renderings of the tower building.

Wouldn't it have been about as easy to just re-post the link?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gWKKZh ... DqfAs/view

Tucy wrote:the link?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gWKKZh ... DqfAs/view

Thanks for (re)posting this. This will be a really elegant and well designed building, but I love how the Cedar Springs elevation is omitted from the presentation (pp. 32-34), probably because it would show a giant slab of highrise that will block every Uptown/Downtown view from the Renaissance condos across the street.

I am late to the party on this one. Any time frame mentioned on when they are gonna break ground on this project?

$750 million project with Four Seasons and condos gets thumbs up on Dallas’ Turtle Creek

Dallas’ city council voted Wednesday for zoning changes needed to construct the Four Seasons high-rise at Turtle Creek Boulevard and Cedar Springs Road.

The planned tower will include what developers say will be a 5-star hotel plus 100 to 125 condominium homes.

Award-winning architectural firm Pelli Clarke Pelli and Dallas’ HKS are designing the more than 30-story mixed-use tower.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... tle-creek/

Some data for the thread:

As of July 19, 2022, this has zoning approval. Information regarding a general contractor and construction timeline hasn't been confirmed.

Wow 30 stories above grade? That's amazing! Would be a gamechanger in that area!

Yes, after the first tower in the neighborhood jumped right past 20 stories in the 1950s, it was surprising that the corridor took until Y2K to clear 300 feet above grade:

https://www.emporis.com/buildings/11837 ... las-tx-usa
https://www.emporis.com/buildings/11832 ... las-tx-usa

The valuation is interesting since it's 750,000,000. A lot compared to the others about to kick off construction.

Tnexster wrote:The valuation is interesting since it's 750,000,000. A lot compared to the others about to kick off construction.

I noticed that too. Maybe the ginormous glass porte cochère isn't going to come cheap.

There's a truck with what looks like a soil sample drill on the site now.

With the news re: the apparent demise of the proposed Mandarin Oriental, it seemed like a good time for an update/checkup on the Four Seasons. They have zoning approval. They don't appear to have applied for any building permits. They appear to be in the very early stages of pre-sale marketing for the condos; other than that, no news re: financing.

Tucy wrote:With the news re: the apparent demise of the proposed Mandarin Oriental, it seemed like a good time for an update/checkup on the Four Seasons. They have zoning approval. They don't appear to have applied for any building permits. They appear to be in the very early stages of pre-sale marketing for the condos; other than that, no news re: financing.

Most likely, they won't break ground until they sell a certain percentage of those condos, in order to secure financing.

Unfortunately, that could be a while.

Interesting to see that Culturemap just posted an article citing the Four Seasons as being on track for a 2025 opening. I also wonder why the FS Las Colinas is still taking reservations on the FS website into next year. I would think that because of the flag change to Ritz there would be an end date to future reservations.

Also the Mandarin Dallas is still on their website as a future residential opening. Do we know for sure that is dead?

Dallasretail wrote:Interesting to see that Culturemap just posted an article citing the Four Seasons as being on track for a 2025 opening. I also wonder why the FS Las Colinas is still taking reservations on the FS website into next year. I would think that because of the flag change to Ritz there would be an end date to future reservations.

Also the Mandarin Dallas is still on their website as a future residential opening. Do we know for sure that is dead?

That is interesting re: the Las Colinas Four Seasons. But note that it puts up a big notice that as of December 31, 2022 it will no longer be managed by Four Seasons. Has the Ritz-Carlton deal been finalized/announced? I took a brief look at the R-C website and didn’t find it.

Mid-December (tentatively) FS in Las Colinas will be taken over by Marriott corporate. It will go under the title of (The?) "Las Colinas Resort", and, internally the employees (current or newly-hired) will start their kool-aid intake of RC brand standards and everything else that goes along with the brand. Apparently, it will be somewhere in the vicinity of 18 months-ish from the end of this year before we will see the real-deal "The Ritz-Carlton" branding. Might have something to do with finishing out a good-sized remodeling of the property before putting the signs up and raising the flag, not entirely sure. I imagine reservations may stay on a current platform and migrate later, who knows. Probably a challenge they are working out.

As of last month, I started getting lots of ads on my youtube viewing from Four Seasons, just brand ads showing off the style of service they offer, Nothing Dallas-specific at all. While obviously, they can read that I have typed Four Seasons once or twice through things like cookies, I wonder if they recently started advertising to people who live near the planned hotel and residences. I live within two blocks of this site and have been for over a year, so not sure if more money is being spent on those nearby to increase positive brand affinity or if they just advertise to someone because they use the words iFour Seasons lol.

