Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 11:01**

Per this, the Idle Rich is out of here, and will become an 18 story condo building.

http://dallas.towers.net/2016/12/12/mck ... or-uptown/

Will have underground parking, a restaurant on the 1st floor and units above averaging 1000 sq feet.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 11:27**

^It sure looks like a cross between the Gables building and One Uptown. This is also slightly smaller than the Gold's Gym parcel, so I'm a little dumbfounded by how that building isn't on the chopping block for the next high-rise.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 11:31**

Love it... Glad to see some owner occupied units coming online. The area is well overdue for such.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 11:33**

Man, I like that a LOT! SUCH a great looking tower. How exciting!

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 11:38**

I love that! I've always been torn by McKinney Ave though... You have some of the nicest and most expensive office rents in the City, along with the Ritz Carlton. And then just blocks away you have Idle Rich, The Den, Longshots, etc... There's sort of a 1/4 mile stretch that quite frankly isn't all that pretty, and the owners have done very little to beautify their buildings, landscaping etc... I've always thought McKinney Ave could be our Magnificent Mile lined with cool retail shops, great restaurants etc... I've said it before, but how different would McKinney Ave. be if say Anthropologie was located in the Blackfriar Pub and Nike had a 3 level store where The Den is (just using those retailers as examples). I think that would be pretty cool!

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 12:15**

Kelley USA wrote:I love that! I've always been torn by McKinney Ave though... You have some of the nicest and most expensive office rents in the City, along with the Ritz Carlton. And then just blocks away you have Idle Rich, The Den, Longshots, etc... There's sort of a 1/4 mile stretch that quite frankly isn't all that pretty, and the owners have done very little to beautify their buildings, landscaping etc... I've always thought McKinney Ave could be our Magnificent Mile lined with cool retail shops, great restaurants etc... I've said it before, but how different would McKinney Ave. be if say Anthropologie was located in the Blackfriar Pub and Nike had a 3 level store where The Den is (just using those retailers as examples). I think that would be pretty cool!

I'm pretty sure that's essentially the direction McKinney is going. We're seeing the transition now. Those bars will all eventually be replaced, though most of the new product would likely be residential and not the retail you are speaking of. That's going to continue to be further north in the West Village or further south, closer to Downtown/Victory.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 12:18**

Looks good, nice addition to McKinney and one less bar.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 12:31**

eburress wrote:Man, I like that a LOT! SUCH a great looking tower. How exciting!

The resolution in the image was poor quality ..

Hard for me to tell if it'll be good...

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 13:21**

muncien wrote:Love it... Glad to see some owner occupied units coming online. The area is well overdue for such.

I don't see anything in the article that suggests these are condos, rather than rental apartments.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 13:48**

BOOM!

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 16:16**

eburress wrote:I'm pretty sure that's essentially the direction McKinney is going. We're seeing the transition now. Those bars will all eventually be replaced, though most of the new product would likely be residential and not the retail you are speaking of. That's going to continue to be further north in the West Village or further south, closer to Downtown/Victory.

Yeah, I definitely see this happening as well, and it's exciting. Uptown just doesn't make sense any more as a 'bar district' and we're going to soon see all the bars slowly get pushed out by high rises.

I could see the Design District eventually becoming the next bar district that might appeal to the same Uptown crowd.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 17:03**

DPatel304 wrote:Yeah, I definitely see this happening as well, and it's exciting. Uptown just doesn't make sense any more as a 'bar district' and we're going to soon see all the bars slowly get pushed out by high rises.

I could see the Design District eventually becoming the next bar district that might appeal to the same Uptown crowd.

Unfortunately I think the pressure is already on Deep Ellum.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 19:50**

There's some other lots on McKinney that could really use some new development like where The Den/Jake's Hamburgers is, the gas station next to ZaZa, the corner at Hall and McKinney with the surface parking and old lowrise buildings. Then hopefully the old Sun Fresh Market lot is redevelopment into a mixed use development. That would just leave some certain lots like where Walgreens, Hook Line and Sinker, etc are to be re-developed.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 21:28**

Trying to reach some contacts, I am incredibly suspicious, last I heard the tallest building even being entertained was 8 stories and I seriously doubt Kingston or the STHD would even consider this massive increase in density.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 21:40**

DPatel304 wrote:
eburress wrote:I'm pretty sure that's essentially the direction McKinney is going. We're seeing the transition now. Those bars will all eventually be replaced, though most of the new product would likely be residential and not the retail you are speaking of. That's going to continue to be further north in the West Village or further south, closer to Downtown/Victory.

