Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Would love to see some construction equipment start moving dirt on this one.....

Cbdallas wrote:Would love to see some construction equipment start moving dirt on this one.....

A coring truck was working again today. And a large construction debris bin was set near the building. Maybe they are ready to strip out the building.

Any updates from the community on this one?

Just drove past it a few hours ago. It's a ghost town.

I am praying for a quick start and no delays. I need that Central Market ASAP down here.

They had drillers on site a few weeks ago so I am sure it's moving along just finalizing plans. The question is will Central Market have a groundbreaking or just get going without the pomp and PR event.

Any updates on this one? I haven't seen the site in a while, is there any action/construction?

I went to an Uptown Inc real estate networking event last week where the developer spoke about this project. They said groundbreaking should be around Feb or Mar 2020.

Did they say what was taking so long? Obviously we're all impatient about any construction but this one does seem to be taking a bit longer than normal. My guess is it has to do with the intricacies of planning a very different type of store for CM than their other locations.

Probably not related, but the Preston/Royal location took a bad hit from the tornado. I wonder if any of the focus and efforts on Central Market/HEB's end had to be shifted towards rebuilding that location first.

Uptown Dallas Central Market store project is getting closer to start
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... bRoZJxmlWc

This week KDC filed the first building permits for the development, which is expected to take more than two years to complete.
The permits detail more than $46.5 million of construction in the first, 634,200-square-foot section of the project.

I know I don't need to state the obvious "about time", but it's interesting that the store is moving forward without the tower component. Maybe that was the plan all along, but then why wouldn't this have started a year ago?

Finally. I am sure the additional phases will find leases once the project shows some serious progress.

A grocery store would be way less than 634k sq ft and $46MM. maybe this is the grocery and mid rise apts? How big is the hotel piece?

Could it be the grocery, additional retail, and just the garage component?

Where does the story say the tower isn't being built?

Tnexster wrote:Where does the story say the tower isn't being built?

It doesn't say it explicitly but the mention of the "first building permits" and "first section" of the project, followed by "planned" elements of the finished project just make it seem that way. I could be reading too much into it, but it would help to know the total square footage of the entire development, including the towers plus retail and parking.

"This week, KDC filed the first building permits for the development, which is expected to take more than two years to complete. The permits detail over $46.5 million in construction for the 634,200-square-foot first section of the project."

"A 450,000-square-foot office tower and about 150,000 square feet of retail are planned for the entire development."

Also, something tells me that in the first quote he meant "for the first section of the 634,200-square-foot project."

lakewoodhobo wrote:

Tnexster wrote:Where does the story say the tower isn't being built?

It doesn't say it explicitly but the mention of the "first building permits" and "first section" of the project, followed by "planned" elements of the finished project just make it seem that way. I could be reading too much into it, but it would help to know the total square footage of the entire development, including the towers plus retail and parking.

"This week, KDC filed the first building permits for the development, which is expected to take more than two years to complete. The permits detail over $46.5 million in construction for the 634,200-square-foot first section of the project."

"A 450,000-square-foot office tower and about 150,000 square feet of retail are planned for the entire development."

Eh, I wouldn't trust the facts of this article too much. It also stated the property has been vacant for 5 years since Albertsons closed , but it was a Sunfresh market for a few years until end of 2016.

Whichever the case, a Central Market at the spot will be a boon to that specific stretch of Uptown and should really help link it to West Village (plus provide a ton of foot (and vehicle) traffic). Still pissed that CVS got built though...

Maybe we can see Walgreens redeveloped to create some connection to the rest of McKinney Ave.

Walgreens will not want to give up sales to nearby CVS even if Walgreens made a deal to be incorporated into development on their current land. Kroger on Cedar Springs refuses to redevelop because any major changes would mean they would have to shut down completely and they would lose market share they would take years to get back. The Grocery Store wars in urban Dallas are a serious business and I imagine the way Walgreens and CVS have been building locations they are in a similar war with each other trying to make sure they don't make room for any other players let alone concede market in one area while they rebuild. Walgreens and CVS just don't see any bottom-line advantage in shutting down just to allow their store to be worked into a walkable development. CVS has drive-up parking with their new location and Walgreens would lose that advantage in their mind.

Out walking today and noticed Manny’s Uptown is closed. Apparently the building caught fire recently. It happened on Christmas Eve.

A second chance to ”take the money and run” perhaps? Collect your insurance check then sell to developer OR rebuild?

Is that where Rooster used to be? I still miss that place...and Gordon Keith's live spot jingle promoting it...from the early 2000s.

