Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 11:03

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Hence my repeated point. At the end of the day, no matter how badly a luxury flag thinks they want in to the market, it's not gonna happen if the developer can't get financing. Full Stop. And unless a developer is willing to put up a great big giant chunk of equity, financing is not happening without significant pre-sales of condos.


It *CAN* happen if the hotel operator is eager/desperate enough to enter/return to a market, although the way they go about it may not be conventional or popular with some folks.

One example would be the Sam Moon Group's project with JW Marriott, and another would be the Omni attached to KBH.

They will find a way to establish a presence a quickly as possible.


They happened, in the case of the JW Marriott, because Sam Moon was able to put the package together and get it financed.


No good reason why the same couldn't happen for the Four Seasons (and no, the developer trying to maximize their return on this project by incorporating condos that aren't really neccessary doesn't count as a good reason to me).

and in the case of the Omni, because they city of Dallas wanted a convention hotel attached to the KBH so badly they just paid for it


Point is, Four Seasons could always approach the city to request subsidies if that's what it will take to get the project in its current form moving. And I'm sure they'd receive them.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 11:26

One more point:

The new Four Seasons in San Francisco also has condos atop it. You'd think condos would sell much easier/faster there, right? Well, last I checked (and it may have changed), less than 10% of the units have sold.

If that's any sign, given how slow/weird the Dallas market is for condos compared to most major cities, this project as proposed will *NEVER* sell enough condos for construction to start.

Now, will Four Seasons sit around and wait forever on this project? Maybe, if again they're not eager/desperate enough to return to the DFW market. But eventually, I imagine they will either put more pressure on this developer to get things moving or seek out other developers who can deliver a product ASAP.
Last edited by Addison on 14 Feb 2023 11:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 11:28

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
It *CAN* happen if the hotel operator is eager/desperate enough to enter/return to a market, although the way they go about it may not be conventional or popular with some folks.

One example would be the Sam Moon Group's project with JW Marriott, and another would be the Omni attached to KBH.

They will find a way to establish a presence a quickly as possible.


They happened, in the case of the JW Marriott, because Sam Moon was able to put the package together and get it financed.


No good reason why the same couldn't happen for the Four Seasons (and no, the developer trying to maximize their return on this project by incorporating condos that aren't really neccessary doesn't count as a good reason to me).


Well. yes, there's no good reason, theoretically, why this developer couldn't get financing and build this hotel, having recruited Four Seasons to operate it. Except, of course, it might be a bit harder to get financing for $750 Million than for $125 Million. And, actually, condo sales are what make these types of projects even possibly feasible in many cases, no doubt including this one.

FWIW, I have never said this is NOT going to happen. But it is clearly not a slam dunk, and is not going as quickly as we were led to believe it would.
Last edited by Tucy on 05 Jun 2023 15:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 11:31

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
They happened, in the case of the JW Marriott, because Sam Moon was able to put the package together and get it financed.


No good reason why the same couldn't happen for the Four Seasons (and no, the developer trying to maximize their return on this project by incorporating condos that aren't really neccessary doesn't count as a good reason to me).


Actually, condo sales are what make these types of projects even possibly feasible in many cases, including this one.


The Sam Moon Group / JW Marriott example proves it's feasible without them, even if unconventional.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 11:43

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
No good reason why the same couldn't happen for the Four Seasons (and no, the developer trying to maximize their return on this project by incorporating condos that aren't really neccessary doesn't count as a good reason to me).


Actually, condo sales are what make these types of projects even possibly feasible in many cases, including this one.


The Sam Moon Group / JW Marriott example proves it's feasible without them, even if unconventional.


Dude, you are in over your head. Just stop. JW Marriott is not equivalent to Four Seasons. Entirely different ballpark. Obviously, there are many hotels that can be and are built without condos. But when it comes to Four Seasons, Ritz-Carlton, Mandarin Oriental and the like, condos can make them feasible where they otherwise are not.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 11:45

And to be clear, I'm also not saying this project *WON'T* happen and Four Seasons *WON'T* return to DFW.

