East Dallas: Ross Avenue Corridor

[willyk]

There is enough happening along eastern Ross Ave to justify a thread. The development along Henderson, Fitzugh and Bennet is finally reaching Ross. The DISD properties are being sold. The Icon and Olympus are done and the Modera is well underway.

So here Is my question-- three retail projects are underway near Ross and Hall. Two are on the north side of Ross across the street from Little Woodrow's. Another is at the corner of Hall and 75 immediately north of the Kroger site. Does anyone know what is being developed at these sites?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

There is enough happening along eastern Ross Ave to justify a thread. The development along Henderson, Fitzugh and Bennet is finally reaching Ross. The DISD properties are being sold. The Icon and Olympus are done and the Modera is well underway.

So here Is my question-- three retail projects are underway near Ross and Hall. Two are on the north side of Ross across the street from Little Woodrow's. Another is at the corner of Hall and 75 immediately north of the Kroger site. Does anyone know what is being developed at these sites?

I'm not entirely sure. The Development across litterly Woodrow's looks like a strip mall.. I absolutely don't like it.

Last I was by there it looked like the foundation for a small building was underway and a big parking lot was being poured. What a let down. I hope I'm wrong.

[R1070]

Atleast they put the building in the front and parking in the rear though. Baby steps for Dallas. lol

[jrd1964]

On Ross just east of the Burger King and Waffle House, a new Raising Cane's is going up. Not sure when it will be ready/open; they have plywood and studs up now.

[CRE_Investor]

The building across from Little Woodrows is a relocation of the existing Credit Union of Texas that is currently down the street at Ross and Annex. Once this new, smaller, building is open their existing facility will be sold and redeveloped. It's definitely a net positive in my book.

[maconahey]

Speaking of Ross and Annex:

300 apartments planned for Ross at Annex

The East Dallas development boom is creeping toward Downtown with plans for a 300-unit apartment complex off Ross at Annex.

Austin-based Cypress Real Estate Advisors Inc. asked for a zoning change that would bring the entire 1.7-acre property into the same zone.

Cypress, the developer that’s taken over the Lake Highlands Town Center, wants to build a four-story apartment complex surrounding a parking garage. JHP is the architect, although no drawings are available yet.

http://lakewood.advocatemag.com/2017/01 ... oss-annex/

[Tivo_Kenevil]

On Ross just east of the Burger King and Waffle House, a new Raising Cane's is going up. Not sure when it will be ready/open; they have plywood and studs up now.

I saw that too. It will be years before Ross is a great pedestrian cooridor..If ever. The city seems to be okay with allowing fast food drive thru establishments all up and down Ross.

At least rasing canes is decent. They need better condiments though. Not a single hot sauce packet in that joint.

[ArtVandelay]

On Ross just east of the Burger King and Waffle House, a new Raising Cane's is going up. Not sure when it will be ready/open; they have plywood and studs up now.

I saw that too. It will be years before Ross is a great pedestrian cooridor..If ever. The city seems to be okay with allowing fast food drive thru establishments all up and down Ross.

At least rasing canes is decent. They need better condiments though. Not a single hot sauce packet in that joint.

Why doesn't the city require each new development to install pedestrian friendly infrastructure fronting Ross Ave? Seems like a no brainer. All in-fills should have new wide sidewalks, streetlights, landscaping treatments and benches/trash receptacles. Then the city can come in after the development cycle and fill in the rest.

[Tivo_Kenevil]

On Ross just east of the Burger King and Waffle House, a new Raising Cane's is going up. Not sure when it will be ready/open; they have plywood and studs up now.

I saw that too. It will be years before Ross is a great pedestrian cooridor..If ever. The city seems to be okay with allowing fast food drive thru establishments all up and down Ross.

At least rasing canes is decent. They need better condiments though. Not a single hot sauce packet in that joint.

Why doesn't the city require each new development to install pedestrian friendly infrastructure fronting Ross Ave? Seems like a no brainer. All in-fills should have new wide sidewalks, streetlights, landscaping treatments and benches/trash receptacles. Then the city can come in after the development cycle and fill in the rest.