Well, that just means the Central Market development can include that land in their following phase. Could be part of the slowdown. If the land was suddenly available they might have sent the project back to be redesigned to take the land into account particularly if previous versions had this land as a backside and not connected at all to the parking garage. I mean it only very recently became an option so it not the whole story but maybe they have been negotiating land for a while and then the fire helped push things along.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well, that just means the Central Market development can include that land in their following phase. Could be part of the slowdown. If the land was suddenly available they might have sent the project back to be redesigned to take the land into account particularly if previous versions had this land as a backside and not connected at all to the parking garage. I mean it only very recently became an option so it not the whole story but maybe they have been negotiating land for a while and then the fire helped push things along.

Plot Twist: HEB SET MANNY'S ON FIRE!

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Plot Twist: HEB SET MANNY'S ON FIRE!

ON CHRISTMAS EVE, NO LESS!

Tick Tock Tick Tock still waiting to see some action here.

Cbdallas wrote:Tick Tock Tick Tock still waiting to see some action here.

Manny’s Uptown and it’s parking lot are now completely enclosed in fence. Still wondering if CM is acquiring this final piece of that city block. If so, that would change the plans for this development which would require another run past Dallas code and city council.

Any activity on the architects website?

Couldn't they just turn it into the constriction project offices and staging site, for now, build the project mostly as previously planned but push the council on the changes during construction applying pressure with the project already underway? I mean unless they need major parking changes to the garages they could build on the Manny site as an expansion.

I have serious doubts about this project. This was announced years ago, and not a shovel of dirt has been turned.

Well this project is a big one and if Central Market was just building a store they would have been done already but it seems to make it a multi-use project with lots of development players with Central Market appearing to be the main developer I imagine that's part of the reason for the slow pace. Central Market is used to building stores, not Mixed-Use developments and if they are centralizing a lot of the project through them I imagine its much slower than if Trammel Crow did it or KDC. My best guess. Keep in mind they have been contemplating a store on Lemmon at Oak Lawn for years now too even bought land but slowly moved that project forward then got wind they could get this plot and shifted gears and started the process all over again. The Oak Lawn store wasn't going to be mixed-use and they took forever...

I still believe the tornado damage at the Preston/Royal Central Market resulted in them shifting resources and focus to get that one reopened. I have nothing to back that up though.

This is a big project and these things take time... KDC is the developer on this. If I remember correctly, they did pull permits back in January. Could be the overall design has changed or they're tweaking a few things to the plan? I feel confident it will happen, just be patient!

Project is still alive. Moved to 2021 start.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2020/09/04/uptown-dallas-central-market-now-set-for-2021-start/

19 stories. Should be bigger.

Its big enough.

yaaaaaaaaay! This might be a Top 3 project for me. Very happy to see it's alive!

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:19 stories. Should be bigger.

I think this scale will be nice for that lot. Whatever it turns out being will be way better than the suburban mess across the street.

As of today 1/10/21

Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr

Untitled by rlopez2011, on Flickr

They could have done a lot with the land by now just by promoting a future store with a "farmers market" in the parking lot or bring in a artist to do something cool. Its just sad when developers/companies have no creative ideas for how to liven up a site that's in a prime area. Hell they could have worked with someone to do a movie in the parking lot with a blow up screen in front of the store. It would go a long way HEB for building community support. Work with the Magnolia Theater so its a joint promo for a independent theater which is hurting these days.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:They could have done a lot with the land by now just by promoting a future store with a "farmers market" in the parking lot or bring in a artist to do something cool. Its just sad when developers/companies have no creative ideas for how to liven up a site that's in a prime area. Hell they could have worked with someone to do a movie in the parking lot with a blow up screen in front of the store. It would go a long way HEB for building community support. Work with the Magnolia Theater so its a joint promo for a independent theater which is hurting these days.

Wow, all of those are great ideas. HEB needs to listen to the community to build good will. They should also communicate their time line as well. Why the development is stalled would be at the top of the agenda, IMO.

tamtagon wrote:^That's great to hear.

There's no reason to keep Lemmon sequestered in the 1980s. The old Branniff terminal at Love Field will be up and running in the next couple years, the collection of fancy car dealership is known to people all over the world, Uptown has crossed the threshold from developers dream to long term investors dream, the only viable reason to keep Lemmon as high speed thorough fare is so folks can test drive ultra delux sports cars -- and I'm all in favor of multi-purpose redevelopment with reduced access express lanes from Central to Tollway to Love Field handling higher speed traffic -- but Lemmon is an avenue destined for thousands more residential dwellings and the best sidewalk-patio-park dining in the state.

Nah, Lemon will stay as is. I feel like the community in that area just wants the status quo.

