Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Fabulous infill between EQ and DE. Hope we see lots more residential on this side of downtown, drawIng on the energy of Uber and the DE scene.

lakewoodhobo wrote:Went to Mudhen for dinner on Saturday and the place was pretty dead, enough that it wouldn't surprise me if they closed soon. Food and service were both great and relatively affordable, so I'm a little confused about why it isn't doing well.

You'd think that a huge reason for moving to this area is being able to walk to a decent restaurant, but I guess not.

You called it. Mudhen closes Sunday November 3

https://www.facebook.com/mudhendallas/p ... =3&theater

This is not a surprise, but what is a surprise is the tone deaf post on their facebook page blaming their customers:

"We tried very hard to give you healthful options but in the end we were not successful in attracting enough people to drive all the way down to the Farmers Market to eat."

As I wrote on /r/DowntownDallas, trying to convince patrons to "drive all the way down to the Farmers Market" as opposed to serving the 12,000 people who already live downtown was probably the start of their problems. I wanted to like this place. Service was slow, they didn't offer the happy hour specials they advertised on their web site, and I experienced a less than hospitable attitude from servers/managers on a multiple occasions. Plus, as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, the space was way too big.

Wow, yeah that is really lame by Mudhen. There are tons of people at the Farmers Market on the weekends. If you give them a compelling reason to come by (whether from nearby or further out), the people will come.

trueicon wrote: Plus, as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, the space was way too big.

I always thought the space was too large too. Even though the market is packed on weekends, it was crazy to think they needed that much space. The market has a much more "browsing, casual feel to it, which is why most of the eateries are casual, counter service type spaces. Mudhen was much more Deep Ellum than Farmers Market imo.

trueicon wrote:As I wrote on /r/DowntownDallas, trying to convince patrons to "drive all the way down to the Farmers Market" as opposed to serving the 12,000 people who already live downtown was probably the start of their problems. I wanted to like this place. Service was slow, they didn't offer the happy hour specials they advertised on their web site, and I experienced a less than hospitable attitude from servers/managers on a multiple occasions. Plus, as mentioned elsewhere on this thread, the space was way too big.

I'd have to agree with this entirely... I mean, the place aint bad, but it seemed to be trying a bit too hard to be an 'LA' type establishment. In fact, when I went to LA a few months ago and my vegan friends were driving me from place to place, the first thing that came to mine with all of them was Mudhen. lol. I'm not saying that's a terrible thing... It's just not Dallas.

Here's a hint to business... Most of the folks relocating from SoCal to Texas aren't the same ones splurging on trendy vegan resuraunts in LA. Don't try to make Dallas LA. Thx

trueicon wrote:This is not a surprise, but what is a surprise is the tone deaf post on their facebook page blaming their customers:

"We tried very hard to give you healthful options but in the end we were not successful in attracting enough people to drive all the way down to the Farmers Market to eat."

I really cringe every time a restaurant blames customers and/or a neighborhood for its closure, as if they weren't going to turn around and open a new restaurant months later. Same thing happened with Zoli's pizza where they almost trashed Oak Cliff for not supporting them more.

Agreed that the space was too big. There was also something about the patio that felt disconnected from the dining room and bar. Hope the landlord or the next tenant will fix this.

If only they had some good cheese fries with bacon and a double cheeseburger.

[/quote] Same thing happened with Zoli's pizza where they almost trashed Oak Cliff for not supporting them more.[/quote]

I thought the sign saying future Lululemon location was pretty funny

Everything about this is stupid. The way Mudhen blamed Dallasites for their failure, their tone, and the fact that the very expensive taxpayer funded fraud bait and switch that was the Farmer’s “Market” redevelopment is continuing to show little return.

Too big a space, and until many more residents and office workers populate that side of downtown (and southern Dallas in general) they are going to struggle to fill that huge space outside of weekend market hours (when 3 heads of greens and 2 jars of honey from central Texas are all that’s for sale. Oh and don't forget the Mission TM brand factory tortillas, YUM). As much as people have blasted me for saying the city has failed the farmers market and destroyed something that wasn’t broken, please point to me any positives other than that hipsters feel slightly more at home there when they go down to take their one “Farmie Selfie” and never return.

