Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 17 May 2023 15:11

DFW wrote:
rono3849 wrote:The spot for the proposed Four Seasons Hotel & Residences has been empty for years ever since Gulf Insurance closed their offices and their building was raised. It must be 20+ years since anything occupied that plot of land. It looks like it will be a while longer for the Four Seasons to be built, if it will be at all. This prime location has had problems for years.


Yes, even Trump looked at that site at one time when rumors were circulating for a Dallas Trump tower hotel. How sad and a very prime lot indeed.


It seems it might not be as prime as we imagine it to be.

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rono3849
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rono3849 » 17 May 2023 16:38

Tucy wrote:
DFW wrote:
rono3849 wrote:The spot for the proposed Four Seasons Hotel & Residences has been empty for years ever since Gulf Insurance closed their offices and their building was raised. It must be 20+ years since anything occupied that plot of land. It looks like it will be a while longer for the Four Seasons to be built, if it will be at all. This prime location has had problems for years.


Yes, even Trump looked at that site at one time when rumors were circulating for a Dallas Trump tower hotel. How sad and a very prime lot indeed.


It seems it might not be as prime as we imagine it to be.


It's not a prime spot. Uptown has grown towards the location, but I doubt that any new construction will happen there anytime soon. The dispute with the FAA over height restrictions will put a damper on the development too.

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 17 May 2023 17:35

Just a point of clarity.

Saying that a property is "prime" (which can mean a number of different things depending on the context) doesn't mean any ol' project would be successful on said prime property, nor that said prime property is immune from the effects of broader economic headwinds.

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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 05 Jun 2023 15:39

This project seems kinda odd. When they first announced they made it sound like they were going to move like lightning on getting started (even allowing for developer puffery). I registered on the Four Seasons Turtle Creek website to get information about the condos. The site says that if you register " we’ll contact you when we get closer to commencing sales ". They have never contacted me. So they presumably have not even commenced sales? If they don't commence sales, how will they ever get financing? What would stop them from commencing sales, nearly two years later...?

Had it not previously been listed on the Four Seasons Hotel website in their "new openings" section? I thought it had. If so, it seems to have disappeared.

All this combined with the lack of a puff piece in the DMN for nearly a year, it seems they still have not even applied for building permits. . . This is looking like it might be on life support, at best.

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R1070
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby R1070 » 05 Jun 2023 20:14

They did mow the grass this weekend. So that's at least something positive. lol

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DFW
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby DFW » 24 Jul 2023 07:05

There is a story in the DMN today that designs have been complete for this Four Seasons Hotel and tower. Couldn’t post the link, can someone follow up on this story.
Thanks in advance.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby lakewoodhobo » 24 Jul 2023 08:08

DFW wrote:There is a story in the DMN today that designs have been complete for this Four Seasons Hotel and tower. Couldn’t post the link, can someone follow up on this story.
Thanks in advance.


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ons-hotel/

Image
Designs complete for Dallas’ new $750 million Four Seasons hotel
The developers of a $750 million Four Seasons hotel and condominium tower on Dallas’ Turtle Creek have finished their plans for the luxury project and are working on financing.

Boston-based Carpenter & Co. and Dallas’ Perot family last summer got city approvals for the high-rise development. Since then, the team has been working with architect Pelli Clarke Pelli to design the tower while hunting for construction funding.

“We will have three restaurants and six or seven bars in the project,” Carpenter said. He’s signed the first dining venue: Zuma, an award-winning contemporary Japanese cuisine restaurant that opened its first location in London in 2002. Zuma now has almost two dozen locations in Europe, the United States, Asia and the Middle East.

Carpenter said there’s strong demand for another luxury hotel in Dallas.
“Dallas is just on fire,” he said. “Everybody loves Dallas.”


Restaurants overlooking a circular motorcourt / valet stand? Groundbreaking.

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R1070
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby R1070 » 24 Jul 2023 08:37

That is a gorgeous motorcourt though! Get this thing built already!

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tnexster » 24 Jul 2023 09:04

DFW wrote:There is a story in the DMN today that designs have been complete for this Four Seasons Hotel and tower. Couldn’t post the link, can someone follow up on this story.
Thanks in advance.


Maybe they will have better luck with the condo sales. Ritz seemed to do okay.

