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Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

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eburress
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby eburress » 08 Feb 2019 13:35

Mgreen15 wrote:How many people would actually be walking around Deep Ellum in the middle of the afternoon on any weekend from late May to late September?


It's definitely possible. Palm Springs gets hotter than Dallas in the summer, but that doesn't stop folks from shopping around, hanging out on patios, attending art festivals and street markets, and so on. There just needs to be some shade, and misters don't hurt. :)

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emmasensei
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby emmasensei » 08 Feb 2019 14:02

Yeah, and I mentioned Boston's Newbury Street post--the weather there is pretty much terrible for one reason or another every day, except for 3 days in May and 3 days in February. (Maybe I'm exaggerating for comedic effect, but not by much.) Doesn't stop anybody from hitting the Newbury Street shops all day long.

Also. Yes. Shade. Planting trees can be a thing. Get on it, Deep Ellum.

I'm not sure what is meant by different consumer habits. Speaking for my demographic, women in their 20s and 30s want to buy pretty much all the same stuff: clothes, home goods, gifts, self-care services, unique experiences. Although habits are also shaped by what is made available (i.e., mall chains like the Gap vs. quirky, instagrammable boutiques full of plants and Millennial pink midcentury furniture). There's no reason for Dallas to limit itself to Ann Taylor Lofts and Banana Republics, or even the new generation of formerly-niche, now-ubiquitous mall stores (think Lululemon and Warby Parker).
Last edited by emmasensei on 08 Feb 2019 14:14, edited 3 times in total.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 08 Feb 2019 14:10

Mgreen15 wrote:How many people would actually be walking around Deep Ellum in the middle of the afternoon on any weekend from late May to late September?


Hundreds. The number one complaint is the lack of parking, because it's so crowded.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby exelone31 » 18 Feb 2019 15:59

https://dallas.eater.com/2019/2/15/1822 ... restaurant

Following the influx of more outsider nightlife spots to Deep Ellum (think Bottled Blonde from Arizona and forthcoming Punch Bowl Social from Denver), a clubby “Asian fusion” restaurant from Miami has also set its sights on the neighborhood.

Komodo will debut at Deep Ellum’s western border with Downtown in the forthcoming Epic building, according to CultureMap. For those who have somehow missed it, Epic is the flashy new glass-clad high-rise office complex currently under construction at the corner of Good Latimer and Pacific Avenue. From the same guy behind two other Miami clubs, Komodo will reportedly take up a massive 20,000 square-feet of space for the interior lounge-dining room and another 2,500 square-foot for a patio.


This seems troubling.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby hjkll » 18 Feb 2019 16:18

exelone31 wrote:https://dallas.eater.com/2019/2/15/18226405/komodo-deep-ellum-opening-club-restaurant

Following the influx of more outsider nightlife spots to Deep Ellum (think Bottled Blonde from Arizona and forthcoming Punch Bowl Social from Denver), a clubby “Asian fusion” restaurant from Miami has also set its sights on the neighborhood.

Komodo will debut at Deep Ellum’s western border with Downtown in the forthcoming Epic building, according to CultureMap. For those who have somehow missed it, Epic is the flashy new glass-clad high-rise office complex currently under construction at the corner of Good Latimer and Pacific Avenue. From the same guy behind two other Miami clubs, Komodo will reportedly take up a massive 20,000 square-feet of space for the interior lounge-dining room and another 2,500 square-foot for a patio.


This seems troubling.


?

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exelone31
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby exelone31 » 18 Feb 2019 16:44

^ Looking at the article, this place looks awful IMO. I know Deep Ellum has been drifting away from it's old image for some time now, but this will seemingly put it over the top. Perhaps the charm will move over to East Quarter or Exposition Park. Or hop the highway over to The Cedars. There's still plenty to love about Deep Ellum, but....yikes.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Matt777 » 18 Feb 2019 16:51

exelone31 wrote:https://dallas.eater.com/2019/2/15/18226405/komodo-deep-ellum-opening-club-restaurant

Following the influx of more outsider nightlife spots to Deep Ellum (think Bottled Blonde from Arizona and forthcoming Punch Bowl Social from Denver), a clubby “Asian fusion” restaurant from Miami has also set its sights on the neighborhood.

Komodo will debut at Deep Ellum’s western border with Downtown in the forthcoming Epic building, according to CultureMap. For those who have somehow missed it, Epic is the flashy new glass-clad high-rise office complex currently under construction at the corner of Good Latimer and Pacific Avenue. From the same guy behind two other Miami clubs, Komodo will reportedly take up a massive 20,000 square-feet of space for the interior lounge-dining room and another 2,500 square-foot for a patio.


This seems troubling.