This is the classic Dallas leadership plan: take character and life, sanitize it, de-ethnicize it, form it to look like something in Plano which they have a bon*r for, rinse, repeat. Didn't work and still doesn't. They still want Dallas to look like our successful suburbs and honestly they just need to move there and let Dallas rebuild character.

This former market operator, pushed out by the new “plan,” says it best. He was successful there for 25 years and the city pushed him out for Mudhen. Which failed and then blamed us citizens (who funded this travesty on a massive scale). Cool story, Dallas.

It was broken before and was vastly unsustainable year over year in almost every way. It also wasn't an honest operation with people selling fruits and veggies they had no connection with. They literally bought pallets of fruits and veggies off the back of trucks headed to Walmart and resold it like it was a local family supporting the family farm. What they didn't sell from the day before they put in refrigerated trucks and continued to sell as fresh local stuff which was a scam and needed to be shut down since it was all happening under the cities watch and taxpayer dime.

The part I am the proudest of is the simple fact is the city got it off their books. The city had been running it into the ground for decades as a half baked city attraction which they have many of. Now it can sink and swim on its own and it's now taxable property with numbers of apartments and townhomes going verticle around it.

If it truly does fail and the enterprise running it now backs away from it all together let them sell it off to the next apartment developer or developer looking to build the next big HQ. The city did exactly what they should have and did do best for the tax payer and the Market itself.

Aside from Mudhen closing down, do we have any reason to think the Farmer's Market isn't doing well financially? I agree with cowboyeagle05 though, it's not the city's problem any more, which is great.

DPatel304 wrote:Aside from Mudhen closing down, do we have any reason to think the Farmer's Market isn't doing well financially? I agree with cowboyeagle05 though, it's not the city's problem any more, which is great.

We've been through this. While there were some people abusing the former system, there was still far more Texas produce for sale than there is now, which is almost zilch. Other cities, much smaller than Dallas, successfully operate actual farmers markets.

Privatization may sound fun but it was not sold to taxpayers correctly. It no longer functions as a farmers market. Also, the city of Dallas STILL owns shed one which is the most embarrassing part of the "new" farmers market. There's still no excuse for Shed 1, it was never privatized. The current food hall portions are what was privatized.

Whether people want to admit it or not (and I can confirm after living downtown for several years), Downtown Dallas and the areas immediately south are some of the worst urban food deserts in the entire USA. The Farmers market served a huge need before it was hipsterized. Even if it didn't make a profit, it was a city amenity. Which parks around Downtown have to make a profit to justify their existence?

Matt777 wrote:We've been through this. While there were some people abusing the former system, there was still far more Texas produce for sale than there is now, which is almost zilch. Other cities, much smaller than Dallas, successfully operate actual farmers markets.

Privatization may sound fun but it was not sold to taxpayers correctly. It no longer functions as a farmers market. Also, the city of Dallas STILL owns shed one which is the most embarrassing part of the "new" farmers market. There's still no excuse for Shed 1, it was never privatized. The current food hall portions are what was privatized.

Whether people want to admit it or not (and I can confirm after living downtown for several years), Downtown Dallas and the areas immediately south are some of the worst urban food deserts in the entire USA. The Farmers market served a huge need before it was hipsterized. Even if it didn't make a profit, it was a city amenity. Which parks around Downtown have to make a profit to justify their existence?

I was more curious as to how economically/financially successful (or not successful) it has been since they revamped it.

While I don't know the numbers, there are a couple of anecdotes that should tell a story.

1) Continued building of townhomes / apartments in the immediate vicinity
2) This Sunday I visited the market, and there was a material increase of both vendors (craftspeople, cooks, etc.) and visitors since last time I went this spring (at which there had been a similar increase since the time before that). It felt alive and thriving.

jetnd87 wrote:While I don't know the numbers, there are a couple of anecdotes that should tell a story.

