Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

This building will be slightly taller than the Christopher at the Union

Tnexster wrote:Nice, where is the updated rendering?

I'm bet is another box.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:This building will be slightly taller than the Christopher at the Union

Yes we have all seen the one rendering they have, I am more curious about seeing the proposed tower from a different angle or was it even the final design. Seems like a lot was missing.

Tnexster wrote:

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:This building will be slightly taller than the Christopher at the Union

Yes we have all seen the one rendering they have, I am more curious about seeing the proposed tower from a different angle or was it even the final design. Seems like a lot was missing.

Yeah, I thought so too, to the point that I wasn't sure if that was the final rendering.

Uber breaks ground this week on new Dallas tower

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... las-tower/

And we still don't have any other rendering? I want to see this thing at street level.

Maybe after? Hope something else gets shown today.

This CBS 11 news video shows new renderings of the building

https://youtu.be/1RSqm8clfC8

^Nice find! Thanks for posting. Maybe somebody will be able to grab those pics and post them. Definitely will be the tallest tower in that trio. Heard the story mention that they intend to hire locally for what they need here in Dallas.

Yeah, it's nice seeing how the height will compare to its neighboring buildings.

Uber announced results yesterday, and it looks like they burned another 1.2b with about 12b left in reserves. Expense growth outpaced revenue growth this past quarter. I am still deeply confused as to why the developer here is so enthusiastic about this, and why they're likely doing a build to suit (a heliport on the roof deck - really?) when there is a good chance that this company might not exist by the time this building is ready.

homeworld1031tx wrote:Uber announced results yesterday, and it looks like they burned another 1.2b with about 12b left in reserves. Expense growth outpaced revenue growth this past quarter. I am still deeply confused as to why the developer here is so enthusiastic about this, and why they're likely doing a build to suit (a heliport on the roof deck - really?) when there is a good chance that this company might not exist by the time this building is ready.

Development is an inherently optimistic industry

Also, it's hard to turn down a household name. Uber may still be in flux when it comes to the business-minded folk but to politicians and the average citizen, the name is so well known its hard for them to picture the company not figuring it out eventually. I am not saying they wouldn't become an MCI Worldcom or Enron etc and be wiped out with the right mistake but deals like this are about publicity for politicians as much as they are about Uber trying to cut costs. Same for the developer by that measure.

Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr
Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr
Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr
Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr
Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr

KDC has some images up on their site as well as a webcam






Webcam
https://app.oxblue.com/open/kdc/EpicII

Meh. Not in love with the new tower. I find that top part awkward and inelegant.

Uber went for the timely “house of cards” style

Lol. Sadly probably prophetic. Enormous cash burn rate.

eburress wrote:Meh. Not in love with the new tower. I find that top part awkward and inelegant.

I think it will turn out better than the renderings

I wonder if this Uber thing is a slow walk out of San Fran area and relocate everything here save cost and blame it all on the flame out.

Cbdallas wrote:I wonder if this Uber thing is a slow walk out of San Fran area and relocate everything here save cost and blame it all on the flame out.

I hope you're right and if so, I hope it goes much better than when Blockbuster did that.

Blockbuster should have become a streaming service ahead of the game. At least Uber is talking and testing flying cars.

Speaking of Uber, someone on reddit has already spotted a self-driving car downtown:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comments/dwckcc/driverless_uber_downtown/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Yeah, the local news station already showed video of the self-driving cars in Downtown the other day.

Too bad that giant concrete dead weight is still choking Downtown.

Yea. Another 200,000 cars a day on those city streets would be SO much better.

Might be time to review the concept of induced demand.

For those playing the home game. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/ ... nd/569455/

KEY POINTS
In urbanism, “induced demand” refers to the idea that increasing roadway capacity encourages more people to drive, thus failing to improve congestion.

Since the concept was introduced in the 1960s, numerous academic studies have demonstrated the existence of ID.

But some economists argue that the effects of ID are overstated, or outweighed by the benefits of greater automobility.

Few federal, state and local departments of transportation are thought to adequately account for ID in their long-term planning.

But don't stop there. Go on to Jevons' paradox. People (policymakers included) tend to assume that we should invest in, or maintain, more efficient infrastructure/technology/regulation because it will let people start to consume less of a valuable resource, and then the increase in efficiencies leads instead to even greater overuse because it can be cashed out for something else valuable.

In the case of a freeway, if far more people can reach a job in a fixed commute duration than before, they will now move even farther out (until the same limit or "Marchetti constant" is rebalanced, but if it doesn't fill up the freeway they *don't* simply use their day more efficiently now; they gradually move still farther).

