Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

I think the Red/Blue station should be moved to Lot 016 with a nice new urban mixed use development redefining the south side of the convention center.

KbH is a money pit. I wish we would destroy it. Imagine if we had a Neighborhood where the convention center was. The city would would be better off.

^Limiting the approach to using the center is what makes it a money pit-- and it's the same sort of afflicted thinking that sinks Fair Park. How ironic that a big resurgence in Las Colinas will be punctuated by the music factory, hotel and convention center, while in Dallas the Municipal Auditorium and Naomi Burton Main Stage are barely a combined afterthought as performance venues.

On average, there should be a concert or event here at least three times a week.

What exactly is going on here? This thread is vague.

joshua.dodd wrote:What exactly is going on here? This thread is vague.

anything about the convention center...

http://www.fox4news.com/news/165436953-story

Exxotica lawsuit vs Dallas will be jury trial, judge rules

By: FOX4News.com Staff

UPDATED:JUN 24 2016 05:25PM CDT

Organizers for the Exxxotica expo say banning their event from the Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center is unconstitutional and violates their First Amendment rights.

A trial date has not yet been set.

Any update on the reconsideration or whatever? I guess one judge or jury said the city can no porn convention, but now the organizers are trying a different approach or something.... whatever.

It's still a deal, though, right?

I understand all the good folks do not want a porn convention in the namesake convention center of Kay Bailey Hutchinson.....

[/quote]
I understand all the good folks do not want a porn convention in the namesake convention center of Kay Bailey Hutchinson.....[/quote]

This was written on the wall the minute they banned them. Even the city attorneys warned them against this ban..Given that the city had OK'd these types of conventions in the past at KBh, and the contract was already in place, it was a no brainer for the palintiffs to sue..

I say we ask for KBH and the Dallas Citizen Council to pay the bill. They were the ones who pushed for the ban.

I would agree the KBH is a bit of a money pit in its current pattern of use. It just seems like such a wasted facility... If it's not being used for a convention why not roll out some fake grass and let it be an indoor park? seems like so many things could be done if the right incentives were in place.

This post from the DFW Economy threat reminded me of the Convention Center Hotel.

Cord1936 wrote:I receive a weekly newsletter from Allie Beth Allman Real Estate that nearly always has very interesting and topical statistics for the area. The following three are from last weeks March 9th newsletter:

DFW: DFW is the state’s biggest hotel market, reports Source Strategies, raking in slightly over $3 billion in revenue in 2017. Austin posted the highest overall occupancy rate of 75% (DFW 70%). The hotel with the most revenue per-available-room per-night was Dallas’ Ritz-Carlton. The 1,511-room Gaylord Texan Resort and Convention Center took in the most overall revenue of nearly $89.1 million. Other Dallas hotels in the top five were the Hilton Anatole and the Omni Dallas.

Anyone know how the big hotels in the area stack up on revenue?

joshua.dodd wrote:What exactly is going on here? This thread is vague.

Mostly a place to post crazy talk about getting rid of our convention center.

How is the Omni Hotel and restaurant annex doing?

Is it turning a profit? Has the city had to dip into the $30-50 million reserve fund to pay the mortgage? Did the hotel meet the goal to bring more of the biggest conventions to town?

How is the RevPar relative to other big convention/meeting hotels in North Texas?

Tucy are you still tracking any of this?

tamtagon wrote:How is the Omni Hotel and restaurant annex doing?

Is it turning a profit? Has the city had to dip into the $30-50 million reserve fund to pay the mortgage? Did the hotel meet the goal to bring more of the biggest conventions to town?

How is the RevPar relative to other big convention/meeting hotels in North Texas?

Tucy are you still tracking any of this?

Unfortunately, the state no longer posts the Hotel Tax information.

tamtagon wrote:^Limiting the approach to using the center is what makes it a money pit-- and it's the same sort of afflicted thinking that sinks Fair Park. How ironic that a big resurgence in Las Colinas will be punctuated by the music factory, hotel and convention center, while in Dallas the Municipal Auditorium and Naomi Burton Main Stage are barely a combined afterthought as performance venues.

On average, there should be a concert or event here at least three times a week.

