Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Posted: **06 Nov 2018 13:55**

whit5125 wrote:No this is a loss, because this would have been a transformative shot in the arm for Downtown if Dallas doesn't get anything due to this just being a farce from the get go.

You are confusing Dallas getting relocations with Frisco and Plano.

They are separate cities than Dallas and despite all the hype regionalism has hurt Dallas more than helped it.

They are not one in the same , Dallas is loosing out on this front and if even half of the offices if Frisco or Plano Dallas would look totally different , especially as with Amazon we are talking about the CBD.

Plano / Frisco / Las Colinas getting relocations does not equal Dallas proper getting them.

This is going to be a loss for Downtown as I fear many of these projects we have been hearing about have been waiting on Amazon coming , and if they don't all of these development sites will now just sit as their owners struggle to get anything built due to banks not lending for offices unless there are tenants, leading to a catch 22 and development continuing the struggle.

I hope the market really proves me wrong here, but unless the city gets it's act together I don't see businesses choosing downtown over the cheap burbs without either ...

A. Massive pent up market demand is really there and the development around downtown finally truly spills into it and into the southern end of downtown.

B. Long tortured redevelopment plans and investments in downtown to make it more attractive such as HSR, Trinity River Park, etc. Being realised to make Downtown a bigger destination.

C. A harbinger to lead the transformation ....Amazon or another large corporate relocation.

Did you buy a power ball ticket and expect to win?

Even if Dallas was a favorite, there were hundreds of competing bids and 20 finalists. The odds were never in our favor to land HQ2.

Posted: **06 Nov 2018 13:58**

My vote is still NoVa and Dallas. I just feel like if it was NYC, they would have come out and confirmed it already, but, since they haven't, perhaps NYC is being teased to get more incentives from Dallas. At least that's what I'll keep telling myself until this one is over.

Posted: **06 Nov 2018 13:58**

I wonder how many developers have been holding their cards close just hoping for that golden goose... I mean, surely there are projects that were dependent on Amazon (particularly, the large pie in the sky stuff), but I suspect there were many more (even if smaller) deals waiting in the wings for Amazon to make their move. No way some of these smaller operations could have, or would have wanted to compete with Amazon for talent. Hopefully, with Dallas getting an honorable mention (3rd place ain't bad), we can get some of that action.

Posted: **06 Nov 2018 15:16**

whit5125 wrote:No this is a loss, because this would have been a transformative shot in the arm for Downtown if Dallas doesn't get anything due to this just being a farce from the get go.

Sure, getting HQ2 would help. But let's not forget that cities were promised 50K new jobs.. but how true is that after splitting it up between 2 locations?

How will the jobs be split up 50/50.. doubtful.

That's really a big deal. Would you sell the farm not knowing what the hell you're buying?

That's a BS move by Amazon.

It really changes everything, the move may not be as transformative as previously thought.

Posted: **06 Nov 2018 15:16**

muncien wrote:I wonder how many developers have been holding their cards close just hoping for that golden goose... I mean, surely there are projects that were dependent on Amazon (particularly, the large pie in the sky stuff), but I suspect there were many more (even if smaller) deals waiting in the wings for Amazon to make their move. No way some of these smaller operations could have, or would have wanted to compete with Amazon for talent. Hopefully, with Dallas getting an honorable mention (3rd place ain't bad), we can get some of that action.

I have heard some of that may be true but when Toyota picked DFW it was good enough for many others. It was considered that if Toyota did the research and came to that conclusion it was good enough for everyone else thinking about making that move. Amazon would be a drain on talent for everyone else.

Posted: **07 Nov 2018 20:49**

Has Amazon made an official announcement? There are many media outlets and boosters on other forums downright celebrating that HQ2 is being split between Crystal City, VA and Long Island CIty, NY, but Amazon has been very quiet and doesn't seem to have made an official peep. If it was so sure and locked down, wouldn't they have come out and confirmed it?

