Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

They have started setting fence posts around the ex-Sun Fresh parking lot.

Thanks for the update. I assume there are no plans to re-develop this plot of land, and that they are just keeping the building as is for now?

Bummer

I thought it was being redeveloped.

That may be the case. I just don't recall hearing anything concrete, which is why I assumed they weren't. I hope I'm wrong.

They have demoed the former shoe repair store on the Lemmon Avenue site near Oak Lawn. The only building left there is the one La Madeline occupies. I wonder if they will be so bold as to build both stores. It still seems like they are still all over the place on their plans for this area. Both sites are great locations lets hope we get two urban stores with a garage parking. I imagine they would have no trouble partnering on a residential tower/ground floor grocery at the West Village site. The air isn't yet out on those projects in Dallas. The Lemmon Oak Lawn site I imagine would not be mixed use but just a more urban format.

A grocery & deli cafe on this site could go a couple+ ways, competing for the Eatzi's/Wholefood/Central Market crowd, or total niche exclusivity, filling the concierge grocery & deli cafe that may or may not be working with Royal Blue in Highland Park Village -- prices would be higher such that quality is assured, but not so high as to be a bad value. Kinda like what Dean & DeLuca was to it's trading area before the national expansion.

Since Eatzi's shows no signs of expanding a wonderful Dallas concept, no reason HEB-Central Mkt should allow the adaptation to sit unaddressed.

I had to walk by once hearing this. To add some details. It looks like black fencing near the vehicular entrances. Maybe a nicer gate close off the parking lot?

I live across the street from this. The black fence posts only surround the parking lot and not the entire building. Curious if they're trying to keep people from parking in there/cutting across the lot or have had problems with attempted break ins. For awhile the parking lot lights weren't turning on at night and it was just one large dark area. Someone eventually came by and fixed them and a trailer with security cameras was set up on the north side of the building.

Edit to add: They've been towing people out of the lot this morning. First time I have seen them do it since Sun Fresh closed.

They started working on the building this week. They're currently taking apart the a/c units on the roof piece by piece. Apologies for the blurry/awful picture...

The fence they put up awhile ago was a non-construction fence but a security fence for long term protection. I imagine they know the building that stands today will not be a part of the long-term future for the property. I assume the machinery like this is useful for resale to some third party. I hope to see some new vision sooner than later though. It sure looks sad as a closed fenced off site as it stands today.

If that were the case they would probably tear the building down pretty quickly so they aren't paying property taxes on the improved value.

JohnMcKee wrote:If that were the case they would probably tear the building down pretty quickly so they aren't paying property taxes on the improved value.

I would not be surprised to see that outcome as well. If you know you are going to do something more than the current use you might as well get the property shovel ready. I think we will see a urban store here with a parking garage and maybe some residential. The question is who will be their partner on the project? I believe Whole Foods searched for a partner on the McKinney Avenue store and I don't doubt HEB is doing the same here.

In the last half of March there were some electrical contractors working in the building. The only change I noted was refrigerated displays were no longer lit up.

After the electricians were gone, some pickups from an auctioneer company were parked there for a few days.

With a little Googling I found the auction announcement. It was held last Thursday, April 6.

https://www.samauctions.com/4/6-former- ... nt-auction

Man I hope we get a good mixed use project on this block. I can see 2 towers going up here. A nice 30 story residential tower would be killer here. With the TC towers ( not sure if that's still on..) going up across WV this area could become even more dense in a couple of years.

No one is going to put a 30 story building there. The Turtle Creek proposed tower you're referring to is around twenty stories.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Man I hope we get a good mixed use project on this block. I can see 2 towers going up here. A nice 30 story residential tower would be killer here. With the TC towers ( not sure if that's still on..) going up across WV this area could become even more dense in a couple of years.

This would be a great spot for more mixed use, not sure how high they can realistically go on this spot but one would think it could go as high as the other towers in WV.

I'm not as concerned about height in Uptown any more. As long as this is urban and pedestrian friendly, it'll be a huge win in my eyes.

Is it realistic to expect some reasonably priced (meaning less expensive than Museum Tower or Blue Ciel) condos? Uptown has plenty of residential on the way, lots of retail, and now we are getting a hotel, but we need more permanent residents in the neighborhood. Perhaps this isn't the best location to expect something 'resonably priced', I'd just like to see something other than another residential high-rise come to Uptown.

