Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

View of greater Downtown Dallas from pool area at Bleu Ciel, 03-30-19

Plano Empty Nesters’ Journey to Bleu Ciel
by Shelby Skrhak, Candy's Dirt, 03-30-19

They say the beauty of life rests in the journey — and for Tony and Sue Sanders, the next step quickly became the best chapter. Hailing from Plano, the Sanders found themselves in unchartered waters as empty nesters when their daughter Katie graduated from high school. Tony and Sue were ready for a lifestyle change and their search brought them to Bleu Ciel’s front steps.

Their search began casually with no exact vision of what this “lifestyle change” looked like. Tony and Sue began perusing potential residences spanning from Dallas to Fort Worth. A year into their search, it came to a serendipitous halt. With help from their daughter, the couple had discovered their oasis resting in the very heart of Dallas — Bleu Ciel, 3130 N. Harwood Street.

For the Sanders, Bleu Ciel represented a luxury living experience at the intersection of urban and elegance.
....
What Tony and Sue cherish most about this new lifestyle is the walkability and access. Bleu Ciel stands majestically in the epicenter of uptown Dallas, with the sought-after Harwood District as its front yard. The two can saunter into Saint Ann Restaurant & Bar on a Saturday afternoon, indulging in delicious cuisine and craft cocktails from its coveted garden patio. Tony loves the instant access to Mavericks and Stars games at American Airlines Center, just a stone’s throw away from their residence. Sue’s favorite is to take a stroll down Katy Trail or to Klyde Warren Park on a lazy Sunday.
....
Article: https://candysdirt.com/2019/03/30/tell-us-your-real-estate-story-plano-empty-nesters-journey-to-bleu-ciel/?utm_source=Candy+Evans+-+All+Subscribers&utm_campaign=780962205e-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bd2a6dc536-780962205e-16460437

March 2019

5 units sold. 52 sold in 16 months (3.25 per month) 106 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 1 month.

April 2019

5 units sold. 57 sold in 17 months (3.35 per month) 101 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years.

May 2019

0 units sold. 57 sold in 18 months (3.17 per month) 101 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 2 months.

June 2019

2 units sold. 59 sold in 19 months (3.11 per month) 99 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 3 months.

July 2019

2 units sold. 61 sold in 20 months (3.05 per month) 97 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 4 months.

August 2019

1 unit sold. 62 sold in 21 months (2.95 per month) 96 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 6 months.

September 2019

1 unit sold. 63 sold in 22 months (2.864 per month) 95 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 8 months.

October 2019

1 unit sold. 64 sold in 23 months (2.783 per month) 94 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 9 months.

So the sellout projection continues to grow as the months tick by.

Tnexster wrote:So the sellout projection continues to grow as the months tick by.

Yeah. I'm a little surprised at how slowly this one is selling. I guess Dallas's high-rise market is really still not ready for prime time.

^That is my feeling as well. It still surprises me a little bit as I would have guessed this one would have moved faster.

It is in a disconnected location but I think once Harwood completes it won't feel so strange. Try driving up to it not an easy path. The landscape around the bottom still does not look finished to me and it faces an old parking lot next to the Katy trail. It feels a little like a rocket ship that landed there with no context but I think it will do fine in the future.

I agree on the location, but I was also wondering if they were done with the base of the building -- the black with the silver bands looks incomplete IMHO.

Hardwood needs to be more developed before this location is more sought after. There’s too much blank space around it.

Does it look to anyone else like the lights at the top of this building have been having issues? They kind of seem to flicker at night. Not great.

It's been that way for weeks you can see it from the Katy Trail near Ice House.

November 2019

1 unit sold. 65 sold in 24 months (2.708 per month) 93 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 4 years, 11 months.

December 2019

1 unit sold. 66 sold in 25 months (2.64 per month) 92 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 5 years.

