Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

willyk
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby willyk » 10 Jul 2022 02:17

I45Tex wrote:I'm curious when you consider those times of success happened. Photos I've seen of the Rolex Building and the Crescent under construction make it look like nothing too far south of Turtle Creek or southwest of State-Thomas was going places residentially (or in any other way than office buildings) until relatively late in the redevelopment arc of the Uptown area, but that's just my past impression...


I am sure I will get corrected for this loose history but the way I saw it was that Knox-Henderson had been a solid residential neighborhood since the 70s (really before then). Oak Lawn went back just as far. State-Thomas started happening in the 80s and went from vacant lots to a solid apartment neighborhood in just a few years. So the nascent Uptown was basically framed by high rent residential neighborhoods on three sides and downtown on the fourth. Then West Village came along and validated Uptown proper and the rest is history. The neighborhoods grew inward as an office and residential mix with M&O finally filling the final hole in the doughnut.

Crescent and Rolex were once outliers that have now been shown to have been ahead of their time. Rolex was pure office with no surrounding residential to interact with, and the initial retail at the Crescent was a dismal failure that would be hard to imagine today. Now they are solidly in Uptown, but when they were constructed they were considered outposts and seen as “outside of downtown.”

So the analogous question raised by the DMN article is might the same phenomenon occur if the old CBD becomes mostly residential? Might that make new office and residential more attractive to the north to link up with Ross Ave or to the West to link up with DE?

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I45Tex
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby I45Tex » 10 Jul 2022 17:15

And to the west to link up with Bishop Arts and Trinity Groves? And to the south to link up with the Cedars?

Thanks for taking time on that response.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby willyk » 10 Jul 2022 18:12

I45Tex wrote:And to the west to link up with Bishop Arts and Trinity Groves? And to the south to link up with the Cedars?

Thanks for taking time on that response.


Yes— I meant to say to the East for DE, but to your point, I agree that a revitalized Central Residential District could flip the paradigm and bridge to all the neighborhoods surrounding it!

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby JDumont146 » 10 Jul 2022 19:20

willyk wrote:
I45Tex wrote:I'm curious when you consider those times of success happened. Photos I've seen of the Rolex Building and the Crescent under construction make it look like nothing too far south of Turtle Creek or southwest of State-Thomas was going places residentially (or in any other way than office buildings) until relatively late in the redevelopment arc of the Uptown area, but that's just my past impression...


I am sure I will get corrected for this loose history but the way I saw it was that Knox-Henderson had been a solid residential neighborhood since the 70s (really before then). Oak Lawn went back just as far. State-Thomas started happening in the 80s and went from vacant lots to a solid apartment neighborhood in just a few years. So the nascent Uptown was basically framed by high rent residential neighborhoods on three sides and downtown on the fourth. Then West Village came along and validated Uptown proper and the rest is history. The neighborhoods grew inward as an office and residential mix with M&O finally filling the final hole in the doughnut.

Crescent and Rolex were once outliers that have now been shown to have been ahead of their time. Rolex was pure office with no surrounding residential to interact with, and the initial retail at the Crescent was a dismal failure that would be hard to imagine today. Now they are solidly in Uptown, but when they were constructed they were considered outposts and seen as “outside of downtown.”

So the analogous question raised by the DMN article is might the same phenomenon occur if the old CBD becomes mostly residential? Might that make new office and residential more attractive to the north to link up with Ross Ave or to the West to link up with DE?


I wish every single day that more small scale residential developers would start filling the holes downtown instead of these massive office developers. Even if they just filled half of the vacant land we would have a completely different downtown.

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I45Tex
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby I45Tex » 11 Jul 2022 09:33

I agree with you. I think our current regulations kind of result in a trough (of residential developer net profits per square foot, compared to financial risk) on the graph anywhere between "single family townhomes with ground floor garage doors" and the lifeless doorless Dallas Donut garage wrap superblock.