For the ground floor, I'd love to see a Food Hall in conjunction with a grocery store. The Uptown Urban Market is decent, but it feels a bit small.

EDIT: The food hall coming to Legacy West is 55,000 sq/ft, while the current Uptown Urban Market is only 7,000 sq/ft. Surely West Village can handle something much bigger than the current Uptown Urban Market.

Thanks for sharing the information.

I am still hoping that no activity or announcement for this site is due to a larger planned development incorporating a Central Market within it. Otherwise get the store open already.

It appears the the second kroger planned for Hall St.
has stalled as well. Uptown/East dallas sure can use a second
full service grocery to take some of the pressure off of the
cityplace kroger.

ebird wrote:It appears the the second kroger planned for Hall St.
has stalled as well. Uptown/East dallas sure can use a second
full service grocery to take some of the pressure off of the
cityplace kroger.

How do you know it's stalled? Kroger owns the land and isn't there a new Starbucks on an out parcel?

I don't have any inside info, just looking a the total lack of any activity since the announcement ten months ago. Owning land does not = development. A suburban Starbucks does not = development.

pretty sure they've done more than "own the land"

ebird wrote:It appears the the second kroger planned for Hall St.
has stalled as well. Uptown/East dallas sure can use a second
full service grocery to take some of the pressure off of the
cityplace kroger.

I've have not been able to grasp the reason for another Kroger that close, especially with changing buying behavior.

The proposed new Kroger is less than a mile from the other. How does that "take some of the pressure off" the Cityplace Kroger? What pressure? I live very close to that one and used to go there regularly and while it was somewhat busy at times (perhaps the day before Thanksgiving), it was nothing that to me would warrant another store one mile away.

The problem that store had (maybe has, I only go every couple of months now) to me is:

• Inventory – Out of stock. I cannot count on 10 hands how many times I’ve had to go to a second store to get ingredients for a recipe because that store was out of one or more simple ingredients.
  
• Inventory – Lack of variety. They have majorly dumbed down the stock since the store first opened. When the doors opened, it was similar to a Whole Foods but not Whole Paycheck. Then, the organic selection shrank over time and the overall variety did as well. I’m not an organic freak, but found that with that decline, selection of produce and meat (of a higher quality) went down with it if what you were looking for was in stock at all.
  
• Staff – Similar to the Neighborhood Market across 75, the store became more and more reliant on self-checkout. I expect that from Wal-Mart or even Target, but not Kroger.

The more important problem is the big A… Amazon. I haven’t been back to that Kroger since I got Amazon Fresh. Why would I? I’ve used their delivery many times and other than a one-off here or there, what they’ve delivered has been great. I find myself using Prime Now for delivery from Sprouts even more than that actually. I get a hair to cook for my friends? I can sit at the computer looking through my recipes, make a shopping list, and click order. I can spend the time saved in getting the house ready for company.

While some would say I’m paying a premium for the convenience and luxury, I’ve compared prices. They aren’t that much different and in many cases cheaper. Yes, I pay for some form of delivery fee, but I've read that saving time makes people more happy that saving money. I know that is definitely 100% true for me.

Probably my longest post ever here -- and I don’t post often -- but this is a topic I feel strongly about. I’m really curious about the forward strategy of these store location decisions. It confuses me for them in the short term, but really baffles me for them in the long term.

TreeFrog wrote:

ebird wrote:It appears the the second kroger planned for Hall St.
has stalled as well. Uptown/East dallas sure can use a second
full service grocery to take some of the pressure off of the
cityplace kroger.

I've have not been able to grasp the reason for another Kroger that close, especially with changing buying behavior.

The proposed new Kroger is less than a mile from the other. How does that "take some of the pressure off" the Cityplace Kroger? What pressure? I live very close to that one and used to go there regularly and while it was somewhat busy at times (perhaps the day before Thanksgiving), it was nothing that to me would warrant another store one mile away.

The problem that store had (maybe has, I only go every couple of months now) to me is:

• Inventory – Out of stock. I cannot count on 10 hands how many times I’ve had to go to a second store to get ingredients for a recipe because that store was out of one or more simple ingredients.
  