That said, I take issue with the claim that they have minimal impact on whether/when it is completed. For all the reasons stated, that's simply not true.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 11:46

Matt777 wrote:How are they handling presales? I see no floorplans, no info at all. No pretty pictures. No ads.


You can sign up on their website where it says they will "contact you when they get closer to commencing sales". I signed up quite some time ago and have not yet heard anything. It seems odd they are moving this slowly.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 11:51

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Actually, condo sales are what make these types of projects even possibly feasible in many cases, including this one.


The Sam Moon Group / JW Marriott example proves it's feasible without them, even if unconventional.


Dude, you are in over your head. Just stop.


I'm not sure why you're being combative. If anything, we're closer in agreement on this than you seem to acknowledge.

I do, however, take issue with your speaking in broad strokes that aren't entirely accurate about this project. And yes, I will point them out and *NOT* stop.
Last edited by Addison on 14 Feb 2023 11:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 11:53

I45Tex wrote:While the developers haven't been applying for building permits yet, the FAA clearance study cases for points A, B, C, and D now say they haven't been studied despite bearing date stamps from June 24, 2021:

2021-ASW-9292-OE 477'
2021-ASW-9293-OE 478'
2021-ASW-9294-OE 449'
2021-ASW-9295-OE 463'

Have these been updated to a different determined case document that doesn't link back to them anymore?


Hmmmm.... that's interesting/not encouraging. The one permit we thought we had in hand...

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 11:53

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
The Sam Moon Group / JW Marriott example proves it's feasible without them, even if unconventional.


Dude, you are in over your head. Just stop.


I'm not sure why you're being combative. If anything, we're closer in agreement on this than you seem to acknowledge.

I do, however, take issue with your speaking in broad strokes that aren't entirely accurate about this project. And yes, I will point them out and *NOT* stop.


What have I said about this project that is not accurate?

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 11:54

.
Last edited by Addison on 14 Feb 2023 11:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 11:55

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Dude, you are in over your head. Just stop.


I'm not sure why you're being combative. If anything, we're closer in agreement on this than you seem to acknowledge.

I do, however, take issue with your speaking in broad strokes that aren't entirely accurate about this project. And yes, I will point them out and *NOT* stop.


What have I said about this project that is not accurate?


See from above:

Addison wrote:That said, I take issue with the claim that they have minimal impact on whether/when it is completed. For all the reasons stated, that's simply not true.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 12:02

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
I'm not sure why you're being combative. If anything, we're closer in agreement on this than you seem to acknowledge.

I do, however, take issue with your speaking in broad strokes that aren't entirely accurate about this project. And yes, I will point them out and *NOT* stop.


What have I said about this project that is not accurate?


See from above:

Addison wrote:That said, I take issue with the claim that they have minimal impact on whether/when it is completed. For all the reasons stated, that's simply not true.


Whether it's "minimal" or not is pretty subjective. I would call it minimal. The fact is, these projects are driven by the developer and his ability to get financing. They are not driven by the hotel operator. The hotel operator merely signs on to advise on plans and to manage the property in exchange for fees. It's the developer that owns the property, plans the project, schedules the project, contracts with the architects, contracts with the building contractors, applies for the building permits, Zoning, FAA permits, etc, and, most importantly, secures the financing.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 12:13

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
What have I said about this project that is not accurate?


See from above:

Addison wrote:That said, I take issue with the claim that they have minimal impact on whether/when it is completed. For all the reasons stated, that's simply not true.


Whether it's "minimal" or not is pretty subjective.


It's not subjective. The impact of their involvement is objectively significant.

And to reiterate why, the big selling point for the Condos in these project is that you'll have access to Four Seasons amenities. If Four Seasons decides to pull out because it's progressing too slowly, the developer will find it even harder to sell condos, effectively killing the entire project (although that may still happen even if Four Seasons doesn't abandon the project, because again, it's Dallas which has an unusually weird/slow condo market).