Image

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 24 Jul 2023 09:41

lakewoodhobo wrote:
DFW wrote:There is a story in the DMN today that designs have been complete for this Four Seasons Hotel and tower. Couldn’t post the link, can someone follow up on this story.
Thanks in advance.


https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... ons-hotel/

Image
Designs complete for Dallas’ new $750 million Four Seasons hotel
The developers of a $750 million Four Seasons hotel and condominium tower on Dallas’ Turtle Creek have finished their plans for the luxury project and are working on financing.

Boston-based Carpenter & Co. and Dallas’ Perot family last summer got city approvals for the high-rise development. Since then, the team has been working with architect Pelli Clarke Pelli to design the tower while hunting for construction funding.

“We will have three restaurants and six or seven bars in the project,” Carpenter said. He’s signed the first dining venue: Zuma, an award-winning contemporary Japanese cuisine restaurant that opened its first location in London in 2002. Zuma now has almost two dozen locations in Europe, the United States, Asia and the Middle East.

Carpenter said there’s strong demand for another luxury hotel in Dallas.
“Dallas is just on fire,” he said. “Everybody loves Dallas.”


Restaurants overlooking a circular motorcourt / valet stand? Groundbreaking.


The design is nice, and it's good to know this isn't officially dead, but otherwise that's not much of an update...

"Working on financing" or "start as soon as possible" is about the same as shaking a Magic 8 Ball...

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rickbansal
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rickbansal » 24 Jul 2023 10:45

I have little hope if Perot is involved in this.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Dallas_Uptown » 24 Jul 2023 11:43

Is anyone else surprised at the height? I live nearby and this is squarely in Love Field's flightpath.

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CTroyMathis
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby CTroyMathis » 24 Jul 2023 14:24

That hoped-for height does seem to be quite an eyebrow-raiser. Not sure about that one.

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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 24 Jul 2023 14:51

Dallas_Uptown wrote:Is anyone else surprised at the height? I live nearby and this is squarely in Love Field's flightpath.


They asked the FAA for 528'. The FAA Determination allows them to go to 477'. So I don't know why there would be surprise at the height of 464'.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Dallas_Uptown » 24 Jul 2023 15:04

Tucy wrote:
Dallas_Uptown wrote:Is anyone else surprised at the height? I live nearby and this is squarely in Love Field's flightpath.


They asked the FAA for 528'. The FAA Determination allows them to go to 477'. So I don't know why there would be surprise at the height of 464'.


I remember the "Skyhouse" developers eyeing a parcel off Cedar Springs near Welborn. They proposed 24 floors and were shot down by the FAA because of height concerns. (They eventually installed one of their cookie-cutter towers near Victory Park.)

Go figure.

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CTroyMathis
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby CTroyMathis » 24 Jul 2023 15:17

Almost forgot about the "Oak Lawn SkyHouse", haha. But, yes, to clarify, I should say for the Four Seasons that I'm just not sure what height they will actually try to build in the end. Nevertheless, they got their news piece injected back into the wild finally.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 24 Jul 2023 17:59

Dallas_Uptown wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Dallas_Uptown wrote:Is anyone else surprised at the height? I live nearby and this is squarely in Love Field's flightpath.


They asked the FAA for 528'. The FAA Determination allows them to go to 477'. So I don't know why there would be surprise at the height of 464'.


I remember the "Skyhouse" developers eyeing a parcel off Cedar Springs near Welborn. They proposed 24 floors and were shot down by the FAA because of height concerns. (They eventually installed one of their cookie-cutter towers near Victory Park.)

Go figure.


And guess which darling suburb ended up with that high rise (Hint: Rhymes with Crisco)... :roll:

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby mhainli » 24 Jul 2023 19:36

Tucy wrote:
Dallas_Uptown wrote:Is anyone else surprised at the height? I live nearby and this is squarely in Love Field's flightpath.


They asked the FAA for 528'. The FAA Determination allows them to go to 477'. So I don't know why there would be surprise at the height of 464'.


My surprise at the height is more about the OLC not insisting that 100’ be lopped off the top, then gloating about it..

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby R1070 » 24 Jul 2023 21:22

mhainli wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Dallas_Uptown wrote:Is anyone else surprised at the height? I live nearby and this is squarely in Love Field's flightpath.


They asked the FAA for 528'. The FAA Determination allows them to go to 477'. So I don't know why there would be surprise at the height of 464'.


My surprise at the height is more about the OLC not insisting that 100’ be lopped off the top, then gloating about it..


lol... :lol:

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 24 Jul 2023 21:34

This looks like it's settled and we have it in print that this is the completed design. My impression is that it will age better than the other recent skyscrapers in this or most other American cities. It doesn't look like it's trying to establish a fad but it doesn't look (aside from the ADA-defying swooshes at the bottom) like it's following one either.