So the middle ground is less desirable to build, while the peaks are less desirable to us because neither of them makes a human-scaled or adaptation-flexible neighborhood (especially if it constitutes more than a small fraction of the city blocks).

Hope that this sheds some light on our CBD dilemma. What do y'all think?
It's true that office tower conversions to mixed use are not particularly good on those counts, either, but in addition to them making lower-risk use of what is already there, they'll also leave more urban land for fine-grained flexibility just by virtue of stacking the same residential square footage into tiny neighborhood parcels.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 11 Jul 2022 12:23

With these four projects, including Energy Plaza, does anyone have a viewpoint on how it would affect the overall Office Occupancy numbers? It sounds like we don't have 100% accurate numbers on how much sqft we are talking off the market here but is anyone able to give a potential range on are we talking a 5% decrease in office occupancy for the CBD at least? With half of Reinaisannce and Energy Plaza plus 1/3 of the other two, that has to make some sort of positive impact. I know office space downtown has still been hemorrhaging tenants, though, so it could be a net neutral gain.

1700 Pacific still seems to be stonewaller Downtown as well. They did a full renovation to their food court, but their outdoor spaces are abysmal, and last I heard, they will take any lease short term or long term to get any office lease in that building cause they aren't competitive enough for the big leases. I could be working on old info though. They seem like the next major brick that needs to fall on renovation to mixed-use. They now have park access views so the property has to see an improvement in the right hands.
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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 11 Jul 2022 12:56

Considered on its own, it would certainly be significant, but as you noted, the hemorrhaging from downtown seems to continue, as it has been doing for decades. The past three-four decades of DMN archives have plenty of articles touting how the conversion of all those empty buildings was going to cause downtown's office occupancy to turn healthy... and here we are. (As I've shown in another thread, as of the end of 2021, downtown Dallas has almost 5 million square feet less office space occupied than we had 9 years ago.

In rough approximations:
Energy Plaza would remove 500,000 square feet
Renaissance would remove 800,000 square feet
Bryan Tower would remove 400,000 square feet
Santander would remove 466,000 square feet
Total office space removed from the market: 2,166,000 square feet.

Using Transwestern's numbers, that would reduce the total downtown inventory to 29,247,825 square feet, and would reduce the vacancy rate from 27.8% to 22.5%

For additional context, downtown Dallas is already the second largest submarket, after Upper Tollway/West Plano (31,831,521 square feet). The Lower Tollway submarket has 27.7 million square feet.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 11 Jul 2022 13:01

Thank you for the rough numbers. Just want some context on this thread too. It's good to see outdated office space go cause the only way Downtown will succeed in the office market is brand new space. No one wants to be in a 1980s tower. Most tenants are looking for new blue glass and steel boxes.
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby I45Tex » 11 Jul 2022 14:23

As we've noted before, though, the comparison of submarkets is just as precise in meaning as comparing the economy of Boston city limits to the economy of Phoenix or Los Angeles city limits. Tollway submarkets only provide a 'larger' office footprint in a much larger square mileage of geography that ignores everything else. Saying downtown Dallas is not cost competitive is actually like saying San Francisco is not cost competitive with our job growth. It's true because Tollway projects are working with lower valued land and other overhead than projects in central Dallas, just as Texas developers are working with lower valued land than Bay Area developers. Higher neighborhood price is still higher valued space -- so it doesn't mean less attractive, even when the gross occupancy numbers show attraction going in the negative direction.