Has construction started yet?

cowboyeagle05 wrote:As of last month, I started getting lots of ads on my youtube viewing from Four Seasons, just brand ads showing off the style of service they offer, Nothing Dallas-specific at all. While obviously, they can read that I have typed Four Seasons once or twice through things like cookies, I wonder if they recently started advertising to people who live near the planned hotel and residences. I live within two blocks of this site and have been for over a year, so not sure if more money is being spent on those nearby to increase positive brand affinity or if they just advertise to someone because they use the words iFour Seasons lol.

I've been getting them a lot as well. However, all I watch on YouTube is soccer stuff so maybe it's a Dallas thing.

Ditto on the Four Seasons ads.

RodB wrote:Has construction started yet?

No. I don’t think they have even applied for building permits yet. I suspect they need some condo presales to get their financing done and they seem to be in the very early stages of marketing for those presales.

Still can't find any building permit applications for this. Any news, rumblings, rumors, activity on the site?

Tucy wrote:Still can't find any building permit applications for this. Any news, rumblings, rumors, activity on the site?

You are the best detective about these towers. I think this one is frozen in amber like the Central Market Tower and so many other pretty renderings sitting in a drawer.

I speculate that it's still moving forward; the same developer completed a much more complicated $700 million Four Seasons tower in 2019...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Se ... ton_Street

I45Tex wrote:I speculate that it's still moving forward; the same developer completed a much more complicated $700 million Four Seasons tower in 2019...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Se ... ton_Street

What was more complicated about the Boston project?

Your post suggests people might be concerned the developer is incapable of pulling off this project. Those concerns were present and justifiable in the case of the apparently-dead Mandarin Oriental proposal across the street, but I haven't seen any suggestion that this project might not go forward because it's too complicated or that the developer is incapable. The skepticism is all about financing and the very-related matter of condo pre-sales.

Four Seasons would be foolish to completely abandon the DFW market, as if I'm not mistaken, they were still getting good business in Las Colinas and the change in banners was not their decision.

So I have no reason to believe this project won't happen eventually, even if it's been delayed due to economic reasons.

BTW, 2019 was a completely different economic environment. So that Boston project really has no relevancy in 2023 with the current state of the market.

Tucy wrote:I haven't seen any suggestion that this project might not go forward because it's too complicated or that the developer is incapable. The skepticism is all about financing and the very-related matter of condo pre-sales.

That’s fair, and I don’t have any insight on their past six months of capital markets or marketing.

Addison wrote:Four Seasons would be foolish to completely abandon the DFW market, as if I'm not mistaken, they were still getting good business in Las Colinas and the change in banners was not their decision.

So I have no reason to believe this project won't happen eventually, even if it's been delayed due to economic reasons.

BTW, 2019 was a completely different economic environment. So that Boston project really has no relevancy in 2023 with the current state of the market.

No doubt Four Seasons would like to have a hotel in the Dallas Fort Worth market. But they are not the ones driving this development or making the decisions about the driving. They do not own the property, are not building (or planning to build) the hotel and condos, and will not own them if/when they are built. They have merely agreed to manage the property. Four Seasons' interest in or eagerness to return to the DFW market will have little ,if any, impact on whether or when this gets built.

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:Four Seasons would be foolish to completely abandon the DFW market, as if I'm not mistaken, they were still getting good business in Las Colinas and the change in banners was not their decision.

So I have no reason to believe this project won't happen eventually, even if it's been delayed due to economic reasons.

BTW, 2019 was a completely different economic environment. So that Boston project really has no relevancy in 2023 with the current state of the market.

No doubt Four Seasons would like to have a hotel in the Dallas Fort Worth market. But they are not the ones driving this development or making the decisions about the driving. They do not own the property, are not building (or planning to build) the hotel and condos, and will not own them if/when they are built. They have merely agreed to manage the property. Four Seasons' interest in or eagerness to return to the DFW market will have little ,if any, impact on whether or when this gets built.

Four Seasons' interest in this project will definitely have an impact on whether/when it gets built.

Having a high-profile hospitality brand signed on and taking up a significant amount of the proposed space will make it easier for the developer to secure financing.

Also, depending on how desperate/eager they are to return to the market, Four Seasons could certainly put pressure on the developer to expedite getting the necessary approvals/contracts in place to begin construction at the threat of abandoning the project altogether (which I'm sure the developer would rather not see happen, since the entire project hinges on their presence) if things drag on for too long.