The DMN had another story about Arlington Convention Center groomed for the esport events, and the Dallas Wings seem content playing at UTA. Is there some reason Dallas has not pursued the renovation of the Municipal Auditorium to host these events?

Yes. It’s called lack of advocacy and vision. That facility should be buzzing with activity.

Is it managed by the Convention and Visitors Bureau!

Tucy wrote:Unfortunately, the state no longer posts the Hotel Tax information.

It's still available via an open records request.

I was in Houston over the holiday and visited Discovery Green Saturday evening. I couldn't help but think how Dallas made such a huge mistake burying the convention center underground and ignoring the surface area around it. What a missed opportunity to bring some life to that end of downtown. The hotel helps some, but not nearly enough, imo.

vman wrote:I was in Houston over the holiday and visited Discovery Green Saturday evening. I couldn't help but think how Dallas made such a huge mistake burying the convention center underground and ignoring the surface area around it. What a missed opportunity to bring some life to that end of downtown. The hotel helps some, but not nearly enough, imo.

The convention center is the opposite of buried- I'm confused

I am assuming he means burying parking underground and not building a park at the surface level?

Dallas hands off management of convention center to private company
Dallas has delegated management of its major convention center to a private company.

On February 13, the Dallas City Council approved a 5-year contract with Spectra Venue Management to manage the Kay Bailey Hutchison Convention Center Dallas, hoping to improve the client experience and increase revenue.

The convention center will remain city-owned and subject to city oversight. Spectra would be responsible for day-to-day event management, client services, custodial services, security, parking, food and beverages, and other services.

The company was also recently given the keys to manage Fair Park.

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/city- ... -downtown/

Anyone know what to make of this? Good, bad, or neutral?

Spectra is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Comcast's sports division.

Probably a good thing.

The city of Dallas should be fixing our streets, keeping us safe, etc...which they are failing at. The more we can take away from them and leave to the professionals to run, the better.

I've always been underwhelmed by the outside of the Convention Center... It's poorly landscaped, poor signage, the back of the convention center is a flat out eyesore. It's not really all that pleasant to walk around or navigate compared to other centers I attend (and I've been to more than my fair share)… Many of the other centers I visit I'm generally greeted with lush landscaping, some sort of fountain feature, park settings for attendees, modern visible signage for both parking and exhibit halls. Sometimes the small details can leave a big impression for a visitor coming to the city!

Farmers Market, Fair Park and Convention Center -- all three have not approached potential under municipal management. I would guess this is not unusual in cities across the country, that when the gatekeepers of regulation manage those entities being regulated or monitored for compliance.... the business strategy is always flat and underperforming.

I would hope with Spectra managing the convention center, the facilities at Fair Park will be put to uses as they should be. I've always thought actively including Fair Park facilities into Convention Center events is a critical component to increase visitation to the city.

VisitDallas has been busy planning a parking garage and tourist guide center built over a highway instead of figuring out how to leverage the attributes of the city. Such a misguided focus should be a precipitating event of termination.

Can we just destroy this money pit already? It's such a waste of land and really acts more of a barrier than anything else.

Kelley USA wrote:I've always been underwhelmed by the outside of the Convention Center... It's poorly landscaped, poor signage, the back of the convention center is a flat out eyesore. It's not really all that pleasant to walk around or navigate compared to other centers I attend (and I've been to more than my fair share)… Many of the other centers I visit I'm generally greeted with lush landscaping, some sort of fountain feature, park settings for attendees, modern visible signage for both parking and exhibit halls. Sometimes the small details can leave a big impression for a visitor coming to the city!

Always thought that the city should expand Pioneer Park through the city-owned Lot C between it and the Omni. At least it would connect the Flying Horse lawn to City Hall Plaza and eventually make them one cohesive space.

Kelley USA wrote:I've always been underwhelmed by the outside of the Convention Center... It's poorly landscaped, poor signage, the back of the convention center is a flat out eyesore. It's not really all that pleasant to walk around or navigate compared to other centers I attend (and I've been to more than my fair share)… Many of the other centers I visit I'm generally greeted with lush landscaping, some sort of fountain feature, park settings for attendees, modern visible signage for both parking and exhibit halls. Sometimes the small details can leave a big impression for a visitor coming to the city!