If the same square mileage of DTD starts bringing lower prices than the same square mileage of Plano, we can discuss this again, but people aren't fleeing Dallas for equivalent landscapes on the Frisco fringe any more than they're moving from San Francisco to equally high priced city blocks in Texas downtowns. The cost and attractiveness curve still shows that SF and DTD are valuable; what's attracting new investors or new employers and talent pool to Texas and to Collin County is largely the hope of quicker buying low and selling high if people ride an appreciation-hunting and bargain-hunting wave before its crest.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 11 Jul 2022 15:05

I45Tex wrote:As we've noted before, though, the comparison of submarkets is just as precise in meaning as comparing the economy of Boston city limits to the economy of Phoenix or Los Angeles city limits. Tollway submarkets only provide a 'larger' office footprint in a much larger square mileage of geography that ignores everything else. Saying downtown Dallas is not cost competitive is actually like saying San Francisco is not cost competitive with our job growth. It's true because Tollway projects are working with lower valued land and other overhead than projects in central Dallas, just as Texas developers are working with lower valued land than Bay Area developers. Higher neighborhood price is still higher valued space -- so it doesn't mean less attractive, even when the gross occupancy numbers show attraction going in the negative direction.

If the same square mileage of DTD starts bringing lower prices than the same square mileage of Plano, we can discuss this again, but people aren't fleeing Dallas for equivalent landscapes on the Frisco fringe any more than they're moving from San Francisco to equally high priced city blocks in Texas downtowns. The cost and attractiveness curve still shows that SF and DTD are valuable; what's attracting new investors or new employers and talent pool to Texas and to Collin County is largely the hope of quicker buying low and selling high if people ride an appreciation-hunting and bargain-hunting wave before its crest.


Then let's take a look at office pricing: Of the 26 submarkets in the Dallas market, Downtown Dallas has the 12th highest Class A Rent. Four of Fort Worth's 10 submarkets (including Downtown Fort Worth) have higher Class A rent than Downtown Dallas. So for the entire DFW market, Downtown Dallas has the 16th highest Class A rent, out of 36 submarkets (and 8 of those submarkets don't even have any Class A buildings).

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby I45Tex » 11 Jul 2022 16:25

District proximity packed with buildings could be analyzed like a set of water buckets which each cost more to fill as its level gets higher and higher.

That's due in part to the fact that packing more buildings into a small area like Uptown requires higher architectural cost than adding that same amount of new building in a 10x wider bucket like LBJ or NCX. An area with a small footprint is going to get deeper much quicker than a wider geographic footprint (But as a tradeoff it also means more efficient infrastructure -- less distance of cement and wires to serve the same amount of people -- and more efficient spillover serendipity from urban proximity, as well as greater tax returns per acre for public services).

Anyway, to represent that phenomenon in terms of valuation, I may chart some sort of log/log plot of the total market revenue per submarket (below) against how many total square miles the submarket requires:

multiply the mean Class A rate by the total Class A square footage occupied, the mean Class B rate by total occupied Class B square footage, same for Class C. The sum of these three with owner-occupied buildings is the current value of each office submarket by office revenue.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 11 Jul 2022 18:22

I45Tex wrote:District proximity packed with buildings could be analyzed like a set of water buckets which each cost more to fill as its level gets higher and higher.

That's due in part to the fact that packing more buildings into a small area like Uptown requires higher architectural cost than adding that same amount of new building in a 10x wider bucket like LBJ or NCX. An area with a small footprint is going to get deeper much quicker than a wider geographic footprint (But as a tradeoff it also means more efficient infrastructure -- less distance of cement and wires to serve the same amount of people -- and more efficient spillover serendipity from urban proximity, as well as greater tax returns per acre for public services).

Anyway, to represent that phenomenon in terms of valuation, I may chart some sort of log/log plot of the total market revenue per submarket (below) against how many total square miles the submarket requires:

multiply the mean Class A rate by the total Class A square footage occupied, the mean Class B rate by total occupied Class B square footage, same for Class C. The sum of these three with owner-occupied buildings is the current value of each office submarket by office revenue.


