Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

This project was mentioned in the DMN article on the Klyde Warren KDC building and it sounded like it was still moving forward.

R1070 wrote:This project was mentioned in the DMN article on the Klyde Warren KDC building and it sounded like it was still moving forward.

The original DMN KDC article from 2020 mentions Central Market: High-rise overlooking Klyde Warren Park would be Uptown Dallas’ tallest office

Last week's DMN article on groundbreaking does not: 30-story Uptown Dallas tower set to start at midyear

They should just build an H-E-B Super Store on this spot and be done with it. It'd do massive business in the middle of the city 24/7/365.

Agreed, I'd be there at least once a day.

rono3849 wrote:They should just build an H-E-B Super Store on this spot and be done with it. It'd do massive business in the middle of the city 24/7/365.

Totally agree. No matter how methodological a developer is, it simply does not take 8 or more years to get a development of this size to fruition. I have said forever this project will not happen. I can almost guarantee that one year from now folks will be on here inquiring as to when this project will be starting. In the meantime, uptown sits with a big abandoned site in a prime area that zaps energy from the area surrounding it. Central market did the same thing on Lemmon Avenue. They are horrible property owners.

H-E-B owns a lot of land in Dallas that they've just sat on for a number of years. They have so much money that it's surprising that they have never decided to crack the D/FW market. With Kroger & Albertson's merger, there will have to be a number of stores sold off due to SEC regulations. It will be interesting to see if H-E-B makes its move in the city inside of LBJ.

rono3849 wrote:They should just build an H-E-B Super Store on this spot and be done with it. It'd do massive business in the middle of the city 24/7/365.

I think it was a mistake for the developer/HEB a couple years ago to abandon the original CM w/office for CM w/apartments. Whatever softness there was in the office market would be more than offset by the uniqueness of having a CM on site. No competition for this in DFW (along with a great location). No doubt the office space would fill up and payoff greater than residential..

I can't find this project listed on KDC's website under either "active projects" or "available development sites".

Tucy wrote:I can't find this project listed on KDC's website under either "active projects" or "available development sites".

Same. I was trying to find something earlier last week, couldn’t find a single update/website.

I think this project is DOA now. HEB owns the land, so they're known to just sit on real estate for years. I suspect this one is now in their deep freezer. They waited way too long and the interest rates have put an end to it.

rono3849 wrote:I think this project is DOA now. HEB owns the land, so they're known to just sit on real estate for years. I suspect this one is now in their deep freezer. They waited way too long and the interest rates have put an end to it.

Yeah. I’m starting to feel the same way. It has been 7 years or so since HEB bought that site.

Sigh….

This was by far my favorite project. 800 units and it tied in with the West Village too. It really would’ve boosted the residential density and pedestrian activity.


Edit: I found this. This is about it

“KDC is also underway on a mixed-use development anchored by a Central Market grocery store at McKinney and Lemmon in Uptown. The project will be 1.7 million square feet and estimated to cost $295 million. It will feature a 25-story tower with three levels of office and 23 levels of multifamily.”

It is from the Parkside Uptown announcement

https://www.wfaa.com/amp/article/money/ ... 9755d84383

So, maybe it is still alive after all…but the progress is soooooooooooo slow.

dallaz wrote:

rono3849 wrote:I think this project is DOA now. HEB owns the land, so they're known to just sit on real estate for years. I suspect this one is now in their deep freezer. They waited way too long and the interest rates have put an end to it.

Yeah. I’m starting to feel the same way. It has been 7 years or so since HEB bought that site.

Sigh….

This was by far my favorite project. 800 units and it tied in with the West Village too. It really would’ve boosted the residential density and pedestrian activity.


Edit: I found this. This is about it

“KDC is also underway on a mixed-use development anchored by a Central Market grocery store at McKinney and Lemmon in Uptown. The project will be 1.7 million square feet and estimated to cost $295 million. It will feature a 25-story tower with three levels of office and 23 levels of multifamily.”

It is from the Parkside Uptown announcement

https://www.wfaa.com/amp/article/money/ ... 9755d84383

So, maybe it is still alive after all…but the progress is soooooooooooo slow.

I would put zero weight on that quote from wfaa. Props to them for being aware of this other project by the same company, but their referencing it means nothing as to the current status.

FWIW, HEB did not buy the land. They bought the building. A different party owns the land and HEB presumably has a long-term lease on the land. Depending on the terms of the land-lease, the landlord may have some influence on the future development.

Tucy wrote:

dallaz wrote:

rono3849 wrote:I think this project is DOA now. HEB owns the land, so they're known to just sit on real estate for years. I suspect this one is now in their deep freezer. They waited way too long and the interest rates have put an end to it.