Posted: **07 Nov 2018 20:52**

It is interesting that the WSJ keeps including Dallas but other outlets don't seem to include us as a possibility. We will see soon enough it seems.

Posted: **07 Nov 2018 21:08**

Nothing is really known at this point. It could very well be Crystal City and NYC, even though Amazon is keeping quiet, but I'm also not 100% convinced it is those cities as well.

I'm still guessing it will be NoVa and Dallas. I also wouldn't be surprised if it was three cities (NoVa, Dallas, and NYC) considering how big this HQ2 is supposed to be.

Posted: **07 Nov 2018 21:18**

I'm going to be honest. I wanted Amazon to come here and now I don't. It's too much. Downtown hasn't changed much in the last 20 years but places like Plano went from sleepy suburbs to mini cities in their own right. Amazon opening up a few offices here wouldn't be the end of the world but I hope it's not 25 or 50k people. It's too much too soon. We need to expand transit and road capacity.

Posted: **07 Nov 2018 21:53**

hjkll wrote:I'm going to be honest. I wanted Amazon to come here and now I don't. It's too much. Downtown hasn't changed much in the last 20 years but places like Plano went from sleepy suburbs to mini cities in their own right. Amazon opening up a few offices here wouldn't be the end of the world but I hope it's not 25 or 50k people. It's too much too soon. We need to expand transit and road capacity.

An influx of 25K jobs is good problem to have. Traffic can be addressed later on

Posted: **07 Nov 2018 21:58**

Yeah, I'd gladly welcome 25K jobs. It's not like all 25K would start on Day 1, I'd imagine this would be a big office that would eventually house 25K employees. As soon as it is announced, you can definitely bet that you'd see a lot of projects start kicking off in and around Downtown to help absorb all the people, and it would really be a good opportunity for more development to occur in the southern suburbs as well.

Posted: **08 Nov 2018 09:21**

It would be a great problem to have. It would also be a chance to incentivize development around DART stations. In addition to several residential highrises Downtown, you could easily build a couple near each DART station housing ~500-1000 people each. I'm sure Amazon could cover or subsidize DART passes for their employees. Commute time traffic could get worse, but it doesn't have to with some smart planning.

Posted: **08 Nov 2018 17:46**

It's kinda like the Olympics. It makes the government spend a bunch of money on things in short order and some governments do it correctly others just want to make things appear pretty for the cameras. In this case, we are dealing with a job center, not a one-time sporting event. I'd much prefer 25,000 jobs over a one-time spectacle with stadiums we have to come up with a use for the next millennia. The key is would DART, the city, TXDOT, State of Texas government etc truly bend over backward to hook into where ever an Amazon would land or would they just write the so-called check of tax breaks and move on to the next company. Keep in mind Amazon would probably bring donations to a number of charities as well so that's a potential plus.

Amazon was waiting to make an announcement after the election supposedly so does Beto losing disqualify more or does the fact that Dallas voted so blue and Tarrant county voting more blue than usual mean Amazon sees a light at the end of a tunnel for them to feel less like they are choosing a Republican only battleground.

Posted: **08 Nov 2018 21:54**

Site selector: Dallas never had a chance to win HQ2
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... n-hq2.html

Basically just an article re-iterating stuff we have already heard over and over. Some arguments for DFW, and some against, but nothing has been confirmed yet.

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 11:26**

Brettoj wrote:It is interesting that the WSJ keeps including Dallas but other outlets don't seem to include us as a possibility. We will see soon enough it seems.

Of all the news we have heard on Amazon this week, it really goes back to only THREE publications. WSJ, NYT, WP... Being that the TWO who did NOT mention Dallas also happen to be rumored host cities, doesn't surprise me in the least. The NYT and WP feel it is beneath them to even mention Dallas. lol The WSJ is a bit more global minded, and less self absorbed.

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 11:51**

DPatel304 wrote:Site selector: Dallas never had a chance to win HQ2
https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... n-hq2.html

Basically just an article re-iterating stuff we have already heard over and over. Some arguments for DFW, and some against, but nothing has been confirmed yet.