Just as well, if Four Season really wants to operate hotel rooms in Dallas again ASAP, they would have no problem finding a developer who can deliver a faster product, or get the subsidies they need from the city in the event they can't find a developer competent enough to secure financing or willing to put their own equity on the line.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 12:37

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
See from above:



Whether it's "minimal" or not is pretty subjective.


It's not subjective. The impact of their involvement is objectively significant.

And to reiterate why, the big selling point for the Condos in these project is that you'll have access to Four Seasons amenities. If Four Seasons decides to pull out because it's progressing too slowly, the developer will find it even harder to sell condos, effectively killing the entire project (although that may still happen even if Four Seasons doesn't abandon the project, because again, it's Dallas which has an unusually weird/slow condo market).

Just as well, if Four Season really wants to operate hotel rooms in Dallas again ASAP, they would have no problem finding a developer who can deliver a faster product, or get the subsidies they need from the city in the event they can't find a developer competent enough to secure financing or willing to put their own equity on the line.


And, it is objectively clear that there are other very high-end (and equivalent) hotel operators that would happily jump in to the project if Four Seasons dropped out. The substitute hotel flag (such as Mandarin Oriental, who is very available), would provide the same marketing boost as does Four Seasons. (And there is really no reason for Four Seasons to drop out; short of the developer proving themselves to be completely incompetent and unreliable, something Four Seasons knew was not the case before they signed on; it costs Four Seasons nothing to stay in the project; in fact they earn some fees for their consulting work along the way.)

This appears to be a very qualified experienced developer of high-end hotel and hotel/condo properties. I can't see any reason to think Four Seasons could find a developer who could do this faster. And, agains, Four Seasons does not build or develop hotels; they would in no case be the ones going to the city seeking subsidies. (I know Dallas has subsidized some pretty crazy stuff, but do we really think even Dallas would subsidize the development of an uber-luxury hotel and condo project?)

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 13:09

Addison wrote:One more point:

The new Four Seasons in San Francisco also has condos atop it. You'd think condos would sell much easier/faster there, right? Well, last I checked (and it may have changed), less than 10% of the units have sold.

If that's any sign, given how slow/weird the Dallas market is for condos compared to most major cities, this project as proposed will *NEVER* sell enough condos for construction to start.


Trying to figure out what Four Seasons Hotel/Condos in San Francisco you are writing about. The newest Four Seasons I can find in SFO opened in 2020 and appears to have no condos atop it.

You appear to be writing about the free-standing Four Seasons Private Residences Tower on Mission Street, which is not atop of, nor adjacent to, a hotel. Indeed, they do appear to not be selling very well. Of course trying to compare condo sales in San Francisco with potential condo sales in Dallas is not a very productive exercise, especially in current times. FWIW, one-bedrooms in the Mission Street Four Seasons start at $2.3 Million -- $2,204 per square foot.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Cbdallas » 14 Feb 2023 13:40

Sometimes I wonder if in the developer offices for all of these projects in Dallas open up this site and laugh and take bets on what is said all the while knowing what is really going on that we the public won't know until they are ready for us to know.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 13:47

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:One more point:

The new Four Seasons in San Francisco also has condos atop it. You'd think condos would sell much easier/faster there, right? Well, last I checked (and it may have changed), less than 10% of the units have sold.

If that's any sign, given how slow/weird the Dallas market is for condos compared to most major cities, this project as proposed will *NEVER* sell enough condos for construction to start.


Trying to figure out what Four Seasons Hotel/Condos in San Francisco you are writing about. The newest Four Seasons I can find in SFO opened in 2020 and appears to have no condos atop it.

