Downtown Dallas - Fountain Place

[dukemeredith]

I haven't seen a thread specifically dedicated to Fountain Place.

There is a lot of work being done to the fountains right now. And the lobby refresh is eminent.

This rendering was posted in the lobby this morning.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

A server farm?

[kingpin]

3/19/17

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

[Tnexster]

^Lots of pics today, thanks for posting.

[joshua.dodd]

That parking garage is huge! That alone will do wonders reallocating parking from the spread of parking-lots in this part of town. And the density looks nice! The Fountain Place needs more density surrounding it. It has never looked right surrounded by parking lots like a lonely monolith.

[texasstar]

[willyk]

If this building needs a giant garage like this, it makes me wonder how it ever got built in the first place with such a deficiency. Were all of the employees just expected to fend for themselves on the surface lots, and that's no longer competitive today? There are still plenty of surface lots around this building.

I am not objecting to the garage, but it's a huge investment the owners are having to make and I am wondering what has made for such a dramatic change in tenant expectations.

[DPatel304]

I am not objecting to the garage, but it's a huge investment the owners are having to make and I am wondering what has made for such a dramatic change in tenant expectations.

Uptown.

[joshua.dodd]

Supply and Demand. Demand for office space in Downtown Dallas was limited to the big 80s towers. And even that was too small to fill up the vacuum of vacancies. Because of low demand the parking lots were adequate space to supply parking for suburbia commuters who worked in Downtown. Now, however, the dynamics of demand have changed dramatically. Demand for office space in Dallas ranks as the highest in the entire nation. Space is just about filled up in Uptown so now demand for office space in Downtown is growing. These parking lots are slated for vertical development. So, to reallocate current parking needs and future parking needs, this massive parking garage is being built. Supply and demand. It's long term planning ahead of the big rush.

[tamtagon]

If this building needs a giant garage like this, it makes me wonder how it ever got built in the first place with such a deficiency. Were all of the employees just expected to fend for themselves on the surface lots, and that's no longer competitive today? There are still plenty of surface lots around this building.

I am not objecting to the garage, but it's a huge investment the owners are having to make and I am wondering what has made for such a dramatic change in tenant expectations.

Way back when, most office workers had a little bit of her/his own space, many even had an office; today, people are crammed together so tight "elbow room" is shared. It's a rip-off for the average office worker, bonus check for a handful of of crafty executives, and a big pay-out to stock holders.

[R1070]

Just like we are seeing with Victory Park, the surface lots will start to disappear as the CBD fills in. This is definitely a good forward thinking development, because the lots where their employees are parking now, will be gone before too long.

[dukemeredith]

If this building needs a giant garage like this, it makes me wonder how it ever got built in the first place with such a deficiency. Were all of the employees just expected to fend for themselves on the surface lots, and that's no longer competitive today? There are still plenty of surface lots around this building.

I am not objecting to the garage, but it's a huge investment the owners are having to make and I am wondering what has made for such a dramatic change in tenant expectations.

There's quite a large parking garage underneath FP; which was built in anticipation of the twin towers.

But as others have already observed, the space per employee has lowered; more people work in the building now than when it was originally built.

And the spaces underground are priced at a premium. And while there are always plenty of spots in the underground garage, not everyone's employers are willing to pay the premium. They'd rather pay the cost of the cheaper surface parking options.

Again, like others have suggested, that the garage is being built is perhaps a sign that those surface lots won't be around too much longer. One can hope...

[exelone31]

I may be totally oblivious to this, but would there be a point where Dallas would become a city where people "own" parking spots? I know we're probably far, far away from it, but I had a buddy in Chicago who owned a parking spot downtown and actually contemplated leasing it out. It seems these garages, while they may appear to be excess capacity now, could become valuable "auto real estate".

[CRE_Investor]

The EPA has been a large tenant at Fountain Place since 1985 occupying just under 273k SF in its most recent lease with almost no parking provided in the building for its employees. They are leaving and moving to Renaissance Tower so the landlord has to re-lease all of that space, and there is no way they can do that today without the ability to provide substantially more parking than the EPA had. Without the new garage that building parks 1 per 1,000 SF and after the new garage they can park about 2.5 per 1,000 SF compared to a rule of thumb desire for at least 3 per 1,000 SF for urban Dallas locations. For another point of reference, I believe the new Goldman Sachs lease at Trammell Crow Center calls for 6/1,000 parking which is was the big driver to build their new garage.

[jsoto3]

[Hannibal Lecter]

I may be totally oblivious to this, but would there be a point where Dallas would become a city where people "own" parking spots? I know we're probably far, far away from it, but I had a buddy in Chicago who owned a parking spot downtown and actually contemplated leasing it out. It seems these garages, while they may appear to be excess capacity now, could become valuable "auto real estate".

