Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Posted: **02 Mar 2017 15:46**

Like they care about filling it beyond the desire to spend less investment on concrete parking garages.

Right, but if a company rents a space at $100 per sq foot with the assumption that they will need 100 spaces, and it turns out they only need 10, then they are going to want to renegotiate that the next time the negotiation comes up. It's really no different than the northern cities wanting to re-negotiate their water contracts which are based on their highest use rather than average or current use.

Or the building manager wants tenants to use all the building's available amenities to justify prices.

Posted: **02 Mar 2017 16:16**

All the deals I am aware of simply lock in a number of spots dedicated to each tenant as part of the lease.

Posted: **02 Mar 2017 16:39**

They care in the sense that it's probably pretty painful to see that something that cost you a lot of money to build is not valued by your tenants. If they can't even fill it, then it's a pure loss. Not 100% rational, but hey, developers are people too. They have feelings.

Posted: **02 Sep 2017 14:03**

This is not related to the upcoming development, but it is related to Idle Rich (sorry for bumping this thread and getting everyone's hopes up):
https://www.facebook.com/IdleRichPub/ph ... =3&theater

Looks like they are converting some (or all?) of the parking lot into a bar for Labor Day weekend. I'm not sure if they have done this before, but I would like to see more stuff like this done. Plenty of good usable surface lot space in Uptown and Deep Ellum that could be quickly converted to more bar space or for food trucks, and, if successful enough, these bars might make this more of a permanent conversion.

Posted: **20 Nov 2017 19:41**

A longtime Irish pub that opened long before Uptown Dallas became Uptown Dallas is closing. After 13 years, The Idle Rich Pub will close in January 2018, giving pub fans two months to attend the wake.

Owner Feargal McKinney posted a note on Facebook reflecting on the pub's long lifespan in a neighborhood that's been swept by change.

"Hard to believe but it is almost 14 years since I signed the lease at the former O'Dowd's space on McKinney Ave and got to work on opening The Idle Rich Pub," McKinney writes. "Uptown was downright sleepy back then, we had no idea what was ahead. I have had 14 great years and met many new friends and invaluable employees. Several still-current employees started there opening night. Unfortunately, our lease expires at the end of January 2018, and our final day of business will be sometime in January."

http://dallas.culturemap.com/news/resta ... ch-closes/

Idle Rich's days are numbered...

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 11:14**

Idle Rich closes Tuesday, Jan. 23, after which it will be bulldozed and replaced by a high-rise.

https://www.guidelive.com/bars-and-cock ... 1516635578

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 12:28**

I'm glad Idle Rich is finally about to close. Can't wait to see it demolished and a new tower rise in it's place!

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 12:52**

I just hope the new tower has a brick facade. Something reminiscent of the brick townhomes built nearby.

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 12:59**

Meh.. close enough..

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... 1516647412

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 13:41**

Meh? I can't wait to see this one rise - I think this is one of the best-looking towers we've gotten in years. I also kinda hope Idle Rich reopens in the building's restaurant space.

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 13:58**

joshua.dodd wrote:I'm glad Idle Rich is finally about to close. Can't wait to see it demolished and a new tower rise in it's place!

Idle Rich was a great neighborhood spot with good service and good food. Perfect people watching location on the patio too. Their building was well kept. It added vibrancy to the street. Not sure why you want to see that demolished for a dead apartment building that will probably have terrible interaction with the street, and would only sign a chain national retailer/restaurant.

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 14:01**

eburress wrote:Meh? I can't wait to see this one rise - I think this is one of the best-looking towers we've gotten in years. I also kinda hope Idle Rich reopens in the building's restaurant space.

Don't get me wrong. It's nice. Just wanted a different style. Hopefully, idle rich reopens.