You appear to be writing about the free-standing Four Seasons Private Residences Tower on Mission Street, which is not atop of, nor adjacent to, a hotel. Indeed, they do appear to not be selling very well. Of course trying to compare condo sales in San Francisco with potential condo sales in Dallas is not a very productive exercise, especially in current times. FWIW, one-bedrooms in the Mission Street Four Seasons start at $2.3 Million -- $2,204 per square foot.


The comparison is relevant because San Francisco on the whole is a much more lucrative market for condos than Dallas is. If condos are selling poorly there, it doesn't bode well for this (or other) condo projects in Dallas.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 14:03

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Whether it's "minimal" or not is pretty subjective.


It's not subjective. The impact of their involvement is objectively significant.

And to reiterate why, the big selling point for the Condos in these project is that you'll have access to Four Seasons amenities. If Four Seasons decides to pull out because it's progressing too slowly, the developer will find it even harder to sell condos, effectively killing the entire project (although that may still happen even if Four Seasons doesn't abandon the project, because again, it's Dallas which has an unusually weird/slow condo market).

Just as well, if Four Season really wants to operate hotel rooms in Dallas again ASAP, they would have no problem finding a developer who can deliver a faster product, or get the subsidies they need from the city in the event they can't find a developer competent enough to secure financing or willing to put their own equity on the line.


And, it is objectively clear that there are other very high-end (and equivalent) hotel operators that would happily jump in to the project if Four Seasons dropped out.


Very doubtful.

Four Seasons of course was low-hanging fruit because they were losing their existing hotel in this market and DFW has proven to be successful for them in the past.

You keep mentioning Mandarin Oriental, but even they have been mum about their Dallas aspirations since their Turtle Creek project has gone up in flames (the website hasn't been updated at all).

Besides those 2, no other operators of similar caliber has expressed interest in Dallas. St. Regis did pre-Great Recession, but they've been radio silent since then.

This appears to be a very qualified experienced developer of high-end hotel and hotel/condo properties.


The point is, they're not the only developers who can deliver high-end hotel projects. Four Seasons just may not have a problem with how slow this developer is moving right now. That could change.

And, agains, Four Seasons does not build or develop hotels; they would in no case be the ones going to the city seeking subsidies. (I know Dallas has subsidized some pretty crazy stuff, but do we really think even Dallas would subsidize the development of an uber-luxury hotel and condo project?)


How it would work is the developer would go to the city to request the incentives on Four Seasons' behalf.

And while it may seem crazy, beside the Omni example, there are cities that have given subsidies for hotel projects in the past.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby R1070 » 14 Feb 2023 15:30

And meanwhile now DFW doesn't have a Four Seasons. sigh...

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 15:49

R1070 wrote:And meanwhile now DFW doesn't have a Four Seasons. sigh...


And yet, for whatever reason, we'll soon have 3 Ritz-Carltons.

Kind of like how we can have 4 Tiffany & Co. stores but can't have Bvlgari... :lol:

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 16:05

Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
It's not subjective. The impact of their involvement is objectively significant.

And to reiterate why, the big selling point for the Condos in these project is that you'll have access to Four Seasons amenities. If Four Seasons decides to pull out because it's progressing too slowly, the developer will find it even harder to sell condos, effectively killing the entire project (although that may still happen even if Four Seasons doesn't abandon the project, because again, it's Dallas which has an unusually weird/slow condo market).

Just as well, if Four Season really wants to operate hotel rooms in Dallas again ASAP, they would have no problem finding a developer who can deliver a faster product, or get the subsidies they need from the city in the event they can't find a developer competent enough to secure financing or willing to put their own equity on the line.


And, it is objectively clear that there are other very high-end (and equivalent) hotel operators that would happily jump in to the project if Four Seasons dropped out.


Very doubtful.

Four Seasons of course was low-hanging fruit because they were losing their existing hotel in this market and DFW has proven to be successful for them in the past.

You keep mentioning Mandarin Oriental, but even they have been mum about their Dallas aspirations since their Turtle Creek project has gone up in flames (the website hasn't been updated at all).