In the article, Stringer suggests that Dallas and the surrounding cities are not big enough and Dallas doesn’t have the urban density that Amazon is looking for. He goes on to list cities that could support HQ2... “New York, DC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco and maybe Atlanta.”

In what world is Atlanta bigger and more dense than Dallas?

Stringer is just another New Yorker that’s clearly biased towards the east coast.

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 12:04**

Dallas *is* bigger than Atlanta, and based on 2016 numbers, slightly more dense.

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 12:19**

Atlanta is probably more cityfied... from the state capitol, Georgia State University, to Georgia Tech and up to Buckhead, Peachtree Street delivers a contiguous city that's pretty impressive. Pretty too.

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 13:29**

Atlanta has some high-profile brands; not just Coke, Chik-fil-A, Delta and CNN, but Mercedes-Benz USA, UPS, Napa, Arby's, Home Depot, Invesco and SunTrust. All told, it's much smaller -- 2017 metropolitan product of 385.5 billion/yr compared to 535.5 billion here in DFW -- but is divided into dozens of counties and only *five* reach a density of even 1000 people per square mile... let that sink in for a minute.

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 13:30**

Reference: https://www.bea.gov/system/files/2018-0 ... 0918_0.pdf

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 14:01**

Don’t get me wrong, Atlanta is a great city and borderline top-10 in terms of GDP and metro population... but DFW is top 5 in both categories. Also, Dallas and it’s major suburbs (Plano, Garland, Richardson... etc) are all statistically more dense in comparison to Atlanta. Had Stringer not used metro size and density as reasons why Atlanta is a contender and Dallas is not, I would have no issues with this article.

Posted: **09 Nov 2018 14:25**

I only disagreed that Stringer was completely biased. The kernel of truth in Atlanta's favor is that at least three areas --

South Downtown & the Gulch, (1.) (2.) (3.)
Tech Square, (4.) (5.)
and Old Fourth Ward / Inman Park / Reynoldstown, (6.) (7.)

-- felt to me like urban destinations with head and shoulders above the appeal of any single spot, however fast-maturing, that exists in Dallas or Collin Counties.
A controversial statement, but hey, all three already enjoy more transit access and more slices of life including university life than anywhere around Downtown/Uptown, Trinity Groves, Katy Trail, SMU, UTD, UTA, TCU, U. of Dallas or the Galleria probably ever will.
Atlanta, for all its sprawl, and even before the BeltLine, has these 100% locations in ways that we don't.

(1) https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/11/6/18 ... ty-council
(2) https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/11/9/18 ... roup-gulch
(3) https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/4/20/17 ... ng-efforts

(4) https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/11/8/18 ... tree-gulch
(5) https://atlanta.curbed.com/2018/8/16/17 ... oda-anthem

(6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krog_Street_Market
(7) https://poncecitymarket.com/our-story/

Posted: **11 Nov 2018 14:32**

If talent trumps all for Amazon HQ2, will Dallas have enough of it?https://www.dallasnews.com/business/amazon/2018/11/11/talent-trumps-amazon-hq2-will-dallas-enough

Posted: **12 Nov 2018 08:38**

It drives me insane that every article talking about the lack of tech talent/higher education in Dallas ignores UT, A&M, and OU grads. I understand they aren't in the metro, but all three schools are huge, high quality, feeders to the Dallas job pool in addition to SMU, TCU, UTD, and UTA. I would love an analysis to compare what they consider the metro area schools for NYC and DC. Obviously both cities have more of a national draw for recent grads than Dallas, but there's 130k students at UT/A&M/OU and I would argue a majority of them would be more than happy to move to Dallas to make six figures working for Amazon.

Posted: **12 Nov 2018 09:19**

CRE_Investor wrote:I would argue a majority of them would be more than happy to move to Dallas to make six figures working for Amazon.