1) Continued building of townhomes / apartments in the immediate vicinity
2) This Sunday I visited the market, and there was a material increase of both vendors (craftspeople, cooks, etc.) and visitors since last time I went this spring (at which there had been a similar increase since the time before that). It felt alive and thriving.

I was there yesterday (Sunday) as well. It was a beautiful day and the market was thriving and lively. I planned on being there for less than an hour and was there for almost three. Farmers Market, imo, is becoming one of the best places in Dallas to spend a weekend afternoon.

jetnd87 wrote:While I don't know the numbers, there are a couple of anecdotes that should tell a story.

1) Continued building of townhomes / apartments in the immediate vicinity
2) This Sunday I visited the market, and there was a material increase of both vendors (craftspeople, cooks, etc.) and visitors since last time I went this spring (at which there had been a similar increase since the time before that). It felt alive and thriving.

That's the way I look at it as well. I get that it's not a 'true' Farmer's Market, but, the bigger picture here is that it's a success (at least from what I see). At this point, I'm more concerned with getting people on the streets, businesses opening, and people living in Downtown, rather than preserving the authenticity of the Farmer's Market. Ideally we could have both, but, if that can't be the case, then creating a successful Downtown district (which it seems they have done) is what I'd prefer to see.

It wasn't a true farmers market before when the city was running it into the ground and its closer to one than it used to be for that matter. I will always wish it well and the fact that townhomes and apartments keep going up nearby means its certainly doesn't seem to be scaring development away.

Does anyone know what is being built on Harwood across from Farmers Market? I have yet to see a rendering or any details (sorry if I missed). It looks like it might be set to be taller than the the apartment next to it.

cyklopz wrote:Does anyone know what is being built on Harwood across from Farmers Market? I have yet to see a rendering or any details (sorry if I missed). It looks like it might be set to be taller than the the apartment next to it.

i heard it was a MF project geared towards seniors

4/12

I love infill in random places.

I don't know how long these have been there, but it looks like there have been some nice upgrades performed to the crosswalk on Marilla/Pearl St.

Condos at Canton & Park

Huh, that's a fairly unique design! I don't think I've seen this rendering before.

This one is moving quickly. It’s a neat looking development. I’d love to see more of this kind of stuff around the Farmer’s Market and East Quarter.

alkilo wrote:Condos at Canton & Park

Thanks for posting? Anyone got more details on this one. Haven't heard of it.

I zoomed the sign part of the picture, and very little is listed.

I looked on the asbuiltusa.com website, this project isn't listed, but 2 others nearby in the Cedars are.

Is the land where Ruibal’s sits owned by that business? I am surprised that nothing has been proposed for those blocks.

alkilo wrote:Condos at Canton & Park

Wow, that's a nice surprise! Very glad to see some new condos being built and happy to see more development in this part of town.

It sounds like it's a fairly small development, so I imagine it won't take long to complete.

I love small urban infill projects.

willyk wrote:Is the land where Ruibal’s sits owned by that business? I am surprised that nothing has been proposed for those blocks.

It looks like it is here to me:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7776875 ... 384!8i8192

A few years ago, I recall reading the city wanted to make more of an effort to make Marilla street more pedestrian friendly hoping to better connect the Farmer's Market and City Hall. This development will certainly be a (small) step towards that goal.

Seems like some mixed-use is looking to go in called Pearl Lofts. The spot seems to be where that NTFB (or DFM) administration office building is, though. Across from The Shed and the Harvest Lofts.

https://www.tdlr.texas.gov/TABS/Search/ ... 2021011588

I really am liking how the entire Farmer's Market area has evolved into a really cool urban corner in the downtown loop. Glad to see more on the way.

Agreed. I know people don't like that it isn't really a Farmer's Market any more, which is true, but it's an extremely successful urban district that has really revitalized that part of town.

This is great news though, this area is already bustling, so looking forward to seeing more residential and retail come here.

Very cool. Keep the infill coming.

Cool. Side note that same architectural firm that's listed here did addison circle multifamily as well

First look: New apartments are on the way at Dallas Farmers Market

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... rs-market/

The $29 million project is a “6-story mixed-use development of 100 apartments, 125 parking spaces and 5,300 square feet of office within the Dallas Farmers Market,” Spectrum Properties says in filings with the city.