They get more square footage or fresh air for their bid/spend of time budget in traffic. They also get to take part in a suburb that is crisp and new and appreciating in value and social cachet, rather than one where the bills for that era are coming due and it is being left for greener pastures, as we know we readily do now that none of them is really special or Texan or memorable. Even Texans who are personally committed to their communities seem to think it's more appropriate to say, "It is what it is," than to care about this poor market-design.

The "demand" is not for faster transportation exactly, if you measure the system by what it is inducing and why.

^^ Very well put I45Tex

These are all great arguments for NOT expanding freeways indefinitely, which TxDOT seems to think is the answer to everything. But I do NOT see this as a reason to simply start REMOVING freeways.
Preventing the slow trickle of expansion is very different than immediately disrupting tens of thousands of commuters at once, and permanently. This needs to be done far more thoughtfully than simply saying "I don't drive on it, and they'll find another way, so let's do it".

A more practical application is to cut/cover this thing, cut back on entrances and exits, and reduce some lanes.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Yea. Another 200,000 cars a day on those city streets would be SO much better.

It would be better. 200,000 cars on 8 lanes (now) vs. spread across the 20-30 lanes of surface streets is much better.

Beyond that, there are notions about tunneling the freeway, which while expensive, could ease the minds of the people who can't imagine a world in which we have to say goodbye to one of our precious freeways.

Not wasting any time getting this one started. Wonder what else we might see in this general area soon?

emmasensei wrote:Might be time to review the myth of induced demand.

TFIFY.

Try to explain "induced demand" to an economist and watch them laugh in your face. It's just existing demand that gets satisfied.

If you build a new hospital and people use it do you say the hospital induced people to get sick?

I'm in the let's make it a Tunnel crowd.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:If you build a new hospital and people use it do you say the hospital induced people to get sick?

Not to get sick, but it induced people to go to that new hospital.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Try to explain "induced demand" to an economist and watch them laugh in your face. It's just existing demand that gets satisfied.

You're right, the demand is there and these roads are simply meeting that demand. However, if the roads weren't built, people would adapt (they would live closer or find other ways to get around).

The 'Induced Demand' term has always been a bit misleading. The term makes it sound like people are only driving on the road because there is now a road to drive on. Of course, the reality is far more complicated than that, which is why I like how I45Tex laid it out.
People make life changing decisions, such as where to work and live, based on numerous factors, including commute times. So, while building/expanding roads does indeed increase the likelihood of people to move into an area over time as it becomes more accessible, and therefore increasing traffic on such road, that doesn't mean that you can simply remove the road to make the traffic 'go away'. There is a massive human factor that needs to be taken into account.
Now, stopping such mindless expansion of roads going forward is a noble cause, and should be pursued. But removing roads under the same argument is not the same thing, and in a way... a bit heartless. There are better ways to go about this. And, I certainly don't think dumping hundreds of thousands of cars onto inner city surface streets is a good outcome for ANY party.

I know tunneling can be super expensive and takes forever to accomplish, but what about something similar to the 635 express lanes... They dug down so that the express lanes are buried, and then you build a series of parks on top of that. Perhaps even turn it into paid lanes. Want to take the 345? It'll cost you!

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Too bad that giant concrete dead weight is still choking Downtown.

Lol the picture of this new tower construction literally immediately adjacent to the highway is completely antithetical to your argument of the highway 'choking' downtown. Development is happening in the area regardless of I345s presence, and it's not like this area would have been a boomtown had the highway not existed for the last couple of decades.

How timely, my friends!

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2019/11/txdot-wants-to-hear-from-the-public-about-removing-i-345/

TxDOT Wants To Hear From the Public About Removing I-345

The meetings are happening at locations in Uptown, downtown, and South Dallas. The downtown meeting is an all-day affair, meant to target the working commuters. Info below from the city:

• Monday, December 2, 2019 from 6 pm. to 8 p.m. at the St. Philip’s School and Community Center at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Dallas, Texas 75215. (Served by DART bus route 002.) The presentation will begin at 7 p.m.

• Tuesday, December 3, 2019 from 6 pm. to 8 p.m. at the CityPlace Conference Center Lakewood Room, First Floor, 2711 N. Haskell Avenue, Dallas, Texas 75204. (Served by DART red, blue, and orange rail lines to CityPlace/ Uptown Station and bus routes 036, 409, 521.) The presentation will begin at 7 p.m.

• Thursday, December 5, 2019 from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. at the Sheraton Dallas Hotel Dallas Ballroom, First Floor, 400 N. Olive Street Dallas, Texas 75201. (Served by DART red, blue, green, and orange rail lines to the Pearl Street Station and bus routes 024, 036, 084.) The presentations will begin at noon, 4:30 p.m., and 7 p.m.

homeworld1031tx wrote:

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Too bad that giant concrete dead weight is still choking Downtown.