I think that's the end goal or dream rather...They're already kicking out the car dealerships... But as per usual, Dallas currently has no plans with teeth in place that will steer Ross into a connection between DT and LG..With right Developments.

McDs , Burger King, Rasing Canes, sonic and even Starbucks all have Drive thrus..

If they're serious of making the transformation happen These type of establishments need to be Zoned out of Ross.

[willyk]

We will see more of this. Ross Avenue offers an opportunity for high traffic count, car oriented retail that Lower Greenville, Henderson and Deep Ellum do not. So we have to expect that these types of companies looking to serve those neighborhoods will have to flock to Ross.

That said, the demographics of the surrounding neighborhoods are improving with all of the new apartments and local restaurants. I don't want to begrudge the millennial crowd for wanting chicken tenders like the rest of us. But I am hoping that the fast food places, CVS and 7-Eleven are the initial outposts for higher-end retail investments to follow.

[tamtagon]

I do not understand why San Jacinto still has this Ross Avenue override.

[cowboyeagle05]

I do not understand why San Jacinto still has this Ross Avenue override.

This is the biggest ridiculous annoyance from the bygone era. Mr Mayor tear out that median!

[willyk]

I can't understand why it was ever put there at all-- what was it's, even obsolete, purpose?

[Hannibal Lecter]

The plan was (still is?) to make Ross and San Jacinto into a couplet.

No, this abomination still doesn't make sense. But that's why.

[The_Overdog]

They need to condemn that entire stretch of San Jacinto once it passes Routh. Whenever Central cut San Jacinto in half, they should have just ended it. Now that useless section of road has 4 bus stops within 1 block to serve a tire store.

[willyk]

Dallas builders bid to buy DISD headquarters properties east of downtown

Leon Capital Group won a bid to purchase the school headquarters buildings at Ross and Washington avenues just east of downtown.

The San Jacinto properties received high bids from townhouse builder Intown Homes, which has multiple projects in Dallas. And builder Centre Living Homes was the top bidder for one of the Ross corners now occupied by two small buildings.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2017/01/18/dallas-builders-bid-buy-disd-headquarters-properties-east-downtown

[willyk]

The next Uptown? Ross Avenue gets a remake on downtown Dallas’ near east side

The busy thoroughfare on downtown’s near east side is getting a major makeover with hundreds of new apartments, townhouses, shops and restaurants.

“I say the Ross corridor is Uptown lite,” said real estate broker Mike Turner. “It’s the gateway to the Arts District and seeing big changes.”

Real estate brokers say that prices on choice properties along Ross now top $40 a foot.

“Land speculation is out of the game,” said broker Newt Walker. “The only people buying over there are developers or someone who has a direct use for the property.”

Walker said fractured ownership of properties in the area makes it hard for developers to put together large tracts.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2016/05/12/the-next-uptown-ross-avenue-gets-a-remake-on-downtown-dallas-near-east-side

[willyk]

The Real History of Ross Ave.

Leviticus and Menthol Ross were direct descendants of our nation’s beloved flag-maker, Betsy Ross. Their grandson, Steve Ross, parlayed a New Jersey funeral home into the world’s biggest media and entertainment conglomerate -- Time Warner.

In 1903 the Ross brothers came to Dallas from France, where the family had been living as expatriates. They were trained as pharmacists. It was here, in a shabby shed at the back of the large Ross Family Estate on Poultry Row that the Ross brothers invented their famous cough drops.

http://www.dallasobserver.com/news/the-real-history-of-ross-ave-7147763

[joshua.dodd]

With the explosion of development along Ross Avenue, both in Downtown and East, I think it would be a good idea to build a trolley line along it. If not a trolley line, maybe in the future a subway that runs parallel with it.

[dfwcre8tive]

With the explosion of development along Ross Avenue, both in Downtown and East, I think it would be a good idea to build a trolley line along it. If not a trolley line, maybe in the future a subway that runs parallel with it.