Tnexster wrote:
DFW wrote:There is a story in the DMN today that designs have been complete for this Four Seasons Hotel and tower. Couldn’t post the link, can someone follow up on this story.
Thanks in advance.


Maybe they will have better luck with the condo sales. Ritz seemed to do okay.

Image

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby turtlecreek » 25 Jul 2023 07:32

Looks great. Height is about perfect for the lot, this will serve as a great centerpiece of the Turtle Creek skyline. Hopefully they can get financing worked out and get this built.

The main thing I would like to see is a rendering of what the condo entrance along Cedar Springs.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby citygeek » 25 Jul 2023 09:21

I like this one. Hope springs eternal.
"To love ..(a).. city and to have a part in its advancement and improvement is the highest priority and duty of a citizen."
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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 25 Jul 2023 12:54

A little bit of additional info. After having registered on the condo website a very long time ago, they finally sent out their first email regarding marketing the condos. It said they've been hard at work on the final design, linked to yesterday's press release and thanked me for my patience "as we get ready for our sales launch and groundbreaking."

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Cbdallas » 25 Jul 2023 14:42

I really like this. I think it will be a great bridge between Oak Lawn and Uptown and I like the idea of some restaurants being in there.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby potatocoins » 25 Jul 2023 16:03

Three restaurants and six or seven bars is much better than I was expecting. I'm guessing they are using the terms a little loosely, and some of these maybe pretty small 'restaurants' that mostly just exist for a quick bite for hotel guests.

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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 25 Jul 2023 16:11

potatocoins wrote:Three restaurants and six or seven bars is much better than I was expecting. I'm guessing they are using the terms a little loosely, and some of these maybe pretty small 'restaurants' that mostly just exist for a quick bite for hotel guests.


Agreed. I also thought it was a little odd that the article says they have completed their plans, but they don't yet know how many bars they are going to have. ("six or seven"). And that number of bars seems high for a project this size, even assuming he is including each restaurant's bar in that count.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby OrangeMike » 02 Aug 2023 08:03

An update from Steve Brown this morning:

Dallas’ new Four Seasons Hotel could start construction in January
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... n-january/

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby R1070 » 02 Aug 2023 10:03

"Could start" means pushed out to 2026. lol

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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 02 Aug 2023 10:35

Steve’s article is based on the Four Seasons’ recent TDLR filing. I suspect what we’re seeing is a little publicity effort as they get ready to start marketing the condos.

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 02 Aug 2023 12:39

R1070 wrote:"Could start" means pushed out to 2026. lol


My thoughts exactly, lol...

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Tucy
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Tucy » 31 Aug 2023 10:48

June 21,2021: “As soon as we get all the approvals, we’ll break ground,” said Richard Friedman, CEO of Carpenter & Co. “Our goal is to build the finest hotel in America and what Dallas deserves. “It’s a very significant deal for all of us and a game-changer for the city. We are full speed ahead.”

Meanwhile (26 months later), they apparently still have not started marketing the condos, or applied for building permits . . .

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Cbdallas » 01 Sep 2023 06:55

I think several projects are being slowed down due to the coming recession.

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 01 Sep 2023 12:02

Cbdallas wrote:I think several projects are being slowed down due to the coming recession.


Is it really fair to call it a slow down if these projects weren't actually moving forward in the first place? :|

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 09 Sep 2023 08:31

Just a comp or point of comparison from the core of Atlanta, where spec office is no longer moving forward but experiential/hospitality is


https://www.bisnow.com/atlanta/news/off ... now-120534

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 24 Oct 2023 10:12

Sorry to bump this thread unnecessarily but as to the Atlanta market overall and Atlanta Midtown submarket both as points of comparison,

... Olympia Heights of New York's three tower Opus site (tower number 2 launched residential presales at 730' and 70 floors in 2017) has now been foreclosed upon by Benmark.

https://atlanta.urbanize.city/post/no2- ... -financing

https://www.bisnow.com/atlanta/news/mix ... ure-121235

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 24 Oct 2023 16:23

And relatedly:

'We’ve Got To Find Something Else': Office Developers Forced To Reckon With Their Futures
AtlantaOffice
October 23, 2023 Jarred Schenke, Atlanta

The 12-story, glass-encased 14th + Spring building was prolific office developer Greenstone Properties' most ambitious project yet when it started construction in 2019.