Sounds douchetastic. The food offerings at the Miami location don't look like anything that hasn't been tried, and is getting tired (Asian fusion). At least this is on the outskirts of Deep Ellum, there's still plenty to love about DE!

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby DPatel304 » 18 Feb 2019 16:58

exelone31 wrote:^ Looking at the article, this place looks awful IMO. I know Deep Ellum has been drifting away from it's old image for some time now, but this will seemingly put it over the top. Perhaps the charm will move over to East Quarter or Exposition Park. Or hop the highway over to The Cedars. There's still plenty to love about Deep Ellum, but....yikes.


True, but it's a part of "The Epic". I don't think anyone here expected anything involving The Epic to really be fitting with the character of Deep Ellum. This isn't a knock on The Epic, because I love the development, and am extremely happy that it is here, I'm just saying I always viewed it as more of an extension of Downtown, rather than being a part of Deep Ellum.

I would like to think that places like this can find a way to coexist with the existing nightlife in Deep Ellum, rather than 'chase away' current bars and bar patrons to new areas. Deep Ellum is far from being completely built out, so perhaps it can continue to grow and support all types of venues. I guess it could be similar to the way Austin has both West 6th and Dirty 6th not terribly far apart from each other, but also each area is still able to retain its distinct character and personality.
Last edited by DPatel304 on 19 Feb 2019 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 18 Feb 2019 18:03

Sounds like another stirr...
I will take Komodo over what ever was there before . Oh yeah nothing.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby willyk » 18 Feb 2019 22:33

The kids will never go there. “Too Dad.” DE is safe.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby mdg109 » 18 Feb 2019 23:43

Yeah, I agree with Dpatel. It's on the other side of Good Latimer so it does feel separate from DE's EMC.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby eburress » 18 Feb 2019 23:57

mdg109 wrote:Yeah, I agree with Dpatel. It's on the other side of Good Latimer so it does feel separate from DE's EMC.


I also agree. I realize it's on the Deep Ellum side of that awful freeway, but this still feels more like part of Downtown to me.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby maconahey » 21 Feb 2019 12:02

Hotel columns coming out of the ground
Image

Image

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby dd_dweller » 21 Feb 2019 12:11

Any news about phase 2 as mentioned before? Can't wait to see what it'll look like.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby maconahey » 01 Mar 2019 17:56

View from Elm
Image

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Cord1936 » 01 Mar 2019 23:08

ImageThe Epic office and residential towers under construction, Downtown Dallas, 02-26-19

I took this around 4:30pm on 02-26-19, heading west on Elm Street at Good Latimer. The impact this project has on the feel of this end of Deep Ellum is enormous ... it literally makes it feel like Downtown has now reached into Deep Ellum as the residential building in particular towers over the streetscape. The scope and scale of that effect is lost in a photograph but very real in person. Looking good!

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Tnexster » 02 Mar 2019 10:48

If you pull up the KDC webcam you get a fairly good feel, imagine this plus the proposed Hines office tower. One can get a sense that DE will one day be surrounded by a mix of higher density residential and office products.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby kingpin » 12 Mar 2019 23:31

ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr


ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr
ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by Around My City, on Flickr

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Dallas12 » 13 Mar 2019 12:12

Don’t get me wrong, I am a fan of and think this is an awesome development, but I can’t get over how the residential tower design is utterly and completely “meh”.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby itsjrd1964 » 15 Mar 2019 13:58

From a Facebook post I just saw from the Epic, past and future versions of the Knights of Pythias building:

Image

Image

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 18 Mar 2019 09:23

Looks fantastic.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 18 Mar 2019 09:23

Looks fantastic

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby exelone31 » 18 Mar 2019 12:21

Looks fantastic

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby emmasensei » 18 Mar 2019 12:45

Looks fantastic

:lol:

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby CTroyMathis » 18 Mar 2019 13:11

Yep, looks fantastic

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby xen0blue » 18 Mar 2019 16:09

Looks fantastic.

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eburress
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby eburress » 18 Mar 2019 17:06

Well it's (almost) unanimous! Woohoo!

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 18 Mar 2019 17:48

It's an interesting dichotomy. Like so many changes in Deep Ellum it's liked by the Internet armchair quarterbacks who don't live in the neighborhood, yet almost universally detested by the people in the neighborhood it's in.

The only person I know who's looking forward to this development is the owner of the 7-Eleven franchise across the street.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 19 Mar 2019 11:58

And City Hall and other landowners who have a stake in the neighborhood as well. As well as future retail and restaurants in the area who would benefit from the additional foot traffic.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 19 Mar 2019 12:29

I'm talking about the people who live here.

Not a City Hall that only cares about more tax revenue they can waste on signature bridges, fake rapids and useless street cars.

Not a North Carolina company that owns half the buildings.