Yeah. I’m starting to feel the same way. It has been 7 years or so since HEB bought that site.

Sigh….

This was by far my favorite project. 800 units and it tied in with the West Village too. It really would’ve boosted the residential density and pedestrian activity.


Edit: I found this. This is about it

“KDC is also underway on a mixed-use development anchored by a Central Market grocery store at McKinney and Lemmon in Uptown. The project will be 1.7 million square feet and estimated to cost $295 million. It will feature a 25-story tower with three levels of office and 23 levels of multifamily.”

It is from the Parkside Uptown announcement

https://www.wfaa.com/amp/article/money/ ... 9755d84383

So, maybe it is still alive after all…but the progress is soooooooooooo slow.

I would put zero weight on that quote from wfaa. Props to them for being aware of this other project by the same company, but their referencing it means nothing as to the current status.

FWIW, HEB did not buy the land. They bought the building. A different party owns the land and HEB presumably has a long-term lease on the land. Depending on the terms of the land-lease, the landlord may have some influence on the future development.

Thanks for that info! Just tryna holdout hope…but if they don’t move forward, at least demo the building or something. It’s kinda an eyesore considering the surrounding area.

Also…I wouldn’t be surprised if the DMN says this project is about to start and then it doesn’t. I think we’ve seen that quite a few times

dallaz wrote:

Tucy wrote:

dallaz wrote:Yeah. I’m starting to feel the same way. It has been 7 years or so since HEB bought that site.

Sigh….

This was by far my favorite project. 800 units and it tied in with the West Village too. It really would’ve boosted the residential density and pedestrian activity.


Edit: I found this. This is about it

“KDC is also underway on a mixed-use development anchored by a Central Market grocery store at McKinney and Lemmon in Uptown. The project will be 1.7 million square feet and estimated to cost $295 million. It will feature a 25-story tower with three levels of office and 23 levels of multifamily.”

It is from the Parkside Uptown announcement

https://www.wfaa.com/amp/article/money/ ... 9755d84383

So, maybe it is still alive after all…but the progress is soooooooooooo slow.

I would put zero weight on that quote from wfaa. Props to them for being aware of this other project by the same company, but their referencing it means nothing as to the current status.

FWIW, HEB did not buy the land. They bought the building. A different party owns the land and HEB presumably has a long-term lease on the land. Depending on the terms of the land-lease, the landlord may have some influence on the future development.

Thanks for that info! Just tryna holdout hope…but if they don’t move forward, at least demo the building or something. It’s kinda an eyesore considering the surrounding area.

Also…I wouldn’t be surprised if the DMN says this project is about to start and then it doesn’t. I think we’ve seen that quite a few times

Indeed. Steve Brown gets himself a little too excited. I believe this one was announced to be breaking ground April 15 … 2022

Told ya so

It's amazing that they are able to buy an urban grocery store in one of the most dense parts of the city, shut it down, and just sit on the land for 7 years. I'm not sure what the city could do to change that behavior - it's their prerogative to pay those carry costs to preserve optionality - but definitely a net negative for residents, taxpayers, etc. as almost anything would be better than the current land use. Probably some sort of land tax regime would correct this, but absent that complete overhaul to the taxing system perhaps the city could find other tools to encourage development in the urban core, as opposed to land banking. Admittedly this seems like a larger problem across the CBD (i.e. developers sitting on land), but this one feels particularly egregious given it was previously put to a productive use (grocery) and should be prime real estate for resi development in a tight resi market.

Benjamin wrote:It's amazing that they are able to buy an urban grocery store in one of the most dense parts of the city, shut it down, and just sit on the land for 7 years. I'm not sure what the city could do to change that behavior - it's their prerogative to pay those carry costs to preserve optionality - but definitely a net negative for residents, taxpayers, etc. as almost anything would be better than the current land use. Probably some sort of land tax regime would correct this, but absent that complete overhaul to the taxing system perhaps the city could find other tools to encourage development in the urban core, as opposed to land banking. Admittedly this seems like a larger problem across the CBD (i.e. developers sitting on land), but this one feels particularly egregious given it was previously put to a productive use (grocery) and should be prime real estate for resi development in a tight resi market.

It's likely the exact reason they bought it, to keep completion out

A property owner cannot be forced to develop their own land. If they could, there would not be giant spans of surface parking in downtown Dallas.

What are your thoughts on the Medallion Center Target which stayed open even after the Super Target right up the road was built. The rumor has been that Target kept that store open to discourage WalMart from swooping in. Eventually, WalMart got built at that intersection and now all three seem to be doing fine.