Okay. You do that. :roll: And be sure to let us know what the point of that would be in the context of the discussion here. I don't recall anyone saying anything one way or the other about the aggregate value of downtown Dallas vs other submarkets. What we already know is that the lease cost curve shows that the market does not value downtown Dallas office space as highly as it values the office space in many of our other submarkets.
Last edited by Tucy on 11 Jul 2022 19:34, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 11 Jul 2022 19:19

I45Tex's proposed aggregate valuation comparison of submarkets sounded mildly interesting, if not terribly relevant to the discussion, so i went ahead and did it. Transwestern doesn't break their report out between Class A and Class B so I had to use a different market service -- CBRE, which already has their 2nd Quarter 2022 market report. Using I45Tex's proposed methodology, the aggregate value of the biggest submarkets in DFW:

Far North Dallas: $1.086 Billion
Las Colinas: 742 Million
Downtown: 560 Million
Richardson/Plano: 495 Million
Uptown/TC: 482 Million
LBJ Freeway: 458 Million
Central Expressway: 305 Million

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tamtagon
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby tamtagon » 11 Jul 2022 20:47

^is there a way to show that in dollars per square mile?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby willyk » 12 Jul 2022 04:48

Tucy wrote:Considered on its own, it would certainly be significant, but as you noted, the hemorrhaging from downtown seems to continue, as it has been doing for decades. The past three-four decades of DMN archives have plenty of articles touting how the conversion of all those empty buildings was going to cause downtown's office occupancy to turn healthy... and here we are. (As I've shown in another thread, as of the end of 2021, downtown Dallas has almost 5 million square feet less office space occupied than we had 9 years ago.

In rough approximations:
Energy Plaza would remove 500,000 square feet
Renaissance would remove 800,000 square feet
Bryan Tower would remove 400,000 square feet
Santander would remove 466,000 square feet
Total office space removed from the market: 2,166,000 square feet.

Using Transwestern's numbers, that would reduce the total downtown inventory to 29,247,825 square feet, and would reduce the vacancy rate from 27.8% to 22.5%

For additional context, downtown Dallas is already the second largest submarket, after Upper Tollway/West Plano (31,831,521 square feet). The Lower Tollway submarket has 27.7 million square feet.


Thanks for this Tucy. To me that shows a material improvement.

Does anyone know whether, if these conversions turn out successfully, might the developers convert the rest of these buildings to residential or hotel too, or is there some barrier that would require the developers to keep the balance of the space as office?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 12 Jul 2022 04:59

willyk wrote:
Tucy wrote:Considered on its own, it would certainly be significant, but as you noted, the hemorrhaging from downtown seems to continue, as it has been doing for decades. The past three-four decades of DMN archives have plenty of articles touting how the conversion of all those empty buildings was going to cause downtown's office occupancy to turn healthy... and here we are. (As I've shown in another thread, as of the end of 2021, downtown Dallas has almost 5 million square feet less office space occupied than we had 9 years ago.

In rough approximations:
Energy Plaza would remove 500,000 square feet
Renaissance would remove 800,000 square feet
Bryan Tower would remove 400,000 square feet
Santander would remove 466,000 square feet
Total office space removed from the market: 2,166,000 square feet.

Using Transwestern's numbers, that would reduce the total downtown inventory to 29,247,825 square feet, and would reduce the vacancy rate from 27.8% to 22.5%

For additional context, downtown Dallas is already the second largest submarket, after Upper Tollway/West Plano (31,831,521 square feet). The Lower Tollway submarket has 27.7 million square feet.


Thanks for this Tucy. To me that shows a material improvement.

Does anyone know whether, if these conversions turn out successfully, might the developers convert the rest of these buildings to residential or hotel too, or is there some barrier that would require the developers to keep the balance of the space as office?


That’s an interesting question. I wonder what is the advantage of doing these partial conversions, rather than the entire buildings.

And yes, that reduction in the office vacancy rates would show a material improvement, but it’s really just windows dressing. I mean is the office market really improving if you reduce the vacancy rate by removing space from the market? Don’t misunderstand me, I think these conversions are great for downtown and the additional residents will add to the life, but let’s not get carried away about how much of an improvement they are to the office market.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby The_Overdog » 12 Jul 2022 11:29

I mean is the office market really improving if you reduce the vacancy rate by removing space from the market?