Couldn't the same be said for any metro? People relocate all the time.

Posted: **12 Nov 2018 21:38**

Looks official: New York City + Northern Virginia.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-cho ... 1542075336

Posted: **12 Nov 2018 21:54**

Well, this debate is officially over.

Posted: **12 Nov 2018 22:04**

https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-cho ... 6?mod=e2fb

"The imminent announcement is expected as soon as Tuesday, according to the people. Other cities may also receive major sites, some of the people said."

Seriously?

Posted: **12 Nov 2018 22:39**

"If New York still doesn’t land Amazon, don’t be surprised when Dallas does."

https://nyti.ms/2z1yPgH

New York Times' latest article today. Hmm...

Posted: **12 Nov 2018 23:33**

Amazon Picks New York City, Northern Virginia for Its HQ2 Locations

https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-cho ... 36?mod=mhp

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 01:08**

CRE_Investor wrote:It drives me insane that every article talking about the lack of tech talent/higher education in Dallas ignores UT, A&M, and OU grads. I understand they aren't in the metro, but all three schools are huge, high quality, feeders to the Dallas job pool in addition to SMU, TCU, UTD, and UTA. I would love an analysis to compare what they consider the metro area schools for NYC and DC. Obviously both cities have more of a national draw for recent grads than Dallas, but there's 130k students at UT/A&M/OU and I would argue a majority of them would be more than happy to move to Dallas to make six figures working for Amazon.

Um. NYC includes or is the nearest city and primary feeder for Columbia, Princeton, Yale, and NYU. Not to mention Penn (only an 1:15 train ride away), which sends a huge number to NYC. While DC has fewer schools in its immediate orbit (but still not-too-shabby with Johns Hopkins, Georgetown, and UVA), it is still a premier destination for top grads across the country. Also, you have a huge contingent from the Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore type who go to NYC/DC; Harvard, too, is a big NYC/DC feeder.

Lol about being salty that OU grads might not "count" for Dallas. Yes, I'm sure a bunch of them would indeed love to make six figures working for Amazon. The point is not to just have access to a bunch of bodies. The point is to be the #1 option of people who have all options available to them. You get that by being located in NYC or DC, not Dallas.

Yes, it's a fine enough place, and many people are moving there, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Dallas got some smaller regional office. But it is still mostly just a nice place to raise a family and live a comfortable upper middle class life (not that there's anything wrong with that), not a premier destination that attracts the most ambitious, talented people that a company like Amazon is seeking.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 02:01**

And that's not just some prestige game, either. There are tangible, rational reasons why ambitious young grads (or really ambitious people of any age) prefer to locate in a place like NYC. It offers a deep pool of cutting-edge companies and startups that you can switch to to advance your career or pursue your interests without uprooting your life, and you'll develop a personal network with people from other related companies who can help facilitate those changes. If you're in Dallas, there just aren't those other options, so it's going to be much more difficult to attract the people you want to attract.

There's a reason why the big tech companies stay and even double-down in the Bay Area: that's where the other companies are, and so that's where the talent is. The reason why Amazon's HQ2 "search" was so interesting was because it seemed like they might be looking to take a big risk on a non-prime location, but in the end, they just did what most of the other firms do and open secondary offices some of the other premier cities.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 04:39**

Maybe my expectations are too low, but it hurts less to me to lose to New York than it would most places. Losing to Austin, Atlanta, Denver, etc would have stung... DC was a lock and New York is New York.

I think we come out of this with an Amazon 'retail center of excellence' or something like that

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 08:14**

tanzoak wrote:
CRE_Investor wrote:It drives me insane that every article talking about the lack of tech talent/higher education in Dallas ignores UT, A&M, and OU grads. I understand they aren't in the metro, but all three schools are huge, high quality, feeders to the Dallas job pool in addition to SMU, TCU, UTD, and UTA. I would love an analysis to compare what they consider the metro area schools for NYC and DC. Obviously both cities have more of a national draw for recent grads than Dallas, but there's 130k students at UT/A&M/OU and I would argue a majority of them would be more than happy to move to Dallas to make six figures working for Amazon.