Yeah, I definitely see this happening as well, and it's exciting. Uptown just doesn't make sense any more as a 'bar district' and we're going to soon see all the bars slowly get pushed out by high rises.

I could see the Design District eventually becoming the next bar district that might appeal to the same Uptown crowd.

The SUP will almost certainly pass in Uptown, the bars can whine all they want but it has the support of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of commercial and residential property in Uptown.

Goodbye MAT, The Den, Trophy Club, probably Avenu, and a few other places that have made it clear they have no intention on voluntarily complying with the law. As soon as Uptown is not a place welcoming to the kind of patrons that frequent those establishments the party crowd will move on, the rest of the bars that don't serve their patrons into oblivion until they pass out or start assaulting each other will be fine.

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 22:39**

Out of curiosity why is everyone so happy about this? I personally live and work around here and feel like this is a big loss for the neighborhood. Idle Rich has been there for years and is a staple of that area for a great lunch, work happy hour or just a place to take my parents for a beer when they are in town.

The bars that need to go are the party bars in the area like Trophy Room, Den, Tates, Clutch, Kung Fu, Avenu etc, not the good neighborhood staples. What is going in its place, more apartments and another steakhouse that is empty on the weekends?

All i am saying that they need to take more people into consideration rather than just the neighborhood associations. Of course they are for big corporate development because it increases value of their land and property but not everyone agrees with it. I bought in this neighborhood for the walkable bars and unique history of the neighborhood that is slowly being destroyed. Just my rant, take it as you will..

Posted: **12 Dec 2016 23:55**

I'm afraid I don't understand your criticism, no one is or was trying to force Idol Rich out of the neighborhood, I would not be surprised if they found a new lease.

Uptown is now a thriving dense and very wealthy neighborhood, that is highly unlikely to change in the next decade and that demographic will easily support many bars that aren't catering to the party scene.

Don't worry, Uptown's demographics support high quality bars, The Trophy Room can GTFO.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 07:28**

What does the forum feel about losing places such as Black Friar and Renfields? It seems inevitable with One Uptown (Former Hard Rock site) essentially a beer bottle toss away. But in my opinion some of these places are what gave Uptown it's charm as a destination in the first place...

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 09:02**

The owner of Idle Rich is the same owner of Black Friar, old monk and skellig. He recently sold renfields to another investor who I believe wants to flip that whole development. As stated above I was very surprised to hear about the idle rich sale but he did not own that building so mostly not his choice. In contrast he owns the black friar building which is his favorite business and I have heard he would never sell it. We will see though as things progress on McKinney.

My thought is that it's not big enough without the building next door as well.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 09:04**

petecambell wrote:Out of curiosity why is everyone so happy about this? I personally live and work around here and feel like this is a big loss for the neighborhood. Idle Rich has been there for years and is a staple of that area for a great lunch, work happy hour or just a place to take my parents for a beer when they are in town.

The bars that need to go are the party bars in the area like Trophy Room, Den, Tates, Clutch, Kung Fu, Avenu etc, not the good neighborhood staples. What is going in its place, more apartments and another steakhouse that is empty on the weekends?

All i am saying that they need to take more people into consideration rather than just the neighborhood associations. Of course they are for big corporate development because it increases value of their land and property but not everyone agrees with it. I bought in this neighborhood for the walkable bars and unique history of the neighborhood that is slowly being destroyed. Just my rant, take it as you will..

I like it because more people living along McKinney generate the foot traffic supporting a greater variety of retail and entertainment. I do not like it because it removes one of the more interesting store fronts.

I also like the atmosphere from another highrise; aesthetics is such a fleeting thing, but I sure would like to see the strip mall architecture go before any more of the old converted houses and commercial buildings.

de facto banning party bars is really a knee-jerk reaction to a temporary situation that brought too many "frat parties" together. The party bars have a definite roll in Uptown, adding to the scene, but the homogenized bland drunk fest party-party in which the whole point is to see how loud the music gets and f'ed up you can get is pointlessly out of character with a fashionable neighborhood. There's a sweetass playbook to a 'get-f'ed party' that's stylish, creative and more highbrow.... a scene that actually sets a trend rather than follows.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 09:46**