Garage parking spots in my condo building cost $10k when it was developed. Last I heard they lease for around $100/month. Just today someone put up a note looking for one to lease.

In the early 1980's there was a garage built downtown and marketed as condos. You owned your own spot. I believe it was this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7835478 ... a=!3m1!1e3 I have no idea what it's current status is.

If you saw Oliver Stone's "Talk Radio" the final scene was shot on the roof of that garage.

Speaking of "Talk Radio", a few shots of the 1980s skyline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5E9RV9TyEo

[ArtVandelay]

I may be totally oblivious to this, but would there be a point where Dallas would become a city where people "own" parking spots? I know we're probably far, far away from it, but I had a buddy in Chicago who owned a parking spot downtown and actually contemplated leasing it out. It seems these garages, while they may appear to be excess capacity now, could become valuable "auto real estate".

Garage parking spots in my condo building cost $10k when it was developed. Last I heard they lease for around $100/month. Just today someone put up a note looking for one to lease.

In the early 1980's there was a garage built downtown and marketed as condos. You owned your own spot. I believe it was this one: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7835478 ... a=!3m1!1e3 I have no idea what it's current status is.

If you saw Oliver Stone's "Talk Radio" the final scene was shot on the roof of that garage.

Speaking of "Talk Radio", a few shots of the 1980s skyline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5E9RV9TyEo

The 1200 Ross garage was developed by Treptow Development Co. around 1985. Apparently the garage was supposed to be architecturally interesting in that it had a "revolutionary, lightweight curtain wall of pastel blue, pink and white steel-mesh panels held in place by a tubular framework" (Dallas Morning News). It even won a citation from the Dallas Chapter of the AIA. How times have changed!! The original ground floor retail tenants were Fishburn Cleaning and Laundry and Minuteman Press. Chavez Properties bought the garage around 1995 and there was a day care on the ground floor around that time. The garage was one of the first to use a "toll-tag" like device for tenants in the late 90s. During the 2000's the City of Dallas Parking Services office was there and was the place to pay your parking tickets. Didn't find anything on the condo concept but that would be pretty cool.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Renders in case you forgot how this is supposed to look

[ArtVandelay]

Is the angled structure on Ross actually being built or is that just part of the rendering to lull people into thinking its more than just a garage?

[dpl-1202]

i was wondering the exact same thing Art

[maconahey]

[maconahey]

CBRE updated their property flyer the other day with updated garage renders

http://ucr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/ ... 050317.pdf

[tamtagon]

So, I guess we have to wait 'until the next cycle' for the entertainment-or-whatever nub....

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Bait and switch. Without the deck area The back side of the garage will create another street that has nothing to offer... but a wall of a parking garage.

The more I think about it; the more I realize this project does very little for the street level.

The retail facing Fountain place will have little to no interaction from the street. Theres even a wall where the streets are...why?

The deck area was what was making that connection from street to the retail beneath the garage in the original plan.

This just Sucks now.

[dukemeredith]

This is terribly disappointing.

Perhaps they didn't receive as much interest for the office 'nub' as they were hoping.

While the retail at the bottom is still sorely needed, the lack of street interaction is a gut punch. Really takes the wind out of the project's sails.

[willyk]

This building has always had a deficit in street presenence. As a result, this end of Ross is simply dead and impersonal. The owners cannot duck the problem with a lobby upgrade. The dead street scene has always hurt the building and rents. If they abandon the retail, it will continue to hurt them.

[muncien]

The retail along the bottom of the garage is still in play. But activating that corridor would have benefited greatly by better street interaction. It is a let down to not get that included as originally planned, but without much night time population over here there really isn't anyone to 'lure' into the development from that side.
Hopefully, when Headington does whatever he does with those lots to the south, that'll change the dynamic enough to support the 'nub'. One thing for sure... we don't need a lot of empty store fronts. They probably didn't want to overdue it all at once... I don't know.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

^Hopefully the nub turns out to be another residential building.

[tamtagon]

^Hopefully the nub turns out to be another residential building.

!!!!

That would be sweet for sure

[Tnexster]

Disappointing but in reality residential would be a better use for that space.

[Tnexster]

$70 million redo helps downtown's Fountain Place tower hang onto tenants

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... to-tenants

"The renewals and new leases are an absolute validation of the vision of Goddard Investment Group and their commitment to such a significant reinvestment in an iconic Dallas property," Cushman & Wakefield's Johnny Johnson said. "While most other Dallas properties of this vintage are getting cosmetic improvements, Fountain Place is being completely reinvented as a bustling live-work-play complex."