Besides those 2, no other operators of similar caliber has expressed interest in Dallas. St. Regis did pre-Great Recession, but they've been radio silent since then.

This appears to be a very qualified experienced developer of high-end hotel and hotel/condo properties.


The point is, they're not the only developers who can deliver high-end hotel projects. Four Seasons just may not have a problem with how slow this developer is moving right now. That could change.

And, agains, Four Seasons does not build or develop hotels; they would in no case be the ones going to the city seeking subsidies. (I know Dallas has subsidized some pretty crazy stuff, but do we really think even Dallas would subsidize the development of an uber-luxury hotel and condo project?)


How it would work is the developer would go to the city to request the incentives on Four Seasons' behalf.

And while it may seem crazy, beside the Omni example, there are cities that have given subsidies for hotel projects in the past.


You're kind of making my point by saying that Four Seasons was low-hanging fruit and Mandarin has been mum since their [sic] Turtle Creek project went up in flames. It's the developer that drives these projects, not the hotel operator. (The developer picked the low-hanging fruit.) I very much know that this is not the only developer who could deliver high-end hotel projects such as this, but, by your logic, since we don't see anyone else expressing interest in doing so, they must not exist. ;-) In fact, there are other hotel flags that operate hotel/condo developments such as this; as I keep telling you, they don't drive these projects -- developers do. The first you are likely to know of a hotel's interest in Dallas is when a developer announces a project including the flag.

Yes, of course, we all know that cities often subsidize hotel developments, especially around their convention centers. But I am not aware of city subsidies for an uber-luxury hotel/super-high-end condo complex such as this. Frankly, it would be outrageous.
Last edited by Tucy on 14 Feb 2023 16:19, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: 3001 Turtle Creek: Turtle Creek & Cedar Springs (240 FT | 17 ST)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 16:26

maconahey wrote:
Structure Summary
Structure Type: Building
Structure Name: Building Point A


Structure Details
Latitude (NAD 83): 32° 48' 19.89" N
Longitude (NAD 83): 96° 48' 15.74" W
Datum: NAD 83
City: Dallas
State: TX
Nearest County: Dallas


Proposed
Site Elevation: 433
Structure Height: 528
Total Height (AMSL): 961


https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 02&row=423

Point B - 529' https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 11&row=422

Point C - 500' https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 12&row=424

Point D - 514' https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 13&row=425


I searched all over the FAA/oeaaa site and couldn't find anything else. Perhaps someone else can find something...

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 14 Feb 2023 16:35

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
Tucy wrote:
And, it is objectively clear that there are other very high-end (and equivalent) hotel operators that would happily jump in to the project if Four Seasons dropped out.


Very doubtful.

Four Seasons of course was low-hanging fruit because they were losing their existing hotel in this market and DFW has proven to be successful for them in the past.

You keep mentioning Mandarin Oriental, but even they have been mum about their Dallas aspirations since their Turtle Creek project has gone up in flames (the website hasn't been updated at all).

Besides those 2, no other operators of similar caliber has expressed interest in Dallas. St. Regis did pre-Great Recession, but they've been radio silent since then.

This appears to be a very qualified experienced developer of high-end hotel and hotel/condo properties.


The point is, they're not the only developers who can deliver high-end hotel projects. Four Seasons just may not have a problem with how slow this developer is moving right now. That could change.

And, agains, Four Seasons does not build or develop hotels; they would in no case be the ones going to the city seeking subsidies. (I know Dallas has subsidized some pretty crazy stuff, but do we really think even Dallas would subsidize the development of an uber-luxury hotel and condo project?)


How it would work is the developer would go to the city to request the incentives on Four Seasons' behalf.

And while it may seem crazy, beside the Omni example, there are cities that have given subsidies for hotel projects in the past.


by your logic, since we don't see anyone else expressing interest in doing so, they must not exist.