Or just improve the bus service that exists. Nice bus stops (not a pole stuck in weeds/grass), higher frequency, and urban sidewalks may be a good start. Play on the Arts District connection and have different artists design each bus shelter.

bus.jpg

[DPatel304]

Perhaps the DLink can be expanded to incorporate Ross Ave and go all the way up to Lower Greenville and Henderson.

I've only taken a ride on the DLink once and that was two years ago, so I'm not sure how popular it is, but I think it would be an excellent way to fill in the gaps that rail/streetcar can't and also get people riding buses.

[dfwcre8tive]

Going back to the adopted Downtown Dallas 360 plan, Ross is envisioned to someday be a streetcar boulevard.

Dallas360_FinalAdopted 2_Page_1.jpg

Dallas360_FinalAdopted 2_Page_2.jpg

Dallas360_FinalAdopted 2_Page_3.jpg

Plan: https://dallascityhall.com/departments/ ... dopted.pdf

[joshua.dodd]

Excellent! I'm really impressed with that plan! It is excellently integrated. It's amazing how Downtown has transformed from a ghost town in the 90s to the life it has today, but this plan will truly bring life into Downtown.
How long do you suppose it will be until this is finally realized?

[eburress]

Excellent! I'm really impressed with that plan! It is excellently integrated. It's amazing how Downtown has transformed from a ghost town in the 90s to the life it has today, but this plan will truly bring life into Downtown.
How long do you suppose it will be until this is finally realized?

100 years.

Just kidding. This wasn't an actual "plan" but more of a concept piece of what could be...an aspirational view of how Ross Ave could someday be if this or that happened. There aren't any actual plans for making these changes.

[dfwcre8tive]

Excellent! I'm really impressed with that plan! It is excellently integrated. It's amazing how Downtown has transformed from a ghost town in the 90s to the life it has today, but this plan will truly bring life into Downtown.
How long do you suppose it will be until this is finally realized?

100 years.

Just kidding. This wasn't an actual "plan" but more of a concept piece of what could be...an aspirational view of how Ross Ave could someday be if this or that happened. There aren't any actual plans for making these changes.

Correct. It's more of a recommendation to guide future development, and not a guideline/plan. Though, aspects of the 360 plan are slowly being integrated into other projects downtown.

[dfwcre8tive]

The DISD Headquarters building will be cleared away soon.

In a city that can't see a future in its past, developer will tear down Dallas ISD's 63-year-old HQ
https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/04/17/city-see-future-past-developer-will-tear-dallas-isds-63-year-old-hq

...

Preservationists and city officials are rightfully saddened and outraged by the district's doings: The Dallas City Council's Philip Kingston, who reps that stretch of Ross, calls the pending razing "criminal" and wants at least the facade preserved "at the bare minimum."

"The elected officials on the DISD board who are supposed to be acting in the public interest are either ignorant or disrespectful of the need to preserve our architectural heritage," he said Monday. "It's flabbergasting."

But that's not the only reason he's furious: Kingston and DISD trustee Miguel Solis wrote in these very pages back in December that they'd hoped the district would sell the HQ, as well as other surplus properties, to a developer that would would bring affordable housing to Ross Avenue and elsewhere. They pitched a plan whereby the city and district would collaborate on requiring "neighborhood supportive retail and mixed-income housing likely to attract more families to areas they have historically been boxed out of."

That didn't happen. Instead the district sold off the properties piecemeal without ever talking to its alleged partner at 1500 Marilla about how it might be in everyone's best interest to adaptively reuse some of the structure and figure out how to bring back the very people the district seems hellbent on chasing off. So, in the end, we'll get what we keep getting: market-rate apartments full of transient tenants who don't have kids in the district and skin in the game.

...

[dukemeredith]

Sad news. I was excited to see what could come of that building.

[joshua.dodd]

A travesty

[cowboyeagle05]

This is definitely developers saying to the DISD we aren't interested if you don't file the demo permit yourself and def no to the affordable housing bs. Developers want to be shielded from the PR so they requested the DISD do it. Course it could backfire if enough people complain the DISD could pull the request if public pressure mounts high enough. I wonder if Trammel Crow company is the one in play here? They would have a bad taste in their mouths over the Sams Club debacle and they have obviously been bullish on Ross Avenue.

