Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Why is TG square still, both figuretively and literally, a dump?


I see no work being done there.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Why is TG square still, both figuretively and literally, a dump?


I see no work being done there.

The signage was upgraded last year. But other than that...

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:Why is TG square still, both figuretively and literally, a dump?


I see no work being done there.

The renovation plan (which required some coordination with PJAR Architects) is pretty much finished, and now the private funds need to be raised to make the improvements. It's all privately operated and maintained but Downtown Dallas Inc. and the City of Dallas have participated in the process.

The first phase is exterior/landscape upgrades, major components being the repair of fountains, lowering of walls, new mid-block entrances/overlooks, dog relief area outside the walls, and a regraded/replanted landscape. Second phase is ADA improvements and interior renovations. I will post visuals when they are announced.

http://www.thanksgiving.org/thanks-givi ... tion-plan/

New signage is up and outdoor furniture is on the way for the 40th anniversary year (small interim improvements that don't affect the larger renovation). Chapel interior improvements (lighting and visitor experience) have been made. We are also working with surrounding buildings to either maintain or eliminate the current "temporary" dog area that concentrates smells and waste in one area (unsustainable with 800 dog visits per day). Food trucks should be back when Thanksgiving Tower construction is finished.

The City of Dallas maintains the Pedway entrances on Bullington which have been abandoned and boarded up for several months now. That's a separate issue.

November 1976:



And earlier:

dfwcre8tive wrote:New signage is up and outdoor furniture is on the way for the 40th anniversary year

That may just be the scariest sentence I've ever read in my life.

Because I was there.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

dfwcre8tive wrote:New signage is up and outdoor furniture is on the way for the 40th anniversary year

That may just be the scariest sentence I've ever read in my life.

Because I was there.

Do you remember Louie's fish joint for lunch?

Thanks for sharing, Noah. We don't see a lot of color photos of Corrigan Tower before they painted the brick section.

lakewoodhobo wrote:Thanks for sharing, Noah. We don't see a lot of color photos of Corrigan Tower before they painted the brick section.

Did you notice the Medical Arts Building in the middle of the picture? It was gone within a year or so after this was taken.

willyk wrote:Do you remember Louie's fish joint for lunch?

Nope, doesn't ring a bell. Where was it?

Mainly I remember Never Eat Anything Larger Than Your Head, Wendy's, Great Outdoors (on Main?), and riding my motorcycle to the Jack In The Box on Live Oak -- which I still visit all too frequently...

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

lakewoodhobo wrote:Thanks for sharing, Noah. We don't see a lot of color photos of Corrigan Tower before they painted the brick section.

Did you notice the Medical Arts Building in the middle of the picture? It was gone within a year or so after this was taken.

Yeah, Medical Arts is up there with the Kress and the Baker as the worst downtown demolitions IMO.

lakewoodhobo wrote:

Hannibal Lecter wrote:

lakewoodhobo wrote:Thanks for sharing, Noah. We don't see a lot of color photos of Corrigan Tower before they painted the brick section.

Did you notice the Medical Arts Building in the middle of the picture? It was gone within a year or so after this was taken.

Yeah, Medical Arts is up there with the Kress and the Baker as the worst downtown demolitions IMO.

Don't forget the Cotton Exchange and Dreyfus Buildings.

lakewoodhobo wrote:Thanks for sharing, Noah. We don't see a lot of color photos of Corrigan Tower before they painted the brick section.

I found hundreds of slides of Dallas in the 1970s in the archives of Thanks-Giving Square. Since it was the first "modern park" downtown there were countless studies of the site and surrounds. My slide scanner is in Seattle, but if anyone wants to help digitize archives I have a project for you! There are also many reels of film, betamax, and audio cassettes (interviews with architects, artists, etc like this one: https://vimeo.com/192028902). We're posting old renderings and images here: http://www.thanksgiving.org/thanks-givi ... /40-years/

Thanksgiving Square seems overwhelmingly underutilized. Every time I venture about there, it's always a ghost town.

joshua.dodd wrote:Thanksgiving Square seems overwhelmingly underutilized. Every time I venture about there, it's always a ghost town.