Um. NYC includes or is the nearest city and primary feeder for Columbia, Princeton, Yale, and NYU. Not to mention Penn (only an 1:15 train ride away), which sends a huge number to NYC. While DC has fewer schools in its immediate orbit (but still not-too-shabby with Johns Hopkins, Georgetown, and UVA), it is still a premier destination for top grads across the country. Also, you have a huge contingent from the Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore type who go to NYC/DC; Harvard, too, is a big NYC/DC feeder.

Lol about being salty that OU grads might not "count" for Dallas. Yes, I'm sure a bunch of them would indeed love to make six figures working for Amazon. The point is not to just have access to a bunch of bodies. The point is to be the #1 option of people who have all options available to them. You get that by being located in NYC or DC, not Dallas.

Yes, it's a fine enough place, and many people are moving there, which is why I wouldn't be surprised if Dallas got some smaller regional office. But it is still mostly just a nice place to raise a family and live a comfortable upper middle class life (not that there's anything wrong with that), not a premier destination that attracts the most ambitious, talented people that a company like Amazon is seeking.

You misunderstood my point. I wasn't trying to claim Dallas has as good or better university feeders as other markets, but when all the prognosticators were saying xyz metro has x number of "tech degree grads" it was always a black box as to who was being counted. It matters less for NYC and DC since they are markets with such national reach, but my point was they would paint a misleading picture of Dallas if UT/A&M/OU weren't included.

All of that said, HQ 2 was never coming to Dallas and was always going to be an East Coast operation. It is eye opening that all of the things Dallas likes to tout, cost of living, low taxes, business friendly government, etc., all obviously lost out to quality of workforce and cultural fit (to a lesser degree). Don't get me wrong, all of our selling points are indeed good things, but this goes to show we can't rely only on those and really need to keep of the good work that's started in our public education system.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:11**

Well...it’s official

Amazon Announces HQ2 Winners

https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-ann ... y&mod=e2tw

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:13**

Thank God. Can we just delete this thread and never speak of it again?

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:22**

https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-ne ... adquarters

... Amazon announced that it has selected Nashville for a new Center of Excellence for its Operations business, which is responsible for the company’s customer fulfillment, transportation, supply chain, and other similar activities. The Operations Center of Excellence in Nashville will create more than 5,000 jobs.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:28**

East Coast Bias. LOLOL

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:36**

So glad this nonsense is finally over. I did want them to come here, but if they had their eyes set on DC and NYC, then we had no chance in hell at winning them over.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:51**

I'm amazed at the massive incentives New York threw at them. That is CRAZY money! For a city like NYC, I really don't understand why they throw around cash as much as they do. If i'm not mistaken, they spend far more on incentives to business than Texas does. I highly doubt we were going to touch that number, and I wouldn't be surprised if it played a big role in the decision.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:54**

muncien wrote:I'm amazed at the massive incentives New York threw at them. That is CRAZY money! For a city like NYC, I really don't understand why they throw around cash as much as they do. If i'm not mistaken, they spend far more on incentives to business than Texas does. I highly doubt we were going to touch that number, and I wouldn't be surprised if it played a big role in the decision.

That makes no sense to me at all. I would just think a city like NYC can attract people/business without lifting a finger.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 09:58**

Hopefully once the dust settles we’ll see some new updates regarding the rumored hq2 sites. I’m particularly interested to see what happens with the smart district... Was Hoque putting all of his eggs in one “Amazon” basket, or does this project have a legitimate chance of breaking ground?