• Inventory – Lack of variety. They have majorly dumbed down the stock since the store first opened. When the doors opened, it was similar to a Whole Foods but not Whole Paycheck. Then, the organic selection shrank over time and the overall variety did as well. I’m not an organic freak, but found that with that decline, selection of produce and meat (of a higher quality) went down with it if what you were looking for was in stock at all.
  
• Staff – Similar to the Neighborhood Market across 75, the store became more and more reliant on self-checkout. I expect that from Wal-Mart or even Target, but not Kroger.

The more important problem is the big A… Amazon. I haven’t been back to that Kroger since I got Amazon Fresh. Why would I? I’ve used their delivery many times and other than a one-off here or there, what they’ve delivered has been great. I find myself using Prime Now for delivery from Sprouts even more than that actually. I get a hair to cook for my friends? I can sit at the computer looking through my recipes, make a shopping list, and click order. I can spend the time saved in getting the house ready for company.

While some would say I’m paying a premium for the convenience and luxury, I’ve compared prices. They aren’t that much different and in many cases cheaper. Yes, I pay for some form of delivery fee, but I've read that saving time makes people more happy that saving money. I know that is definitely 100% true for me.

Probably my longest post ever here -- and I don’t post often -- but this is a topic I feel strongly about. I’m really curious about the forward strategy of these store location decisions. It confuses me for them in the short term, but really baffles me for them in the long term.

Glad that Amazon Fresh is working out for you. I'm a big Amazon customer and we tried Fresh but it wasn't a good fit for us. I do love Kroger's Click List (order ahead and pickup) and they are implementing it at the City Place store.

I went to Kroger weekly for the last ten years. A month ago, I tested Amazon Fresh as it came with free trail with something I ordered. I haven't been to Kroger for a month now and love it. Shipping is free on orders over $35 and as a bonus, I get to do dry ice experiments with my son after every delivery.
Not sure how much it is after free trial, but considering the headache saved on driving, gas, and spending money on extra stuff that I didn't plan on buying, I'll probably stick around. I'm curious how much this will disrupt the market going forward...

So anyway back to Central Market...

Cbdallas wrote:So anyway back to Central Market...

Aka no news on this site.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:

Cbdallas wrote:So anyway back to Central Market...

Aka no news on this site.

Yup. Disappointing to see that the new activity on this thread was off-topic...

See link below for a fairly comprehensive list of D/FW grocer news.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/ret ... pened-tell

The Uptown location at Lemmon and McKinney has no opening date yet and here’s why:

The land under the Uptown store that Central Market purchased is owned by a limited partnership that also owns the land under the Walgreens across the street. The properties are managed by a Florida company that didn’t return a request for comment. However, Butt addressed the process.

“Though very early in the development phase, Central Market is exploring options with our landlord for the best use of this choice location,” Butt said. “We are taking time to design a Central Market that will showcase a fantastic customer experience.”

Butt called the Uptown location “a rare opportunity to combine a great shopping experience like Central Market with such a powerful retail location.” He said the company is committed to the Uptown location “bringing the most exciting food journey” to Dallas, but it’s going to take more time.

A Whole Foods Market opened in Uptown in 2015 with apartments above it. A Tom Thumb is under construction in Uptown in a high-rise office and residential building called The Union that will open in 2018 or 2019.

Sounds like they are exploring their mixed use options for the site!

I'd guess that they are working to extend the existing ground lease with the land owner. They need a minimum of 40 years (preferably longer) of remaining term (including lessee options) before they could realistically start redeveloping the site.

If it is a ground lease, it seems like it is the same for that whole section of Uptown, which is why it doesn't blend well with anything on any side of it.

The whole section bound by Lemmon, Oak Grove, Lemmon E, and Cole (also with the Walgreen's, as it appears part of the CM site) is all suburban-style development on ground leases (not a nice suburb either). Remember they wanted to turn the Shell into a Pollo Tropical

Is it even possible or feasible to build mixed use on a ground lease? I guess I just thought they actually bought the land and, therefore, it would be mixed use since that makes the most sense. Now with this, I'm not so sure that won't just end up with a nice Central Market and the best we can hope for is a configuration that makes it fit better with Uptown than that suburban island it is in.

Dmkflyer wrote:The whole section bound by Lemmon, Oak Grove, Lemmon E, and Cole (also with the Walgreen's, as it appears part of the CM site) is all suburban-style development on ground leases (not a nice suburb either).