Of course it is since both supply and demand are the variables. Either one can be reduced/increased to adjust the price for space being offered, which is what is trying to be maximized. City leaders never seem to get that for highway frontage or office space. They somehow get it and go overboard for single-family housing.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Cbdallas » 12 Jul 2022 14:30

I have always thought that the most competitive aspect of downtown is that it can truly provide the only real big city urban experience to the entire region. Make it the go to place for those seeking out that lifestyle to move to and business will eventually come back to office market.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tnexster » 13 Jul 2022 08:59

Cbdallas wrote:I have always thought that the most competitive aspect of downtown is that it can truly provide the only real big city urban experience to the entire region. Make it the go to place for those seeking out that lifestyle to move to and business will eventually come back to office market.


I think this is true but I also think that even with this current massive conversion of office to residential it's still not enough. Downtown population numbers need to be much higher. This will certainly help but it still isn't there and even after these conversions the office vacancy rate is too high.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 13 Jul 2022 13:26

Plus, having live people walking around because they live there is better than empty streets when it comes to attracting new office demand. Yes, parking ratios, the available space age on the market, location of the bldg to traffic, transportation, and nearby amenities like restaurants and service retail matter too, but having people and rooftops showing life makes new office demand more likely. We will know when the office demand returns when more parking garages are proposed. Sadly office space still demands higher than historical needs so more parking will be proposed to lure the tenants.

Glad to see this property Energy Plaza not sit dormant for long. It's in a good location and will help prop up the dead zone behind it provided by First Baptist and their campus of quiet reflection.
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby The_Overdog » 14 Jul 2022 09:16

IMO Dallas needs to aim for close to 30-50k in population just in the downtown loop. We have what -like 13-15k right now?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby IcedCowboyCoffee » 14 Jul 2022 12:10

30k and we're looking at a completely different core. I hope we see it happen sooner rather than later.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tnexster » 14 Jul 2022 12:21

The_Overdog wrote:IMO Dallas needs to aim for close to 30-50k in population just in the downtown loop. We have what -like 13-15k right now?


That sounds right, DDI claims 14k in their latest (2021) annual report so am guessing by now thats around 15k. Downtown needs a massive wave of residential construction, maybe we are about to see it.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 14 Jul 2022 12:41

Tnexster wrote:
The_Overdog wrote:IMO Dallas needs to aim for close to 30-50k in population just in the downtown loop. We have what -like 13-15k right now?


That sounds right, DDI claims 14k in their latest (2021) annual report so am guessing by now thats around 15k. Downtown needs a massive wave of residential construction, maybe we are about to see it.


Their 1st quarter 2022 update also says 14k. Is there really reason to think we may have added 1000 residents in the past 3 or 6 months? The only way I could see that hapening is if some significant number of units became available for the first time. Not sure that's the case. What new units delivered in the past year? 335 units at East Quarter... What else? (and keep in mind, new buildings intentionally do not lease up 100% (or 95%) in the first month or two they are open).

Also, Downtown Dallas, Inc. has always estimated high. FWIW, the US Census found 10,598 lived in downtown Dallas in 2020. Of course there's been growth since then, but doubtful we've added 3,500, let alone 4,500 in just over 2 years. I don't have a good record handy of how many units have been added since the census, but my back-of-the-envelope guesstimating would put us closer to 12,500.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby mdg109 » 14 Jul 2022 13:53

How does our downtown population compare to Austin or Houston? I know I could look it up, but I haven't been to either in a while, and am curious to know if their reported number is reflected in their downtown vibrancy.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 14 Jul 2022 14:09

mdg109 wrote:How does our downtown population compare to Austin or Houston? I know I could look it up, but I haven't been to either in a while, and am curious to know if their reported number is reflected in their downtown vibrancy.