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Mr. Amsterdam
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Mr. Amsterdam » 19 Mar 2019 12:30

Hannibal Lecter wrote:It's an interesting dichotomy. Like so many changes in Deep Ellum it's liked by the Internet armchair quarterbacks who don't live in the neighborhood, yet almost universally detested by the people in the neighborhood it's in.

The only person I know who's looking forward to this development is the owner of the 7-Eleven franchise across the street.


No kidding. What do they think this is, the city center?!

/s
1999 - 2017

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby joshua.dodd » 19 Mar 2019 13:25

As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby DPatel304 » 19 Mar 2019 13:31

Isn't the change in Deep Ellum just more of a sign of the changing times, more than anything? The whole grunge/metal/punk rock thing isn't as popular as it was back in the 90s, so Deep Ellum today is just a reflection on how society has changed.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby eburress » 19 Mar 2019 13:40

joshua.dodd wrote:As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.


I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby ndtexan » 19 Mar 2019 14:11

Quick question because I really don't know - where do longtime residents of Deep Ellum actually live? The only residences that have been around awhile which come to mind are the Adam Hats lofts.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 19 Mar 2019 16:43

ndtexan wrote:Quick question because I really don't know - where do longtime residents of Deep Ellum actually live? The only residences that have been around awhile which come to mind are the Adam Hats lofts.


Mostly in places like this: https://www.wfaa.com/video/features/gia ... 87-2172569 :-)

Ignoring the new developments like Broadstone Ambrose and the Case Building, the most visible are converted warehouses like Murray Lofts, Deep Ellum Lofts, Futura Lofts, 3333 Elm Lofts and Mitchell Lofts.

https://www.deepellum-lofts.com/
https://futura.deepellum-lofts.com/
https://www.3333elmstreetlofts.com/
https://westdalelofts.deepellum-lofts.com/
https://www.themitchelllofts.com/

There are also less visible properties. For example, most of the Malcolm X/Main/Commerce/Walton block is ground floor retail with residential above it. And there a surprising number of conversions and townhomes around Exposition Park.

What most people don't know about are the smaller, individual residences. Almost every block has people living on it, it's just not obvious. My small block on Commerce at Hall has about 50 residents. Even the busiest section of Elm Street has residences. https://goo.gl/maps/jWSrveSkKx52 https://goo.gl/maps/HXsiipJtdP12. And there are lots of folks living on the side streets like Walton, Clover and Virgil.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby joshua.dodd » 19 Mar 2019 18:36

DPatel304 wrote:Isn't the change in Deep Ellum just more of a sign of the changing times, more than anything? The whole grunge/metal/punk rock thing isn't as popular as it was back in the 90s, so Deep Ellum today is just a reflection on how society has changed.



This has nothing to do with it at all. It's the mentality of the people, which is entitled and even aggressive. I've had interesting conversations with my Lyft drivers about Deep Ellum. Most tell me that they avoid it at all cost because of said reasons. Nonetheless, the Dallas housing market is a house of cards that's slowing down anyways.
Last edited by joshua.dodd on 19 Mar 2019 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby joshua.dodd » 19 Mar 2019 18:39

eburress wrote:
joshua.dodd wrote:As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.


I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.



Keyword is sustainable. This is debatable.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby The_Overdog » 20 Mar 2019 09:16

Keyword is sustainable. This is debatable.

Maybe, but since the building in question has been abandoned since the mid 1990s, the past you all are pining for was not sustainable, and that is not debatable.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 20 Mar 2019 10:22

joshua.dodd wrote:
eburress wrote:
joshua.dodd wrote:As someone who used to live in Deep Ellum, I have to concur. The sentiment for the original Deep Ellum crowd is negative. While the development has brought tremendous revenue to the bars and businesses, t has also killed the atmosphere that Deep Ellum was once known for. It really isn't as fantastic as it once was. Now it has become overpriced and consumed by trust fund kids.


I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.



Keyword is sustainable. This is debatable.


So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.

Adding more residential to the area can help sustain some of these new and old businesses and will also help Deep Ellum offer more businesses for the residents (not just bars). That imo will help foster a more sustainable neighborhood.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby tamtagon » 20 Mar 2019 11:22

The isolation of Deep Ellum is probably over for good, as it should be. The residential opportunities found in the Deep Ellum of the 90s, 00s and 10s will be found in another part of town, for sure.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby ndtexan » 20 Mar 2019 11:54

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
There are also less visible properties. For example, most of the Malcolm X/Main/Commerce/Walton block is ground floor retail with residential above it. And there a surprising number of conversions and townhomes around Exposition Park.