[CRE_Investor]

It's Leon Capital Group. This is going to be another 4-5 story multifamily project with some token ground floor retail.

[cowboyeagle05]

Well since everything new they have been building along Ross looks about as inviting as a trip to the dentist for a root canal I don't expect to be surprised. Sounds like we will get some of the same bland toast apartments.

[tanzoak]

Can we stop with this, though.. "market-rate apartments full of transient tenants"

Like, I'm not a delinquent for not owning residential real estate.

[willyk]

Well since everything new they have been building along Ross looks about as inviting as a trip to the dentist for a root canal I don't expect to be surprised. Sounds like we will get some of the same bland toast apartments.

Uptown started out the exact same way. It's not reasonable to expect investors to support a 20 story tower in a neighborhood with no amenities and no record of capital appreciation.

If this 4-5 story stuff works, there is a chance that the towers will follow. But there is enough land in East Dallas to support this type of development for a long while, so I have doubts.

I am ok with these projects. I am looking forward to seeing them turn the Ross/75/Fitzhugh triangle into one coherent neighborhood.

[CRE_Investor]

As a resident who lives off of Ross, what the area needs more than anything is a comprehensive overlay district to guide future development. The section of Ross between I-345 and Greenville Ave spreads across two council districts and has varying zoning up and down the street. For example, everyone heard about the "no more automotive businesses on Ross" through the Hinga Automotive saga, but that only applies to the stretch of road between downtown and either Haskell or Peak. Northeast of there you can, and still do, have car lots that based on my observation can only be fronts for some other kind of activity. I have never seen anyone buying a car there, and they cars are packed in so tight and driveways blocked it would take a serious effort to even get a car off the lot for a test drive. The two new 7-11s, including one across the street from an existing 7-11, are a perfect example of development opposed by the local councilman, but they were powerless to stop or even modify it because they complied with current zoning. If the city wants to do anything pro-active with Ross, it needs to start with a new planned development district similar to uptown, victory, or countless others across the city to layout clear rules and expectations for future development.

I don't think stick built apartments are a bad thing, and certainly not when they are replacing vacant land or undesirable business uses, but 3,000 apartment units on a car-centric major thoroughfare does not make a neighborhood. My dream scenario would see a rubber tire street car (not a bus, the route has to be fixed and permanent to truly spur development) run from Greenville Ave down to the arts district or even the west end. If you could combine that with functional sidewalks there would be tons of opportunities for quality development that would combine with Bryan Place, Henderson, and Greenville to make a really cool area in near east Dallas.

[tanzoak]

Well since everything new they have been building along Ross looks about as inviting as a trip to the dentist for a root canal I don't expect to be surprised. Sounds like we will get some of the same bland toast apartments.

While this isn't the most inspiring streetscape I've ever seen, Dallas can (and typically does) a hell of a lot worse. Essentially lot-line development with doors and balconies facing the street? I'll take it!

Is it high-end design? Well, no, but this also isn't a high-end area. And honestly, part of what makes Dallas so attractive and economically strong is the fact that it builds plenty of new housing for moderate-income people. There's fancy towers in uptown, sure, but there's also this.

Also, put in some bike lanes/widen the sidewalks and let the trees mature a little, and it'll look even better.

[tanzoak]

a rubber tire street car (not a bus, the route has to be fixed and permanent to truly spur development) run from Greenville Ave down to the arts district or even the west end. If you could combine that with functional sidewalks there would be tons of opportunities for quality development that would combine with Bryan Place, Henderson, and Greenville to make a really cool area in near east Dallas.

Do you mean a trolleybus?


Slight tangent, but it's funny to me that streetcars are seen to help spur development due to their permanence, when one of the most notable historical aspects of them was that they all got torn out! I think they do help drive development, but mostly because rail can be seen as high-class (especially cute trolleys), while buses are seen as exclusively for poors.

[CRE_Investor]

a rubber tire street car (not a bus, the route has to be fixed and permanent to truly spur development) run from Greenville Ave down to the arts district or even the west end. If you could combine that with functional sidewalks there would be tons of opportunities for quality development that would combine with Bryan Place, Henderson, and Greenville to make a really cool area in near east Dallas.