To repeat once more, what I said (which I can't make any clearer) is that Four Seasons' involvement in this project will have a significant impact on when/whether it comes to fruition. Also, the fact that they're waiting on this project despite it moving quite slowly means they're in no hurry to return to Dallas, as Four Seasons could approach other developers who are willing to move faster at any time if they no longer want to wait on this project and want back in the Dallas market as quickly as possible.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 14 Feb 2023 16:42

Just wanted to share a quick funny item I just noticed on the developer's website regarding this project. They claim it will include the "only Four Seasons in Texas". Even in developer-speak, that's quite a stretch. (There are Four Seasons hotels in both Austin and Houston.)

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 15 Feb 2023 22:11

This one goes to eleven seasons

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby MC_ScattCat » 17 Feb 2023 13:06

Tucy wrote:Just wanted to share a quick funny item I just noticed on the developer's website regarding this project. They claim it will include the "only Four Seasons in Texas". Even in developer-speak, that's quite a stretch. (There are Four Seasons hotels in both Austin and Houston.)


I recently saw a movie where the guy (who was from west Texas) said, "Dallas ain't Texas."

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rono3849 » 17 Feb 2023 19:09

MC_ScattCat wrote:I recently saw a movie where the guy (who was from west Texas) said, "Dallas ain't Texas."


That's always been true, but now Austin, Houston, & San Antonio are all in the same box with Dallas. Hell, you can throw Ft. Worth in there too. All of Texas' urban cities have forsaken the Texasesque qualities of the state legacy. Austin has been Californicated, Houston is just LA without palm trees & mountains, San Antonio is a massive suburban sprawl, and Ft. Worth has become a mini-Austin in waiting. Dallas is, of course, Dallas.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 12 Apr 2023 12:05

Well, this can't be good... It's been almost ten months since the last Steve Brown article about this project...

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rono3849 » 12 Apr 2023 12:38

Tucy wrote:Well, this can't be good... It's been almost ten months since the last Steve Brown article about this project...


Yep, radio silence usually says there's problems. Financing is probably at the top of the list. This plot of land has been doomed for decades. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that it's been canceled.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Dallas_Uptown » 12 Apr 2023 15:21

Funny, about eight months ago, I saw a parade of "suits" walking from Perot HQ, across Cedar Springs, to the site. I guess that hike in the heat was for nada.

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tamtagon
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby tamtagon » 12 Apr 2023 18:44

A different brand might be better anyway

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R1070
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby R1070 » 12 Apr 2023 20:32

Now Dallas/DFW is without a Four Seasons... I can't imagine that can last very long.

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 13 Apr 2023 06:55

R1070 wrote:Now Dallas/DFW is without a Four Seasons... I can't imagine that can last very long.


I mean, Dallas has been without a Saks for 10 years amd counting (the only major metro area without one), so...
Last edited by Addison on 13 Apr 2023 08:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 13 Apr 2023 08:06

Addison wrote:
R1070 wrote:Now Dallas/DFW is without a Four Seasons... I can't imagine that can last very long.


I mean, Dallas has been without a Saks for 10 years amd counting (the only metro area without one), so...


The only metro without a Saks? I don’t think so. I suspect that’s not what you meant to type. (There are about 42 Saks stores and 384 metro areas.)

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 13 Apr 2023 08:07

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:
R1070 wrote:Now Dallas/DFW is without a Four Seasons... I can't imagine that can last very long.


I mean, Dallas has been without a Saks for 10 years amd counting (the only metro area without one), so...


The only metro without a Saks?


I meant to say only *MAJOR* metro area (Top 15).

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rono3849 » 13 Apr 2023 12:52

Saks had two stores in Dallas and they failed. Bloomingdales had a store in Dallas and it failed.

If both had been at NorthPark, I'd bet they'd still be open. Saks shouldn't have moved into the old Marshall Field's store at The Galleria. They should have stayed put in their original location. Their Willow Bend location was ill advised. Bloomingdales picked Valley View, which was never a good fit.