What most people don't know about are the smaller, individual residences. Almost every block has people living on it, it's just not obvious. My small block on Commerce at Hall has about 50 residents. Even the busiest section of Elm Street has residences. https://goo.gl/maps/jWSrveSkKx52 https://goo.gl/maps/HXsiipJtdP12. And there are lots of folks living on the side streets like Walton, Clover and Virgil.


Helpful and interersting. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 20 Mar 2019 12:48

tamtagon wrote:The isolation of Deep Ellum is probably over for good, as it should be.


I wonder what the reaction would be here if they had built The Epic in Bishop Arts.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 20 Mar 2019 12:59

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.


It's easy to blame the lack of crowds, but it's BS.

Idle Rye had inconsistent food. Sometimes great, frequently bleh. A restaurant won't make it anywhere like that. The Bitter End, which replaced it, seems to be doing very well. The Armory, just a block down the street, opened about the same time as Idle Rye. It is always packed -- and the owners have done well enough that they've opened Ruins.

A good example is Local. You never hear about them. Hell, you've probably never even heard of them. They get almost zero press. They're in a secondary location and you could easily walk by them without noticing them. But they've been successful for over 15 years selling $$$ comfort food. If you have a good product people will come, and they will come back.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby j_d_p » 20 Mar 2019 13:49

Hannibal Lecter wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.


It's easy to blame the lack of crowds, but it's BS.

Idle Rye had inconsistent food. Sometimes great, frequently bleh. A restaurant won't make it anywhere like that. The Bitter End, which replaced it, seems to be doing very well. The Armory, just a block down the street, opened about the same time as Idle Rye. It is always packed -- and the owners have done well enough that they've opened Ruins.

A good example is Local. You never hear about them. Hell, you've probably never even heard of them. They get almost zero press. They're in a secondary location and you could easily walk by them without noticing them. But they've been successful for over 15 years selling $$$ comfort food. If you have a good product people will come, and they will come back.


The Armoury makes great food. So that helps. And agreed about Local, I love it, but the only time I've found it hard to get a reservation is on Valentine's Day. Great great food, awesome ambiance, just great overall.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby joshua.dodd » 20 Mar 2019 15:20

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
joshua.dodd wrote:
eburress wrote:
I can totally see how the current dynamic is a bummer to longtime residents, but clearly this iteration of Deep Ellum is more sustainable than what came before.



Keyword is sustainable. This is debatable.


So what was sustainable in the past that isn't now? Aren't some bars closing because they don't get enough traffic only on the weekends? I heard the idle rye owners say this in news story.

Adding more residential to the area can help sustain some of these new and old businesses and will also help Deep Ellum offer more businesses for the residents (not just bars). That imo will help foster a more sustainable neighborhood.



In theory, yes, this should be a sustainable model. However, current economic indicators are showing an inevitable slowdown in the market. And the housing market is already over valued has high as 20%, which is unsustainable. The problem is that the market is being overbuilt with luxury units.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-s-ho ... 1543248073

https://moneymaven.io/mishtalk/economic ... S79u4OA0w/

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby LongonBigD » 20 Mar 2019 15:33

If the market is overbuilt with luxury apartment units, what is the historical solution based on previous cycles?

Do they eventually convert to condos? Are the prices lowered to reflect softer market conditions? If the prices are lowered does this make it even harder to rent out older less luxurious units? Do they sit vacant for a while further prolonging the residential RE market downturn?

I am curious to know what insight others have on this.

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Hannibal Lecter
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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Hannibal Lecter » 20 Mar 2019 18:07

Historically, lots of "FREE RENT" signs everywhere until the market hits equilibrium.

By giving a month or two of free rent prorated over the term of the lease the tenants get a reduced payment and the developers get to show the units leased at proforma rates to keep the wolves, er, I mean the lenders at bay.

Condo conversions -- which are rare in this region -- come in strong markets. I'm sure there have been some this cycle, but I sure don't recall any.

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby Cmacemm » 21 Mar 2019 08:49

DPatel304 wrote:Isn't the change in Deep Ellum just more of a sign of the changing times, more than anything? The whole grunge/metal/punk rock thing isn't as popular as it was back in the 90s, so Deep Ellum today is just a reflection on how society has changed.

This is way off base. I grew up in the 90’s punk scene and have stayed involved over the years and it’s way bigger now than it ever has been. The lack of DIY spaces and places like the old red blood club is why punk/metal has pretty much moved out of DE though shows still do come thru there pretty often.

We were in Dallas visiting last week and went to BrainDead Brewing and I couldn’t believe how different the area looked

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Re: Deep Ellum: Epic ~ Knights of Pythias Temple

Postby tamtagon » 21 Mar 2019 09:48

^what was the name of that club across the street from Galaxy Club? I've been trying to remember for weeks now, and just cannot. There was a couple skate ramps in the courtyard....


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