The developer of the proposed Central Market/office/hotel/apartments on Lemmon Ave has asked the city to modify their development to remove the 156 Marriott hotel (due to COVID) and to increase the maximum dwelling units (for more apartments) on the site & keep the approved height/density/massing/FAR.
It was supposed supposed to break ground this month. This change sure will cause it to be pushed back even further. I still say, I'll believe it when I see it happening in person.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3953039 ... 586889317/
Credit goes to Adam Murphy in the 'Friends of Oak Lawn' Facebook group

It's understandable that they would want to remove the hotel portion. I'm glad they are increasing residential units in lieu of the hotel, which shows confidence in the residential sector.

DPatel304 wrote:

The developer of the proposed Central Market/office/hotel/apartments on Lemmon Ave has asked the city to modify their development to remove the 156 Marriott hotel (due to COVID) and to increase the maximum dwelling units (for more apartments) on the site & keep the approved height/density/massing/FAR.
It was supposed supposed to break ground this month. This change sure will cause it to be pushed back even further. I still say, I'll believe it when I see it happening in person.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3953039 ... 586889317/
Credit goes to Adam Murphy in the 'Friends of Oak Lawn' Facebook group

It's understandable that they would want to remove the hotel portion. I'm glad they are increasing residential units in lieu of the hotel, which shows confidence in the residential sector.

I suspect this project won't break ground until 2022, if ever. It appears to be a bit of a boondoggle. Has HEB ever built this kind of development in conjunction with one of their grocery stores?

rono3849 wrote:

DPatel304 wrote:

The developer of the proposed Central Market/office/hotel/apartments on Lemmon Ave has asked the city to modify their development to remove the 156 Marriott hotel (due to COVID) and to increase the maximum dwelling units (for more apartments) on the site & keep the approved height/density/massing/FAR.
It was supposed supposed to break ground this month. This change sure will cause it to be pushed back even further. I still say, I'll believe it when I see it happening in person.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/3953039 ... 586889317/
Credit goes to Adam Murphy in the 'Friends of Oak Lawn' Facebook group

It's understandable that they would want to remove the hotel portion. I'm glad they are increasing residential units in lieu of the hotel, which shows confidence in the residential sector.

I suspect this project won't break ground until 2022, if ever. It appears to be a bit of a boondoggle. Has HEB ever built this kind of development in conjunction with one of their grocery stores?

These articles from 2019 are all about their first mixed-use store in Houston, on the ground floor of an apartment donut. The project seems much closer in scale to what Kroger is trying to do on Hall Street than what is proposed for this Central Market development.

https://www.supermarketnews.com/store-d ... evelopment
https://buffaloheightsdistrict.com/h-e- ... o-heights/

My gut was telling me this already. Hopefully they can go big with the apartment towers and maybe still get in some office space. It is strange how there seems to be a struggle to get this part of urban Dallas to fill in still so much underutilized land in this area. You should not feel such a gap when you drive up McKinney ave. I guess I will have to wait longer for easy access to a Central Market.

Well, Steve Brown has confirmed the re-do on this proposed Uptown development in today's DALLAS MORNING NEWS:

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... s-project/

Now reading the article yeah this is a total redesign now that they are eliminating most of the office tower and hotel. Also sad that we won't be getting that AC Marriot that would have been a very good brand for the neighborhood and offered the hotel diversity the area deserves. Wish they could have just delayed a hotel phase because we know that market will return once another year passes but there has been a lot of brand new hotel rooms in Dallas so I get it.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Wish they could have just delayed a hotel phase because we know that market will return once another year passes

I'm not exactly sure that will be the case, though. I think business travel will take a permanent hit now that people know they can get things done over zoom calls. Obviously travel will definitely be much better a year from now, but I'm not sure how long it will take for us to reach pre-COVID levels again.

It certainly says something about the future of office demand, since this likely would not have been completed for almost two years. Hope they replace it with a significant residential tower. Too bad really because the office would have contributed much to the daytime population in the area but guess that's our future.

On the residential side I expect a lot more 1 bedrooms with a study floorplans to show up in the market. Ever since Covid started the demand for two bedrooms and 1 bedroom with study has gone up significantly even as employers in some cases have returned to biweekly office visits. I just don't trust that its a permanent change though. People have been promising a working from home revolution for years and while a pandemic is a definitely a impactful moment I doubt it will change things long term any more than the internet did already. A vaccine can and will eventually reduce the anxiety and fears and unless the human race gets bombarded with a consistent attack by micro-bilogical enemies people will just float back into most of their old habits. Most of my friends already had Fridays work from home anyway. Without a communicable disease sitting over peoples heads they will always want employees under watchful eye. Where things really change if is a entire generation is raised not in a classroom or working from home from the first day they are employed. Once it becomes normal for a generation then it becomes the standard. 2 years under COVID isn't exactly enough to make that sweeping of a change yet.