Could Dallas land Amazon HQ '2'?

[tamtagon]

Texas Stadium site is looking good except for existing starter space!

[Cbdallas]

Unless Amazon wants to be a city builder/statement maker I think it is time to get real and I think this will go to the DC area just like Google did with their 2nd headquarters. It fills all of their request and puts them on the other coast. I would love for them to land here and it would catipult us to having a real vibrant urban core but my hopes I am afraid will be dashed.

[Tnexster]

I have to believe they have already picked and know exactly what they want. Having said that I am thinking it's not here.

[Matt777]

Look, I know we all want Amazon to happen, but let's not delude ourselves. The presence of a transitable urban environment that will appeal to the people Amazon wants to recruit is absolutely our biggest weakness compared to our major competitors (imo Toronto, Chicago, Philly, and DC).

Agreed. Dallas just lacks in in Urban Fabric. But you never know, who knows what will happen or what Amazon will prioritize. With that said check out this multi billion vision for a Chicago Amazon HQ.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... olumn.html


If that's what we're against. YIKES! Boeing part deux.

They can paint all the pretty pictures they want, but Amazon has stated their budget for this project is $5 billion and they want a tax and business friendly city/state. Chicago is PROPOSING a project at DOUBLE their budget, and with Chicago/IL regulations and taxes and fees, it would likely end up costing TRIPLE or more. Not to mention much higher ongoing operational costs than a place like TX.

[Cord1936]

Amazon has triggered a $5 billion bidding war —
here are the [49] cities that are in competition for its new HQ

by DENNIS GREEN, AOL Business Insider, Sep 14th 2017 5:15PM

Article: https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2017/09/14/amazon-has-triggered-a-dollar5-billion-bidding-war-here-are-the-cities-that-are-in-competition-for-its-new-hq/23209665/

[tanzoak]

here are the [49] cities that are in competition for its new HQ

I think it's more likely they have 2-3 cities they're currently debating between and want to see how much $$ they can wring out of them.

[tamtagon]

I like the picture of Fort Worth shown with the Dallas bid mention.

[muncien]

I like the picture of Fort Worth shown with the Dallas bid mention.

Yeah... I'm a little suspect about how the 'regional' chamber seems to be organizing our proposal. We have several cities/sites who on their own could make strong proposals. I tend to think a regional approach will water down the strengths/weaknesses of each location and simply come across a little boring. Multiple independent proposals would seem to increase our chances and provide more focus on each location. But hey... what do I know?

I'm a little biased, but City of Irving seems quite good at throwing together presentations and pretty pictures for things like this. Hopefully, that strength doesn't get trumped by the standard go to's of Dallas, or other neighboring cities. Some of the stuff I've seen comes right out of the 80's.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

49 cities that could land the Amazon HQ2. Lol that's practically a slide show of every major city in North America.

[muncien]

We only have about a month before all proposals are due. i'm curious how public those proposals will be. It seems Amazon is all about being open in regards to this ordeal. Not so sure the cities feel the same way... haha
I look forward to seeing what's out there.

[tamtagon]

Ya, the frenzy may be good marketing, for sure this is a big deal, but nothing is serious at this point. The initial fascination faded quickly for me since (thanks to the enduring fascination for this forum) I've gone through the pro/con, strength/weakness, community/corporation exercise relentlessly over the years.... sorting through North Texas locations to find the best for what's at hand. I can wait until the competition is whittled down to seven or so.

It only makes sense that Amazon would already have top site preferences. The RFP is intended to produce a couple of wildcards based on exuberance and/or esoteric attributes, as well as weed out predetermined top sites based on lackluster proposal.

Then the bidding gets serious. North Texas is probably one of the predetermined site locations. Lack of locally produced talent might be the biggest hurdle? I hope it's not lackluster to present several good location options within the region during this phase of the competition. That sure seems what's happening out of North Texas. Going through the process with a bunch of pick-me options upfront and preliminary sure does turns sour if the regional 'winner' does not gather a regional strength and cohesion should it go into the finals.