I suspect Four Seasons will find another hotel spot here soon enough. It's too big of brand and Dallas is a huge hotel market. The Virgin Hotel is already a big hit. JW Marriott is opening Downtown soon.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Cbdallas » 13 Apr 2023 13:46

Is there any reason that we should give up on this? I never expected this to be a quick in and out project. Anytime you do mixed use and high profile high end it takes much longer to see any dirt move. Plan 3 times build once. I still think this is a go just not tomorrow.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rono3849 » 13 Apr 2023 23:44

Cbdallas wrote:Is there any reason that we should give up on this? I never expected this to be a quick in and out project. Anytime you do mixed use and high profile high end it takes much longer to see any dirt move. Plan 3 times build once. I still think this is a go just not tomorrow.


Maybe the next growth cycle, but not within the next 5 years unless they get some financing from an unorthodox source.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 12 May 2023 07:33

Unless I misunderstand the FAA filing, a notice of actual construction has been filed within the last 30 days on the property 3015 Cedar Springs, which is the same property as 3001 TC?

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 12 May 2023 07:44

At any rate the height determination of the 3015 site allows 477' above grade, which will definitely be visible from a distance if they use it.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 12 May 2023 08:46

I45Tex wrote:Unless I misunderstand the FAA filing, a notice of actual construction has been filed within the last 30 days on the property 3015 Cedar Springs, which is the same property as 3001 TC?


Link?

I did discover that their previous proposed case has been "determined" (within the last 30 days). The developer had proposed a height of 528 feet. FAA determined that 477 feet is allowed.

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 3102&row=7

I can't find anything about a notice of actual construction. (Nor can I find any evidence of building permits having been applied for.)

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 12 May 2023 21:36

The case was determined back in 2021 even though the PDF document attached is issued 4/25/2023. The non-PDF hotlink also says Extension Request Date: 02/01/2023
but there's no indication that the 4/25 update had to do with granting that extension of the prior FAA project determination issuance, an extension which was most likely granted back in February or March.

Under the initial section headed Construction Info, I interpreted, rightly or wrongly, the update to concern the part that says CONSTR. I suppose you could see whether every building has that entry filled out even before dates are revised; or whether it indicates a filing at all.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 13 May 2023 10:00

Yeah, I think pretty much all Determination Letters have that “Construction” line. I think it just means they are required to give notice of construction. (And the Determination Letter says they have to give notice not less than 10 days prior to starting construction.)

Putting all the pieces together, and assuming you are correct that it was determined in 2021, it looks like they filled a request for extension in February and this new determination letter is a result of that. Determinations are generally good for 18 months, so they were probably getting up against that date.

If this was a notice of construction, there would be dates included under the notice of construction section of the non-pdf link.

Good news, I guess, that, at least as of February, there was still enough life in this project to make it worthwhile to file this extension request.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 13 May 2023 10:54

That seems about right. Apologies if I misunderstood the form.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 16 May 2023 05:57

Hope that the timing will end up right for the development to finally make the most of its 145m allowance

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rono3849 » 16 May 2023 20:52

The spot for the proposed Four Seasons Hotel & Residences has been empty for years ever since Gulf Insurance closed their offices and their building was raised. It must be 20+ years since anything occupied that plot of land. It looks like it will be a while longer for the Four Seasons to be built, if it will be at all. This prime location has had problems for years.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby DFW » 17 May 2023 13:58

rono3849 wrote:The spot for the proposed Four Seasons Hotel & Residences has been empty for years ever since Gulf Insurance closed their offices and their building was raised. It must be 20+ years since anything occupied that plot of land. It looks like it will be a while longer for the Four Seasons to be built, if it will be at all. This prime location has had problems for years.


Yes, even Trump looked at that site at one time when rumors were circulating for a Dallas Trump tower hotel. How sad and a very prime lot indeed.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby tamtagon » 17 May 2023 14:19

I'd rather it sit empty than get an inappropriate development.