Probably 2-3,000 ahead of Houston. I think downtown Houston is around 10,000 now?

According to this report, the 2020 population of downtown Austin was 13,648, and probably growing faster than either downtown Dallas or downtown Houston - https://www.kvue.com/article/money/econ ... 8bcb9d906c

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby dallaz » 14 Jul 2022 14:45

^^^Post this article in another thread

America's new mainstreets: Downtown Dallas

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... allas.html

Today we have almost 15,000 residents in Downtown. It will be twice that in five years with everything that’s happening. The growth is phenomenal, and I don’t see anything getting in the way of it right now.


Potentially 30k in 5 years? It seems like y’all know more abt this than I do lol. Is this a serious possibility?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby The_Overdog » 14 Jul 2022 15:16

Potentially 30k in 5 years? It seems like y’all know more abt this than I do lol. Is this a serious possibility?


I believe they stretch the borders of downtown Dallas when it's convenient. There are no serious plans of adding 10-15k units in the bounded loop area of Downtown Dallas in the next 5 years. The 2500 units (people? unclear) in this post will still be really new then.

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Tucy
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 14 Jul 2022 15:24

dallaz wrote:^^^Post this article in another thread

America's new mainstreets: Downtown Dallas

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... allas.html

Today we have almost 15,000 residents in Downtown. It will be twice that in five years with everything that’s happening. The growth is phenomenal, and I don’t see anything getting in the way of it right now.


Potentially 30k in 5 years? It seems like y’all know more abt this than I do lol. Is this a serious possibility?


Very unlikely. First, he's doing some serious rounding up to get to the current 15,000. Let's be generous and say there are currently 14,000. Adding 16,000 residents in 5 years? Assuming 95% occupancy and the standard 1.4 residents per occupied apartment, that would require more than 12,000 additional apartments. And realistically, to be filled to 95% occupancy, those apartments need to be done and delivered in 4 years. So 3,000 new apartments every year for the next four years. How many are under construction right now and will be delivered this year? The only thing I'm finding under construction is 2200 Jackson, with 246 units, which might deliver within the first 12 months of our 4-year delivery period. Unless there are more under construction, we would end the first year, 2754 units behind pace.

Let's say with all four of the conversion projects discussed in this thread deliver during the second 12-month period and assume they really do deliver 2,500 units (which, as discussed upthread, seems like a pretty crazy exaggeration) - unless some others sneak in, that period would be 500 short, ending the second year 3,254 behind pace, and remember that's [i]assuming[i] we get 2,500 units out of the four conversion projects, which is nearly impossible (and that also assumes all four happen and they all four deliver before May 2024).

In short, that is a huge number of residential units that would have to be delivered every year, the likes of which we've never seen; even with all the proposals flying around, we don't really have reason to expect to see that many.
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby The_Overdog » 14 Jul 2022 15:48

Also, the source I got the 13k from was from 2016. So expect to add 250-500 units a year on the high side.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby dallaz » 14 Jul 2022 16:34

Thanks, for the responses. That makes a lot of sense.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby JDumont146 » 14 Jul 2022 17:14

The Matthews/Southwest building -the galbraith - is online now. That's 217 more units delivered this year.

Did any of the farmer's market apartment buildings deliver this year? Or the Hall Arts building? I think all of those plus the East Quarter would get close to 1,000 units added.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tucy » 14 Jul 2022 20:12

JDumont146 wrote:The Matthews/Southwest building -the galbraith - is online now. That's 217 more units delivered this year.

Did any of the farmer's market apartment buildings deliver this year? Or the Hall Arts building? I think all of those plus the East Quarter would get close to 1,000 units added.


Hall Arts opened two years ago.

Not sure if Galbraith opened in 2021 or 2022. 217 units.