This is a great point, and a great opportunity for Dallas. The long horn sculpture, waterfalls, and lush wooded areas around the cemetery provide a strong backbone to build off of. Building some well landscaped/lighted paths/plazas in and around this area without disrupting the greenery could go a long way. You already get tons of visitors and residents here, event or no event. Add in some vendor booths and you've got yourself a very welcoming area without too much expense. But, I'm sure the city would find a way to screw up such an effort... Hopefully the new management could make it happen.

Pioneer Park should have been expanded years ago, turned into a beer garden and picnic area. This is where Dallas needs one of those big public fountains, casual dining seating for as many as 1,000(?) people at a time.... Years ago when Phillip Jones was still fresh, data collection analysis revealed the biggest need was something for event goers to right outside the center; a hotel with dining annex was the result and shows a ridiculous avoidance of findings.

Ignored Municipal Auditorium represents a HUGE benefit potential for entertaining event goers on top of the flexibility of presentation space potential that identically ignored.

With AT&T doubling down on their slice of DTD is there potential for a new naming rights deal where KBH moves over for Dallas Discovery District Events Hall? ("Convention Center" is becoming very 1989 while "Food Hall" is 2019, if too much so.

But it's just an example of the potential to recast it as part of a neighborhood again, not just the mandatory city facility for conventioneers, you know).

Then Pioneer Park could be the sort of active festive entertainment and gathering space tamtagon is talkin' 'bout. And come to mean communication pioneers in the present day as well as frontiers of the historic Dallas.

I would love to see ATT as the founding sponsor for a vintage streetcar and pedestrian corridor running from Union Station to proposed Harwood Park to Old City Park and Griffin St under ConvCtr back to Union Station. There's a handful of other billion dollar entities/developers along this route to provide founding sponsorship.

ATT gets unrivaled pedestrian access scores, Texas Central gets a nice blanket on downtown amenities, Smart District gets the mobility boost for a big tenant, The City of Dallas gets an important quality of life increase, Convention Center instantly becomes more appealing. Such a no-brainer.

I've forgotten where in The Cedars Marc Cuban owns property, but his philanthropy would gain a cause with a circular like that.

lakewoodhobo wrote:Always thought that the city should expand Pioneer Park through the city-owned Lot C between it and the Omni. At least it would connect the Flying Horse lawn to City Hall Plaza and eventually make them one cohesive space.

Screen Shot 2019-02-14 at 10.20.01 AM.jpg

Yes, this would be great if they would make this happen. Also, they really need to permanently get rid of the small stretch of Marilla that is separating Pioneer Park to the Police Memorial.

I45Tex wrote:Then Pioneer Park could be the sort of active festive entertainment and gathering space tamtagon is talkin' 'bout.

It seems like this is sorta in line with the City's vision as well. I know last year they held the Aurora Art show in front of City Hall, and also hosted a brand new tree lighting ceremony in front of City Hall as well. Both of these were brand new events for the area.

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas ... 1535544804

...Mark Cuban, who also owns an NBA 2k esports team called Mavs Gaming, has called North Texas the biggest hotbed for esports outside of California. The region is also home to the largest stadium dedicated to esports in North America, the former Arlington Convention Center.

Is there something about the Municipal Auditorium the prohibits it from hosting esports events, even serving as a homebase for one of these teams? Consider the possibility of filling the entire convention center for a weekend building a gamers branded event like Comic-Con or Dragon-Con.

The CVB decision makers have doubled-down on an office and noshing visitor's space to be built into an extension of Klyde Warren Park over Woodall-Rodgers Freeway while ignoring and/or avoiding revenue generating potential like esports and WNBA to pay for Municipal Auditorium upgrades.

tamtagon wrote:Is there something about the Municipal Auditorium the prohibits it from hosting esports events, even serving as a homebase for one of these teams? Consider the possibility of filling the entire convention center for a weekend building a gamers branded event like Comic-Con or Dragon-Con.