So long as Black Friar remains, I can live with the transition. I remember many times looking across at Idle Rich from Black Friar and realizing how different that place is on the inside from the outside. They did a fair job in making the inside timeless and warm. But truth be told... that building has always been a bit cheap.
Best case scenario, they're able to move to the bottom floor of another midrise and replicate the same feeling they had on the inside. I'd welcome something like Idle Rich along EMC, honestly. I'd be happy to see DTD takeover the 'bar' scene. Better than the 'club' scene that has been tried there so many times unsuccessfully.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 10:55**

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did't Idle Rich use to be a Fuddrucker's back in the day? I will say that places like Idle Rich and Black Friar do have a certain charm and quite a bit more character than The Den, Trophy Room and a few of the others. The owner actually puts a little effort into making the outside look nice.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 11:08**

^hahaha Kelley, I think you're right!! Going back to the early 90s, I don't know that anything really stuck in that place. I went to a Fuddruckers on McKinney during my infancy.... but couldn't tell you if it was in this building for sure. I do remember one restaurant opened here, a little before the time Sambuca moved to McKinney, and my gang wanted to be excited about a new twist coming to the scene on McKinney Avenue, but that place just had a cheap patched-up feel to it that couldn't quite muster even a fun kitschy atmosphere. Food was good but the space was like an itchy undershirt. I'm aware the structure itself has presented problems over the years.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 12:12**

Man, I wish my old photo wasn't so blurry. . . maybe the big hair is to blame.
Anyway, just for fun (1990ish):

https://twitter.com/CTroyMathis/status/ ... 0833064969

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 12:14**

First forum meet back in early 2000s started-out there also. . .

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 12:21**

The Reunion Tower ball is plainly visible in that shot, which I don't think is true today. Now you have to travel past McKinney & Fairmount before you can see it.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 12:50**

It's amazing how McKinney has been canyoned in the past 10 years.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 12:54**

I wish all the best to black friars. I love that place. So many memories there.

IMO, the strip mall in front of the Crescent and the Sun fresh/Central Market store are the single most important lots needing re-dev.

These places have ability to really create a more cohesive environment between LoMac and West Village.

There is also a need to redo the sidewalks near those places. It would be grand to have spacious pedestrian infrastructure along McKinney.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 13:45**

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:There is also a need to redo the sidewalks near those places. It would be grand to have spacious pedestrian infrastructure along McKinney.

Ditto. I wonder if there will one day be an inflection point so that the infrastructure of downtown caters to internal residents and employees rather than shuttling them in and out from surrounding suburbs.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 14:13**

ContriveDallasite wrote:
Tivo_Kenevil wrote:There is also a need to redo the sidewalks near those places. It would be grand to have spacious pedestrian infrastructure along McKinney.

Ditto. I wonder if there will one day be an inflection point so that the infrastructure of downtown caters to internal residents and employees rather than shuttling them in and out from surrounding suburbs.

That's a principal reason why the city is looking to terminate the one-way of McKinney & Cole and turn them into two-way streets. Calms traffic down, thus making it a little more pedestrian friendly.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 14:17**

I agree on the sidewalks along McKinney, although they need to be reworked from downtown to WV which will probably take forever. At least with each new development a little piece gets done.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 14:24**

http://www.jonathandelcambre.com/latest/ogie92mxmom6z6ovbo1l32l62b7qcc

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 14:25**

Much better, like the way it looks.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 15:27**

I smell a rat, asked Kingston about it and he said STAR (State Thomas Area Residents association) and TUNA (The Uptown Neighborhood Association) had both supported the height increase. Talked to city planning and city planning said the groups had signed off on it.

I am a member of both groups and they approached neither of us about it much less had our support. I didn't think so but I confirmed with the people in charge of both groups and not so much as a peep from the developer.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 15:35**

I sure do like that McKinney Ave does not run in a straight line from DT to WV. It creates opportunities for more interesting architecture than just square boxes due to the odd lot shapes.

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 16:16**

JohnMcKee wrote:I smell a rat, asked Kingston about it and he said STAR (State Thomas Area Residents association) and TUNA (The Uptown Neighborhood Association) had both supported the height increase. Talked to city planning and city planning said the groups had signed off on it.

I am a member of both groups and they approached neither of us about it much less had our support. I didn't think so but I confirmed with the people in charge of both groups and not so much as a peep from the developer.

With One Tower across the street I think this height compliments that.