January 2020

Zero sold. 66 sold in 26 months (2.54 per month) 92 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 5 years, 3 months

February 2020

One unit sold. 67 sold in 27 months (2.48 per month) 91 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 5 years, 4 months

Seems like this one might take a long, long time to sell out.

^ 20 years ago I looked at units in 1505 Elm. Today the penthouse is still shell space. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1505 ... 4585_zpid/

Hannibal Lecter wrote:^ 20 years ago I looked at units in 1505 Elm. Today the penthouse is still shell space. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1505 ... 4585_zpid/

Is that how long ago they opened 1505 up for residential use? I remember that conversion but didn't realize that was 20 years ago.

Well, the rumor is 1401 Elm Street is looking at adding that penthouse to the Thompson Hotel as an event space and they are negotiating with 1505 Elm Street on how that arrangement could work for both parties. I just wish 1505 could get some ground-floor retail space back.

It's amazing to think of all the properties that were the pioneers on Downtown especially ownership like 1505 Elm.

Tnexster wrote:Is that how long ago they opened 1505 up for residential use? I remember that conversion but didn't realize that was 20 years ago.

I bought my current place in early 2002, and looked at 1505 before then.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well, the rumor is 1401 Elm Street is looking at adding that penthouse to the Thompson Hotel as an event space and they are negotiating with 1505 Elm Street on how that arrangement could work for both parties. I just wish 1505 could get some ground-floor retail space back.

It's amazing to think of all the properties that were the pioneers on Downtown especially ownership like 1505 Elm.

By any chance, did that rumor get its start in our 1401 Elm thread?

Why would 1401 even want to use 1505 as an event space? They have 1 million sf to play with at 1401?

Tnexster wrote:Why would 1401 even want to use 1505 as an event space? They have 1 million sf to play with at 1401?

That's what I've been wondering... The idea makes very little sense.

Except if you look at space 1505 penthouse it's rather gorgeous. Two stories of glass on three sides with some of the best views of the city even if its shorter than 1401 Elm. Being the tallest isn't always the only way to get the best view. I also once used to question why the Reunion Hyatt seems to hold on for dear life to Union Station for event space. They could have easily built a modern space by now. Do they get a sweat heart deal from the city of course but the space is perfect for weddings and the like and has lots of character that weddings, luncheons, etc love that the Reunion Hyatt wouldn't be able to build into a modern space. 1401 Elm is a big building but the Thompson hotel could easily see the value in the mid-century penthouse as rentable events space. 1401 Elm has lots of space to fill but do they have the right space. 1505's penthouse is a shell space at the moment and if the 1505 Homeowners association would like the money in exchange for building maintenance budget and other improvements they could both benefit from a events relationship with strict rules on how things would operate.

Still could be mostly someone else musings but it's not an insane idea with examples already in practice in Dallas. That penthouse will never lease as a condo I can guarantee the homeowners association that lives there at 1505 knows that.

Tucy wrote:

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well, the rumor is 1401 Elm Street is looking at adding that penthouse to the Thompson Hotel as an event space and they are negotiating with 1505 Elm Street on how that arrangement could work for both parties. I just wish 1505 could get some ground-floor retail space back.

It's amazing to think of all the properties that were the pioneers on Downtown especially ownership like 1505 Elm.

By any chance, did that rumor get its start in our 1401 Elm thread?

Underrated comment.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Except if you look at space 1505 penthouse it's rather gorgeous. Two stories of glass on three sides with some of the best views of the city even if its shorter than 1401 Elm. Being the tallest isn't always the only way to get the best view. I also once used to question why the Reunion Hyatt seems to hold on for dear life to Union Station for event space. They could have easily built a modern space by now. Do they get a sweat heart deal from the city of course but the space is perfect for weddings and the like and has lots of character that weddings, luncheons, etc love that the Reunion Hyatt wouldn't be able to build into a modern space. 1401 Elm is a big building but the Thompson hotel could easily see the value in the mid-century penthouse as rentable events space. 1401 Elm has lots of space to fill but do they have the right space. 1505's penthouse is a shell space at the moment and if the 1505 Homeowners association would like the money in exchange for building maintenance budget and other improvements they could both benefit from a events relationship with strict rules on how things would operate.