More likely, Four Seasons just isn't in any hurry to expand their portfolio at this time given the uncertainty with the economy. And I can't blame them. There's no since in bringing more hotel rooms under your umbrella if you're not sure the demand will be there for them a year or several years from now.

" More likely, Four Seasons just isn't in any hurry to expand their portfolio at this time given the uncertainty with the economy. And I can't blame them. There's no since in bringing more hotel rooms under your umbrella if you're not sure the demand will be there for them a year or several years from now ".


That's the smartest observation and here is what I think: Four Seasons wants a Dallas option but can wait until 2025-26 to get there. For whatever reason Dallas is a very slow market for high end condos and the Turtle Creek market is cursed. The only market right now ( for a dense development here ) is residential.

How are they handling presales? I see no floorplans, no info at all. No pretty pictures. No ads.

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:Four Seasons would be foolish to completely abandon the DFW market, as if I'm not mistaken, they were still getting good business in Las Colinas and the change in banners was not their decision.

So I have no reason to believe this project won't happen eventually, even if it's been delayed due to economic reasons.

BTW, 2019 was a completely different economic environment. So that Boston project really has no relevancy in 2023 with the current state of the market.

No doubt Four Seasons would like to have a hotel in the Dallas Fort Worth market. But they are not the ones driving this development or making the decisions about the driving. They do not own the property, are not building (or planning to build) the hotel and condos, and will not own them if/when they are built. They have merely agreed to manage the property. Four Seasons' interest in or eagerness to return to the DFW market will have little ,if any, impact on whether or when this gets built.

Four Seasons' interest in this project will definitely have an impact on whether/when it gets built.

Having a high-profile hospitality brand signed on and taking up a significant amount of the proposed space will make it easier for the developer to secure financing.

Perhaps so, but it's pretty limited. (1) if Four Seasons for some reason pulled out, it would not be difficult to find another luxury flag to replace them. (I hear Mandarin Oriental is interested in having a hotel/condo in Dallas). (2) whatever the scale of Four Seasons' interest/urgency, this project is driven by the developers and their ability to get financing, which almost certainly leads back to condo sales. As to the presence of Four Seasons making financing easier, see point 1, above. Unless Four Seasons has some skin in the game (and we have seen no reason to think they do), their presence is likely to have minimal effect on the developer's ability to secure financing.

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:
No doubt Four Seasons would like to have a hotel in the Dallas Fort Worth market. But they are not the ones driving this development or making the decisions about the driving. They do not own the property, are not building (or planning to build) the hotel and condos, and will not own them if/when they are built. They have merely agreed to manage the property. Four Seasons' interest in or eagerness to return to the DFW market will have little ,if any, impact on whether or when this gets built.

Four Seasons' interest in this project will definitely have an impact on whether/when it gets built.

Having a high-profile hospitality brand signed on and taking up a significant amount of the proposed space will make it easier for the developer to secure financing.

Perhaps so, but it's pretty limited. (1) if Four Seasons for some reason pulled out, it would not be difficult to find another luxury flag to replace them. I hear Mandarin Oriental is interested in having a hotel/condo in Dallas). (2) whatever the scale of Four Seasons' interest/urgency, this project is driven by the developers and their ability to get financing, which almost certainly leads back to condo sales. As to the presence of Four Seasons making financing easier, see point 1, above. Unless Four Seasons has some skin in the game (and we have seen no reason to think they do), their presence is likely to have minimal effect on the developer's ability to secure financing.

As stated above, Dallas is probably on the same "nice to have at some point in the future, but in no hurry" list with Mandarin Oriental as it is with Four Seasons because of the economy, and the state of downtown's office market being in flux (hotels such as Four Seasons and Mandarin Oriental are heavily reliant on executive business travel).

Best believe, if they were really eager/desperate to establish a presence, they'd find a competent developer and push them to complete the project expeditiously.

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:
Four Seasons' interest in this project will definitely have an impact on whether/when it gets built.

Having a high-profile hospitality brand signed on and taking up a significant amount of the proposed space will make it easier for the developer to secure financing.

Perhaps so, but it's pretty limited. (1) if Four Seasons for some reason pulled out, it would not be difficult to find another luxury flag to replace them. I hear Mandarin Oriental is interested in having a hotel/condo in Dallas). (2) whatever the scale of Four Seasons' interest/urgency, this project is driven by the developers and their ability to get financing, which almost certainly leads back to condo sales. As to the presence of Four Seasons making financing easier, see point 1, above. Unless Four Seasons has some skin in the game (and we have seen no reason to think they do), their presence is likely to have minimal effect on the developer's ability to secure financing.