Any suggestions for how to make it more lively? There are those that want to fill it with more activity (food trucks, concerts, etc) and those that want it to be a quiet reflective place (a "shrine" set apart from the noise of the city). Finding a successful middle ground between the religious and commercial is a challenge.

Getting back to the Thanksgiving Tower renovation... since banning smoking on their property the smokers now cross the street. But since Thanks-Giving Square is also now smoke-free, you'll see a line of people crowded on the small island in the middle of the street. That's one small change.

Does anyone know if the short tunnel between Thanksgiving Tower and Thanks-Giving Square will reopen? Are there plans to renovate the basement level restaurant/retail or keep it closed? The tower still uses the truck terminal for deliveries/services.

Actually, I do. Remove the wall that was built around it. Though it may be fairly short, it is still a wall that cuts the park off from the streets. Remove that ugly 70s era wall and you open the park up and make it more inviting from the streets. The wall makes it like a fortress meant to keep people out.

Given the history of neglect, one can only assume that the TGS Foundation is out of money and none the leadership has the resources or energy to replenish it. They need to find new leadership that will recapitalize the Foundation, hire an urban planner to update the design, and then fund a renovation. There are plenty of people, companies and other foundations in town that would offer financial support if the Foundation could show effective leadership.

About the Foundation and its Leadership:
http://www.thanksgiving.org/thanks-giving-foundation/info/

joshua.dodd wrote:Actually, I do. Remove the wall that was built around it. Though it may be fairly short, it is still a wall that cuts the park off from the streets. Remove that ugly 70s era wall and you open the park up and make it more inviting from the streets. The wall makes it like a fortress meant to keep people out.

That's the plan. Nearly all of the exterior walls will be lowered to seating height with new entrances on Pacific Avenue. Once that happens the slope of the landscape will be flatter and easy to access. It should really make the connection to the surrounding city better.

willyk wrote:Given the history of neglect, one can only assume that the TGS Foundation is out of money and none the leadership has the resources or energy to replenish it. They need to find new leadership that will recapitalize the Foundation, hire an urban planner to update the design, and then fund a renovation. There are plenty of people, companies and other foundations in town that would offer financial support if the Foundation could show effective leadership.

About the Foundation and its Leadership:
http://www.thanksgiving.org/thanks-giving-foundation/info/

There are some resources, but right now we're paying for years of deferred maintenance (a lesson for other shiny/new projects to learn from). We went down to a very small staff in 2016 to divert as much funds as possible to that focus. Other funds are going to the renovation plans. Selzer Associates is the architect, Kevin Sloan Studio the landscape/urban design team, and Philip Johnson Alan Ritchie Architects in New York has assisted and given it their blessing (so that it enhances and doesn't destroy Johnson's original vision). I believe the plans may be held up in permitting, and until they are issued we haven't approached funding sources, grants, or announced a public campaign. Project cost for Phase I (exterior) is several million; it's about $250k just to repair the fountains.

Many of the long-time donors are dying off so there's a need to show how the Foundation can be relevant to attract new support (partnering with Cafe Momentum, creating Faith Forward Dallas, starting the Neighbors Council, etc). Some relationships also need to be repaired. Until then, a lot of the smaller "maintenance" projects have used volunteer labor and non-traditional community funding. Or they have been behind-the-scenes and not outwardly visible.

As a board member I have witnessed new energy with new members bringing real estate, fundraising, and outreach backgrounds to the table (the founder, now 96 years old, has retired). The renewed focus to make the Square better connected to the community is right and the prayer vigil in July (after the police shootings) showed the need for such a place in Dallas. The changes are not happening as fast as most of us would like, but it's moving in the right direction.

We definitely need as much community support and ideas as possible; thus my sharing the information here. I welcome any feedback.