Lol the picture of this new tower construction literally immediately adjacent to the highway is completely antithetical to your argument of the highway 'choking' downtown. Development is happening in the area regardless of I345s presence, and it's not like this area would have been a boomtown had the highway not existed for the last couple of decades.

That's certainly one way to interpret what I said and the development overall.

homeworld1031tx wrote:

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Too bad that giant concrete dead weight is still choking Downtown.

Lol the picture of this new tower construction literally immediately adjacent to the highway is completely antithetical to your argument of the highway 'choking' downtown. Development is happening in the area regardless of I345s presence, and it's not like this area would have been a boomtown had the highway not existed for the last couple of decades.

And what exactly happened in these offsetting areas the previous 50 years? Your logic is flawed. The freeways and IH system changed the fabric of downtown Dallas and the city in general. It split the city in half, clearly choked out and divided neighborhoods, and quarantined the CBD. Westdale has strategically and incrementally become the largest landowner in Deep Ellum over the last 25 years and is just getting started with the Epic. I would tend to think they are leveraging their knowledge, relationships and ultimately their plans on I-345 being gone eventually.

Razing I-345 is step #1 in correcting a blight that never should have happened. I’d challenge you to find anyone that thinks the freeways and IH system built in the 50/60’s were positive for Dallas.

One of the primary reasons Dallas has grown like it has over the past 150 years is its role as a transportation hub. First it was the railroads, then the highways and now the airports. The DFW area is a immense distribution hub and logistics center. Trade, both domestic and international, is what made Dallas.

You're totally right when you say "The freeways and IH system changed the fabric of downtown Dallas and the city in general." Without those highways Dallas would be a shadow of what it is.

You want to see what happens when the Interstate bypasses the center of town? Go visit Tyler. Population 104,000.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:One of the primary reasons Dallas has grown like it has over the past 150 years is its role as a transportation hub. First it was the railroads, then the highways and now the airports. The DFW area is a immense distribution hub and logistics center. Trade, both domestic and international, is what made Dallas.

You're totally right when you say "The freeways and IH system changed the fabric of downtown Dallas and the city in general." Without those highways Dallas would be a shadow of what it is.

You want to see what happens when the Interstate bypasses the center of town? Go visit Tyler. Population 104,000.

Yeah, that's a terrible comparison. Dallas' population was already almost half a million by the time the freeway interstate system became implemented.

I'm actually on both sides of this argument. I do think that Dallas could have developed into a more dense, urban city had it not been for the highways. However, I think we are now at a point where they highways do provide a benefit to our city. All the major suburban corporate relocations are all right next to major highways and Uber also picked a spot right up against I-345. The Harwood District has also seen a lot of success attracting corporations, and I'd imagine it has to do with their proximity to the DNT.

Not sure what this says about anything but I live in North Oak Cliff. I can drive to Downtown Ft. Worth during Morning rush hour in 35 to 40 mins. It takes my wife almost the same amount of time to get from our place to Thanksgiving Tower most days. As I said before I'm in the buried I-345 crowd. I think it offers the best of both worlds. I'm all for connecting Deep Ellum-CBD-Uptown-Cedars-North OC. Personally, the parking lots in east CBD are more offensive than a highway.

MC_ScattCat wrote:Not sure what this says about anything but I live in North Oak Cliff. I can drive to Downtown Ft. Worth during Morning rush hour in 35 to 40 mins. It takes my wife almost the same amount of time to get from our place to Thanksgiving Tower most days. As I said before I'm in the buried I-345 crowd. I think it offers the best of both worlds. I'm all for connecting Deep Ellum-CBD-Uptown-Cedars-North OC. Personally, the parking lots in east CBD are more offensive than a highway.

Wow, I live all the way down by Joe Pool lake and drive into downtown every day and it only takes 35 minutes on most days. I actually think downtown isn't that bad most days. If they ever fill up all the empty parking lots things might change but at the moment, even with as much as they have done it isn't bad.

Deep Ellum Boom
An entertainment district that once was a hotbed for jazz and blues, the Deep Ellum neighborhood east of downtown Dallas is undergoing a dramatic transformation, courtesy of Westdale Real Estate Investment and Management. The company is adding work to the live-play mix with a massive new mixed-use complex called The Epic. It features two hotels, a 310-unit luxury apartment tower, retail space, and two office towers, one of which will be fully occupied by Uber. Westdale also is partnering with global developer Hines to build a mixed-used project called The Stack. One thing’s for certain: Deep Ellum will never be the same.

In this article it mentions the epic will have two hotels. Is that accurate? I thought it was only one?