Do you mean a trolleybus?


Slight tangent, but it's funny to me that streetcars are seen to help spur development due to their permanence, when one of the most notable historical aspects of them was that they all got torn out! I think they do help drive development, but mostly because rail can be seen as high-class (especially cute trolleys), while buses are seen as exclusively for poors.

Yes something like that, but preferably not from the 1980s styling department. I only specified rubber tire because they are so much cheaper and easier to build than fixed rail. You're right that, fair or not, in sunbelt cities buses are viewed as "lower class" which is one of the reasons I don't think the D-link will ever be successful. How often have you heard someone in Dallas say "lets catch the bus" versus "let's hop on the trolley" to go to dinner or grab drinks."

[tanzoak]

Yes something like that, but preferably not from the 1980s styling department. I only specified rubber tire because they are so much cheaper and easier to build than fixed rail.

I don't think that a trolleybus has the same cachet as rail, though, if that's what we're trying to capture. Most of the buses in core San Francisco are trolleys, and no one thinks of them as anything other than a normal bus. Obviously SF and Dallas contexts are different, but honestly I think the presence of the overhead wires would make them less preferred to develop near, not more.

I could see it maybe if BRT was done, but I have little confidence that that's a possibility.

[DPatel304]

I think if the DLink looked something like this, or hell, make it a double decker one with an open roof. Dallas has a beautiful skyline, so why not let bus riders appreciate it more. I think buses can work in Dallas, but DART just needs to be more creative than slapping a flashy DLink logo on a regular bus.

The only thing about a double decker bus, is people might confuse it for an actual tour bus that most cities have.

But yes, I totally agree about making Ross Ave more pedestrian friendly. It's a very wide street, so I would hope there is room for bike lanes, more trees, and some sort of bus.

[rantanamo]

Wouldn't mind seeing Ross east of downtown get a road diet. While its crowded, its not nearly as bad as Gaston during rush hour. No reason it couldn't get landscaped with wider sidewalks, give the current setbacks of most properties and even the new ones. As long as either a wide median with turn lanes(landscaped) or the suicide lane stays, Ross would be fine since it simply runs into the Lg area. Its not really a major link. A D-link, like express between the Arts District in lower Greenville would probably be very popular. Wrap it with a Lower Greenville D-link logo and the shame goes away.

[dfwcre8tive]

a rubber tire street car (not a bus, the route has to be fixed and permanent to truly spur development) run from Greenville Ave down to the arts district or even the west end. If you could combine that with functional sidewalks there would be tons of opportunities for quality development that would combine with Bryan Place, Henderson, and Greenville to make a really cool area in near east Dallas.

Do you mean a trolleybus?


Slight tangent, but it's funny to me that streetcars are seen to help spur development due to their permanence, when one of the most notable historical aspects of them was that they all got torn out! I think they do help drive development, but mostly because rail can be seen as high-class (especially cute trolleys), while buses are seen as exclusively for poors.

Yes something like that, but preferably not from the 1980s styling department. I only specified rubber tire because they are so much cheaper and easier to build than fixed rail. You're right that, fair or not, in sunbelt cities buses are viewed as "lower class" which is one of the reasons I don't think the D-link will ever be successful. How often have you heard someone in Dallas say "lets catch the bus" versus "let's hop on the trolley" to go to dinner or grab drinks."

The trolleybus in my neighborhood is modern, silent, and clean... but they are preferred because they climb the hills better. There's also no stigma for riding the bus in Seattle.



With overhead wires, this is what the street intersections look like (it was challenging when they added a separate wire for streetcars to this area).



DART's buses are modern and comfortable. Perhaps they should create a few priority corridors and a category of service (with enhanced routes and stations similar to BRT) that lure people to try it.

[ArtVandelay]

The biggest problem with DART is the headways are too long on bus and rail.

[cowboyeagle05]

Well since everything new they have been building along Ross looks about as inviting as a trip to the dentist for a root canal I don't expect to be surprised. Sounds like we will get some of the same bland toast apartments.