I would be curious to know more about ground lease impacts to what is built - anybody got insight?

It seems to me this trouble area IS MORE suburban-style. I am wondering if that is due to the influence of being surrounded by four one-way drag strips. What was built may have been intended only for auto access. Back in the day, who would of thought that pedestrians would rule this area?

As long as there is sufficient term remaining on the ground lease (i.e. 40+ years), the ground lease itself should not limit to what can be built. For reference, Northpark Mall was built on a ground lease (eventually sold to Nasher), the World Trader Center in NYC is built on a ground lease, and pretty much any private use at DFW airport (hotels, office buildings, gas stations, etc.) are all built on ground leases.

Good to know, dallasite24!

I heard from a current store employee that the Greenville/Lovers store would be expanded in order to add more kitchen space. They were told that the new "uptown" store would not be large enough to cook all their own food/bread. The new store would be delayed until this remodel was completed. When I asked which Lemmon Ave location, the employee did not know. For what it's worth, they seemed unaware that there were two Lemmon possibilities.

The Lemmon/McKinney location seems large enough (at least as large as Greenville?) The quote in the DMN article below says HEB wants to take it's time and create a special store. Doesn't sound like one too small to cook its own food.

I have wondered before about the size of the Lemmon/Throckmorton site. Is it large enough for a store and a parking lot? Wasn't there some chatter about turning it N/S in order to accommodate the lot (like the Lemmon Ave Whole Foods).

I don't know what to make of this information, but there it is.

There's quite a few electrical contractor vehicles parked out front of the building today. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, and thinking they're doing work inside to keep the building from falling into disrepair.

This building needs to be bulldozed!

flyswatter wrote:There's quite a few electrical contractor vehicles parked out front of the building today. I'm trying not to get my hopes up, and thinking they're doing work inside to keep the building from falling into disrepair.

Funny you mention that. The parking lot lights were all on tonight.

So there is a notice in the Dallas Observer that Central Market is opening at Bishop Arts. Does anyone know anything about the McKinney & Lemmon property. Nothing is happening that I can see or hear. I am fine waiting if it is going to part of a taller denser development but some news would be great.

I think they know a suburban strip mall store is not the best use of the site. They're probably looking for developer to partner with. The whole foods down the street did it right shame if their competitor doesn't do the same.

I wouldn't mind if most Lemmon redevelopment occurred after a thorough rezoning & complete street mandate overlays Oak Lawn.

Cbdallas wrote:So there is a notice in the Dallas Observer that Central Market is opening at Bishop Arts.

I read the Observer piece and then the DMN story with the "confirmation" of the Bishop Arts opening. I'm not sure it accurate. It's one line at the end of the story about a different development which is itself a fluff story that doesn't really say anything new. It's not a confirmation from HEB on what (or when) they have planned for the land they purchased.

Yeah, it was more or less HEB admitting they own land they bought from the developer and have no details on what they will open or when. Everything else seems to be assumptions which, to be honest, are quite logical with the given information. Unless HEB is planning another store concept I imagine they are fine sitting on the land while more of the apartments and other neighborhood improvements mature before they build one of their urban Central Market stores.

OK I got to visit casually with a person on the inside and they said that the plan is they will raze the existing structure and put a mixed use with Residential and office towers with retail at bottom with underground parking. A Central Market will be part of that retail at the bottom of the developement. Start in 2020. Fingers crossed.

^That's great to hear.

There's no reason to keep Lemmon sequestered in the 1980s. The old Branniff terminal at Love Field will be up and running in the next couple years, the collection of fancy car dealership is known to people all over the world, Uptown has crossed the threshold from developers dream to long term investors dream, the only viable reason to keep Lemmon as high speed thorough fare is so folks can test drive ultra delux sports cars -- and I'm all in favor of multi-purpose redevelopment with reduced access express lanes from Central to Tollway to Love Field handling higher speed traffic -- but Lemmon is an avenue destined for thousands more residential dwellings and the best sidewalk-patio-park dining in the state.

Cbdallas wrote:OK I got to visit casually with a person on the inside and they said that the plan is they will raze the existing structure and put a mixed use with Residential and office towers with retail at bottom with underground parking. A Central Market will be part of that retail at the bottom of the developement. Start in 2020. Fingers crossed.

I feel like that's pretty much a best case scenario for this spot. Woohoo!