But nearly a year after the speculative 324K SF project was delivered, the Midtown Atlanta building still sits vacant. With the sorry state of the office market, it might be the last office building Greenstone founder De Little ever builds, he told Bisnow in a recent interview.

CONTINUE READING THIS STORY WITH A FREE ACCOUNT.
https://www.bisnow.com/atlanta/news/off ... -do-121277

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 11 Nov 2023 19:04

Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:Dallas is probably on the same "nice to have at some point in the future, but in no hurry" list with Mandarin Oriental as it is with Four Seasons because of the economy, and the state of downtown's office market being in flux (hotels such as Four Seasons and Mandarin Oriental are heavily reliant on executive business travel).

Best believe, if they were really eager/desperate to establish a presence, they'd find a competent developer and push them to complete the project expeditiously.


Hence my repeated point. At the end of the day, no matter how badly a luxury flag thinks they want in to the market, it's not gonna happen if the developer can't get financing. Full Stop. And unless a developer is willing to put up a great big giant chunk of equity, financing is not happening without significant pre-sales of condos.


https://www.thenextmiami.com/new-detail ... -flagship/
New Details On Mandarin Oriental Brickell Key Development: ‘Flagship’
November 7, 2023

[Brickell Key's] development is destined to become the Mandarin Oriental’s North American flagship hotel, Swire Properties said

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Addison
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby Addison » 13 Nov 2023 10:16

I45Tex wrote:
Tucy wrote:
Addison wrote:Dallas is probably on the same "nice to have at some point in the future, but in no hurry" list with Mandarin Oriental as it is with Four Seasons because of the economy, and the state of downtown's office market being in flux (hotels such as Four Seasons and Mandarin Oriental are heavily reliant on executive business travel).

Best believe, if they were really eager/desperate to establish a presence, they'd find a competent developer and push them to complete the project expeditiously.


Hence my repeated point. At the end of the day, no matter how badly a luxury flag thinks they want in to the market, it's not gonna happen if the developer can't get financing. Full Stop. And unless a developer is willing to put up a great big giant chunk of equity, financing is not happening without significant pre-sales of condos.


https://www.thenextmiami.com/new-detail ... -flagship/
New Details On Mandarin Oriental Brickell Key Development: ‘Flagship’
November 7, 2023

[Brickell Key's] development is destined to become the Mandarin Oriental’s North American flagship hotel, Swire Properties said


What does this have to do with Dallas?

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I45Tex
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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby I45Tex » 13 Nov 2023 20:44

The best way to build a land use and get the project built is not to build a small project -- and risk less money upfront, but at the cost of forever accepting a lower profit ceiling, if you will -- but to build multiple things that can provide additive complements for each other.

Turtle Creek is North Texas' hub for both executive business travel and luxury leisure travel, as well as for condominiums, but none of those three is growing like gangbusters right now (though by no means in recession either). A fourth, fifth, or sixth market niche would be good to get this thing firing on all cylinders.

If the Four Seasons Dallas' developer identified more specific draws to add to this project, like those Equinox Gyms that've been mentioned or its equivalent, and a universal studios indoor holodeck multiplex, and a neuralink spa that lets your pet talk to you about its desire to stay here for several more days, etc, then it might make it make perfect sense to financiers.

Miami even now is not a national hub of business travel, but the very intown waterfront location and relative acceptance of money laundering via international condo presales have given this developer enough confidence (in a metropolitan market that for all I know may not even be short on vacancies of the most expensive beachfront inventory, after all) to pitch both a 400- and an 800-foot tower for condominiums with attached hotel construction.

Mandarin or Four Seasons are sure to make do with managing whatever a developer can get built, but the Miami funding suggests to me that a Dallas location of either one could use an on-site magnet of more than just executive business travel.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby dallaz » 19 Jan 2024 15:23

Any updates? Construction is suppose to start this month.

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby CTroyMathis » 06 Mar 2024 10:26

Looks like they went through and re-submitted requests at the FAA. Not necessarily new news about anything other than keeping filings current, just including for posterity:

https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 900&row=58
https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 904&row=41
https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 902&row=38
https://oeaaa.faa.gov/oeaaa/external/se ... 903&row=26

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Re: Turtle Creek: Four Seasons Hotel & Residences (3001 Turtle Creek)

Postby rono3849 » 06 Mar 2024 17:18

dallaz wrote:Any updates? Construction is suppose to start this month.


This one is just floundering away. Typical of Perot.