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 11:21**

At Mike Rawlings' post-mortem press conference he mentioned that Amazon was most interested in the Reunion site, Cedars/HSR station site and the Smart District site. Doesn't look like Victory Park, Trinity Groves, Oak Farms or Expo Park really had a chance.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 11:28**

Is Alphabet still scouting for another big base of operation? The three sites most interesting to Amazon are three sites that seem of particular interest to the energy industry, pulling Dallas and Houston closer together than ever before - if that train gets on track.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 11:32**

Anyway...the selection of two east coast sites make no sense , and this was just a farce from the beginning to leverage tax incentives.

My thing now is this...we have to look at the development sites and press f kr information , cause hopefully those development sites were not all banking on Amazon.

If they were, then we will have rather large tracts of downtown that are going to site dead for a long time, unless these development firms want to pony up and try and jump start development themselves, which they can.

If the Smart District and reunion can get off the ground (we really need the HSR station to actually happen ) we still can get a dramatic change in that part of downtown. This may have still been able to bring positives to downtown though as it prompted these large tracts of downtown to be consolidated into development sites...it all depends on if the developers actually have the will power to develop something and not just do what so many others do and sit on the land now that their easy payday of Amazon is gone.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 11:41**

tamtagon wrote:Is Alphabet still scouting for another big base of operation? The three sites most interesting to Amazon are three sites that seem of particular interest to the energy industry, pulling Dallas and Houston closer together than ever before - if that train gets on track.

I thought this was the answer to that question.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-cfo ... ge=1&pos=4

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 12:16**

Honestly, I don't think the CBD needs a massive office tenant to move in. What it needs are another twenty midrise residential. I'm not even talking 20-30 stories... If we could get 10-12 story residential (rental and condo) to fill in some of the lots, downtown will make a success story out of itself.
What are the occupancy rates in the CBD anyway? They've always seemed quite high... but I haven't followed much lately. I only wish we could get as much residential developers in the core as we have office developers.
Do that, and corporate America will follow...

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 12:43**

I wanted HQ2 in Dallas so bad at first despite the reek competitive corporate welfare incentives perverting a "free market." Now I happy this didn't happen in Dallas since now the city will have a chance at the next incarnation of building a workplace into a city. Whatever

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 12:58**

muncien wrote:Honestly, I don't think the CBD needs a massive office tenant to move in. What it needs are another twenty midrise residential. I'm not even talking 20-30 stories... If we could get 10-12 story residential (rental and condo) to fill in some of the lots, downtown will make a success story out of itself.
What are the occupancy rates in the CBD anyway? They've always seemed quite high... but I haven't followed much lately. I only wish we could get as much residential developers in the core as we have office developers.
Do that, and corporate America will follow...

Since KDC has that Southwest corner I am imagining that area will develop as a new mixed use zone. As for downtown I still feel much better about a hundred smaller companies coming into the CBD over one massive company.

Posted: **13 Nov 2018 13:03**

muncien wrote:Honestly, I don't think the CBD needs a massive office tenant to move in. What it needs are another twenty midrise residential. I'm not even talking 20-30 stories... If we could get 10-12 story residential (rental and condo) to fill in some of the lots, downtown will make a success story out of itself.
What are the occupancy rates in the CBD anyway? They've always seemed quite high... but I haven't followed much lately. I only wish we could get as much residential developers in the core as we have office developers.
Do that, and corporate America will follow...

It seems like every big, recent project downtown has been residential-focused (or at least residential-first). All the big office development has been in Uptown and the exurbs, with all the big downtown "gets" going to vacant floors in existing towers (previously occupied by companies headed to uptown and exurbs). I think that's why Amazon was such a big deal- it would have singlehandedly tilted the concentration of office workers back toward downtown, and with the sort of salaries/demographics that would skew toward living in the urban core (not to mention a built-in loyalty toward PrimeNow, Fresh, and other on-demand services that make up for downtown's shortage of brick and mortar stores).

I do agree from a traffic/transit capacity perspective, there's value in getting more residents downtown, but the benefit is limited if they're still driving north on 35/DNT/75 to get to their jobs. DART is slightly better as AM trains into downtown are jam packed while AM trains out of downtown have but one or two people on them.

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