Still could be mostly someone else musings but it's not an insane idea with examples already in practice in Dallas. That penthouse will never lease as a condo I can guarantee the homeowners association that lives there at 1505 knows that.

Is there really anyone besides you musing about this idea?

You are probably right that the penthouse will never lease as a condo, since it is an unfinished shell and is not For Lease. I presume you also think it will never sell as a condo. Why do you think that? FWIW, it is currently under contract.

I'll bet those condo owners LOVE the idea of having hundreds of non-owners taking their elevators up to the top floor for events.

Oh, and about the Hyatt Regency and Union Station. Hyatt Regency does not appear to be operating the event space at Union Station. I find no mention of the Union Station event spaces on the Hyatt Regency's website, and indeed, Union Station has its own website for the event center there.

Tucy wrote:Oh, and about the Hyatt Regency and Union Station. Hyatt Regency does not appear to be operating the event space at Union Station. I find no mention of the Union Station event spaces on the Hyatt Regency's website, and indeed, Union Station has its own website for the event center there.

Hyatt doesn't run the event space at Union Station, it's run by Wolfgang Puck Catering. That said, the Hyatt has preferential access to the space and does sell it. In exchange, the Hyatt has an obligation to book some minimum number of dollars annually in that space.

CRE_Investor wrote:

Tucy wrote:Oh, and about the Hyatt Regency and Union Station. Hyatt Regency does not appear to be operating the event space at Union Station. I find no mention of the Union Station event spaces on the Hyatt Regency's website, and indeed, Union Station has its own website for the event center there.

Hyatt doesn't run the event space at Union Station, it's run by Wolfgang Puck Catering. That said, the Hyatt has preferential access to the space and does sell it. In exchange, the Hyatt has an obligation to book some minimum number of dollars annually in that space.

Thank you for the clarification. Wolfgang Puck also runs the Reunion Tower restaurant which is how I blended them into one entity.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Except if you look at space 1505 penthouse it's rather gorgeous. Two stories of glass on three sides with some of the best views of the city even if its shorter than 1401 Elm. Being the tallest isn't always the only way to get the best view. I also once used to question why the Reunion Hyatt seems to hold on for dear life to Union Station for event space. They could have easily built a modern space by now. Do they get a sweat heart deal from the city of course but the space is perfect for weddings and the like and has lots of character that weddings, luncheons, etc love that the Reunion Hyatt wouldn't be able to build into a modern space. 1401 Elm is a big building but the Thompson hotel could easily see the value in the mid-century penthouse as rentable events space. 1401 Elm has lots of space to fill but do they have the right space. 1505's penthouse is a shell space at the moment and if the 1505 Homeowners association would like the money in exchange for building maintenance budget and other improvements they could both benefit from a events relationship with strict rules on how things would operate.

Still could be mostly someone else musings but it's not an insane idea with examples already in practice in Dallas. That penthouse will never lease as a condo I can guarantee the homeowners association that lives there at 1505 knows that.

BTW the 1505 penthouse actually already sold. It was sold by the developer to a couple back in 2006. That couple still owns it and currently has it under contract to sell.

Well, that's some news Tucy glad to hear it! Could of cleaned out my rumors early but instead you wanted the drama as usual.

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well, that's some news Tucy glad to hear it! Could of cleaned out my rumors early but instead you wanted the drama as usual.

No drama here. I posted the info as soon as I discovered it. Perhaps you should refrain from posting unfounded nonsense.

Tucy wrote:

cowboyeagle05 wrote:Well, that's some news Tucy glad to hear it! Could of cleaned out my rumors early but instead you wanted the drama as usual.

No drama here. I posted the info as soon as I discovered it. Perhaps you should refrain from posting unfounded nonsense.