AOK I stand corrected! Glad to hear there is a plan and steps are being taken to get things moving.

Are there any plans or renderings you all can share here on the Forum?

Have some PR efforts been made to get this story out there? The perception of the Square is neglect and stagnation.

As I said, I believe there will be loads of community support and funding once the new leadership makes it presence known. Please stay energetic!

I heard a rumor that the DART line right there may be buried underground at some point in the distant future and then TGS would be made into a Subway station! I would love for this to really happen... any idea if it's real?

I have heard nothing about that. That would be nice

buildingswithlegs wrote:I heard a rumor that the DART line right there may be buried underground at some point in the distant future and then TGS would be made into a Subway station! I would love for this to really happen... any idea if it's real?

Eventually the DART line downtown needs to go underground, but it won't be for the foreseeable future. First we have to get through D2 and the Cotton Belt construction.

willyk wrote:AOK I stand corrected! Glad to hear there is a plan and steps are being taken to get things moving.

Are there any plans or renderings you all can share here on the Forum?

Have some PR efforts been made to get this story out there? The perception of the Square is neglect and stagnation.

As I said, I believe there will be loads of community support and funding once the new leadership makes it presence known. Please stay energetic!

No PR yet (intentionally), but some early plans have been shown at neighborhood meetings and the website now features a "teaser" of what's to come. As soon as the information is public all the renderings will be shared here. I do think there will be community support, but there are a lot of projects competing for donor money!

buildingswithlegs wrote:I heard a rumor that the DART line right there may be buried underground at some point in the distant future and then TGS would be made into a Subway station! I would love for this to really happen... any idea if it's real?

I haven't heard that rumor. Remember that originally a subway line was planned to go under Pacific or Elm, with the pedestrian tunnels connecting them to offices. Thanks-Giving Square was planned to be one major entrance into that network. The truck terminal extends under the streets and to the property lines in that area, so it would need to be pretty deep.

When DART decided to build at-grade on Bryan in 1993, it changed the traffic patterns and pedestrian access at Thanks-Giving Square. "Akard Station" was almost named "Thanks-Giving Square Station."

This image shows how traffic lanes were removed and the western triangle area expanded outside the original walls, which created a lot of leftover space. DART paid for the tall wall along Pacific to block sight and noise from trains and an access point was closed. Those large gray monoliths were added on surrounding corners, "expanding" the Square.

This ambiguous extra space is one area to be addressed during the renovation. Pacific Avenue may also be converted to two-way for a portion to better access Thanksgiving Tower and create a slower curb-free plaza in that area.

dfwcre8tive, thanks for all of your posts!

How does one get involved? As a neighbor of Thanks-Giving Square, I'd love to be a part of the revitalization.

Would it be safe to say that the DART rail did more hindrance to the park?

joshua.dodd wrote:Would it be safe to say that the DART rail did more hindrance to the park?

It's safe to safe DART obliterated everything on Pacific.

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:It's safe to safe DART obliterated everything on Pacific.

Some forum members would disagree, with compelling reason.

From the "DART: Expansion" thread:

Tucy wrote:Crowne Plaza
Renaissance Tower
The Mosaic
Holocaust Museum
The Drever
One Dallas Center
Marquis West End
Sheraton Hotel
City Center
Homewood Suites
Republic Tower
Plaza of the Americas

This is an incomplete list of development/redevelopment projects either completed since the surface rail line began operating or currently under development. All are right there on the light rail line. Rather than strangling development and keeping it from that part of town, a stronger case can perhaps be made that redevelopment started along the rail line and has spread out from there.

Yeah, I've read this. But to say that those Developments were built because of DART is innacurate. They were built in spite of DART. And were built for other compelling reasons. Many of those were redevelopments which have nothing to do with DART.

I contend that DART being on Pacific has hurt TG square as opposed to bringing people there. It seems that Cafe Momentum is the only reatil near on that part of block. The other side is empty. And has been for years.. I don't know why but if I had to guess I would have to say that it's obscured from pedestrians and vehicular traffic. In addition it's obstructed visually because of DARTs transit mall on Pacific.