The apartments will average 774 square feet. The third floor of the building will include a swimming pool and community center.

Construction is scheduled to start in September.

What is the average number of occupants the building will have per unit? 15ish years ago, I think the average was less than two persons per dwelling. That's low. But at the time, the CBD was just beginning to get attention as a residential neighborhood. Now, the appeal is firmly established, so I would expect the average persons per unit will have increased.... That is more two and three bedroom apartments... And apartments with more living space to accommodate occupants sharing a bedroom.

Tucy, do you remember any of this from before?

A good threshold to indicate the CBD has become what can be called a vibrant residential destination is higher dwelling occupancy.

I have said it before but I am really loving this part of Downtown. Can see it connect and
merge with East District soon enough.

tamtagon wrote:What is the average number of occupants the building will have per unit? 15ish years ago, I think the average was less than two persons per dwelling. That's low. But at the time, the CBD was just beginning to get attention as a residential neighborhood. Now, the appeal is firmly established, so I would expect the average persons per unit will have increased.... That is more two and three bedroom apartments... And apartments with more living space to accommodate occupants sharing a bedroom.

Tucy, do you remember any of this from before?

A good threshold to indicate the CBD has become what can be called a vibrant residential destination is higher dwelling occupancy.

Are we getting more 2 and 3 bedroom units?

I think a decent rule of thumb for urban high- and mid-rise residential occupancy is somewhere around 1.4 per occupied unit.

Cbdallas wrote:I have said it before but I am really loving this part of Downtown. Can see it connect and
merge with East District soon enough.

Yes, the developments are already starting to connect. Hardwood Park will help spied that up more.

DPatel304 wrote:
A few years ago, I recall reading the city wanted to make more of an effort to make Marilla street more pedestrian friendly hoping to better connect the Farmer's Market and City Hall. This development will certainly be a (small) step towards that goal.

Here is an update from 6/3 on that small condo development at 1880 Canton. I wonder what the pricing will be given the location.

Are you expecting the pricing to be high or low? I feel like "given the location" can be interpreted different ways in this area. Close to an emerging/exciting neighborhood, but also close to homeless facilities.

I expect the pricing to be on the lower side, since the building is small and likely won't have high end amenities. The area doesn't have very many ownership opportunities or things to do other than the Farmer's Market.

Being a family man, the Farmers Market district is where
I would want to live. It's a great district that seems vibrant.

The neighborhood is so under-retailed. Thousands of apartments and not one conventional restaurant. I think a concept that can do both lunch and dinner, like Cava or Hop Doddy, would do great here. Or someplace with a rooftop bar.

And I saw that the first floor space at the Taylor Lofts went to a co-working company. If the neighborhood can support this, it can support some basic retail too.

https://www.industriousoffice.com/l/dal ... expressway

willyk wrote:The neighborhood is so under-retailed. Thousands of apartments and not one conventional restaurant. I think a concept that can do both lunch and dinner, like Cava or Hop Doddy, would do great here. Or someplace with a rooftop bar.

And I saw that the first floor space at the Taylor Lofts went to a co-working company. If the neighborhood can support this, it can support some basic retail too.

https://www.industriousoffice.com/l/dal ... expressway

Hit the nail on the head with a big ass hammer. I will say, I'm glad that Industrious got it over other coworking spaces, but that's a conversation for another time. But yes, in terms of retail, it's definitely needed, as well as something like Cava (that'd be incredible here).

That's the idea with East Quarter though, right?

Having some quite residential blocks in-between multiple block of over-retailed block isn't a bad thing. Could become a major draw for more residential....

tamtagon wrote:Having some quite residential blocks in-between multiple block of over-retailed block isn't a bad thing. Could become a major draw for more residential....

That's a good point. Currently, it's a bit too quiet/sleepy for my tastes, but once the East Quarter and Smart District area start developing more, I could see myself really enjoying some of these apartments around the Farmer's market just because it may be comparatively more quiet.