[NdoorTX]

The Dallas AIA Unbuilt Awards are upon us for 2017. It looks like some pretty stellar projects were never built, but at least we get to see some recognition for the local firms that designed them. Looking at one project in particular, labeled Tech Headquarters Campus for a an unknown company is pretty breathtaking. It appears to be on a lot owned by Tim Headington at Field and Ross. I wondered if it was a pipedream or possible spec tower for technology companies. Looking closely at the street side renderings it appears Golden Boy made a few appearances. I wonder if AT&T was seriously considering this site. Have a look- it would have been an amazing addition to DTD.







http://www.aiadallasdesignawards.com/entries.php

[tamtagon]

!!
I like that so much better than the twin tower deal floated for Harwood a while back....

[dukemeredith]

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/ ... ce-to.html

Dallas Business Journal article from yesterday also shows the render with the 'nub' and calls it "extra green space" in the photo caption.

No discussion of it in the body of the article, though.

[cowboyeagle05]

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2017/05/24/major-upgrade-to-dallas-iconic-fountain-place-to.html

Dallas Business Journal article from yesterday also shows the render with the 'nub' and calls it "extra green space" in the photo caption.

No discussion of it in the body of the article, though.

"which will add a new 10-story garage with four plaza-level restaurants at its base with building enhancements."

Last I looked at the retail space being added to the garage they had 2 retail spaces. I imagine the nub is coming but they won't start on it till after the garage is completed. It seems their primary concern is the parking garage and then a crew will build the retail nub. It looks like it's not really connected to the garage structurally anyway.

[kingpin]

6/4/17



Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr
Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

[kingpin]

9/24/17

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

Untitled by Around My City, on Flickr

[Tnexster]

That is a huge garage!

[muncien]

No kidding... just imagine if it had gone up on Field where originally proposed. If it's a necessary evil, I'm just glad it's 'tucked' back on Freeman st.

[willyk]

I am surprised we don't see any sign of the restaurant/retail. The competition in Uptown and VP will have lots of it. This corner of DT is dead.

[Tucy]

Is that the finished product?

[ArtVandelay]

Updated property flyer: http://ucr.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/ ... 091917.pdf

As we predicted way back in this thread - the cool "nub" fronting Ross is gone.

[texasstar]

The whole point of that flyer ^ is to lease up 8,000 ft of retail.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

Is that the finished product?

No. The final product will be clad in glass similar to the Fountain place building. Which IMO will be Overkill. Keep in mind the AMLI residential building is also planned to be clad in glass with with the same green tint as fountain place ....and the garage. Can we get some new color in there?

[dukemeredith]

The nub has its own flier. Perhaps it's a 'phase 2' for the garage, if they find sufficient interest.


http://ucr.com/property/ross-avenue-restaurant-space/

[dukemeredith]

Also, this was announced today as one of the four retail spaces in the garage.

https://www.dmagazine.com/food-drink/20 ... wn-dallas/

Opening "early 2018."

[dallaz]

I'm starting to get very impatient...

Is there an official groundbreaking for the residential tower?

[muncien]

The nub has its own flier. Perhaps it's a 'phase 2' for the garage, if they find sufficient interest.


http://ucr.com/property/ross-avenue-restaurant-space/

They have the retail sq ft in 'the nub' listed at 5500. I assume that means the upper couple of levels will be office? Looks like a cool location for an architecture firm or something similar. I assume that is what they are waiting on... plus perhaps more foot traffic from residential neighbor, and perhaps Headington properties. But, I agree... the nub was the most fun part of what is otherwise an utterly massive parking garage.

[cowboyeagle05]

I know ya'll won't like this location but it could be a good spot for a multi-level retailer like an Apple or an H&M. Apple would like it to cause its near things like Klyde Warren and the Perot in addition to being a highly visible spot near the freeway as well. Apple likes high-profile locations for signature stores and they would have access to parking and the Uptown crowd via the trolley. Do I think they are courting Apple or H&M, not at all. It's just a thought experiment since they may be waiting on the tenant for the final design to be solidified. Apple would want its own design and I'm sure Fountain Place would be perfectly fine with them putting one of their signature trophy store designs next to Fountain Place. Keeping in mind Main Street still, doesn't have any large retail draw despite Headington's and Neiman Marcus desire to make it so. Main Street has some cooking still to do.

[Tnexster]

The lobby remake is taking a long time but the work on the front face of the lobby is starting to take shape, if it looks like the back it will be a clear sheet of glass. The back side seems finished but the interior work has a long way to go since all of the old 80's marble is still in place.