City Building, what does that really mean? More marketing simply based on the size of the eventual final product? or is there actual community improvement involved. I hate to say it, but the promise of new direction with Fair Park - the promise of actual management as an community amenity rather than warehouse space for State Fair - would be a fantastic lure to a corporation looking for the good press of replacing institutional segregation through infrastructure developmental to replace blighted neighborhoods between the Farmers Market and Fair Park with the New Millennial residential-business hybrid.

Stemmons Corridor to Texas Stadium has the best bones, though, hands down. Collin County is too hot.

[Kelley USA]

I don't know how much consideration the old Texas Stadium site would receive from Amazon, but it does have a lot going for it. You have an iconic site, over 400 acres available, DART stop, University of Dallas right across the street, 10 mins to Love Field, 15 mins to DFW, sits at the crossroads of 35, 114, 183 and Loop 12, utilities already in place and a City that has shown they can attract Fortune 500 companies. Now with that being said I think it's an incredible long-shot, however, the City is going to make an aggressive pitch. They are having an Executive Session meeting on Wednesday to discus Amazon HQ2.

[tamtagon]

^It's not hard to visualize Amazon building out Lake Carolyn, not hard at all. The Urban & Convention Center Stations reflect the foundation of Amazon's presence, the People Mover finally finds a purpose, and the University of Dallas Station marks the eventual build out of HQ2.

[KTuser]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered; I saw reference to bids due in a month. Has Amazon indicated a time frame for decision and a desired "move in" date. That would also provide insight as to whether they are considering building a campus or cobbling together adjacent buildings as it appears they did in Seattle.

[dukemeredith]

I may be in the minority, but if Amazon comes to Dallas, it ought to be in or very near Downtown Dallas. Downtown Dallas offers the only 'true' urban environment (and even that, admittedly, is a bit of a stretch - especially compared to other major US cities). Anywhere else in our region would simply be another suburban relocation, in my opinion.

[Matt777]

I may be in the minority, but if Amazon comes to Dallas, it ought to be in or very near Downtown Dallas. Downtown Dallas offers the only 'true' urban environment (and even that, admittedly, is a bit of a stretch - especially compared to other major US cities). Anywhere else in our region would simply be another suburban relocation, in my opinion.

Agreed. I think Amazon would agree too, and I'm hoping that our city leaders are pitching downtown sites verses Frisco or Celina....

[muncien]

^It's not hard to visualize Amazon building out Lake Carolyn, not hard at all. The Urban & Convention Center Stations reflect the foundation of Amazon's presence, the People Mover finally finds a purpose, and the University of Dallas Station marks the eventual build out of HQ2.

I would tend to think Irving's focus would be on the Cowboys Stadium site as well, but then I remembered that Pioneer Natural Resources is vacating 600k sq ft at Williams square in the next two years. When you compile that, with all the 'North Lake' land just across the lake, you get a significant chunk to work with... although still not quite enough. But it certainly makes a good second option for Irving.

I really think a lot of it comes down to what Amazon means by being 'city builders'. Based on their HQ1, I assume they mean to turn something that was established but lacking, into something that is quite relevant. That would tend to favor anything downtown. But if they're also interested in building something from nothing, than the Cowboy's Stadium site would be a great location.

[Haretip]

I'm just going to set this here and then hide behind a substantial blast proof structure.

http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6478

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I'm just going to set this here and then hide behind a substantial blast proof structure.

http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6478

Blasphemous

[Fitch]

Despite other beliefs, transit is actually a major deciding issue and is a strike against most Dallas (and heartland) sites. That, public incentives, and access to a pipeline of workers will be deciders.

Amazon will seek the lowest cost deal with the best access to human capital, weighed against the access to transit, quality of life, and schedule requirements. It will be an urban site with connectivity to hike + bike trails, street car or commuter rail, strong street infrastructure, and (this is key) a large enough regional population of STEM and business workers to hire 4,000-8,000 within 3 years.