I Have no issue with DART or transit in general.

But I certainly believe Pacific would be more activated without DART being above grade.

I believe West End would be helluva lot nicer with DART being BELOW grade there that's for sure.

I also don't like how DART makes the area near Dallas HS feel like an island. But that has alot to do with the on ramps and garages near by too...

I hope those rumors are true!

Given that the City doesn't yet have the money to bury D2, when they get the money it will be a decade before D2 is done, and TG Square is owned by a private foundation not the City, burying D1 and turning the Square into a subway station seems very unlikely.

As bad as DART has been for Pacific, there is hope. Besides renovating the Square, we have The Drever, Dallas High, Pacific Plaza, Carpenter Park and The Mayflower Building all in the pipeline. Hopefully some retail will follow. If someone could get DART out of the Sangers building and redevelop it, that would be a good next step.

I really can't agree with the above statements. Having Pacific as a vehicular corridor instead of transit plaza would be even more divisive and alienate Thanksgiving square even more. There are plenty of other reasons why the area struggles that have nothing to do with DART. Namely, the single use (office) nature of many of the buildings built during the 80's, former reliance on tunnel system, and the 'walled off plaza' type architecture of the time period.
If DART were to be buried and Pacific were returned to cars, your eyes may be fooled by more 'activity' of the cars cruising by, but it would do nothing for the street life itself.

In the highly unlikely scenario that D1 were to be buried underneath Pacific--a pipe dream for many of us, indeed--it would be great to have Pacific turned into an entirely pedestrian corridor.

joshua.dodd wrote:In the highly unlikely scenario that D1 were to be buried underneath Pacific--a pipe dream for many of us, indeed--it would be great to have Pacific turned into an entirely pedestrian corridor.

Hey it's free to dream!

Are you aware that pedestrian-only downtown malls have turned out to be absolute disasters in this country? IIRC, around 85% fail and are converted back to normal streets. Those that don't fail are almost all located in towns with less than 50,000 population.

http://nacto.org/docs/usdg/revisiting_p ... scmidt.pdf

Yeah, decreasing the size of the walls would be the best thing to make it more inviting, especially on the Bryant St. side. Other than that, lighting would help. It gets really dark at night. Not sure if this would be a quick fix or not, but just maintaining the shrubs on the periphery.

Whatever they do will be pointless if they don't level the park (literally and figuratively) and remove the the walls and shrubbery which act as a fence

With all of the major developments happening around Pacific and he DART traffic, that alone makes it a highly trafficked area. Put DART underground, but keep the stations located at the same locations, then you still maintain that high volume of pedestrian traffic. It would work in Downtown.

Where are these rumors coming from regarding DART going underground? We are still a long ways away from the D2 and Cotton Belt being completed, which are higher on the priority list.

I'd love to see the existing rail line put underground, but I can't see that ever happening. One of the biggest problems with a street-level line is that it has to share the road with cars. Whenever self-driving cars are mainstream, this won't be much of an issue, as an autonomous car will be able to efficiently share the road with DART rail without causing any issues. I realize that it'll be a long time before the road is filled with self-driving cars, but I'd imagine this rumored underground line is also just as far off (if it were to even happen).

i believe the idea is that it would come well after the D2 and Cotton Belt, but am unsure. i may have gotten too excited and shared something that is undercooked.