Benjamin wrote:It's amazing that they are able to buy an urban grocery store in one of the most dense parts of the city, shut it down, and just sit on the land for 7 years. I'm not sure what the city could do to change that behavior - it's their prerogative to pay those carry costs to preserve optionality - but definitely a net negative for residents, taxpayers, etc. as almost anything would be better than the current land use. Probably some sort of land tax regime would correct this, but absent that complete overhaul to the taxing system perhaps the city could find other tools to encourage development in the urban core, as opposed to land banking. Admittedly this seems like a larger problem across the CBD (i.e. developers sitting on land), but this one feels particularly egregious given it was previously put to a productive use (grocery) and should be prime real estate for resi development in a tight resi market.

This is very common developer practice in Dallas. Buy a huge swath of land, shut everything down, or scrape it clean, and then sit on it. For example, central market’s other big lot on Lemmon; several blocks of Maple Avenue that used to be a viable neighborhood, but is now a chain link fenced wasteland; the Golds gym block on McKinney Avenue, and the list goes on and on.

I really think that HEB had intended to build on the McKinney @ Lemmon site, but the KDC people got too cute and they let their window of opportunity pass them by. Now they can't build anything to the scale they wanted due to the financing overhead. I could see HEB scale it back even more and put a big store and smaller tower adjacent to it. They could leave an area of the site unused for a potential bigger tower to be added later. That's just a total guess on my part.

I'm not proposing that any private party be compelled to do something of course, but you'd think that the city could create clever incentives that push development in the right direction and disincentive this type of thing in key parts of the city. Again some semblance of a land tax would probably be the cleanest, most market-friendly approach but that's a big overhaul that's not in the cards.

Benjamin wrote:I'm not proposing that any private party be compelled to do something of course, but you'd think that the city could create clever incentives that push development in the right direction and disincentive this type of thing in key parts of the city. Again some semblance of a land tax would probably be the cleanest, most market-friendly approach but that's a big overhaul that's not in the cards.

HEB is a very deliberate company. They have their own inner planning and they have been highly successful. I don't know if they can be incentivized to do anything by any local government.

"Bueller..... Bueller..... Bueller"

Anything on this sad dead giant lot?

I walked by it yesterday.

Sad... post-apocalyptical.

If The Walking Dead was still in production, It would make a great backdrop.

This would've gave the West Village a very much needed boost with Central Market acting as a major anchor store for the area. The additional residential units would've been nice too. Out of ALL the projects that are U/C or planned, this is the one that I wanted to happen the most. Now, it is just an eyesore.

It's the new Beck, left by the developer to rot.

I don’t get it. Always thought this development had a better chance of success than the myriad of other proposals in the area. Great location and demographics for a CM. Also, whether a companion apartment tower or the original office proposal, there would be nothing in DFW with an attached mega grocery store like this. Would imagine rents for the apartment/office would be sky high…

mhainli wrote:I don’t get it. Always thought this development had a better chance of success than the myriad of other proposals in the area. Great location and demographics for a CM. Also, whether a companion apartment tower or the original office proposal, there would be nothing in DFW with an attached mega grocery store like this. Would imagine rents for the apartment/office would be sky high…

Like so many developments, the financing situation on these new developments are in flux with the rapid increase in interest rates. These folks let this development stretch out way too long and cost them the opportunity to move dirt at McKinney and Lemmon. HEB won't move forward unless the set up is exactly want they want it to be.

rono3849 wrote:

mhainli wrote:I don’t get it. Always thought this development had a better chance of success than the myriad of other proposals in the area. Great location and demographics for a CM. Also, whether a companion apartment tower or the original office proposal, there would be nothing in DFW with an attached mega grocery store like this. Would imagine rents for the apartment/office would be sky high…

Like so many developments, the financing situation on these new developments are in flux with the rapid increase in interest rates. These folks let this development stretch out way too long and cost them the opportunity to move dirt at McKinney and Lemmon. HEB won't move forward unless the set up is exactly want they want it to be.

That makes sense but it’s really too bad for HEB. No guarantee that the market or interest rates will return to 2021 levels. Perhaps part of the delay was the decision to change from an office tower to apartments. This seemed odd at the time. I know generally the office market was getting worse and rental market better but surely there wasn’t a doubt they could lease the office tower up quickly? Like mentioned above, they would be the only one in town attached to a CM…

While they wait for better market conditions they could build the one in the Bishop Arts. Just saying...

MC_ScattCat wrote:While they wait for better market conditions they could build the one in the Bishop Arts. Just saying...

I think at this point, H-E-B is dedicating all of its resources toward its suburban flagship stores and Joe V's Smart Shops in Dallas proper.

And frankly, I'm ok with that. They need to focus on achieving enough market share and critical mass to compete with Kroger / Albertsons / Walmart.