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 14:24**

Idle Rich won't reopen in the building. Agreements with the neighborhood associations are to put in a valet driven restaurant. The article even says NO BAR which is an odd statement cause no restaurant will work without some sort of bar. Idle Rich was a Bar & Resturant which on a personal note I felt was a good one for food and atmosphere unlike a lot of the places that have opened in the last few years. What the neighborhood really wants a stop to is "club/bars" places like The Den, Trophy Room, Kung Fu, Concrete Cowboy, Masque. Idle Rich was a good pub for sure. At the same time, I am interested in seeing the evolution of McKinney Avenue and let's hope neighborhood associations don't kill off all forms of night time entertainment. I like a walkable bar scene but I do agree its current state is a little too wild at times. It needs some natural boundaries and forcing every space on Mckinney Avenue to be a chain like Fogo de Chao is overkill. Fogo De Chao looks dead every time I pass it and certainly seems really out of place.

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 14:45**

I agree Fogo De Chao looks dead most of the time. I am not sure how you transition McKinney away from the bar/pub scene. I think you would have to have more density and diversity(owners not renters) to make regular restaurants be more viable. Better be careful if you take away nightime scene that those younger kiddos empty out of those new apartment buildings and lease somewhere else in Metro.

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 14:55**

Do we want to go ahead and take odds on which steakhouse will occupy the bottom floor of this one?

Posted: **22 Jan 2018 19:36**

I'm looking forward to this apartment tower. I really wish the Den/Trophy/Jakes lot would re-develop.

Posted: **23 Jan 2018 08:30**

Also in case, anyone has not noticed the transition may already be happening because Fat Rabbit is closed and is being remolded and will reopen as a restaurant and gallery by another name. No more nightclub style bar/restaurant.

Posted: **23 Jan 2018 09:20**

That was fast. I'm not too surprised, I figured this was only a matter of time. I suspect we'll see a few more night spots either re-developed into a high-rise and converted into something less night-clubby and, eventually the party will move on to another area. Right now that area seems to be Deep Ellum, but it would be nice to see a completely new spot emerge.

Posted: **23 Jan 2018 10:34**

I hope the restaurant is not a steakhouse lol

Posted: **23 Jan 2018 11:24**

I'd go for a good/fun Tex-Mex place, possibly along the lines of a La Condesa in Austin.

Posted: **23 Jan 2018 12:10**

The design district would be ideal for Nightclub style bars Uptown doesn't want anymore.

Posted: **23 Jan 2018 14:26**

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:The design district would be ideal for Nightclub style bars Uptown doesn't want anymore.

That's what I was thinking too, an entertainment scene with a more mature, eclectic vibe.

Posted: **23 Jan 2018 18:45**

Today is supposed to be the last night that Idle Rich is open. They brought a coffin into the building this afternoon for the wake.

Posted: **06 Mar 2018 10:52**

Has anyone else heard that this project has fell through?

Posted: **07 Mar 2018 20:55**

joshua.dodd wrote:Has anyone else heard that this project has fell through?

I’m pretty sure that has been the case for quite a while if memory serves correctly. I thought the neighborhood association protested the rezoning or something along those lines. I could be way off. That was many moons ago.

Posted: **08 Mar 2018 08:42**

Dallas12 wrote:
joshua.dodd wrote:Has anyone else heard that this project has fell through?

I’m pretty sure that has been the case for quite a while if memory serves correctly. I thought the neighborhood association protested the rezoning or something along those lines. I could be way off. That was many moons ago.

The neighborhood worked with the developer and they agreed to open a valet restaurant only in the building no bars. Last paperwork I saw the city cleared the building for take-off. If this project really is dead it probably has more to do with the developer and the finances of the project than anything.

Keep in mind if this steel/aluminum tariff really happens construction costs are going to significantly increase which could potentially affect the viability of some projects. If construction materials exceed a certain threshold for some developers they can a project and move on without a tear.

Posted: **08 Mar 2018 16:37**

joshua.dodd wrote:Has anyone else heard that this project has fell through?

i doubt this project is dead

Posted: **08 Mar 2018 23:04**

cowboyeagle05 wrote:
Dallas12 wrote:
joshua.dodd wrote:Has anyone else heard that this project has fell through?

I’m pretty sure that has been the case for quite a while if memory serves correctly. I thought the neighborhood association protested the rezoning or something along those lines. I could be way off. That was many moons ago.

The neighborhood worked with the developer and they agreed to open a valet restaurant only in the building no bars. Last paperwork I saw the city cleared the building for take-off. If this project really is dead it probably has more to do with the developer and the finances of the project than anything.