But, I did discover that, per DDI's 2nd quarter 2022 "State of the Market", ". . . downtown say a total of 556 new units delivered in 2021. That puts us on a pace to a downtown population of maybe 17,000 in five years.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Zmitz » 14 Jul 2022 20:18

There was a comment on the subreddit thread about Ren Tower's conversion - they said they recently had a job in the building and rumor was the top 40 floors would be converted to residential. That would be roughly 1.2M of space, and certainly would be the largest single community in Dallas even if the units were large.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby CTroyMathis » 14 Jul 2022 20:28

I'm pretty sure this is mostly or close to correct. I looked at what empty space they are apparently "trying" to lease for office, and, the floor number did not go very high at all. I found that very interesting, and, I think there could be quite a very large amount of units in this building.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby tamtagon » 14 Jul 2022 21:56

The_Overdog wrote:I believe they stretch the borders of downtown Dallas when it's convenient.


Can't stand data splicing like that! Becomes meaningless.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby dallaz » 14 Jul 2022 23:01

tamtagon wrote:
The_Overdog wrote:I believe they stretch the borders of downtown Dallas when it's convenient.


Can't stand data splicing like that! Becomes meaningless.

Fr! It’s annoying.

willyk
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby willyk » 15 Jul 2022 07:00

The_Overdog wrote:Also, the source I got the 13k from was from 2016. So expect to add 250-500 units a year on the high side.


I think we are already way ahead of that pace. In addition to the 1100 or so new units in these four conversions, these seem for real:
- Centurion at Harwood Park; under construction; 246 units
- Todd in East Quarter; 47 stories
- Mill Creek on St Paul; 16 stories
- Portman Gateway; 1st tower; 350 units

WAG of 2300 new units in these 8 projects, x1.4 = 3,220 new residents. I think we will feel that downtown.

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rono3849
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby rono3849 » 15 Jul 2022 09:55

Hope we can see renderings of the 47 story tower in the East Quarter soon. I'm sure they are out there somewhere.

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Tivo_Kenevil
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tivo_Kenevil » 15 Jul 2022 21:09

Lovin' these Office Conversions. Just hope the Bottom floors are done right.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby lakewoodhobo » 16 Jul 2022 11:16

jrd1964 wrote:If so, they weren't in there long after it was built--Placid went bankrupto in the wake of the 1980s oil mess.


So Placid went flaccid? Sorry, should've started with "dad joke alert".

Todd Interests did a great job keeping Greyhound Bus and signing HKS when they renovated One Dallas Center, so it sucks that they couldn't do the same or Energy Plaza. But I imagine they have confidence in their ability to get it leased up.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby tamtagon » 16 Jul 2022 11:40

All these plaza redevelopments really underscore the importance of the city parks. The combinations should dramatically improve quality of life for CBD residents.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby willyk » 17 Jul 2022 03:34

tamtagon wrote:All these plaza redevelopments really underscore the importance of the city parks. The combinations should dramatically improve quality of life for CBD residents.


Three of the projects are at the east end of downtown and they have great access to Pacific Plaza, Carpenter Park and Thanksgiving Square. Hoping we get a good residential neighborhood out of all of this.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Urbancowboy » 22 Jul 2022 18:45

Downtown is trending in the right direction. In 5-7 years, being downtown will look and feel like a 24/7 city.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 26 Jul 2022 13:56

It's trending away from the Central Business District to the Central Busy District. Aka not as much office central and slowly but surely more mix to include people living out the non-work life, sleeping and daily life needs. We must let go of holding on to the CBD as this idealistic office central spot for the DFW metro. Yes, we should market Downtown to potential office tenants and big HQs, but as one type of the many neighborhoods an office employer can locate in. This We have "signature" 19080's buildings that the world has seen on TV, so we are the big dog thing is tired and is rooted in insecurity. Yes, we have a recognizable skyline compared with Legacy or Las Colinas, but that's not enough. The numbers prove that offices are locating more so in these flat suburban sites than in signature skylines. So let's use that understanding and stop leading on the wrong foot.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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rono3849
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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby rono3849 » 26 Jul 2022 21:05

Many of the big cities in America have towers dedicated to residential & office combos now. LA, Chicago, New York, Atlanta, San Francisco, and Seattle. It makes sense that this is now happening in Dallas, Houston, & Austin.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby willyk » 27 Jul 2022 04:58

cowboyeagle05 wrote:It's trending away from the Central Business District to the Central Busy District. Aka not as much office central and slowly but surely more mix to include people living out the non-work life, sleeping and daily life needs.