I'll try to contain myself in the future. Lord knows I would hate for myself to be the blame for you to research how I was wrong in the first place and add value to the conversation.

March 2020

Zero units sold. 67 sold in 28 months (2.39 per month) 91 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 5 years, 7 months

Wow, they've only sold 1 whole unit all year. >ugh<, Glad I'm not in that business.

Amazing how poor condo sales do here.

Does anyone know why Dallas isn't much of a high rise condo city? Also what building would you live in, all things considered?

Someone let me know if I'm maybe misremembering...but didn't those condos that were built in Legacy West all sell very quickly? Like under a year fast...


Condos are a weird game. It's hard to explain to someone (especially in a state like Texas) that not only do they need to pay a yearly property tax, but they also have to pay a monthly building and maintenance fee (that are sometimes very very expensive).

Zmitz wrote:Does anyone know why Dallas isn't much of a high rise condo city? Also what building would you live in, all things considered?

Texas' high property taxes, low road tolls, short commute times and lack of >100-year-old rich urban neighborhoods definitely don't increase the size of the market for condos. The cities that have those generally also have a geographic barrier like water or hills doubling as something that looks particularly cool and relaxing from a highrise.

I'd live in the Gold Crest, 3601 Turtle Creek.

dzh wrote:Someone let me know if I'm maybe misremembering...but didn't those condos that were built in Legacy West all sell very quickly? Like under a year fast...

I presume you are talking of Windrose Tower? They are well short of being sold out. According to their website, they have sold 56 of 90.

But the Collin County Appraisal District only shows 19 that have sold. (3 in December, 4 in January,10 in February, and 2 in March)

Zmitz wrote:Does anyone know why Dallas isn't much of a high rise condo city? Also what building would you live in, all things considered?

Also, I'd add that I personally think our highrise condo developers have not produced the best product/location in Dallas, which lead to not the hottest sales, and have created a self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to new condo towers.

We judge highrise condos off of the following experiences:
Museum Tower: An arts community focused tower that opened in one of the sleepiest parts of a then-sleepy Downtown Dallas, that caused major damage to an adjacent sculpture museum loved by their target clients, and then doubled down in a legal battle with said museum..... need we say more.
Bleu Ciel: Terrible location in between two highway offramps. the surrounding empty lots look abandoned, and beyond them are soulless office towers with no ground level interaction.
Azure: Opened right before the 2008 recession
The House: See Azure

I think condos would do much better where you see prime apartment towers going up in prime lots. Ardan, Carlisle and Vine, One Uptown, etc.. And maybe they will convert to condo one day.

It is sad that Harwood hasn't done more with their neighborhood. You couldn't have had a more boring pedestrian experience if you tried! I know this is a bit off-topic, but does anyone have any input on living at the 588 Lofts in State Thomas? They seem like a great combination of reasonable price, style, location, HOAs, etc. Is there any sort of catch?

Zmitz wrote:It is sad that Harwood hasn't done more with their neighborhood. You couldn't have had a more boring pedestrian experience if you tried! I know this is a bit off-topic, but does anyone have any input on living at the 588 Lofts in State Thomas? They seem like a great combination of reasonable price, style, location, HOAs, etc. Is there any sort of catch?

Boring is putting it too nicely. Dangerous is more apt.

Zmitz wrote: Also what building would you live in, all things considered?

Actually, I'm pretty happy where I'm at. First floor, older quiet complex in an older suburban neighborhood I'm very familiar with. Fortunately also, the family that owns the complex isn't being hounded by tear-it-down/replace-it-with-bigger-and-more-expensive type of developers, either.

It might sound boring and blah to some, but after a string of bad roommates, 2 not-so-safe 'hoods, and a year of being homeless, I am thrilled to have a roof again. And no one to answer to but myself (and the landlord of course, who has been very nice)!

April 2020

Two units sold. 69 sold in 29 months (2.38 per month) 89 remaining.

Sell-out projection: 5 years, 7 months