Keep in mind if this steel/aluminum tariff really happens construction costs are going to significantly increase which could potentially affect the viability of some projects. If construction materials exceed a certain threshold for some developers they can a project and move on without a tear.

In that case, the tower will still be going up. With that said, how when will this valet restaurant be open? Is it going to be in the old Idle Rich building? If it is going to be in the Idle Rich building, then for how long? And how long until actual demolition?

Posted: **09 Mar 2018 09:03**

I'm pretty sure the valet restaurant will be going into the new high-rise building on the ground floor.

Posted: **09 Mar 2018 14:34**

Then there's some major misunderstanding in the Uptown community. Everyone in Uptown is claiming the project is dead.

Posted: **09 Mar 2018 15:41**

joshua.dodd wrote:Then there's some major misunderstanding in the Uptown community. Everyone in Uptown is claiming the project is dead.

Was there something in the news giving them that impression or do you think it was more gossip/hearsay?

Posted: **09 Mar 2018 18:49**

I would bet it was gossip. But I've heard people say that another Irish style pub is going back into the corner building. Maybe they are mistaking that for the restaurant in the base of the new tower?

Posted: **10 Mar 2018 12:13**

Ahhh, I bet you're right. Well I hope they're wrong and that McKinney/Boll proceeds as planned.

Posted: **10 Mar 2018 14:27**

Yeah, it would be a shame if they kicked out Idle Rich only to have the high rise not go through.

Posted: **12 Mar 2018 08:54**

So far no one seems to really know so I am going to assume its still going forward. Still sounds like conjecture and rumor mill stuff rather than someone really being in the know.

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 10:06**

New bar and restaurant lease set for McKinney Avenue tower site

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/rea ... tower-site

A new bar and restaurant has leased a prime Uptown Dallas property that previously planned for an apartment tower.

One Sette bar and restaurant leased the former Idle Rich bar building at 2614 McKinney Avenue.

Idle Rich had been in the spot for more than a decade until it closed in January when its lease was up.

In early 2017 the owners of the property at McKinney and Boll Street obtained approval from the city for an 18-story apartment tower on the site.

The high-rise was planned with a fitness center and retail on the lower floors.

But with a new lease signed for the existing building, it would seem that the residential tower is not going to happen soon.

Colliers International Group's Michael Tran negotiated the lease with Gretchen Miller and Stephen Wise with Weitzman representing property owner J&K Real Estate Investments.

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 10:15**

Ugh, they should have just let Idle Rich move back in. I've been thoroughly unimpressed with all the new spots on McKinney and they seem to close as fast as they open. They focus on flash more than food/drink. Especially across the street in whatever is currently occupying Sfuzzi/Fat Rabbit/New concept/New concept's space.

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 10:46**

I've always been somewhat perplexed by the fact that our best local chefs tend to stay far away from opening concepts in Uptown. You see areas like Knox / Henderson, Greenville Ave, Deep Ellum and even more recently the Design District attract the local talent. Is it the rent or is there a perception that Uptown isn't that great of a dining destination say for a few restaurants??

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 10:57**

Kelley USA wrote:I've always been somewhat perplexed by the fact that our best local chefs tend to stay far away from opening concepts in Uptown. You see areas like Knox / Henderson, Greenville Ave, Deep Ellum and even more recently the Design District attract the local talent. Is it the rent or is there a perception that Uptown isn't that great of a dining destination say for a few restaurants??

I'm pretty sure there was a point in time where Uptown did get all the cool trendy restaurants, but this was before the revitalization of most of those other areas you mentioned. Uptown used to be unique as it was one of the only urban/walkable areas in Dallas, but now it has some stiff competition.

I really wonder how it will hold up now that it's no longer as unique. Slightly off topic, but there was an article I posted in the DFW corporate relation thread about another firm moving from Uptown to Downtown. I know your post was about restaurants, but the same thing applies to companies as well. I'm sure a lot of them initially located to Uptown because it was the only urban neighborhood in Dallas, but, as Downtown develops, they will have less and less of a reason to stay in Uptown.

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 11:01**

DPatel304 wrote:
Kelley USA wrote:
I really wonder how it will hold up now that it's no longer as unique.