Maybe they could make it a spot for Food Trucks. Several big cities have parking lots for Food Trucks to congregate together and the parking lot on McKinney at Lemmon would be perfect for the community.

True facts

rono3849 wrote:Maybe they could make it a spot for Food Trucks. Several big cities have parking lots for Food Trucks to congregate together and the parking lot on McKinney at Lemmon would be perfect for the community.

Regrettably, liability issues would likely prevent this.

Re open the store shell as a haunted house for Halloween then use it for Christmas trees and decorations. This has become a joke for what should be a very urban part of town and is a detriment to the whole area around it.

Meow Wolf could've even temporarily opened here and been a hit.

I know where we could house some of the homeless population haha

I walked by this on Thursday, there was someone standing there, singular person, at the front entrance doing some kind of work, the glass on the front entrance has been entirely taken out and was open, and there was a large roll-off dumpster in the parking lot.

thelivingworld wrote:I walked by this on Thursday, there was someone standing there, singular person, at the front entrance doing some kind of work, the glass on the front entrance has been entirely taken out and was open, and there was a large roll-off dumpster in the parking lot.

A friend of a friend said that she saw insulation and other parts being pulled out of the back.

An empty building like this must be a huge liability…I’m surprised it’s still standing.

This lot needs to be bulldozed if nothing else.

Gods....I want to be optimistic but this is looking like another Valley View Mall situation. Great location but for whatever reason no development. The building will crumble until it is demolished. Then another big empty lot.

It’s only been 8 years since they announced, gotta give them more time, lol.

I heard a rumor that HEB is considering scraping the high rises for a regular Central Market here. Anyone else heard rumblings like this?

dzh wrote:I heard a rumor that HEB is considering scraping the high rises for a regular Central Market here. Anyone else heard rumblings like this?

This is what I think will ultimately happen here. The market for their office tower and residential tower has deteriorated due to competition breaking ground in the area, coupled by increasing interest rates. HEB let this thing sit on the shelf way too long and that's on them. I know they have more money than they know what to do with it, but they really mishandled this opportunity. The Uptown/Oaklawn area would support a Central Market for sure, so why not just build a great Central Market and leave space in an adjacent parking lot for a tower in the future? That would make the most sense.

If they do move forward with converting the existing building into an HEB then we can count on never seeing an urban development on this site in our lifetime.

dzh wrote:I heard a rumor that HEB is considering scraping the high rises for a regular Central Market here.

Why not? A grocery store with a sea of parking would fit right in next to CVS, QuikTrip and Men's Wearhouse. I would still walk to CM there, but it truly would be just another missed opportunity for WV to take the next step.

LongonBigD wrote:

dzh wrote:I heard a rumor that HEB is considering scraping the high rises for a regular Central Market here.

Why not? A grocery store with a sea of parking would fit right in next to CVS, QuikTrip and Men's Wearhouse. I would still walk to CM there, but it truly would be just another missed opportunity for WV to take the next step.

It's going to really be infuriating if HEB does this. They could have just built a regular store there eight years ago instead of letting this eyesore sit idle for almost a decade!

rono3849 wrote:

dzh wrote:I heard a rumor that HEB is considering scraping the high rises for a regular Central Market here. Anyone else heard rumblings like this?

This is what I think will ultimately happen here. The market for their office tower and residential tower has deteriorated due to competition breaking ground in the area, coupled by increasing interest rates. HEB let this thing sit on the shelf way too long and that's on them. I know they have more money than they know what to do with it, but they really mishandled this opportunity. The Uptown/Oaklawn area would support a Central Market for sure, so why not just build a great Central Market and leave space in an adjacent parking lot for a tower in the future? That would make the most sense.

I know we’ve discussed this topic ad nauseam, but I still think there would be absolute success with either the original office tower proposal or recent residential tower concept - simply because there are no other developments like it in the entire Metroplex. None of the various office or residential towers going up in the Uptown area (or anywhere else) are attached to a mega grocer. It’s befuddling that so many other developments have gotten out of the ground, yet this most promising one has not.

That whole West Village area is in a funk. They could probable open a Central Market in the existing store in a few months and make it just like the Lovers location. At this point I will be ok with that as the option seems to be let that ugly building and land sit empty for years more.

Cbdallas wrote:That whole West Village area is in a funk. They could probable open a Central Market in the existing store in a few months and make it just like the Lovers location. At this point I will be ok with that as the option seems to be let that ugly building and land sit empty for years more.

Yep. I would take something along the lines of the Lovers Lane location instead of what’s currently there. Even a suburban style Central Market would breathe more life into the West Village. It’s unfortunate that KDC couldn’t get the residential version of this out of the ground.