As stated above, Dallas is probably on the same "nice to have at some point in the future, but in no hurry" list wirh Mandarin Oriental as it is with Four Seasons because of the economy, and the state of downtown's office market being in flux (hotels such as Four Seasons and Mandarin Oriental are heavily reliant on executive business travel).

Best believe, if they were really eager/desperate to establish a presence, they'd find a competent developer and push them to complete the project expeditiously.

Hence my repeated point. At the end of the day, no matter how badly a luxury flag thinks they want in to the market, it's not gonna happen if the developer can't get financing. Full Stop. And unless a developer is willing to put up a great big giant chunk of equity, financing is not happening without significant pre-sales of condos.

I should mentiom, BTW, building just the hotel *WITHOUT* the condos is always an option (the Las Colinas hotel didn't have condos).

I can understand, however, why the developer may not prefer that option (it would make the project less profitable).

While the developers haven't been applying for building permits yet, the FAA clearance study cases for points A, B, C, and D now say they haven't been studied despite bearing date stamps from June 24, 2021:

2021-ASW-9292-OE 477'
2021-ASW-9293-OE 478'
2021-ASW-9294-OE 449'
2021-ASW-9295-OE 463'

Have these been updated to a different determined case document that doesn't link back to them anymore?

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:
Perhaps so, but it's pretty limited. (1) if Four Seasons for some reason pulled out, it would not be difficult to find another luxury flag to replace them. I hear Mandarin Oriental is interested in having a hotel/condo in Dallas). (2) whatever the scale of Four Seasons' interest/urgency, this project is driven by the developers and their ability to get financing, which almost certainly leads back to condo sales. As to the presence of Four Seasons making financing easier, see point 1, above. Unless Four Seasons has some skin in the game (and we have seen no reason to think they do), their presence is likely to have minimal effect on the developer's ability to secure financing.

As stated above, Dallas is probably on the same "nice to have at some point in the future, but in no hurry" list wirh Mandarin Oriental as it is with Four Seasons because of the economy, and the state of downtown's office market being in flux (hotels such as Four Seasons and Mandarin Oriental are heavily reliant on executive business travel).

Best believe, if they were really eager/desperate to establish a presence, they'd find a competent developer and push them to complete the project expeditiously.

Hence my repeated point. At the end of the day, no matter how badly a luxury flag thinks they want in to the market, it's not gonna happen if the developer can't get financing. Full Stop. And unless a developer is willing to put up a great big giant chunk of equity, financing is not happening without significant pre-sales of condos.

It *CAN* happen if the hotel operator is eager/desperate enough to enter/return to a market, although the way they go about it may not be conventional or popular with some folks.

One example would be the Sam Moon Group's project with JW Marriott, and another would be the Omni attached to KBH.

They will find a way to establish a presence as quickly as possible.

Addison wrote:

Tucy wrote:

Addison wrote:
As stated above, Dallas is probably on the same "nice to have at some point in the future, but in no hurry" list wirh Mandarin Oriental as it is with Four Seasons because of the economy, and the state of downtown's office market being in flux (hotels such as Four Seasons and Mandarin Oriental are heavily reliant on executive business travel).

Best believe, if they were really eager/desperate to establish a presence, they'd find a competent developer and push them to complete the project expeditiously.

Hence my repeated point. At the end of the day, no matter how badly a luxury flag thinks they want in to the market, it's not gonna happen if the developer can't get financing. Full Stop. And unless a developer is willing to put up a great big giant chunk of equity, financing is not happening without significant pre-sales of condos.

It *CAN* happen if the hotel operator is eager/desperate enough to enter/return to a market, although the way they go about it may not be conventional or popular with some folks.

One example would be the Sam Moon Group's project with JW Marriott, and another would be the Omni attached to KBH.

They will find a way to establish a presence a quickly as possible.

Yes, a hotel operator theoretically *CAN* make a hotel happen if they are eager/desperate enough. But it is exceedingly rare and there is no evidence of any flag being that eager/desperate to enter the Dallas market. You'll need to come up with better examples than those. Neither of those projects happened because of the eagerness of the hotel operator to plant their flag. They happened, in the case of the JW Marriott, because Sam Moon was able to put the package together and get it financed and signed up JW Marriott to operate it; and in the case of the Omni, because they city of Dallas wanted a convention hotel attached to the KBH so badly they just paid for it and went out and recruited a hotel operator.