I think it will become more of a ghost town after 5pm now that the small group of very loud condo owners are trying to get everything shut down. It's becoming more office and residential focused. Honestly, downtown Dallas seems much more vibrant than Uptown now. The luster of live/work/play is fading in Uptown as the play element moves to other neighborhoods like Deep Ellum.

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 12:08**

Many of these apartment towers will make great Condo conversion projects as the market changes away from post college drinking to adult living.

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 13:58**

Kelley USA wrote:I've always been somewhat perplexed by the fact that our best local chefs tend to stay far away from opening concepts in Uptown. You see areas like Knox / Henderson, Greenville Ave, Deep Ellum and even more recently the Design District attract the local talent. Is it the rent or is there a perception that Uptown isn't that great of a dining destination say for a few restaurants??

It might be that two of the most famous celebrity chefs in Dallas have restaurants in Uptown, Fearing's and Stampede 66, and no chef in their right mind would want to play in that kiddie pool.

Posted: **25 Apr 2018 19:16**

Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:
Kelley USA wrote:
I really wonder how it will hold up now that it's no longer as unique.

I think it will become more of a ghost town after 5pm now that the small group of very loud condo owners are trying to get everything shut down. It's becoming more office and residential focused. Honestly, downtown Dallas seems much more vibrant than Uptown now. The luster of live/work/play is fading in Uptown as the play element moves to other neighborhoods like Deep Ellum.

Do you mean Main St. in Downtown? I wouldn't say that Downtown as a whole beats out Uptown for vibrancy. There's still too much dead space between Downtown's vibrant spots. It would be nice if Downtown could absorb more of Uptown's nightlife scene than Deep Ellum, since it's a bit more fitting. I know the West End is becoming this new tech hub, but it would also be nice if they could attract more nightlife.

Posted: **26 Apr 2018 01:07**

mcrdal15 wrote:
Matt777 wrote:
DPatel304 wrote:

I think it will become more of a ghost town after 5pm now that the small group of very loud condo owners are trying to get everything shut down. It's becoming more office and residential focused. Honestly, downtown Dallas seems much more vibrant than Uptown now. The luster of live/work/play is fading in Uptown as the play element moves to other neighborhoods like Deep Ellum.

Do you mean Main St. in Downtown? I wouldn't say that Downtown as a whole beats out Uptown for vibrancy. There's still too much dead space between Downtown's vibrant spots. It would be nice if Downtown could absorb more of Uptown's nightlife scene than Deep Ellum, since it's a bit more fitting. I know the West End is becoming this new tech hub, but it would also be nice if they could attract more nightlife.

Main, Elm, Commerce, Arts District, West End, Klyde Warren, and Farmer's Market all seem much more vibrant than Uptown to me these days (I live and work Downtown). Yes there are gaps between these areas but those are slowly filling in. The recent large increase in hotel rooms has been a big part of this in my opinion, especially around where the AC Hotel, Residence Inn, Statler, and Hampton have gone in. Downtown still has a lot of room to grow too, with tons of parking space ready for redevelopment whereas Uptown is largely built out and outside of a slowly quieting McKinney Ave, Uptown is pretty quiet these days. Has anyone else noticed the huge drop in pedestrian activity on McKinney Avenue?

Posted: **26 Apr 2018 08:20**

Matt777 wrote:
mcrdal15 wrote:
Matt777 wrote:
I think it will become more of a ghost town after 5pm now that the small group of very loud condo owners are trying to get everything shut down. It's becoming more office and residential focused. Honestly, downtown Dallas seems much more vibrant than Uptown now. The luster of live/work/play is fading in Uptown as the play element moves to other neighborhoods like Deep Ellum.

Do you mean Main St. in Downtown? I wouldn't say that Downtown as a whole beats out Uptown for vibrancy. There's still too much dead space between Downtown's vibrant spots. It would be nice if Downtown could absorb more of Uptown's nightlife scene than Deep Ellum, since it's a bit more fitting. I know the West End is becoming this new tech hub, but it would also be nice if they could attract more nightlife.