In my mind there are a couple of cities that should be competitive:

Boston - probably strongest candidate, but site costs will be a big decider
Houston - checks all boxes, two viable sites with single ownership, public incentives will be a decider
Dallas (not FW) - several strong site options but no one checks all the boxes. I favor the Cedars here.
Atlanta - checks all boxes, no clear site stands out, traffic may prove too much
Denver - access to labor will be a critical factor

Secondary cities would be:
Austin - hampered by infrastructure and size of talent pool
Chicago - state is bankrupt and tech scene reportedly shrinking
NY area - no single site exists, which means it'll have to be a convoluted partnership assemblage, timeline implications and the most expensive dirt in North America will be issues

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Philly. Watch.

[I45Tex]

Harvard owns 110 acres at Beacon Park Yard and AMZN would be just the thing to tie together the T's red and green lines.

But the 30th St. Station District (88ac.) plus adjacent Schuylkill Yards (14ac.) give Philly much better immediate centrality in transportation and urban living, if Philly goes with that site.

[willyk]

The weak airport DQs Austin.

Dallas by comparison has:
•two airline hub airports
•a freight airport
•major intermodals
•I-30, 35, 20 & 45
•HSR on the way
•round trip to Seattle in one day

****************

Then we have this nice quote from the web:

Seven U.S. states currently don't have an income tax: Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming.

New York, Massachusetts, Illinois and Colorado NOT included.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

I still think the Appeal of having a HQ in major city with good multimodal transportation along with Higher Education institutions will lure Amazon outside of Texas. Either to Boston or Philly. I know Boston already has large Amazon presence with their cloud platform business Amazon Web Services. Wouldn't be surprised if they grew there.

[Dettmann1]

I may be in the minority, but if Amazon comes to Dallas, it ought to be in or very near Downtown Dallas. Downtown Dallas offers the only 'true' urban environment (and even that, admittedly, is a bit of a stretch - especially compared to other major US cities). Anywhere else in our region would simply be another suburban relocation, in my opinion.

Completely agree this has to be pitched for Downtown sites. Given the responses coming out of the "Regional" chamber, I'm worried that they don't seem to get the major wants from the proposal. If they are going to pitch suburban sites to Amazon, that's asking to lose, regardless of how aggressive you are with incentives. Amazon is a tech company recruiting young talent who want an urban, multi-modal environment. Trying to pitch sites in Plano, Frisco, McKinney, and even somewhere like Cypress Waters isn't going to win the proposal.

This reminds me a lot of the thinking for a long time in Atlanta where I used to live. The metro was constantly pitching suburban sites in the late 90's and early 2000's and wasn't winning large relos. They suddenly changed their pitch to emphasize the mass transit system and urban environments and suddenly they won both MB and Porsche relos as well as a regional State Farm Campus (Similar to the one in Richardson). At some point, you'd hope the chamber would realize that trying to recruit technology focused companies is going to require pitching urban sites.

In that regard, the city has a ton of sites they can pitch as there is land all around downtown along the trinity and near the Cedars that is ripe for development and checks all the transit boxes. The big question is whether they emphasize that or not.

[muncien]

New York City, Washington DC, and Boston all rank in the top eight highest cost of living in the US, matched only by other western tech cities. It would take some sizable incentives to offset both the development costs and the added labor costs of building in such cities. Paying 50k employees in those cities will be exceedingly expensive. Not saying it can't be done, but if cost is a factor (this is Amazon after all), these cities take a significant hit in that arena.
Dallas is 36th, btw...

[eburress]

Isn't this in large part going to boil down to how large a check Amazon is going to receive from one of these cities/states? Any number of these cities (Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Philly, DC, etc) would work just fine, but if TX pays $100M while PA pays $50M, is there any wonder where Amazon HQ2 would end up?

[Tnexster]

Isn't this in large part going to boil down to how large a check Amazon is going to receive from one of these cities/states? Any number of these cities (Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Philly, DC, etc) would work just fine, but if TX pays $100M while PA pays $50M, is there any wonder where Amazon HQ2 would end up?

No, they aren't going to come here because of a check, they need a location that helps them meet the needs of their business model and has the workforce supply they need. They will not be going to any city that does not have an adequate supply of the workers they need, I don't care how much they pay them. DFW is probably one of the best locations in the US for workforce availability just because of how many are here, how deep the talent pool is and just the numbers that stream into DFW every day. However, there are other locations that also probably meet that criterion like Atlanta or several other locations. I would argue that DFW offers a better strategic global location and ease getting in and out of here compared to other cities. Having said that, if they do come here I don't believe they will have any trouble finding people to work for them. The problem will be for all the other companies that start losing staff to Amazon, that will be our biggest workforce issue.

[whi5125]

I may be in the minority, but if Amazon comes to Dallas, it ought to be in or very near Downtown Dallas. Downtown Dallas offers the only 'true' urban environment (and even that, admittedly, is a bit of a stretch - especially compared to other major US cities). Anywhere else in our region would simply be another suburban relocation, in my opinion.

Completely agree this has to be pitched for Downtown sites. Given the responses coming out of the "Regional" chamber, I'm worried that they don't seem to get the major wants from the proposal. If they are going to pitch suburban sites to Amazon, that's asking to lose, regardless of how aggressive you are with incentives. Amazon is a tech company recruiting young talent who want an urban, multi-modal environment. Trying to pitch sites in Plano, Frisco, McKinney, and even somewhere like Cypress Waters isn't going to win the proposal.

This reminds me a lot of the thinking for a long time in Atlanta where I used to live. The metro was constantly pitching suburban sites in the late 90's and early 2000's and wasn't winning large relos. They suddenly changed their pitch to emphasize the mass transit system and urban environments and suddenly they won both MB and Porsche relos as well as a regional State Farm Campus (Similar to the one in Richardson). At some point, you'd hope the chamber would realize that trying to recruit technology focused companies is going to require pitching urban sites.

In that regard, the city has a ton of sites they can pitch as there is land all around downtown along the trinity and near the Cedars that is ripe for development and checks all the transit boxes. The big question is whether they emphasize that or not.

Oh boy, what is exactly on the Regional proposal? Is Dallas not submitting one of their own? If not, then they are doomed to pitch boring old suburbia and loose yet again. Morons.

By the way, long time lurker, first time poster. Used to work for the NCTCOG in transportation planning before making a career change, happy to have found this site.

[Cord1936]

DFW is probably one of the best locations in the US for workforce availability just because of how many are here, how deep the talent pool is and just the numbers that stream into DFW every day.
...
I would argue that DFW offers a better strategic global location and ease getting in and out of here compared to other cities.

I think you've hit upon two incredibly important positives that Dallas readily presents to Amazon in their HQ2 search.

Dallas is already growing jobs the fastest and has the fastest population growth in the nation ... and is expected to continue leading those two crucial metrics for the next several years. Perfect fuel for Amazon's growth fire!

Your second point is also really excellent!

To the extent that Amazon sees itself becoming a greater powerhouse in the Western Hemisphere Dallas is the hands-down location to fulfill that goal.

Dallas sets in the middle of the nation, basically equi-distant from either coast (via DFW, Love, or by roadway). Chicago and Canadian cities are within a relatively easy reach north via DFW, Love and roadway as well. Mexico and Central America are the flip side of that reach north but instead looking south.

The reach from Dallas to South America (especially the upper half of that continent), while greater in distance and airtime, is still very doable and attractive if Amazon's growth plan is to reach that far south.

In a much bigger economic scheme of things, Dallas has the absolute ideal physical location to grow Amazon's reach north, south, east and west ... and to minimize costs both of travel time and distance as well as human capital with the enormous population and job growth of highly skilled workers already occurring here.

Our mild winters, no hurricanes and/or massive flooding on an annual basis, relatively lower cost of living and conducting business, no state income tax, pro business growth environment, a central core that is booming and becoming more urban every day (not SFO yet but definitely Dallas has moved up the chain), "city maker" opportunities Downtown along the Trinity River with substantial land available for development, along with significant intermodal and mass transit solutions that are extremely attractive.

Does Amazon see itself becoming a powerhouse throughout the Western Hemisphere or primarily Northern America? Either way, major positives seem to point to Dallas.

[Tnexster]

^All very good points

[R1070]

We saw what a HUGE mess the "Regional" option did for the Superbowl here. It would have been a mess without the ice/snow! I hope Dallas comes in strong on this one and dwarfs greedy suburbs who all want a piece of the pie. We've let enough stuff slip to the burbs. Bring it back into the city!

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Well if the city Dallas is waiting for some regional chamber to make their pitch for them then I guess the city of Dallas doesn't want the Amazon HQ2 within their city limits.

Frisco is already making promotional videos.

https://youtu.be/BHztUQIyLAA

With that said, they're getting roasted on gizmodo for being well... Frisco.

https://gizmodo.com/the-8-cities-least- ... 1818581872

[eburress]

That Frisco video is awful. I would be embarrassed to send that to Amazon. Man.

[DAFW]

That frisco video.... they need to delete it... its extremely unprofessional. It would be more suitable if they were trying to attract a little restaurant or something but... for AMAZON? I really cant believe Jeff thought that was a cute idea.

[R1070]

OMG that Frisco video.... WOW. So embarassed for them.

I'm going to sound so Uptown Dallas when I say this, but I didn't see one attractive person in that video. lol

[DPatel304]

Video made me cringe. Is it pretty standard for cities to send out videos to companies like Amazon? I'm just curious to know what an example of a 'good' video or proposal is.

This video just makes the city come off as if they don't have much to offer Amazon, so they are trying to distract/impress in this video. Don't get me wrong, Frisco is a great suburb that has been booming like crazy, it's just not a good fit for Amazon, and they should just realize that and not really try and 'woo' them. I like how they say they have partners like The Cowboys, FC Dallas, Jamba Juice, "and more...". What's the 'and more'? I could be wrong, but seems like they listed all the major ones.

I hope Frisco's attempt to attract Amazon doesn't hinder the chances of other suburbs or cities in the area.

[Matt777]

Wow, what an embarrassing video for our region. The suburbs frankly need to stay out of this, or at least support a plan that puts HQ2 in an urban location near downtown and mass transit. Even if they locate HQ2 in Dallas, Plano and Frisco will see plenty of benefit as some of the workers will choose to live up there and ride the train in to Downtown or drive/work remote.

As if the area around 121/DNT needs any more office workers. Only a fraction of the planned workers have moved in and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get around that area at lunch or from 4pm-6pm. Legacy is a parking lot and it's only the beginning. Carmageddon, thanks to no transit nor road capacity planning.

[Tnexster]

Suburbs are not staying out, DRC is doing the "official" regional bid as they should but the burbs see their neighbors take a run at it then they have to as well. Makes us look uncoordinated but it is what it is.

[tamtagon]

That Frisco video is soooo stiff! but it's there, fulfilling some prerequisite of municipal dedication. It's a little funny but it seems Frisco is drafting off the overwhelming success across the highway in Plano. I know there's a lot to crow about in Frisco, but really, it's not as big a deal as Plano continues to be!

While Plano/Frisco have best-in-class leading momentum for an HQ2 pitch, my impressions continue to be reinforced that Amazon will only consider the suburban master plan if there's not an urban solution, and even then, downtown Plano might have a better chance than Tollway@Tollway simply for the public transportation.

Las Colinas is the urban-suburban hybrid that seems likely cut the grade deep into the selection process, but the lack of regional cultural institutions make the place ugly. So, in North Texas that's narrowing the possibilities to the two downtowns, Fort Worth and Dallas.