Was there an agreement when One Tower was proposed?

If so, Could that agreement with One Tower (20 stories) have been carried over?

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 21:01**

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
JohnMcKee wrote:I smell a rat, asked Kingston about it and he said STAR (State Thomas Area Residents association) and TUNA (The Uptown Neighborhood Association) had both supported the height increase. Talked to city planning and city planning said the groups had signed off on it.

I am a member of both groups and they approached neither of us about it much less had our support. I didn't think so but I confirmed with the people in charge of both groups and not so much as a peep from the developer.

With One Tower across the street I think this height compliments that.

Was there an agreement when One Tower was proposed?

If so, Could that agreement with One Tower (20 stories) have been carried over?

Posted: **13 Dec 2016 22:53**

That rendering screams "Trader Joe's" for the base.

Posted: **14 Dec 2016 10:43**

Dmkflyer wrote:That rendering screams "Trader Joe's" for the base.

I hope not..(I feel that store is a glorified Save A Lot!!! So overrated.)...With the trader Joe's up on Knox and this locations close proximity to Whole Foods and Sun Fresh I don't a think a grocer makes sense there.

I'd like to see some varied retail. And nice restaurant / bar to replace Idle pub.

Posted: **14 Dec 2016 10:52**

Art Gallery please.

Posted: **14 Dec 2016 11:56**

Tivo_Kenevil wrote:
Dmkflyer wrote:That rendering screams "Trader Joe's" for the base.

I feel that store is a glorified Save A Lot!!! So overrated.

Blasphemy!!! :lol:

Posted: **14 Dec 2016 21:53**

Would they put one so close to Whole Foods and the new Central Market up the street?

Posted: **16 Dec 2016 01:27**

They were between 3 other groceries in East Dallas and were fine.

Posted: **16 Dec 2016 11:36**

Don't forget Tom Thumb will be open by then as well right down the street.

Posted: **16 Dec 2016 11:42**

Well if there is enough demand then good but I do wish there were other kinds of retail and service establishments that would pop up in these spaces.

Posted: **28 Dec 2016 15:11**

This is from their Facebook page:

Thanks for all the calls and messages of support, but the good news is that we are not going anywhere anytime soon. There are some inaccuracies in today's article in the Dallas Morning News. We are definitely here through early 2018, and quite possibly well beyond that. It's too early to say what will happen at this point. We have been touched by the support for the pub, and especially for our staff. Come see us soon!

https://www.facebook.com/IdleRichPub/po ... 9891886709

Who knows how accurate this is. Perhaps they are closing sooner, but they don't want people finding out just yet.

This is the Dallas Morning News article they are referencing:
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/real ... tial-tower

Posted: **01 Mar 2017 17:17**

The joint venture between Mockingbird Venture Partners and M&M Venture that will build a 110-unit residential tower on the site of Idle Rich Pub at 2614 McKinney Ave. will have all underground parking. Stoneleigh Cos. development manager Ryan Swingruber looks to projects like that as the future.

https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-worth/ ... t-worth-re

A little tidbit about the Idle Rich development in this article.

Posted: **02 Mar 2017 09:23**

This is the best pull quote in the article: If true, then the days of companion garages being built with every building in Uptown may be limited.

Crescent Real Estate’s recent McKinney & Olive office tower has 2.75 parking spaces per 1k SF of office, and managing director John Zogg said they struggle to fill it. Tenants at McKinney & Olive take the trolley, Uber and walk.

Read more at: https://www.bisnow.com/dallas-ft-worth/ ... um=Browser

Posted: **02 Mar 2017 14:36**

What is this "struggle" to fill it? Bad choice of words? Like they care about filling it beyond the desire to spend less investment on concrete parking garages. If the office tenants would thoughtfully consider parking when shopping for space but they normally don't make accurate measures of parking needs. There is an assumption calculation that dictates what they require when they sign a lease. No matter if it's located next to a DART station or out in Frisco on the farthest reaches of suburban civilization. I wish it was as easy as a city regulation being the only speed bump. City regulations dictate more issues with retail and residential parking. Commercial is more market driven.

Posted: **02 Mar 2017 15:44**

I assume they charge tenants for parking like many office buildings.

Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum

Uptown Dallas: McKinney/Boll Tower - 2614 McKinney Ave - (18 ST)

Uptown Dallas: McKinney/Boll Tower - 2614 McKinney Ave - (18 ST)

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