So how is the core doing for low-key neighborhood retail businesses like we see in more mature high rise neighborhoods— dry cleaners, bodegas, take out meals, drug stores, flowers, tailors, day spas, UPS/FedEx, etc.? Can downtown residents get what they need without having to grab the car keys? Any hope for more of these businesses? Rejuvenate the old retail space in the tunnel system to service the new residential?

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby Tnexster » 27 Jul 2022 08:55

cowboyeagle05 wrote:It's trending away from the Central Business District to the Central Busy District. Aka not as much office central and slowly but surely more mix to include people living out the non-work life, sleeping and daily life needs. We must let go of holding on to the CBD as this idealistic office central spot for the DFW metro. Yes, we should market Downtown to potential office tenants and big HQs, but as one type of the many neighborhoods an office employer can locate in. This We have "signature" 19080's buildings that the world has seen on TV, so we are the big dog thing is tired and is rooted in insecurity. Yes, we have a recognizable skyline compared with Legacy or Las Colinas, but that's not enough. The numbers prove that offices are locating more so in these flat suburban sites than in signature skylines. So let's use that understanding and stop leading on the wrong foot.


Is it becoming busy? Every time I go downtown now I am surprised how little resistance i encounter getting to the office, finding parking or even walking out for lunch. It seems largely dead unless you walk down to AT&T plaza where it's just the opposite. But that is dependent on a large supply of office workers coming down for something to eat. Some of the places I used to frequent for lunch use to have wait times but now it's easy to get in and and out. The places that I have noticed larger concentrations of people is AT&T, KWP and Farmers Market. Beyond that I'm less aware.

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 27 Jul 2022 12:15

^My comment was more of an easy way to ease out the use of the word business from CBD. There are pockets of bustle but it was more about removing the "business" out of the CBD.
Central Bus District, Cozy Bed District, Cycle Bike District anyone can have a go.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”

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Re: Downtown Dallas: Energy Plaza

Postby cowboyeagle05 » 27 Jul 2022 12:22

willyk wrote:
cowboyeagle05 wrote:It's trending away from the Central Business District to the Central Busy District. Aka not as much office central and slowly but surely more mix to include people living out the non-work life, sleeping and daily life needs.


So how is the core doing for low-key neighborhood retail businesses like we see in more mature high rise neighborhoods— dry cleaners, bodegas, take out meals, drug stores, flowers, tailors, day spas, UPS/FedEx, etc.? Can downtown residents get what they need without having to grab the car keys? Any hope for more of these businesses? Rejuvenate the old retail space in the tunnel system to service the new residential?


As a person who visits twice a week, I am not sure. We saw CVS close in the West End but kept the Main Street location open. We have seen Chik Fil A announce a location at the National this week, which to me sounds like the Renaissance Plaza food court is not long for this world. The underground stuff closes at 4 pm in many cases or something around that time slot, so I assume the street-level location will have better hours since it won't be tied to an underground tunnel for a mostly empty office building. Odd retail mix for The National to have 5 star restaurants upstairs but a Chik Fila A downstairs but hey not everyone can eat at Monarch. I assume the new ground floor of Energy Plaza will also attempt a valet-driven restaurant which these buildings prefer to sell the whole luxury angle and its easier to hand off parking to a valet team than ask people to find quick parking to run in and out.
“Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell”