Arts District: The Spire Mixed Use Project

[Tivo_Kenevil]

...Ok I've never seen this sign before so don't hold your breath...

But I saw this today on the Bus..

The Spire Website shows phase 1 is a mixed use office building with retail. Which I think is old information...

Building Information:
21 Story Office Building
389,977 SF Office
18,604 SF Retail

http://www.spirerealty.com/dallas/#the-spire

Let's see if they're for real this time.

[joshua.dodd]

I've been wondering about this project since it was announced--how many years has it now been? I hope we see some changes from the original renders and plans, if it does come to fruition. I'd like to see much taller buildings. At least 40 plus stories.

[Waldozer]

Would 39 stories not do it for you?

[ArtVandelay]

I'm thinking this will happen during the next boom ala 2040s

[willyk]

The consolidation is impressive but other than that, this is not a very good site. It's the deadest corner of downtown, with no real connectivity to the action in KWP or EMC. It connects to the Arts District, but it's not in it so no cachet for that. I just can't see anyone getting excited about working or living in the one office or residential building that they might be able to finance in the current market.

[DPatel304]

The consolidation is impressive but other than that, this is not a very good site. It's the deadest corner of downtown, with no real connectivity to the action in KWP or EMC. It connects to the Arts District, but it's not in it so no cachet for that. I just can't see anyone getting excited about working or living in the one office or residential building that they might be able to finance in the current market.

True, but Ross Ave seems to be heating up on either side of this development, so perhaps the fact that it's on Ross will be worth something someday. Probably not anytime soon.

[muncien]

This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would work wonders to create a viable neighborhood if done right.
Everything they've proposed so far is more suburban style that pretends to be urban, and will simply be a ghost town if ever built... Which it won't be because the last thing in demand here is high-density office space.
That's my take on it anyway... Time will tell.

[lakewoodhobo]

4997309677_e60e5aedd8_b.jpg

I never understood why Spire sold this parcel to DART in 2011. It was originally going to be the second phase of the Arts Apartments, then part of the Spire development until DART got involved. It makes no sense for DART to have it unless it was traded for the old track at San Jacinto and Hawkins (an abandoned street now) just south of this.

Now that DART has a VP of real estate and TOD development, there should be some real pressure on them to sell that huge parcel.

[Tnexster]

This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would work wonders to create a viable neighborhood if done right.
Everything they've proposed so far is more suburban style that pretends to be urban, and will simply be a ghost town if ever built... Which it won't be because the last thing in demand here is high-density office space.
That's my take on it anyway... Time will tell.

Tend to agree, when looking this proposal over my personal belief is that the plan is totally flipped in the wrong direction. If it were heavy residential, hotel and retail space with the office piece taking a smaller role it might be more workable.

[muncien]

DART has quite a bit of property that they should probably offload. IMO, they should market many of the parking lots they built around the stations with a caveat that any development have a certain density and contain x amount of parking to be available commuters (paid or otherwise). That'll offload overhead, increase tax base, and draw more users with direct access to stations.

On a separate note... That Live Oak off-ramp from I-345 needs to be eliminated; like years ago. Access is already redundant with Good Latimer exit, and with a portion of Live Oak being abandoned for the future Pacific Park, it really has no relevance but takes up tons of useful land.

I know this doesn't sound directly related to Spire, but if that land were made available, it may provide an opportunity to improve connectivity to the South of Spire, which right now is almost completely impossible with the DART line being configured as it is.

[joshua.dodd]

This area needs something and bad. It's so desolate and empty with its parking lot wasteland. It looks, literally, the same as it did back when Robopcop was filmed. If you recall, the gas station scene was filmed in this area off Ross.

[eburress]

I feel like this is the spot in Downtown most needing of a minor league baseball stadium. Plop it down in the least desireable corner, right up against the freeway/rail line, and all the sudden people now have a reason to go there, it increases the value/likelihood of developing the remaining lots, Bryan HS has a lot more development potential, etc... E.g., the tallest of the Hall towers which is caddy corner from this lot, now has a great view of the field.

Please see my extremely rough diagram.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

No...

All Stadiums in Car Dependant cities bring either Large Hulking Garages or even worse a sea of parking lots with them. If u want to draw people to area consistently and not swallow an area with parking then a stadium isn't the best way to do it.

I'd rather have this project as is and let it evolve naturally with what's to come on Ross.

[eburress]

No...

All Stadiums in Car Dependant cities bring either Large Hulking Garages or even worse a sea of parking lots with them. If u want to draw people to area consistently and not swallow an area with parking then a stadium isn't the best way to do it.

I'd rather have this project as is and let it evolve naturally with what's to come on Ross.

As is, this project isn't happening.

Though there are plenty of examples of stadiums sparking inner city development (San Diego and Seattle off the top of my head), the point isn't that it needs to be a stadium but that there needs to be something to draw development to this isolated, undesirable corner of Downtown. Replace the stadium with an outdoor performance venue or whatever other fun stuff folks prefer and my point remains.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

No...

All Stadiums in Car Dependant cities bring either Large Hulking Garages or even worse a sea of parking lots with them. If u want to draw people to area consistently and not swallow an area with parking then a stadium isn't the best way to do it.

I'd rather have this project as is and let it evolve naturally with what's to come on Ross.

As is, this project isn't happening.

Though there are plenty of examples of stadiums sparking inner city development (San Diego and Seattle off the top of my head), the point isn't that it needs to be a stadium but that there needs to be something to draw development to this isolated, undesirable corner of Downtown. Replace the stadium with an outdoor performance venue or whatever other fun stuff folks prefer and my point remains.

Let's hope that the "something" will be more residential than anything else then.

[NdoorTX]

This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would create a viabneighborhood if done right.

I couldn't agree more! This has been my thought for a while.
(same w/ Midtown Dallas) I'm thinking no less than 8 floors & up to whatever. Priced & targeted to buyers/ renters of places like The Beat in the Cedars. With current construction levels- I'm surprised two 18-25 level towers aren't already here. Along w/ green space & community retail. Anyone here have insight on why Spire insists on office? Is that there forte or is it overall lack of experience & knowledge of markets?

[Cbdallas]

Office and retail are shrinking due to technology living space is not. More people are flex working from inside their living space and using the new communal flex office spaces. This area could be a great place to live and work all while being near access to DART rail.

[Tnexster]

Office and retail are shrinking due to technology living space is not. More people are flex working from inside their living space and using the new communal flex office spaces. This area could be a great place to live and work all while being near access to DART rail.

This is the kind of modern development they should be looking at planning and not something so office-centric.

[tamtagon]

Really too bad there's not a cooperative to redo the backside of Plaza of America so both share a promenade between train station and Arts District.

[cowboyeagle05]

This development really needs to put residential first and foremost. If that means it needs to change hands, than so be it. I don't see the demand (regardless of use) for anything more than midrise here. But, I think a primarily mid-rise residential (most likely rental) development with retail at key corners would create a viabneighborhood if done right.

I couldn't agree more! This has been my thought for a while.
(same w/ Midtown Dallas) I'm thinking no less than 8 floors & up to whatever. Priced & targeted to buyers/ renters of places like The Beat in the Cedars. With current construction levels- I'm surprised two 18-25 level towers aren't already here. Along w/ green space & community retail. Anyone here have insight on why Spire insists on office? Is that there forte or is it overall lack of experience & knowledge of markets?

All you have to do is look at Spires track record. They are relatively new and wanted to be the new "Trammel Crow" of development. For them, office with some retail thrown in for retaining office tenants is there MO. This was their first attempt, best I can tell at a massive development and since office space is their business the residential was always just there so they could include the mixed-use/Live,Work,Play on their marketing pamphlets. They def seem to be sitting on things at this point waiting on a magical day for either a sale or relaunching a revisioned project while Hall launches a condo-hotel tower while building new office space in Frisco.

[Jasimm]

Are these the same renderings from when this was first announced years ago ? I feel like they have been updated in building design...


http://www.spirerealty.com/wp-content/t ... s_2015.pdf

[Tivo_Kenevil]

These are new... Better than before. My only complaint is that parking. There's literally a Honda CR-V on the rendering parked next to the door..like right next to it. WTF.... Visitor parking, in front of building.. What is this a retail strip mall?..

why can't these developers just reserve the street curb during business hours?..they own the whole block having complete street parking around their buildings is a viable solution for visitors.... horrible design.

why not put a drive thru and and parking in front of their buildings while you're at it ... I'm wondering if they'll improve the walk-ability in the area..

Anyhow no worries, I have zero faith in them. They literally do nothing every time. Yawn.

[jrd1964]

Dumb question: Would the Spire be considered a viable Amazon2 candidate (urban, near freeways, near transit, near arts) or would the project even be so lucky? Landing a plum like Amazon would certainly get the Spirers out of the can-we-launch-this-project-or-not doldrums they've been in up to now.

[eburress]

I think it's every bit as valid/viable, if not more so, than some of the other potential HQ2 destinations. The Hillwood proposal, for example, was pretty spread out across Victory and into Downtown proper. That's not the case with the Spire site.

On the other hand, the Spire folks don't appear to be very good at marketing and/or executing on development projects, so it's probably all moot.

[cowboyeagle05]

Its the same renderings just with a few more detail shots thrown in. They also updated the website when the Amazon proposals started to make the development proposal look fresher. I am sure they are one of the thousands of proposals DFW submitted to Amazon. Keep in mind this developer is proposing an office complex and uses the mixed-use stuff as bait. Not many developers really want to do mixed-use because it requires so much more to pull off. Commercial office leasing, retail leasing, retail mix, residential leasing contracts to handle all those areas you as a developer don't usually do.

Spire is a minor player trying to become a Trammel Crow kinda player. Spire is not a KDC which can build these types of development in their sleep at this point. They are not a Trammel Crow who can walk into City Hall and get their coffee exactly how they like it when they walk in the door. Spire has aspirations and they don't have the swag that can get them a tenant without having to prove themselves. I still think Spire will end up selling off the land in pieces so some other big developers don't get to steal their thunder.

[lakewoodhobo]

I still think Spire will end up selling off the land in pieces so some other big developers don't get to steal their thunder.

They could start by approaching DART, which they already have a relationship with. If DART would actively market 1401 Pacific for sale, they could potentially build a new HQ here with easy access to Pearl Station. DART could also sell their nearby lot at Ross and Routh to fund construction.

[exelone31]

For those curious, I was able to find one of the original renderings for this project too.

pyramid.jpg

[muncien]

^^^^
HA! Bravo...

[dd_dweller]

Does anyone know an update on this property? The liquor store closed down last weekend. They said they're tearing down the building.

Maybe Spire is finally making a move on its property.

[cowboyeagle05]

I doubt they are doing anything more than letting leases end and clearing the property so if they do ever build anything it will be almost shovel ready. Spire certainly did not peak Amazon's interest as a developer. I can guarantee that even if it is a good site for an Amazon HQ2.

[tamtagon]

Did Spire even throw their hat in the ring? I know I really liked the idea that Spire, Billingsley and Hall could present an Arts District - Deep Ellum proposal to Amazon, but I don't remember specifically that Spire's exceptionally potent real estate was part of initial run for the HQ2.

Whoever ends up developing this acreage, well, I hope they recognize the greatest potential comes from a masterplan bridging of I-345 uniting The CBD and Old East Dallas into one deal. Expand boundaries of the Arts District to the Latino Cultural Center; regardless of what happens with I-345, Good Latimer entering Old East Dallas should become the front yard of the next phase of the Arts District enveloping the Latino Cultural Center which FINALLY secures an endowment for a Latin American Museum and the back yard opens wide and full force into the creativity of Deep Ellum.

[cowboyeagle05]

Yes, they threw their hat in the ring. They launched an updated website using the same renderings we have seen before. They submitted those plans for the larger pile of submissions for North Texas and I think there was an article in the Dallas News mentioning them as being part of the larger stack of proposals.

[willyk]

Spire and Valley View are in a dead heat to win the award for most incompetent developers in a sustained, hot market.

[Brettoj]

Spire and Valley View are in a dead heat to win the award for most incompetent developers in a sustained, hot market.

I totally agree.

[cowboyeagle05]

But they have renderings showing people shopping and living their best life!!!

[Hwulivn]

Yes! Would you please call and talk to the developer, the Arts District and City hall please! This is exactly what needs to happen. That would truly be an international city level move and would do more for downtown than even Klyde Warren park has.

Did Spire even throw their hat in the ring? I know I really liked the idea that Spire, Billingsley and Hall could present an Arts District - Deep Ellum proposal to Amazon, but I don't remember specifically that Spire's exceptionally potent real estate was part of initial run for the HQ2.

Whoever ends up developing this acreage, well, I hope they recognize the greatest potential comes from a masterplan bridging of I-345 uniting The CBD and Old East Dallas into one deal. Expand boundaries of the Arts District to the Latino Cultural Center; regardless of what happens with I-345, Good Latimer entering Old East Dallas should become the front yard of the next phase of the Arts District enveloping the Latino Cultural Center which FINALLY secures an endowment for a Latin American Museum and the back yard opens wide and full force into the creativity of Deep Ellum.

[I45Tex]

But they have renderings showing people shopping and living their best life!!!

No, pretty sure that was Robert Jeffress and Joel Osteen, not Spire and Valley View.



"I asked a painter why the roads are colored black
He said, 'Steve, it's because people leave, and no highway will bring them back'..."
- David Berman, 1998

[I45Tex]

But seriously, I agree w/ Hwulivn. Good concept system, tamtagon. Trying to think of a suggestion to build further on it...

[CTroyMathis]

Laneways. 16 buldings, 8-12 stories, all residential, ground floors are walk-ups with optional/available storefronts on two cross-section interior spines, greenwalls in the indirect sunlight areas, bike-friendly, internally car-free, emergency access wide though, parking minimums reduced offset by modern office loft/sharing fronting the rail line w/parking underground/above/central loading dock for everything with widened Leonard + Federal, trolley/streetcar active barn + museum, railpark on s-curve, circular "square" in middle of residential. People w/ground floor walk-ups have the second floor residence above retail/artist shops/food/pubs/etc.

Ok, that vaguely covers it. Oh, and 5/6/7-a-side pick-up soccer pitches closest to the office building that is close to the station. That'll go ahead and be called Pearl Station Soccer. : ) No big deal or anything. . .

[lakewoodhobo]

But seriously, I agree w/ Hwulivn. Good concept system, tamtagon. Trying to think of a suggestion to build further on it...

The Asian American Cultural Center that Matthews Southwest wants to put in the Cedars might be a better fit for the Arts District, especially if it's walking distance to the Latino Cultural Center.

[jsoto3]

Laneways. 16 buldings, 8-12 stories, all residential, ground floors are walk-ups with optional/available storefronts on two cross-section interior spines, greenwalls in the indirect sunlight areas, bike-friendly, internally car-free, emergency access wide though, parking minimums reduced offset by modern office loft/sharing fronting the rail line w/parking underground/above/central loading dock for everything with widened Leonard + Federal, trolley/streetcar active barn + museum, railpark on s-curve, circular "square" in middle of residential....

I like that vision for this area. It sounds similar to CityCenterDC:
http://citycenterdc.com/
https://www.hines.com/properties/cityce ... washington
http://www.wjeinc.com/CityCenterDC/City ... -16-08.pdf
Images: https://bit.ly/2vuA7Bo

[mwaskow]

Spire and Valley View are in a dead heat to win the award for most incompetent developers in a sustained, hot market.

I totally agree.

Don't forget Thomas Land & Development and their huge whole in the ground called Wade Park.

[cowboyeagle05]

I know right I mean Downtown is Downtown but in Frisco/Plano they are supposedly printing money up there and yet you stumbled and fell into the hole you dug for your own demise.

[I45Tex]

Thanks for that reference jsoto, and really great ideas lakewoodhobo and Troy.
Please be gentle on me for a dumb one... but if I were Spire, I mean, these folks are top 1% and do have a lot of clout within their network even if they've recently been farther from hitting it out of the park or getting base hits with consistency.

I would of course be waiting, if I were them, for a verdict on I-345 demolition because that possibility lets me offer something compelling to negotiate with Texas Central HSR. Approaches to Union Station thru the tangle of Mixmaster/Kay Bailey CC would be well worth the operator's friction if the neighborhood were superhopping down there, but even the riverfront's a long shot until and unless Mike Hoque lands Bezos for his Dallas Smart District (in other words, already a very long shot indeed). The potential momentum around there so far, at this point, just isn't much to work with.

But what if dedicated high-speed trackage sailed right into torn-down-freeway land between Arts District, Deep Ellum, and downtown's East Transit depot; you're in an entirely brand new ballgame (said with all respect to eburress' year-old suggestion on this thread to put a minor league ballpark near there), aren't you, in terms of urban demand pull and design integration push? And since you own the land up to Ross from *there*, you're golden.

On organizational future as opposed to just this project, though, the goal of being Trammel Crow takes working harder. Behind the scenes I'd have started to sell politicians on a PPP (public/private partnership) agreement to completely indoor-link our Pearl/Arts DART with HSR entrances and name it all the Dallas Spire Station, with plans designed for DART's D2 subway between Deep Ellum and Victory/TRE to tie right into this unrivaled pivot point and central place. Even before building D2, guys, it's already going to be on more routes than old Union Station.

Then, from Spire's perspective, you also get the chance to significantly de-risk some trophy station tower investments like SF's honkin' new Transbay Center vertical transit-oriented development has sparked.
First, though, and first in priority, it finally builds the business case to begin a premium office complex as Spire would have intended all along.

[dd_dweller]

Drove by today and they tore down the liquor store along Ross. I know we shouldn't be too optimistic about this project.

[cowboyeagle05]

I saw that and forgot to report it but I assume its just that the lease ran out and having the liquor store building gone just means they get more parking spaces to charge for.

[R1070]

I'm glad to see these buildings get torn down. Hopefully we will see something pop-up in the coming years. lol

[jrd1964]

I would guess that liquor store was the last of the old ones of the past in the CBD. Too bad it isn't because the Spire construction is imminent (yet).

[maconahey]

Looks like they were flattening out the dirt to make way for a parking lot

[whit5125]

Of fucking course they are. Seriously is there a mechanism other than simple eminent domain that the city can just take this land from these Asshats? There isnt even need for a parking lot on this land and they are in one of the hottest markets in the US and cant even get condominiums built....I mean good lord.