Do we know if the Call of Duty tournament that took place a couple of years ago was held at Memorial Auditorium or somewhere else inside KBH Convention Center? If the city is still trying to upgrade that facility and find the right use for it, I don't see why a permanent e-sports or gaming tournament space isn't being considered.

I'm not sure if that type of event necessarily draws the same audience as Comic-Con or A-Kon, which was held at Fair Park this year, but I'm not an expert on that by any means.

Wow, you know that eSports has arrived as a legitimate sport when all the major venues eschew Downtown Dallas for the suburbs

tamtagon wrote:How is the Omni Hotel and restaurant annex doing?

Is it turning a profit? Has the city had to dip into the $30-50 million reserve fund to pay the mortgage? Did the hotel meet the goal to bring more of the biggest conventions to town?

How is the RevPar relative to other big convention/meeting hotels in North Texas?

Tucy are you still tracking any of this?

Calendar year 2019 operating revenues were $105,415,317, down from $118,090,038 in 2018 (down 10.7%).

The decrease in operating revenues was mostly due to a decrease in food and beverage revenue of $8,323,694, rooms revenue of $5,370,862, and offset by an increase in other sales and services of $1,019,835.

https://dallascityhall.com/departments/ ... t-2019.pdf

Convention Center masterplan - 5 alternatives

3C and 3D I like the best. It seems like they’re trying to keep the old Memorial Auditorium. Thoughts?

https://www.dallasccmasterplan.com/alternatives

Burn that abomination down plan should be added; KBHCC is a money pit.

Plus this city is too stupid to put it good use. We out here starving for convention business, but cancelling conventions that are deemed to risque? Ridiculous.

I say move the conventions to Fair Park. Use that to drive more development over there. And use that to maintain the structures there.

I do realize there's infighting right now among factions...Fair Park vs KBHCC...

But honestly, convention centers are kinda an outdated concept...

It's very 1970 of us to use this massive contiguous building to house events as the prime way to get tourism. There's better ways.

We don't need to devote that much prime real estate to a building that isn't put to good use 80% of the time and that isn't taxed.

3D is the best alternative if Dallas to chicken to burn it down.
But that $$ would be wasteful.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Burn that abomination down plan should be added; KBHCC is a money pit.

Plus this city is too stupid to put it good use. We out here starving for convention business, but cancelling conventions that are deemed to risque? Ridiculous.

I say move the conventions to Fair Park. Use that to drive more development over there. And use that to maintain the structures there.

I do realize there's infighting right now among factions...Fair Park vs KBHCC...

But honestly, convention centers are kinda an outdated concept...

It's very 1970 of us to use this massive contiguous building to house events as the prime way to get tourism. There's better ways.

We don't need to devote that much prime real estate to a building that isn't put to good use 80% of the time and that isn't taxed.

3D is the best alternative if Dallas to chicken to burn it down.
But that $$ would be wasteful.

I agree…but I don’t think Dallas is ready to tear it down just yet. That’s why 3D is my favorite. It’s gonna be expensive af…but it’s better than a barrier right?

dallaz wrote:Convention Center masterplan - 5 alternatives

3C and 3D I like the best. It seems like they’re trying to keep the old Memorial Auditorium. Thoughts?

https://www.dallasccmasterplan.com/alternatives

Both of those alternatives are described as meeting the recommendations, despite 3D having as little as 750,000 square feet of meeting space. That's at least 50% less than the center currently has, https://www.exhibitoronline.com/findit/ ... sp?ID=1965
so maybe tivo is on the same page as they are in terms of acknowledging diminishing demand.

If they go underground (3D), does that mean they can build on top of it?

3C seems reasonable enough. It likely won't be as expensive as 3D and it might help better connect the Cedars to Downtown, and I don't see it as that much of a wall.

I45Tex wrote:

dallaz wrote:Convention Center masterplan - 5 alternatives

3C and 3D I like the best. It seems like they’re trying to keep the old Memorial Auditorium. Thoughts?

https://www.dallasccmasterplan.com/alternatives

Both of those alternatives are described as meeting the recommendations, despite 3D having as little as 750,000 square feet of meeting space. That's at least 50% less than the center currently has, https://www.exhibitoronline.com/findit/ ... sp?ID=1965
so maybe tivo is on the same page as they are in terms of acknowledging diminishing demand.