Uptown started out the exact same way. It's not reasonable to expect investors to support a 20 story tower in a neighborhood with no amenities and no record of capital appreciation.

If this 4-5 story stuff works, there is a chance that the towers will follow. But there is enough land in East Dallas to support this type of development for a long while, so I have doubts.

I am ok with these projects. I am looking forward to seeing them turn the Ross/75/Fitzhugh triangle into one coherent neighborhood.

You miss understood my point towers are not what I am after. In fact, the scale of 4-5 is fine for Ross. I would be fine with even two story stuff that is more urban city configured rather than suburban drive-thrus. My problem is how the building interacts with the street aka the various levels of public space. The interaction between both the public and the private. The way retail space is being created to serve the area, sidewalks, road structure, crosswalks, street trees, front door stoops, the potential for strategic transportation positioning etc. Many may say those things are the cities fault but they are not solely in the lap of the city. Developers have a big impact on shaping the policy that will govern them. Just as easily as they can forget to pay attention to those things they can build better solutions that make their own developments flourish rather than be just another flash in the pan development.

Most of these new developments are throwing things up fast along Ross and the city isn't paying much attention either cause they are happy to get development. You have a bad mismatch of design choices that will plague the district for decades. Don't confuse my point as being about the style of architecture either. I am not looking for West Village stucco old downtown look or chic modern steel and glass. I am referring to a conscience effort to not just build a residential castle throw up a sidewalk and call it progressive urban live, work play. People also confuse my point as requiring that every building have ground floor retail and that's not what I mean either.

[DPatel304]

After a somewhat tumultuous tenure, Little Woodrow's, the Houston import, is closing its branch in Dallas. Owner Danny Evans confirmed that the closure would be effective immediately.

The bar opened in September 2016 in a renovated vintage building on Ross Avenue with craft beer, a killer patio, and a good reputation from Houston. But the bar's fortunes were undermined by a couple of unfortunate incidents, as well as a Ross Avenue not yet fully developed.

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... e-closure/

Very surprised at this news. I know this area is still gentrifying, so business would be slow to begin with, but I figured Little Woodrows knew what they were in for, and were enough of an established brand to last the slower years and reap the benefits in a few years time.

[cowboyeagle05]

It is also possible they were run badly. You see it all the time ownership and/or management blames a neighborhood for their failure to find their customer. Many bar/restaurants commonly do this when they fail. There are very few news articles where the ownership/management says yeah we didn't really know what we were doing but we hoped a logo and selling drinks would grab customers for us. What marketing did they do beyond the bad PR they got for the tattoo fiasco. Did they spend enough on marketing?

[Tivo_Kenevil]

It is also possible they were run badly. You see it all the time ownership and/or management blames a neighborhood for their failure to find their customer. Many bar/restaurants commonly do this when they fail. There are very few news articles where the ownership/management says yeah we didn't really know what we were doing but we hoped a logo and selling drinks would grab customers for us. What marketing did they do beyond the bad PR they got for the tattoo fiasco. Did they spend enough on marketing?

I went once. It sucked. End of story

[CRE_Investor]

That whole center is about to be in even more trouble. I don't see any way the specialty grass fed beef meat market and high end/organic liquor store make it either. The Woodrow's space has a very unique layout with the interior space wrapping around the patio effectively cutting off the east side from the main area which will make re-leasing interesting. I could see that east room being great for private event/private dining if the space is re-leased to a higher end restaurant, but it's not ideal for regular service.

[gshelton91]

I went once -- was really excited to have a good sports bar -- the food was not that good. ordered chips and Salsa got Pace -- that was probably the best thing we ordered.

[tamtagon]

... ordered chips and Salsa got Pace

haha

Outside of border states, that's to be expected... the salsa served at most of the "Mexican" restaurants in my neck of the woods taste the same, lame.

In Texas, there is no excuse for bad salsa.

[Thymant]

Crane has been up and construction commenced on Trammel Crow Residential's new Ross Ave Apartments about a couple months ago (sorry about the picture quality)






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