Hannibal Lecter wrote:Are you aware that pedestrian-only downtown malls have turned out to be absolute disasters in this country? IIRC, around 85% fail and are converted back to normal streets. Those that don't fail are almost all located in towns with less than 50,000 population.

http://nacto.org/docs/usdg/revisiting_p ... scmidt.pdf

Thank you for posting this paper. While it is true that many of the attempts to create downtown pedestrian malls failed from the 60's into the early 90's, those failures correlate with the failures of downtowns themselves (pedestrian plaza or not). Times are very different, and when done right these plazas can be (and have been) a huge success.
In Dallas' case, such a corridor would serve more as a conduit linking various areas rather than attempting to mimic a 'shopping mall' as was tried elsewhere.
Harwood would work well as it is not a primary vehicular corridor now, and could link things like Katy Trail, Harwood district, Mckinney ave, KWP, Arts District, Pacific Plaza, MSG, Carpenter Park, and the Farmers Market... all without seriously disrupting traffic or impacting existing business. Harwood hasn't got much of either, and cross street flow will not be interrupted. Narrowing the traversable corridor to no more than two (meandering?) lanes primarily oriented to bicycle travel, and expanding each 'sidewalk' extensively will allow landscaping, benches, tables, and encourage/allow street level cafe's at the few retail frontages along prominent intersections.
Tying into an East/West corridor such as the existing Bryant/Pacific would help establish a 'network' that will connect to more points of interest and improve foot traffic. But, I think it's important that the focus be on connectivity, and not trying to replicate a 'downtown disney' of any sort.

A few updates at Thanks-Giving Square:

- The waterfall fountain in the Grove and main fountain have been repaired and now run pretty clean (the best in years). The side reflecting pools are the next ones to receive attention. Since the repairs involve updating all of the equipment, it's a big process so it has been divided into phases.

- Resident volunteers planted Spring flowers and native grasses last week to freshen up the landscape.

- Staff are working with neighboring properties to address the dog issue; no improvement there as of yet.

- Larger renovation plans are percolating but the campaign has not yet been launched. We are finding/applying for small grants to fund mini-improvements in the mean time.

- New chairs and tables are coming to Thanks-Giving Square in May. If you would like to help, donate a chair. Link: http://www.thanksgiving.org/support/40chairs/

Community members donated all 40 chairs + tables, and they will be going into Thanks-Giving Square this weekend (with volunteer help). Also, new outdoor lighting has been installed to brighten up the area in the evening.

https://www.facebook.com/events/131580214083558/

Here are some photos of the new chairs and tables, which were all donated by community members (some on this forum). New lights were also added to the Grove, thanks to partial funding from Downtown Dallas, Inc.

Great job to all the volunteers & donors- especially the DFWForum
members.

Love the string lights! Looks great. Are those on a timer, sensor, or....?

muncien wrote:Love the string lights! Looks great. Are those on a timer, sensor, or....?

They are on a photocell which allows the lights to turn on automatically every evening and off in the morning. The LED string lights replace the harsh (and small) security light... high enough to avoid tampering.

A food/bev stand or two would be great here, and other pocket parks like it. Hot dogs, tapas, or something else. Common in Europe, and it activates the space and could provide some small leasing revenue to maintain and improve the park space.

Looks nice, I hope they stay there. They look very easy to pick up and potentially be taken away.

Tnexster wrote:Looks nice, I hope they stay there. They look very easy to pick up and potentially be taken away.

The same chairs / tables are used at Klyde Warren Park and Bryant Park. We expect a few of them may walk away and will plan for replacements, although Downtown Dallas Inc reports that very few of its lightweight park chairs have been stolen. Flexibility in chair arrangement is better than bolting them to the ground.

Matt777 wrote:A food/bev stand or two would be great here, and other pocket parks like it. Hot dogs, tapas, or something else. Common in Europe, and it activates the space and could provide some small leasing revenue to maintain and improve the park space.

The Foundation has a good relationship with Cafe Momentum across the street, so there are opportunities to bring that into the space or along the edges. There are long-standing concerns about how commercial the "meditation garden" should be allowed to become, since it is different from other public parks downtown. Back in the 1980s the Foundation didn't even permit a popcorn vendor to sell snacks out of the pedestrian concourse, and there are still ordinances prohibiting unsanctioned protests or loud music on surrounding blocks!

I visited Thanksgiving Square today for probably the first time in almost 40 years. Absolutely disgusting and embarrassing. They need to just lock the gates.