Main, Elm, Commerce, Arts District, West End, Klyde Warren, and Farmer's Market all seem much more vibrant than Uptown to me these days (I live and work Downtown). Yes there are gaps between these areas but those are slowly filling in. The recent large increase in hotel rooms has been a big part of this in my opinion, especially around where the AC Hotel, Residence Inn, Statler, and Hampton have gone in. Downtown still has a lot of room to grow too, with tons of parking space ready for redevelopment whereas Uptown is largely built out and outside of a slowly quieting McKinney Ave, Uptown is pretty quiet these days. Has anyone else noticed the huge drop in pedestrian activity on McKinney Avenue?

Yes, I’ve noticed it too. I guess I wasn’t the only one...

Posted: **26 Apr 2018 08:41**

What is happening to Uptown is what has happened to all our entertainment districts. Its going through a period of reflection and downturn that will turn it into something more evolved. Deep Ellum has gone through this many times with long periods of downturn. Lowest Greenville did the same and now its back with a new version as well. West End is on its own upswing and reinvigoration. Main Street has just quietly moved forward with a few leaps every few years. Uptown will bounce back considering how much its worth.

West End used to be hopping but when the burbs started building Urban Live Work Play everywhere better it was quickly out matched. Now its a tech office hub that needs some street level energy.

Posted: **26 Apr 2018 08:43**

Whats interesting is the West Village seems to be maintaining its same level of energy and activity with honestly a fewer number of bars and short list of newcomers and mostly retail and resturants. There appears to be a better balance in the West Village which keeps things from being so yo yo.

Posted: **26 Apr 2018 10:51**

cowboyeagle05 wrote:What is happening to Uptown is what has happened to all our entertainment districts. Its going through a period of reflection and downturn that will turn it into something more evolved. Deep Ellum has gone through this many times with long periods of downturn. Lowest Greenville did the same and now its back with a new version as well. West End is on its own upswing and reinvigoration. Main Street has just quietly moved forward with a few leaps every few years. Uptown will bounce back considering how much its worth.

West End used to be hopping but when the burbs started building Urban Live Work Play everywhere better it was quickly out matched. Now its a tech office hub that needs some street level energy.

I don't know if you can compare Uptown to Deep Ellum or Lower Greenville, though, as Uptown has got a lot more residential and office compared to the other two areas.

With that said, it will be interesting to see how things play out for Uptown in the coming years. About fifteen years ago, Uptown almost had a monopoly on urban living in Dallas. If you wanted urban living, there weren't many places you could get it outside of Uptown. I'm starting to think that's all it really had going for it, was the fact that it was the first. However, now there are a number of (cheaper) alternatives, so it'll be harder and harder for residents and businesses to justify the premium price of Uptown.

I know Downtown has quite a bit of dead space, but I see significantly more potential in Downtown than I do in Uptown.

Posted: **26 Apr 2018 16:52**

Matt777 wrote:
mcrdal15 wrote:Has anyone else noticed the huge drop in pedestrian activity on McKinney Avenue?
Yes, I’ve noticed it too. I guess I wasn’t the only one...

I have noticed that since So&So's became Parlay, it has been the most dead bar on that strip. I think the area is really shifting away from the party atmosphere to a more relaxed bar scene. Before changing, you could barely get a seat in So&So's. Now, it's the most barren bar on weekends, with Eastwood's and Quarter Bar overflowing sometimes. Annoyingly, it doesn't stop Parlay from blasting Beyonce and having DJs

It also might explain why West Village restaurants are doing so well...The neighborhood doesn't want to party anymore.

Posted: **26 Apr 2018 17:31**

flyswatter wrote:It also might explain why West Village restaurants are doing so well...The neighborhood doesn't want to party anymore.

Sounds about right. I don't think it was really the 'neighborhood' that wanted to party to begin with. A lot of people who party in the area don't even live there, so, for them, commuting to Uptown or Deep Ellum doesn't make much of a difference. The party scene can also be really fickle too. One day you're the hottest bar in the city, and the next day you're old news.

Uptown isn't new and flashy any more, so it seems like people are moving on. The strip with Kung Fu/Concrete/Clutch still seem to be doing well, but I really think it's only a matter of time before those bars up and move somewhere else.

I hope Uptown can still attract enough people so that it is not a complete dead zone though.

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