They could be. I wonder why a teardown wasn’t an option…just to see what could possibly happen?

potatocoins wrote:If they go underground (3D), does that mean they can build on top of it?

3C seems reasonable enough. It likely won't be as expensive as 3D and it might help better connect the Cedars to Downtown, and I don't see it as that much of a wall.

That’s what I assumed. I’m not too sure though. The State Capitol has an underground extension. That’s the only thing I can think of that’s probably similar. It doesn’t have any structures on top…only landscaping.

The DCC is way overdue for major improvements but I have a lot of questions/thoughts that I hope they’re thinking through:
1) Should the final decision on the DCC alternative wait to see if the HSR actually happens?
2) On Alt 3D, has potential flooding been fully vetted since Exhibit halls are 50’ below grade?
3) For all Alts there was no mention of accommodating possible future DCC expansion. Future proofing these improvements seems important with ever changing convention business.
4) Are “program goals” of Alts listed somewhere? Some Alts say goals are not met. Hope the goals themselves are reasonable. If a through street is blocked is that so bad if it allows for a superior DCC option? The George R Brown convention center in Houston “blocks” through streets….
5) Some Alts list demo options but pictures don’t show locations.
6) Was a new DCC at a new location considered? Would undermine city owned Omni and finding right location would be challenging. More money to acquire land, but could be offset by selling existing DCC land later. Could maintain convention business during construction and ground up planning on new site could avoid numerous existing site “challenges”.
7) Alt 3D is my preference if future expansion can be accommodated. Since underground can expansion be under Centennial, etc?

Tear down doesn't work because the money they intend to use for this project is coming from the Hotel tax and the hotel industry I doubt is ready to accept taxing themselves to tear down the convention center. Its like using the gas tax to tear out highways altogether. That's a snake that will never eat its tail that easily.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Tear down doesn't work because the money they intend to use for this project is coming from the Hotel tax and the hotel industry I doubt is ready to accept taxing themselves to tear down the convention center. Its like using the gas tax to tear out highways altogether. That's a snake that will never eat its tail that easily.

I say just move it to Fair Park (FP) use what's there. Maybe build something small that fits the art deco theme in FP for more space.

But KBHCC needs to go. The city is better generating tax revenue then maintaining an obstruction

I'm glad every option preserves the arena, and I love the idea of isolating it.
3D & 3C create the potential for planting a massive, gorgeous green space connecting pioneer plaza to the deck park.

_____________________
Bringing this into the discussion because Alternative 3C lists 'covering future multimodal' and 'complicates HSR connection' as challenges.
3D and 3C are clearly the better options of the bunch, but if 3C robs this^ possibility from us then 3D is the way to go. Bury it.
3C would make the future multimodal station a ghost town, when it should be a hub of TOD.

Why is “preserving the arena” important? How often is it utilized? Seems like that location would be good for ancillary development..

mhainli wrote:Why is “preserving the arena” important? How often is it utilized? Seems like that location would be good for ancillary development..

I'm interested in preserving it for historical purposes. It's outlived being practical for its original use, but we can come up with something better than destroying yet another historical structure in a city notorious for that. We've done enough of that.

^^^The Black Academy of Arts and Letters is housed in the theater portion of the old Memorial Auditorium. If demolished, it will displace that organization. The architect (George Dahl) designed Fair Park’s Art Deco buildings, The National, Titche’s building, and many other buildings around Dallas.

I found this. It’s an old news story about the proposed expansion of the Auditorium. Also…shows what it looked like before the convention center addition.

https://youtu.be/er2z_Hvbfww

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Tear down doesn't work because the money they intend to use for this project is coming from the Hotel tax and the hotel industry I doubt is ready to accept taxing themselves to tear down the convention center. Its like using the gas tax to tear out highways altogether. That's a snake that will never eat its tail that easily.

I acknowledge that the hotel lobby wouldn't want to tear it down...but legally, do they have any grounds to dictate what a city does with hotel taxes? I don't think they don't. There's just political pressure.