[Dettmann1]

Oh boy, what is exactly on the Regional proposal? Is Dallas not submitting one of their own? If not, then they are doomed to pitch boring old suburbia and loose yet again. Morons.

By the way, long time lurker, first time poster. Used to work for the NCTCOG in transportation planning before making a career change, happy to have found this site.

In some ways it would make sense to run it regionally, just to keep the suburbs from trying to do the same dumb stuff Frisco pulled (Although, Frisco would like to think they are a major city in their mind. I remember the 5 Billion Dollar mile chest puffing from last year, what a joke). The only thing I worry is that they throw non-urban sites into the proposal. That's not a winning recipe, especially if they try to claim those sites have transit access from the "future cotton belt" or something similar. Wouldn't suprise me if they tried that.

Coming from Atlanta, I know Atlanta has 3 sites that fit exactly what they are looking for in terms of transit access and area, one of which is pretty close to shovel ready. If DFW wants to play, they are going to have to compete with stuff like that. Proposing a site along the future cotton belt isn't competing, its asking to lose.

[eburress]

...there are other locations that also probably meet that criterion like Atlanta or several other locations.

And that was my point. Amazon already stated that incentives were one of their considerations and since there are several cities which would work, it would seem that unless there are requirements they've not yet stated, it's the incentive packages that will distinguish these otherwise comparable cities.

[The_Overdog]

As someone who gets to see videos like that Frisco one occasionally for work, it is not at all embarrassing for the genre and better than average.

[eburress]

As someone who gets to see videos like that Frisco one occasionally for work, it is not at all embarrassing for the genre and better than average.

It reminded me of the Dunder Mifflin commercial Michael Scott produced.

In all seriousness, maybe it is better than many, but compare it to the Dallas videos we've seen over the last few years. There's a massive difference in production value. Here are a few of the recent ones:

https://youtu.be/xLUjQosNCAU
https://youtu.be/419FVo3p0o4

...and this one narrated by the late great Larry Hagman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uri_Ie9wdqA

[lakewoodhobo]

Interesting that Cienda Partners is making an independent pitch for its Oak Farms site: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... te-huge-hq

Even more interesting, they reveal that Cienda is the mysterious buyer who has been gobbling up parcels near the Dallas Zoo. This explains why they funded the preliminary mockup of the I-35 deck park.

1506024077-amazonsite.jpg

[eburress]

VERY interesting! Here's the conceptual rendering from the article:

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Honestly anything near or the Downtown would be awesome. Trammel crow can build on the Sam club site as well. They have rail service near by too. I wonder if they're even contemplating that.

[eburress]

Honestly anything near or the Downtown would be awesome. Trammel crow can build on the Sam club site as well. They have rail service near by too. I wonder if they're even contemplating that.

That's a great suggestion...I hope somebody is including that in their proposals!

[Matt777]

Honestly anything near or the Downtown would be awesome. Trammel crow can build on the Sam club site as well. They have rail service near by too. I wonder if they're even contemplating that.

They could finish out the tunnel from that site to Cityplace Station. Also, they could existing space in Cityplace tower to get started, and build out those pads around Cityplace tower. Could be a very nice urban village with direct subway station access!

Maybe even eventually redevelop the Target shopping center site....

[Dettmann1]

Interesting that Cienda Partners is making an independent pitch for its Oak Farms site: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... te-huge-hq

Even more interesting, they reveal that Cienda is the mysterious buyer who has been gobbling up parcels near the Dallas Zoo. This explains why they funded the preliminary mockup of the I-35 deck park.

1506024077-amazonsite.jpg

Good for Cienda to try and pitch that site. I honestly think that site has huge potentially for a corporate relo. If they could just get the street car functioning reliably, this site pretty much checks all boxes. The other advantage is traffic in this area is light and its a pretty quick jump to the airport (One of N. Oak Cliffs Advantages).